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If pretrib believers be correct, then those of us that believe Jesus returns in the clouds "after"the tribulation..it would be a nice surprise. However, should post trib believers be correct, then pretrib believers will be caught off guard, possibly being deceived by the anti christ, and/ or being unprepared, will suffer great consequence.
Read Matthew 24. And specifically verses 29-30. These are Jesus' very words when asked about the end times. He specifically says that AFTER the tribulation the sun and moon are darkened and that the son of man appears coming in the clouds.
No where does the Bible say that the elect (believers or the saved) will not suffer tribulation. In fact it tells us that the elect WILL suffer tribulation verse 9. Do not mistake or confuse "tribulation"with "Gods wrath". They are not the same.
Jimbob explains it well. And I agree pretrib is one of the greatest deceptions of our times.
Gods Word is True, Jesus is the Truth
Your thinking is from a human perspective,not from GOD's perspective. JESUS said: Luke 21:24-And they(the Jews-Israel)shall fall by the edge of the sword,and shall be led away captive into all nations(this part of the verse literally fulfilled against Israel, from 70 to 1948, 1878 years of severe curses and punishments,and plagues- Deuteronomy 28:15-63):and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles(this part of prophecy will literally fulfill in days to come,also according to the Revelation 11:2)until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:15 -When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet( Daniel 12:6-12),stand in the holy place,(whoso readeth,let him understand)
Daniel 12:6-12
6And one said to the man clothed in linen,which was upon the waters of the river,How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7And I heard the man clothed in linen,which was upon the waters of the river,when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven,and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time,times,and an half;and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,all these things shall be finished.
8And I heard,but I understood not:then said I,O my Lord,what shall be the end of these things?
9And he said,Go thy way,Daniel:for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the END.
10Many shall be PURIFIED,and made WHITE,and TRIED;but the wicked shall do wickedly:and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away (Jesus' sacrifice has already lasted 738,300 days,and now will be taken away),and the abomination that maketh desolate set up(in the midst of the last week of years),there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.(END of this current world of Devil)
12Blessed is he that waiteth,and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
One is not spiritually saved, one is physically save.
Your saved from DEATH, the gift of God is eternal (IMMORTAL) LIFE.
1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY hath IMMORTAL LIFE----your physically married (made ONE) with Christ.
God BLESS YOU!
You are correct, there is no 7 year great tribulation; the word does tell us, the great tribulation lasted from the time Christ entered the garden till he DIED on the cross.
God Bless YOU!
Christ has already come the second time, as a thief in the night, you don't see the thief?
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered for the SINS of many, and to those who look for him he shall APPEAR THE SECOND TIME without SIN unto SALVATION.
John 16:7 For I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter WILL NOT COME unto you, but if I depart, I will sent him to you.
John 15:26 ....but when the Comforter IS COME ....... even the SPIRIT of TRUTH ..... he will testify of me ......
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ..... Christ ON YOU ......
God Bless YOU!
I am just a voice crying out in the wilderness... A conscience if you will. Letting people know to prepare for judgment. For it will start in the house of God. A lot of people in the Church "think they are saved." So great is Satan's power of deception that the tares truly suppose themselves to be Children of the kingdom!
Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves"
2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I can't tell you the enormous amounts of pushback I get from both "Christian" men and women on Ephesians 5 and even more pushback on 1 Corinthians 11 "head coverings during corporate worship whenever I bring it up.
Usually, the go-to scripture for these feminist Christians is Galatians 3:28.
Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; TEST yourselves."
2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I discussed the other day about the Rosh Hashanah last trump concept that made it plausible that the Rapture would be this weekend. Clearly it went by again with no Rapture.
When we look at various events in scripture; we see the surprise element. Surely those watchmen who are asleep or not preparing others will be surprised when He comes (as many will be watching on high holidays such as this and Pentecost).
( Luke 12:35-40). The enemy camp is taken easiest this way in a successful ambush. Watching and waiting with patience is more than a one or two day spectator sport. It does seem that SOME warning comes before the bridegroom arrives ( Matt. 25:6); although some say this is deliverance perhaps before the second coming or even the midpoint of the Tribulation for the Jews or those on earth at that time. In any event; the idea that the Lord delays His coming brings laziness and sin ( Matthew 24:48-51) and results it appears becoming a statistic stuck in the Tribulation at best in verse 51 if not lost forever.
