Bible Questions & Discussion PAGE 75

Dear Friends in Christ,

I just want to take a moment to say how much I truly enjoy discussing Scripture with all of you. Even when we don't fully agree on certain issues, I value the fellowship and the opportunity to search God's Word together. Each conversation challenges me to think more deeply, to listen with humility, and to grow in knowledge and understanding.

The beauty of our unity in Christ is not that we all see every detail the same way, but that we share the same Lord and Savior who unites us by His Spirit. I'm grateful for the respect and kindness shown in our discussions, and I pray that the Lord continues to sharpen us through His Word.

May the Lord of Glory bless each of you richly in your walk with Him, and may His truth guide us into greater wisdom and love.

In Christ,

L.Booth

Hi Chris,

Beautifully written, thanks.

I think we're pretty close with this one...

Here's my take!

Paul never teaches that believers in the Body of Christ can lose salvation, though some verses are misread that way. For example, 1 Corinthians 9:27 warns of being a "castaway," but Paul is referring to disqualification from reward or service, not loss of eternal life. In Galatians 5:4, "fallen from grace" means leaving the principle of grace for law-keeping, not forfeiting salvation. 2 Corinthians 13:5 calls for self-examination of genuine faith, not teaching that salvation can be undone. Likewise, Colossians 1:23 emphasizes perseverance as evidence of true faith.

In contrast, Paul repeatedly assures believers of eternal security. Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing can separate us from Christ's love. Ephesians 1:13-14 teaches that believers are sealed with the Spirit until redemption. Philippians 1:6 promises that God will complete His saving work. 2 Timothy 1:12 affirms Christ's power to keep what is entrusted to Him. Romans 11:29 states that God's gifts and calling are without repentance.

Thus, the "warning" passages deal with reward, service, and testimony, while Paul's consistent teaching is that salvation itself is secure in Christ.

God Bless.

Hi Free,

Thanks for your feedback.

I believe knowing Who We Are in Christ Matters, it's crucial.

To understand OUR identity in Christ, we must distinguish between God's program for Israel and His program for the Body of Christ. Covenant theology often blends these, spiritualizing Israel's promises and applying them to the Church. Yet God's covenants with Israel are unconditional and tied to their national FUTURE.

Israel was promised land, a throne, and blessing through the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New Covenants ( Gen. 12:1-3; 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Jer. 31:31-34). The prophets foretold Messiah reigning from Jerusalem, with Israel restored as head of the NATIONS ( Isa. 2:1-4; Zech. 14:9,16). These remain unfulfilled and will be realized at Christ's return.

Paul, however, revealed a "mystery" hidden from ages past ( Eph. 3:1-9). The Body of Christ is not Israel, but a new creation with a heavenly destiny. Our blessings are spiritual and heavenly ( Eph. 1:3), our justification is by grace apart from the law ( Rom. 3:28), and we are united to Christ as His Body ( 1 Cor. 12:13). Sealed with the Spirit ( Eph. 1:13), we display God's wisdom in the heavens.

This also explains why Revelation does not address the Body of Christ as so many subscribe too. It only continues Israel's prophetic program: Jacob's trouble ( Jer. 30:7), Daniel's seventieth week ( Dan. 9:24-27), the sealing of Israel's tribes ( Rev. 7), and Messiah's earthly reign ( Rev. 20). Its judgments and kingdom promises fit Israel's covenants, NOT Paul's revelation of grace. The Church, delivered from wrath ( 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), is absent.

Knowing who we are in Christ preserves both Israel's earthly hope and the Church's heavenly calling, magnifying God's faithfulness to Israel and the Body of Christ.

Blessing

Free,

Amen sister-in-Christ. Just got back from vacation in Norway,

Bestrong in the Lord,

Exod.38. 35 "Priestly garments" (4 of 4)

"And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not."

