Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 177

Dear Steven, you are forgiven.

I like to think the best of others and that is why I addressed to you what I thought was mistreatment because it is easy for one to not recognize one's behavior as wrong until it is pointed out. That is what I thought was the case with you, and so I pointed it out, not to be harsh, but to do so out of love. I appreciate what we have built over the past year and a half. With any relationship, we err and so we apologize and forgive one another because we value each other and desire for our relationship to be holy.

So, Steven, thanks for the apology and know that I forgave you way back then. I look forward to conversing with you on here. And please, let me know if you think I am mistreating you or anyone else with my words. I would want to know, since it is so easy to be blinded to our own failings.

It seems that you have been very busy with work, so I am thankful when you do join the conversation here. How great it will be when we all meet after all is said and done!

Hi S Spencer,

Where is everybody, this is not just about man or no one or anything, it is every created being that God has created, only the Son of God the Lamb slain, who lived a perfect life and was obedient to the Father unto death on the cross was worthy to open the book or even to look on it.

Oudeis eliminates all there is, nothing living in heaven or earth or under the earth could even look on the book must less open it. It is not limited to man it is every created being including every angelic being. This does not have anything to do with man being in heaven it is telling us Jesus the Son of God is the only one who is worthy to even touch the book.

In love, God bless,

RLW

Jcubria

The scripture below is truth, and it convicts all those that believe as you.

1 John 2: "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Jesus spoke to apostle John in this verse above in Revelation 22:14 approximately 60 years after His death on the cross, and about 18 years after apostle Pauls death. Jesus knew what Paul preached, and he preached the same gospel as Christ! Paul did not cancel any of God's commandments, he and all of the apostles followed them during their lives. Do you really believe you are favored over and above Christ and His apostles, they followed the Commandments but now you and others today feel you don't have to. Really.

Lastly, I do not believe we can continue this discussion as your beliefs conflict with the scripture, and your popular modern day take on salvation 2Tim 4:3 is only deceiving to those that are not living in God's Spirit. 1 John 3:24 God's Salvation is not a buffet to pick and choose what scripture that you believe, and what scripture you will ignore!

I pray that God's Spirit will eventually convict you, and some others here, to actually pick up your cross and follow Christ, which will result in obedience, and a desire to follow Gods Commandments, and turn away from this sinful and deceived world. Matt 16:24

Dan

Yes , JESUS said about His commandments: What are them?

How to reconcile these four passages in light of the scriptures you have presented? 1 Corinthians 7:19 , Rev 12:17 , Rev 14:12 , Rev 22:14?... either the bible is full of contradictions or there is misunderstanding of biblical text. btw, Constantine passed a Sunday law in 321 A.D.

There certainly is a literal "hell", and the punishment will be eternal. When you are eventually burned up and cease to exist there will be no coming back. Mal 4:1,3. How else will there be "degrees" of punishment? Matthew 10:15, Matthew 11:22. It says in Ezekiel, the soul that sins shall die.

I do understand from Job 1:19, that all who were in the brother's house (v13) enjoying their feast of food & drink, were destroyed when the wind smote that place. Of course, if only the young men were in the house & Job's daughters were not seated with them, then maybe the caving in of the house did not affect them. But Job 42:12,13 tells us that the LORD blessed Job with even more animals, replacing all that were destroyed, as well as giving him seven sons & three daughters which he had lost ( Job 1:2).

Hi Brother Ronald.

You said oudeis could mean no man, but a better meaning or translation is no one,

If we applied the Greek meaning of the word oudeis as you say it would read; " No man or no one in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

It doesn't change anything!

The emphasis is where John looked.

If it means nobody was in heaven then you would have to say nobody was on earth and nobody was under the earth as well.

So where is everybody?

John looked in the three places where men are present.

If they are only on earth and under the earth, John should have left heaven out all together.

I'm convinced where Jesus will be we will be with him also. John 14:3.

God bless.