I am a Pre Trib person because it seems clear to me DECADES ago the enemy could have taken over the whole world and certainly we are on "borrowed time" today; the "restrainer" in 2 Thess. 2:6 has to be the Spirit working through the church.
The fact that only a few are really living fully surrendered today shows why in large part the salt and light has reduced to allow the level of ecil we see widespread today. This is in the world as expected but in the Laodicean church that typifies Western churches and that of many other countries in the world today.
Let us continue to warn others to flee the wrath to come ( Luke 3:7); whether it be imminent unexpected death or being stuck in the Tribulation. Remember that Christ comes as a thief to take His precious treasure ( 1 Thess. 5:2; Malachi 3:17). A thief such as this doesn't care about the profane; just the sacred objects of His affection.
Agape.
GBU.
Thank you for your response, your words of encouragement mean a lot to me, as well all the relevant scripture regarding worshiping God in Spirit and Truth, and overcoming sin. I agree with all, and if we our honest with ourselves and take the time to evaluate our true walk with Christ we should be conforming to the scripture you mentioned such as 2 Corinthians 5:17 and 1 John 1:5-6 and if born again should have a mind like Christ 1 Corinthians 2:16
Scripture tells us we can have a mind like Christ! Not conformed to this world, but have renewed minds, and prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God Romans 12:2 Sinning is not acceptable to God, and for Christians to maintain the steady drum beat that they can't stop sinning is unbelievable per all of the scripture telling us that we are required STOP sinning, even including Jesus telling us that with Faith nothing is impossible for us! Matt 17:20
We are supposed to be as HOLY as Jesus and walk like him.Through the Spirit of God we CAN stop sinning. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:6 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12:50 The Bible emphasises several times that we are supposed to be holy:Ye shall be holy: for I theLordyour God am holy. Leviticus 19:2
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48 Frankie, I think we can both agree that being perfect is without sin. But the multitude of worldly Christains say they can't ever be perfect and will always be sinners in this life - so they are saying Jesus/God is lying in Matt 5:48 and they are not accepting this Truth!
GBU
Paul Apostle in his wisdom, wrote :1 Corintians 2:7-10
7 But we speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him.
10 But GOD hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD. (Even the hidden wisdom and mystery of His Plan of restitution of all things,the Genesis,describing His works of restoration of creation - Acts 3:18-24. As JESUS said when He came in the fourth Day: My Father worketh hitherto, and I work- John 5:17,(in fulfillment of Genesis 1:26: Let us make man in OUR image, after our likeness:... JESUS being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD's PERSON... Hebrews 1:3
God bless
Recently; one of our laypersons who is a relatively new attendee of our church boldly asked some musicians "when are you going to play Christian music?" These musicians were supposedly part of a worship team in another church and were so insulted by that they decided not to show up at the next event they were invited to.
I bring this up to show how crucial it is for us to have a jealousy for God; and also to bring up the point that if our Pastor was more concerned about his reputation than he health of his congregation he wouldn't have brought it up himself; or apologized for the last time I walked out of a concert as for the quality of the message in the music. Personally I think he needs to fire the guy who is directing the decisions of bands invited for social events. My point here is that in many lukewarm churches no one would really care very much about these issues. Therefore in my situation since the preaching is of sound doctrine I am working through issues such as weakness in significant prayer; worldliness and other issues rather than bailing out for another church. I have seen the commitment people have to handing out Gospel literature; visiting the elderly and in visiting me in the hospital after I had an extended stay recently. There have been small groups where deep discussion on doctrinal matters are hashed out; seeing genuine commitment to the Lord.
We all need to examine things as to where God wants us to fellowship and if we see doctrinal error especially we need to take take time for prayer and if possible challenge those in leadership first. Then we should leave if the Lord makes it clear things are not changing; and bring others out possibly starting our own Bible Study or prayer group until someone finds a good church home. These things are always better when others are with us to help us find an new church home.