Gospel preaching is a trumpet blasting and it is sustained. So much so people quaked. "And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice."(Exod.19.19) On the

other how does the doctrine of Christ sound? "And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth." ( Lk 4.21) and Moses as the double for the Son testifies, "My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass."(Deut.32.2) The golden bell coupled with pomegrate round about the hem (v.34) makes a circle recalling the word of God,, 'Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.'(Rom.10;18;Isa.55.11) This throws additional significance to the mist mentioned in Gen.2,5-6 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground./But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.." Moses' speech iinspired by the Word that was with God in the beginning knows no time as we make of it. Word of God had foreseen the perfidious heart of the nation of Israel. Thus the Covenant stipulated the role of the fruit-bearing tree with seed in itself,(Gen.1.11) and Jesus tells them,"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word./Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."(Jn.8.43-44) The Law of Moses revolved about the Ten Commandments where the number 10 was set as condemnation. Law of sin and death, 'that he die not." Death is the focus here

Page 3

iv. The graft could be cut off just as the broken (conditional, covenantal) 11:21-22

v. The graft does NOT constitute 'all Israel' (but a part) - 11:24-26

c. Do these details fit: 1) All Gentiles 2) dispensational position, 3) church 4) remnant

i. If we do not fit the context, we must quit forcing ourselves in.

March 2nd, 2025

4. Who Are We

a. Don't fail to appreciate the similarities we have to the graft, though we are not a tree.

b. In some ways we are like the graft BUT in important ways we are not.

c. We are brought together as one,

i. BUT a new creature, mystery body, kept secret - Eph 2:15

d. We are saved by grace and faith,

i. BUT our faith is in the free and finished work, not faith that can be dead.

e. We partake of promises in Christ,

i. BUT we are members of His Body not branches - 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 5:30

f. We ought not boast of our blessings and should do good works,

i. BUT we are complete in Christ not in a covenant - Col 2:10

g. We are Abraham's seed by faith, heirs of promise, ( Gal 3:28)

i. BUT we are put into the fellowship of the mystery of Christ, not Israel's tree.

h. If you still struggle w/graft, know who you are in Christ. Then, you'll know who it isn't.

God Bless

PG 2

e. Much doctrinal confusion come from failing to rightly divide Prophecy and Mystery.

f. Romans 11 is where prophecy and mystery touch (see Rom 11:25-26), but

i. Do we partake of Israel's tree? Do we fit the description of the wild graft?

2. Wild and Broken Israel

a. Israel fell because of unbelief, they rejected Christ - Rom 11:20 (9:32, 10:2-3)

b. Peter speaks of unbelieving Israel and a people coming out of darkness - 1 Pet 2:6-10

c. Hebrews speaks to Israel in disbelief, and a people in the wilderness - Heb 3:12-4:2

d. John spoke of Israel not receiving, but some did receive grace/truth - John 1:11-14

e. Jesus spoke of being the vine, branches abiding in him, others broken - John 15:1-6

f. Jesus said the kingdom would be removed from blind Israel, given to"IMPORTANT" A NATION... Matt 21:33-43

g. Hosea - Israel becomes 'not my people', then receives mercy - Hos 1:9-10

h. Jeremiah wrote of Judah becoming a degenerate plant - Jer 11:16, 2:21

i. Isaiah spoke of God's fruitful plant becoming wild - Isaiah 5:2-4

j. Isaiah also spoke of a root and light coming to Gentiles - Isa 11:10, 42:6, 49:6

k. Ezekiel spoke of grafting branches of Judah and Israel together - Eze 37:16-20

l. Paul spoke already of Israel's two vessels of wrath & remnant - Rom 9:21-24, 11:5-7

m. If you struggle with the New Covenant, Hebrews, John, 'not my people', Calvinism, two

houses of Israel, MMLJ you will end up thinking we are the grafted in branches.

3. Looking Closer at the Graft

a. To get an understanding of the passage, people tend to summarize or tell stories.

i. Jews had God's blessing, but now Gentiles which leads to Israel's salvation.

b. Summarizing is good, unless it overlooks important details.

i. The roots/trees/branches already existed before the graft (prophesied) 11:18

ii. The graft is personal: "and thou" "if thou boast" " fear" - 11:18-19

iii. The graft stands by faith (the same faith that the broken refused) 11:20

see page 3

Hello Chris,

Thank you for your insight into Romans 11. I truly respect your thoughts and opinions on this important passage. However, I believe that scripture must always be interpreted with scripture. When we attempt to understand a passage without looking at supporting verses, it can open the door to missing the true meaning intended by God. For that reason, I am including my Bible Study, which carefully connects Romans 11 with other passages that shed light on its context and meaning. A casual reading of this Bible Study may not provide the clarity needed, but I believe a sincere and patient study-comparing scripture with scripture-makes Romans 11 crystal clear. Please take time to go through it slowly, as I am convinced the Word will speak for itself. Thank you again for sharing your perspective, and may the Lord continue to guide both of us as we seek His truth.