Chris,

If I may quote you:

"For me, even if there's no other Scripture that speaks of such an environment existing (for then the writer must have either gone there himself or had an explicit instruction from God to proclaim it), then even that one verse that speaks of it must at least cause the reader to consider the Truth & reality of it."

One basic and fundamental characteristic of the Bible, of which I have become convinced, is this:

God does not build our understanding of a doctrine from a single passage or two. God builds our understanding of any Truth in many ways and from many different vantage points throughout the Bible; but always coalescing on the same Truth. And when we have come to Truth, we will find harmony and conformation of that Truth throughout the entire Bible in many many passages.

Why? Because the Bible has ONLY ONE AUTHOR, God Himself. And we MUST compare Scripture with Scripture, using the principles that God Himself has laid down in His Word.

If we fail to do this and do not allow the Bible, the Entire Bible, to be its own interpreter and it's own dictionary and our ultimate authority, we can pretty much go off in any direction that suites our fancy and find a verse or two here or there to support our belief.

Unfortunately, the Churches and many Bible Teachers throughout the Church Age have done exactly that. Which is the primary reason that we see so great divergence in fundamental doctrines held by churches and individuals in our day.

Amen Brother Chris.

Well spoken, There's to many scripture one would have to ignore to say a literal hell as a place of torment doesn't exist.

God bless you and all you do Brother.

Thank you brother Chris for your truly spirit-filled post to the thread! Your exegesis on the subject was spot on!

You wrote "However, I'm not certain that the "majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life". From my experience, I've learned that many don't correctly understand this Truth."

Sadly, I am coming to the conclusion that you are correct on this point. :(

May the Blessing of the Lord rest upon you!

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 (AMP)

7Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the Law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away,

8Why should not the dispensation of the Spirit [this spiritual ministry whose task it is to cause men to obtain and be governed by the Holy Spirit] be attended with much greater and more splendid glory?

9For if the service that condemns [the ministration of doom] had glory, how infinitely more abounding in splendor and glory must be the service that makes righteous [the ministry that produces and fosters righteous living and right standing with God]!

10Indeed, in view of this fact, what once had splendor [the glory of the Law in the face of Moses] has come to have no splendor at all, because of the overwhelming glory that exceeds and excels it [the glory of the Gospel in the face of Jesus Christ].

11For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!

And what is it but the Galatian heresy when believers are warned that they must keep the Sabbath if they are to be saved at last?

How do they dare to do this in the light of Paul's clear teaching that the Christian is dead to the law? How do they get around the plain statements of Galatians? The answer is that they make a sharp distinction between the MORAL LAW and the CEREMONIAL LAW. The moral law is the Ten Commandments. The ceremonial law covers the other regulations given by God, such as rules concerning unclean foods, leprosy, offerings to God, and so forth.

The moral law, they say, has never been revoked. It is an expression of God's eternal truth. To commit idolatry, murder, or adultery will always be contrary to God's law. The ceremonial law, however, has been done away in Christ. Therefore, they conclude, when Paul teaches that the Christian is dead to the law, he is speaking about the ceremonial law and not the Ten Commandments.

Since the moral law is still in effect, Christians are bound to keep it, they insist. This means that they must keep the Sabbath, that they must do no work on that day. They assert that one of the popes of the Roman Catholic Church ordered the change from Sabbath-obser vance to observance of Sunday, in utter violation of Scriptures.

This reasoning sounds very logical and appealing. However, its great condemning feature is that it is entirely contrary to God's word! Note the following points:

1. In 2Co 3:7-11, the Ten Commandments are definitely stated to be "done away" for the believer in Christ. In verse 7, the law is described as "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones." This could only mean the moral law, not the ceremonial law. Only the Ten Commandments were engraved in stones by the finger of God ( Ex 31:18). In verse 11, we read that the ministry of death, though glorious, is done away. Nothing could be more decisive than this. The Sabbath has no claim on the Christian.