You all know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea,and walk through a desert,walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of peregrination/pilgrimage.What about GOD's people now, even in this current time?
Now GOD's people,members of Christ's body,will have to go through (I mean win a war)against the Red Dragon,that's exactly it,a Red Dragon yes, this is no coincidence,it was predicted millennia ago. He's a false messiah who will soon manifest,just ahead,with great signs of lying,he will manifest in Israel as a lamb with two horns,he's a Jew,of course,and he will speak like a Dragon. Revelation 12.3-17 and Revelation 13:11-18.
Let's get ready to go through this not easy FINAL journey of GOD's people here until the glorious,marvelous,and day of exceedingly joy - day 1335.Remembering and understanding that the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt was not without first having taken place a battle against Pharaoh(by the way,there and now is the same,it's Satan himself),and when the march began for the departure of GOD's people from Egypt,then the enemy army persecuted the Hebrews,the same will happen now,initially the persecution will be by the man Beast of the sea,it is he who will first persecute the Christian believers- Revelation 13:5-for 42 months,that is the first half of the last week,the week 70th Dan.9:27.This POINT is only and only the half of the way-3,5 years or 42 months,the GOD's people will need to march more 3,5 years,so the march will last 7 years,it will not be easy this journey of course.
Again: Let's get ready to go through this not easy FINAL journey of GOD's people here until the glorious, marvelous,and day of exceendigly joy-day 1335.Amen
JESUS in His prayer to the Father, said: Jn 17:15-I pray not that thou take them out of the world,but that thou keep them from the evil.
Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth.Mat.5:5
Get ready, yeah, get ready.
>The word of God cuts both ways, a two edged sword.
>How many husbands love their wives as CHRIST loves the church ..... probably NONE.
>The word says you are the WIFE of Christ, so these scripture of a wife submitting to her
>HUSBAND apply as much to you as to any earthly wife.
Your original meaning and intent were clear. You obviously meant that by presenting Christian women with the need to submit, then the "husband" is in the corporate body hence he is metaphorically described as the bride and the wife now places him in the position to submit as does the wife in the marriage relationship. That is against the divine order found in 1 Corinthians 11:3 and contrary to what Ephesians 5 is even stating. What you were attempting to do was blasphemous!
Even though the corporate body of believers, is metaphorically described as the "bride" or "wife" of Christ to symbolize our deep spiritual union and devotion to Him, this metaphor DOES NOT extend or CONTRADICT the commands regarding marital roles. The submission of wives to husbands and the love of husbands for their wives, as described in Ephesians 5, are SPECIFIC instructions for how husbands and wives should relate to each other within the marriage covenant.
Our spiritual relationship with Christ is indeed a profound and personal one, characterized by faith, love, and devotion, but it doesn't prescribe the same roles and dynamics as those within a marital relationship. Therefore, while we are spiritually connected to Christ as His followers, the commands related to marital roles are distinct and apply within the context of marriage, as outlined in Ephesians 5:22-25.
It's essential to interpret and apply biblical principles in their intended context. Ephesians 5:22-25 addresses the ROLES and RESPONSIBIlITIES of husbands and wives within marriage, using the metaphor of Christ and the Church to illustrate these roles, but this metaphor doesn't change the specific commands for marital relationships.
You do greatly error in the Truth
This is profession without possession, God's see us as we are.
go to your letter learning books & see what perfect is define as
& here's one for you Matt 5:48
complete, perfect, mature
From telos; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ho) completeness -- of full age, man, perfect.
There's not a different standard of holiness stated here, for God & mankind, it's as our heavenly Father is perfect!
Our Standard has been lifted up, lets pick up our cross & follow our victorious Captian Christ Jesus
I will give witness my friends,
that the journey is very long, difficult & laiden with many snares of the enemy within & without; the pathway is very straight indeed. Psalms 23:4 His promise to me years ago Isa 42:16 & he has been faithfully faithful to Himself & me
I see the Light at the end of the tunnel, I'm even at the door! All I need do is to continue to love Him fervently & my neigbor as myself, & do unto to other what I would have done unto me.