God bless,

1. Partaking of Israel's Promises

a. Romans 11 speaks of Israel's fall, what takes its place, and Israel's fulness.

b. 11:17-24 - pictures this through two olive trees, broken branches, and a wild graft.

c. Since the church exists now, the most popular identification of the graft is you.

d. This is the primary justification for identifying the church as Israel, spiritual Israel, etc.

e. Much doctrinal confusion come from failing to rightly divide Prophecy and Mystery.

f. Romans 11 is where prophecy and mystery touch (see Rom 11:25-26), but

i. Do we partake of Israel's tree? Do we fit the description of the wild graft?

2. Wild and Broken Israel

a. Israel fell because of unbelief, they rejected Christ - Rom 11:20 (9:32, 10:2-3)

b. Peter speaks of unbelieving Israel and a people coming out of darkness - 1 Pet 2:6-10

c. Hebrews speaks to Israel in disbelief, and a people in the wilderness - Heb 3:12-4:2

d. John spoke of Israel not receiving, but some did receive grace/truth - John 1:11-14

see page 2

Greetings

James 2:14-17

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food," "And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Bleesings

Greetings,

Romans 13:9 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

Blessings

Thank you very much, of course "Bennymkje"!

Be strong love u

Hello dear brother in Christ. It's strange that you mention it, and I agree, because I have little or nothing left listening to music or on the radio I can make it up and put it on when I go away so that people outside the house think there are people inside. lol, it may fool some but not all, because the car is gone from the property. Because here a couple of weeks ago I sat with the hymns. And then I felt like trying to sing them in my language. hmmm it became monotonous and without any special sound. But I can imagine and sort of hear David when he clinked his instruments and sang praises to the Lord. So if next time I get a melody and manage to hold it in my heart, maybe I can sing one of the hymns. But it's doubtful.

But what I do know is that He has given me what I call a new song, a song of praise to Him that only He understands. And my voice becomes loud and strong. (And I who barely have the breath to walk 10 meters. My breathing has improved a lot, so thank you for your prayers, I really appreciate it).

It is amazing.

The Holy Spirit is with us no matter the situation, we must believe that. Then we get the help we need. It's easiest to sing this in solitude in the car or at home. I've tried it among people but it becomes incomprehensible to many and then I don't think it's as good. I recommend to all believers to sing to the Lord a new song, it can be a melody, and maybe the words come without you thinking about it, just a dry hum.An old friend of mine, she is with Jesus now. She said that what you sing are secrets to the Lord. And then it is clearly quite incomprehensible to those who are not of God's people. Another thing that is very important is that the secrets can also be a form of spiritual warfare. That it strengthens us in things we are not able to find words for. So here it is not about human wisdom (which is foolishness to God) but simply when we may not have the words of God that we need. The words are opened up to the Lord 1 Cor 10:1-13 Love

Dear "Lbooth1955" You have many fine explanations. But when things get choppy, uncertainty often creeps in, because it's not based on the truth. That's how it is for all of us. Where are the believers in Christ during the great tribulation? And where will we be when God's wrath comes? U dont need to answer. Rev 19:11-16 Is that when you mean Jesus will come and judge the living and the dead? Or where is that stand? There are some truths here in John 12:27-32 and further for those who want 33-36 JESUS SAYS Now the common judgment. So if we put it together with the fact that Jesus' death and resurrection have their own time calculation. Let's say that when He died the 1000 years started. Then it means that today we are still in Christ also with all those who have died in Christ. Anyone who doubts this should read the book of Hebrews carefully. Because you will find favor in the sight of the Lord. And what is written in John here, it may also seem that we live in great peace, compared to previous times, right?

But to go on. You had a question yesterday. If someone thinks that we can do so that we are not worthy to come to God. It can happen. I got words today when I opened the Bible, just for you. 1 Cor 9:27 So we must take up our cross every day, and follow Jesus' pure path. That also means if we sin and repent. Is God's grace greater than human grace. And here a sinner must repent and know that the Spirit of the Lord lives in him. All days until the end of the world! Love you in Christ. Be strong and courageous.