Through all the very difficult hardships, I can in simplicity of heart say I would not change one thing, for in the very firey trials of my faith, I came to know Him, which make it more precious than silver or gold. I can see as press on to the higher calling of perfection, these experiences with Him will continue to increase though they will be a change of reasons 2Cor 6:6-10 & become more precious that life itself.
Friends, pick up the Cross-the Grace of God that appears in your heart, it is indeed He, the Emmanuel of God who is within you
speaking ever so softly in motions of love, kindness, rebukes & corrections all things that pertain to life & godliness.
Friends, love Truth
You are deceived if you think, Christ and his wife IS NOT a PHYSICAL marriage.
Did Christ leave this earth in a PHYSICAL body, those married to him, LIVE in that same body, made ONE by his RESURRECTION.
God Bless YOU!
So here we are in the present 2023, we have our current state of affairs, with new modern bible perversions, churches with female pastors/bishops, homosexual pastors, churches consecrating same-sex marriages, feminist-influenced congregations that no longer teach Ephesians 5 wives submitting toward their husband, 1 Corinthians 11 head coverings for women during corporate worship, and the further watering down of the Word of God to please the masses by the clergy.... 2 Timothy 4:3 (KJV) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Many churches have fallen into a state of apostasy... We are in a very sad state of affairs in today's Christendom.
So yes in my humble opinion, the churches today are out of order and that is why judgment starts in the house of God.
1 Peter 4:17 (KJV) 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
GBU
Jonah ran from God
Peter was quick to anger
David committed fornication
Noah got drunk
Thomas was a doubter
Abraham was old
Lazarus was DEAD!
God uses whom He chooses.....
Romans 9:15-18-King James Version
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
The Father ONLY sees the COMPLETED works of Christ and his cross.
He has SENT his WORD, the Spirit of truth, so creation can also SEE what OUR Father sees, the COMPLETED works of the cross of Christ, HAVING RECONCILED the world to himself.
Jesus said go and tell John, the lame walk, the blind see and the dead are raised.
We see NOT YET, all things put under him, because in this age he is is ONLY calling out a PREISTHOOD, the image of HIMSELF, to judge the world with him.
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when THY JUDGEMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS .......
Proverbs 16:6 By MERCY (of God) and TRUTH (of God) INIQUITY is purged.....
Psalms 148:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this HONOUR hath all his saints.
God Bless YOU!
God Bless YOU!
I've enjoyed reading your posts even though our views don't always agree they are always grounded in sound biblical doctrine. I can tell you are a true child of the light. I can't say that about everyone here.
Psalms 104:24 O Lord, how manifold are THY WORKS, in wisdom that thou MADE THEM ALL: the earth is full of THY riches.
Psalms 104:25 So is this great and wide sea (of humanity), wherein are things creeping inumberal, both small and great BEAST.
Psalms 104:26 There go the ships (all people): there is THAT LEVIATHAN (the carnal mind) made (by God) to PLAY THEREIN (the people).
Psalms 104:27 THESE (all people) all wait upon thee, that thou mayest GIVE THEM their meat in DUE SEASON.
Psalms 107:8 Oh that man would praise the Lord for his goodness, for his WONDERFUL WORKS to the children of men.
God Bless YOU!
Judas Iscariot the thief and betrayer of Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:19 (KJV) 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:19 These false teachers were professing Christians who once associated with the apostles. However, in heart they were not really one with true believers, and they showed this by going out from the fellowship. If they had been of us, they would have continued with us. Here we learn that true faith always has the quality of permanence. If a man has really been born again, he will go on for the Lord. It does not mean that we are saved by enduring to the end, but rather that those who endure to the end are really saved. The false teachers went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
> Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy thy sons (both men and women) >MARRY THEE
Isaiah 62:5 (KJV) For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Isaiah 62:5 is indeed a poetic and metaphorical passage that compares the relationship between God and the people of Israel to that of a young man marrying a virgin and a bridegroom rejoicing over the bride. It emphasizes the joy and love that God has for His people. This passage is often cited to illustrate the intimate and loving nature of the relationship between God and His people.