Jesus has said so much Himself. So for us humans and interpreting a vision given to John on Patmos has always been a draw towards the mysterious, we humans love secrets and solving puzzles. But Jesus has said everything that needs to be said. Also His disciples. Then He lets us pray for wisdom and the Spirit of understanding so that we can keep up with the times that are and were and are to come.

Exod.28.34-35 Priestly Garments-3

" A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about."

Recalling an Oscar Hammerstein lyric,'a bell is no bell till you ring it', the golden bell is coupled with a pomegranate to indicate how our walk should be. What we hear instead is Jesus Talk but in terms of works, it is zero. Hypocrisy is abounding but here is a warning to abound in our works. 'Upon the hem of the robe round about makes' a circle, is it not? These circles are repeated in two manners wreaths of gold and rings as in this verse,"And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is in the side of the ephod inward." There are four rings altogether. They signify the four horns of the golden altar, also a square, (Exod.30,1,6;Rev.8.6)

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne./And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand./ And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth." (8.3-5) These rings primarily represent Melchizedek,'Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. "(Heb.7.3).Secondary meaning is the single measurement,"according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel." (Rev.21.17)

Angels of waters, of fire, of wind and of wrath (Rev.14.17-20) another angel is of the Lord "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him" (Exod.23.20-21).because 'my name is in him'

2.'pure gold at the ends; of wreathen work' host of angels (v.14)

As an interesting sidenote; apparently Hillary Clinton said she would recognize our current leader for the Nobel Peace prize if he ends the Ukraine Russia war. We need to pay attention to peace being promised especially if things continue to change for the better in the world at large as a sign to convince the masses to accept the final covenant with many. Israel also is going to have to radically change its position. The situation is interesting in light of what many claim was a genuine sacrifice of the red heifer that was originally designated as a trial run.

I'm taking a brief road trip; should be back Lord willing in a couple days. Lord willing it will be safe. I may check out another church in the rural area I'm staying so I'd appreciate prayers for insight as to whether or not it is a place I can sink roots into or not which I have no doubt the Lord will make clear.

Keep looking up.

Agape; RIch P

The coming of the lawless one

Factors that bring in deception; no doubt are with music as I talked about before as well as world wide media influences with the internet. I mention humanism a lot because it presents an idyllic future for men if we have the mindset that we are capable of a peaceful coexistence. Surely our past history as mankind should shatter any illusion of that fact; and the most recent well known incident of someone promising 1000 years of glorious reign was Hitler under the Third Reich. Under that scenario there was much influence from mysticism and the concept of the master race; today it is considered through New Age that we are about to "evolve" to a more advanced level-no doubt borrowing the more recent concept of a more spontaneous stage when there are quick evolutionary shifts explaining the fossil record. We also need to pay attention to John 5:43 for this "self made" man who comes in his own name; who is promised in the future with the Antichrist beast that Israel for a time accepts. We see this prophecy indicated in Isaiah 10:20 (not the verse I was looking for but another prophetic reference to this individual).

We can't ignore the framework already in place (Abraham accords) to be what is eventually added on to with many nations and confirmed as Daniel 9:27 states. I won't tackle the issues currently there that are making the area a particular hotbed for controversy but will say that the Lord will purify His people in the Tribulation so that they are truly a righteous nation and justified to inherit all the territory promised to them in the original land covenant. They will not come to the Messiah until near the end of the Tribulation as stated in Zechariah and many other scriptures.

I can't dogmatically state this is or isn't the time of the Rapture (Rosh Hashanah). Perhaps it is; as when He does come there may be some warning to those alert and there are some unique time markers.

Editing:

Please read this line which is confusing,"There are colours other than white for righteousness and it is granted for those who are called to be kings and priests"

It is edited as follows:

"There are colours for high priest; but white for righteousness is granted only for those who are called to be kings and priests".

Exod.28 Priestly garments-(2 of 4)

v.2 "And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty."

The office of high priest is representational. There are colours other than white for righteousness and it is granted for those who are called to be kings and priests. " clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."(Rev.19.8) This distinction should be drawn between people washed clean by the blood of the Lamb and those who are yet to be delivered from curse. "And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen/ And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.(V.5-6)

Natural colour of linen falls between beige and ivory. Consequently the colour white must be understood where God has adopted a saint in his Son. Sin of disobedience begun with Adam is compounded by sin against heaven and the ten brethren of Joseph hid their envy and malice from their father. They removed the multicoloured coat of Joseph and soiled it. " And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood."(Gen.37.23,31)

Purple and scarlet must be interpreted in this context. They treated the blood of his Son lightly and by dipping the coat with blood they made light of the righteousness and the father relationship: Israel's love for Joseph was the shadow of heavenly realities.t

Purple lay yet in future: "And they clothed him with purple," ( Mk 15.17) The nation of Israel rejected their king and their great high Priest. (Psa.110.5) Scarlet offered the nation hope."though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow

And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book..../ behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.(Exod,32,33-34)"

In short Aaron was earthy as his priesthood was under the law of sin and death.

Page 2. Lbooth1955.

2 Corinthians 1:21,22: God has established us in Christ, anointed us, as sealed us with the guarantee of the Spirit, and is certainly not going to let us go. Also Ephesians 1:3-14.

Ephesians 2:8,9: it is only by God's Grace, as His Gift, that we are saved. If we are saved any other way, it is according to our way of salvation - not God's, which is endures & secures.

Philippians 1:6: If God has begun His Work in us, we can be confident He will always continue to work in us by His Spirit till the day we see Jesus in His Glory.

Jude 1:24: God alone can keep us from falling & present us faultless when we see Him.

A few verses that should teach us & assure us that the one who is truly is in Christ is truly secure forever. He will neither want to leave this most valuable Holy Faith, nor even be persuaded to do so even under the threat of death - for our lives are new, seated in the heavenly places, no longer of the Earth, hidden with Christ in God.

Hello Lbooth1955. I'll share some Scriptures that show that a true believer, baptized with the Holy Spirit, has been fully redeemed and adopted into the family of God. He can never be un-adopted, nor will he ever desire to depart from his most Holy Faith - for it is not in him to ever to do so, having been forgiven from the weight of sin having no salvation in any other, than Jesus, the Son of God. Sure, there are also as many Scriptures that purportedly show that a believer can lose his salvation, so the matter comes down to: if a 'believer' can decide to shun Christ and His Salvation, he probably came to Christ under his own desire, without the drawing in of the Holy Spirit and the resulting conviction of sin. Anyone who comes to Jesus without a deep sense of being a filthy despicable sinner deserving of nothing but hell and not fleeing to the Cross for forgiveness, cleansing & redemption, has just been fooling himself and very likely attending Church and reading the Bible for reasons other than a deep love, devotion and commitment to living and serving His Lord. That being said, I submit the following few Scriptures as requested (with notes):

John 3:16: God's Promise to save all who come to Him, assuring them of everlasting life.

John 5:24: The one believing in Jesus has everlasting life, without any condemnation or hell.

John 6:37: God makes no mistakes about whom He gives to His Son, and Jesus promises to never let them go.

John 10:27-29: Christ's sheep always hear His Voice and follow Him. Nothing nor anyone can separate the sheep from the Shepherd. If they stray, the Shepherd will draw them back into the fold, for that is the job of the Shepherd.

Romans 8:38,39: if all these things cannot separate us from God's Love in & through His Son, then what is our strength or ability (or even any inclination) to do the job ourselves? To Page 2.

Exod.38:" Priestly garments" (1 of 4)

"And he made the breastplate of cunning work, like the work of the ephod; of gold, blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen./It was foursquare; they made the breastplate double: a span was the length thereof, and a span the breadth thereof, being doubled."(8-9)

the breastplate was doubled to contain Urim and Thummim.. It was square and held in position by chains and rings to the shoulder and below.

Double of the breastplate indicated the office of the high priest was representational. Jesus Christ who is passed into the heavens is the great high priest "Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself."(Heb.4.14; 7.27)

Aaron as a man faced judgment,"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."(Heb.9.27)

Aaron was appointed to this office under the shadow of blessing and curse, which the two onyx stones represented. The lower ends of the breastplate was hooked to the ephod above the curious girdle. Breastplate came above the heart while by two rings and wreaths of gold stopped over the caul and kidneys, indicating the two witnesses that he is natural and earthy."The first man is of the earth,"(1 Cor.15.47) In terms of topography bue expanse of the sky. This iswell illustrated by the inaugural vision of Ezekiel. The living creatures moved simultaneously straight 'they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.'(Ezek.1.9,26) "And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it."