However, it's important to note that this passage, like many in the Bible, is metaphorical and symbolic in nature. It uses the imagery of a marital relationship to convey the idea of God's deep love and care for His people. It is not meant to be taken as a direct instruction for individuals to view themselves as the "wife of Christ" in the same way that human marriages are understood.
> Rev 21:9 .... I will show you the bride (both men and women), the Lamb's WIFE .......
Revelation 21:9 uses metaphorical language, likening believers to Christ's bride to convey a close spiritual relationship, not a literal marriage. Not to be used in support of Ephesians
>Repent means to change ones BELIEFS.
One may ask for forgiveness from sin and obtain it, but that doesn't mean they truly repented from that sin. TRUE repentance is like a burning house you don't go back to it!
Please don't insinuate I need to "repent" as I am not the one who wrote blasphemous statements such as the one below in your original post below.
Jorydn wrote:
>The word of God cuts both ways, a two edged sword.
>How many husbands love their wives as CHRIST loves the church ..... probably NONE.
>The word says you are the WIFE of Christ, so these scripture of a wife submitting to her >HUSBAND apply as much to you as to any earthly wife.
1Pet 4:1
we must be still in our mortal flesh, to suffer in the flesh, & to cease from sin
its the working of Grace / Cross in denying ungodliness & worldly lust that the carnal minded, which is in enmity against God that must be crucify & the learning of righteousness is the suffering described here,
As we continue in well doing, ever increasing in the measure of His Spirit
we come to Psalms 40:8
I spoke to Chris once about this, but it's worth saying it again, my present measure is in the state of man before he fell, yet still capable of falling, & I have ! I found that in humility, 'Truth in the inward parts" & confessing the least motions of His convictions within my conscience is the key to growing in Grace. I learn to love it when He nails me, its His judgment of lovingkindness drawing me closer to Him, instilling in me the fear of the Lord & by continuing in this state of brokeness I receive strenght to overcome all the wiles of the devil, thus far 1 Thessalonians 5:24
What God requires is that we walk according to the Truth that we know, as we abide in it, it cleanses us through the continuing exercising of the Grace received, once we mature in that present measure, God gives the increase & the process of sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & Sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus within us increases, until that final day of Luke 3:16,17 refer to Rom 6:3-5 2Pet 1:19 "not I, but Christ
Folks, awake to Righteousness & Christ will give you Life
with all that be open on the subject, those who willful choose not to believe, will have no excuse when they stand before a Holy Holy Holy God to give an account of the Light that's has been reveal to them, folks please consider.
Another thought, in light of the whole of Scriptures, only the devil influnence upon mankind would plead to remain in unbelief & sin, this doctrine come only from Rev 17:5
"In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth." Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of GOD(the Word is GOD, self-executing), so that things which are seen WERE NOT MADE of things which do appear.
In the beginning-in JESUS- GOD the Father created the 1st,2nd,and 3rd heavens(this is the next to be established- Luke 20:35-36, combined with 2Corinthians 12:1-4, and Revelation 11:15-18), and the heaven of the heavens. By the way, "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the Day of Judgment (this Day arrived, that is the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium) and perdition of ungodly men. NOTE: The heavens which will be burned from now on is the 1st and 2nd heavens, the 3rd will be established, and "unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath"- Matthew 25:29.
Furthermore, GOD revealed the creation to Moses around 2.500 years after Adam or 1500 years BC. JESUS, the Greater Light- Genesis 1:16- came in the fourth Day, around 4.000 years after Adam. John 5:17 - JESUS said: My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. According Chistian calendar from JESUS until the present time passed more around 2.000 years, so we are living in the beginning of first century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day, the LORD's Day. Therefore, GOD RESTS DOWN FROM HIS WORKS FROM NOW ON.
"In the beginning-IN JESUS- GOD -the Father - created the heaven(s) and the earth - earth here is Israel, still in the embryo, and not the planet Earth where GOD sits Himself - Isaiah 40- ,for Israel as a nation was created around 2500 years after Adam.
John 1:3-5
The light shineth in darkness;and the darkness comprehended it not. All things were made by JESUS; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.