The curious girdle explains,' having your loins girt about with truth', where girt about the loins explain they are angels in service as 'his ministers, flaming fire, (Ps.104.4; Eph.6.14)_

Exod.28.12 "Two stones"

Two stones upon the shoulders serve the same purpose as the mount of Ebal and mount Garizim. Ephod of blue is the firmament or the sky. Breastplate of judgment represents the holy city of God, foursquare with two stones tucked within. They shall when revealed shall be called the light of the Lamb. In the coming days we shall study the relevance in terms of the holy city of God under new heaven and the earth.

Here we have three main divisions. Righteousness of saints is white and not blue as in the ephod. Hence this is a memorial that the high priest must remind the people of th blessing and the curse under which they exist. The breadtplate of judgmentis worn close to the heart and continually;

the three main divisions are given below:

#1" And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones (f memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial."(v.12)

#2"And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it."(v.15)

#4"And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually./And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue."(vv,30-31)

Two stones in vv.0-10 "And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:/Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth" Compare with Gen,2.12

"And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone."

The Spirit sets the four river heads only after the garden of Eden, which is significant. vv.10-14

.

Matthew 7:19 "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

John 5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Blessings

DavidB,

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. My study on the word elect is still a work in progress but I hope to soon be able to share my understanding of those who are called the elect, Lord willing!

God Bless!!!

Hello Ronald,

(Part 1):

Brother, my memory could be failing me, but I thought you didn't believe in a rapture so I was sort of taken aback by your statement saying, "The Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ must be the same event."

I agree that there will be angels coming with the power of God, and they will accompany Christ when He comes back to the earth at His second coming. The scriptures you provided show that, although I'm not sure how Matthew 26:53 fits in there. However, I'm not sure if angels accompanying Christ would rule out the church from coming with Him also.

We have the description of the events of the Second Coming of Christ beginning at Revelation 19:1 and ending at Revelation 22:5. In Chapter 19, we see a marriage feast taking place. Revelation 19:7 says, Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

We know who the Lamb is. But who's His wife that is arrayed in fine linen, clean and white? I say it is the church. We are His bride. Verse 8 says that she (His bride) should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Whoever it is, we are told in Verse 14 that the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. If you are saying that the armies mentioned in Revelation 19:14 are angels, why would they be clothed in fine linen white and clean, the same apparel as the bride in in Revelation 19:8?

We know that angels will be accompanying Christ, but are these angels the ones who are clothed in fine linen, white and clean, or is it the bride that we see up in Verses 7 and 8? Whoever it is, they will be the ones coming with Him and they are the armies we see in Verse 14.

Ronald,

(Part 2):

I see Revelation 19:8 as describing the bride of Christ (the church). And the bride is given fine linen to wear, the same attire spoken of in Verse 14. So, my understanding is that the armies (emphasis on plural) in Verse 14 consists of both angels and saints, with the saints being the ones arrayed in fine linen.

Zechariah 14:5 indicates that when the Lord comes, all the saints will come with Him. In Matthew 24:31, which you referenced, the elect being gathered are the Jews, not the church.

To answer your question asking who they are in Revelation 20:4-6, I would say that they are the ones who were still here after the rapture, and during the tribulation they were persuaded by the angelic preaching of the gospel and the gospel being preached by the 144,000 not to take the mark of the beast. They will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast or taking the mark.

From what I see, Revelation 20:4-6 is not talking about the church. There will be some who will turn to Christ during the tribulation period, and they will be saved.

Anyways, I'm sure we are once again in disagreement on this subject, but it is still nice to be able to share our understanding with each other. May the Lord continue to keep us until the day of redemption, and may He continue to give us a hunger for His word in order that we might grow in His grace and knowledge.

God Bless!!!

Page 2. Lbooth1955.

The (natural) branches (Israel) were broken off because of unbelief, and the other branches (Gentiles) coming from a wild olive tree are graffed in among them (believing Israel). The picture given here are two Olive Trees: the natural good tree, the branches of which are Israel and wild tree are the Gentiles. There's nothing to suggest that the wild tree has become the cast off branches (now becoming a tree) of the good tree.

You believe that these other branches being engrafted into the natural Olive Tree are not Gentiles: "The graft fits a believing remnant (of Israel) within a covenant context, not the mystery Body revealed later." So the question: given how I read this chapter, particularly the verses cited, how can it be possible that Paul is speaking of Israel as coming from a wild Olive Tree when Paul himself is now addressing Gentiles (verse 13) and about the privilege they have in being grafted into that tree & experiencing the richness & blessings of God, which were taken away from unbelieving Israel? Thank you.

Thank you Lbooth1955 for your understanding of this passage. This of course intrigued me, to the point that I had to re-visit the chapter to learn more. Also, I went through all the Scriptures you cited, but I found that as I read the chapter again (through your lens), it still did not make sense. And here's why:

Romans 11:1-11 is clearly about Israel. Then verse 12, "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (those who would believe of Jew & Gentile), and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness?



Then in Romans 11:12, Paul introduces the position of the Gentiles in all this. How would the Gentiles benefit from Israel's fall (or temporary blindness)? And if Israel should come, in fullness, into the proper position & relationship to God, how much more the Gentiles' fullness? There could be several thoughts on this last part, but I think that when the fullness of Israel is realized, the richness & beauty of Christ's Church will be made complete. Till now, it is still fragmented (some of Israel saved now and in the Body, others through unbelief, cast off but still to come in when they understand and believe).

And here is where I see Paul taking on a new focus. He's left off the sad situation of Israel, and introduced Gentiles into the picture. As he says clearly in verse 13, "For I speak to YOU Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office". Then going onto verse 16, 'if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump - if the root is holy, so are the branches' and verse 17: "And if some of the branches (Israel) be broken off, and thou (the Gentile Paul is now speaking to from v13), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree". To Page 2.

To all that be in Christ,

My understanding of the Endtimes...

RAPTURE - Christ Comes for His Church

Purpose: Remove the Body of Christ before God's wrath ( 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9), unite all Church-age believers with Christ in heaven ( John 14:1-3), and complete the "mystery" program revealed to Paul but hidden in the OT ( Eph. 3:1-11).

Timing: Before the seven-year Tribulation (pre-trib view). No prophetic signs must occur first; it is imminent ( Titus 2:13).

Nature: Sudden, supernatural, without visible cosmic signs.

Christ descends into the air, not to earth. Believers' bodies instantly transformed ( 1 Cor. 15:51-52). Dead and living saints caught up together to meet Him ( 1 Thess. 4:16-17).

Participants: Exclusively the Church - those "in Christ" from Pentecost to the Rapture.

Aftermath: Church in heaven; world enters Tribulation ( Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6-18). God's focus returns to Israel's prophetic program ( Rom. 11:25-27).

SECOND COMING - Christ Comes with His Saints

Purpose: Judge nations ( Matt. 25:31-46), deliver Israel from her enemies ( Zech. 12:9-10; 14:3-4), and establish the Millennial

Kingdom ( Rev. 20:1-6).

Timing: After the Tribulation ( Matt. 24:29-30). Preceded by clear signs - cosmic disturbances ( Matt. 24:29), Antichrist revealed ( 2 Thess. 2:3-4), global judgments ( Rev. 6-18).

Nature: Public, visible to all ( Rev. 1:7). Christ descends to the Mount of Olives ( Zech. 14:4) with heaven's armies to defeat His enemies ( Rev. 19:15-21).

Participants: Christ, angels, and all raptured saints return ( Rev. 19:14). Survivors of the Tribulation, believing and unbelieving, are judged.

Aftermath: Satan bound 1,000 years ( Rev. 20:1-3). Christ reigns from Jerusalem ( Isa. 2:2-4; Mic. 4:1-3). Israel restored to her land in peace and blessing ( Ezek. 37:21-28).

God Bless!

Brother Ronald.

I agree it does sound like a stretch that is why I presented it as another argument I've heard.

but I'm not sure it's correct but on the surface it's interesting.

This was an attempt to consider and explain both views where the scriptures you presented says Angels and the other says Saints.

That would be more reasonable to leave one or the other out as you did.

Ronald how about letting me catch up on what was presented so far there's a lot of scripture to go through and I haven't had time to read half of it.

My apologies for getting off track.

I will give my approach and way of interpreting scripture and why I hold to the view I do

Blessings