Did Job daughters die when their brothers house was destroyed with them in Job 1?

Thank you Jcubria, you have explained this very important teaching very well. My regular 'go to' verses are Romans 8:1-4, which in fact should fully convince us of the abrogation of the old Law given solely to Israel, which they not only couldn't fully meet its demands, but only showed them their sinfulness & led them to death ( Romans 7:7-11). That Law could never give Life. Life can only be found in Christ & obedience to His Spirit. The Old Law required rigid obedience or suffer, but the workings of Holy Spirit in the regenerated heart now gives life, liberty, & power to obey & serve, & these remain diametrically opposed to each other. Israel of old never received the Holy Spirit to enable them to correctly obey God, hence the need for the myriad of sacrifices to avert His Wrath upon them. But Jesus was the one and only Sacrifice whereby the sinner is released from the Law & its penalties, removed from God's Condemnation, & eternal damnation & death no longer his prospect, and enables him to obey the righteousness contained within God's Holy Demands.

As the Apostle Paul stated in Romans 7:6, "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter", we see his affirmation of the futility of the Law when compared to the glory & permanence of life in obedience to the Holy Spirit. The Decalogue was simply a snapshot of some of God's Holy Requirements, & even in this short set of Commands, Israel failed miserably. But the Law given & empowered by the Spirit embraces all of God's Requirements, searching every area of a believer's heart & life, revealing sin & shortcomings, but enabling him to live unto God & not to the letter of the Law.

However, I'm not certain that the "majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life". From my experience, I've learned that many don't correctly understand this Truth.

Hi S Spencer,

I know you are at work, and you don't even have to reply. I know we can have civil conversations without insulting each other knowing we love the word of God. Just a thought on Revelation 5:3-4 the word here for man in these two verses, oudeis could mean no man, but a better meaning or translation is no one, nothing, it rules out anything but Christ the Lamb of God. The Greek word anthrpos is a word just for man one of the human race. I feel if it was saying a man was in heaven the word anthrpos would have been used, this does not show me a man was in heaven.

Have a good week and God bless,

RLW

It's quite obvious in Col 2:16 Paul was referring to the "ceremonial" sabbaths.. (Law of Moses).. because in 1 Cor 7:19, he states, "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the "Commandments of God". If not, that would be a contradiction, and we know that can't be. The "Moral Law" was written on stone by the hand of Almighty God and placed in the Ark of the Covenant. The Mosaic law (that Christ fulfilled and nailed to the cross) was placed on the side of the Ark.

Are the "commandments" you are referring to the Old Testament laws, especially the Ten Commandments, or are they commands or charges given by Christ?

The book of Galatians addressed this legalism, and one might conclude that Paul defeated the teachers of legalism so effectively that the issue would never trouble the church again. History and experience prove otherwise! Legalism has become so important a part of Christendom that most people believe that it actually belongs.

Let's examine them one at a time. In regards to 1 John 2:4

Those who understand "knowing" in reference to salvation insist that assurance of salvation comes by obeying either the Old Testament laws or the commands of Christ in the New Testament. Those of the Reformed covenant persuasion generally see commandments as referring to the Ten Commandments, which they believe are still binding on believers as a rule of life. Interestingly, the word translated commandments is not the Greek nomos, which John reserves for the Mosaic Law. It is rather entole, meaning order, command, or change. Dispensationalists, on the other hand, do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life, as the way by which God deals with His people ( 2Co 3:7-11; Heb 7:11-14).*[For a full discussion of the contrasts between covenantism and dispensationalism, see Renald E. Showers, There Really Is a Difference (Bellmawr, NJ "Twenty-First Century Biblical Commentary". Marion, IA: Laridian, Inc., 2021.

All Scripture including all of Paul's letters to the churches are inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and Jesus do not contradict each other. Paul wrote in Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Hence why majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life, as the way by which God deals with His people ( 2Co 3:7-11; Heb 7:11-14).

Jcubria,

You are welcome to believe in the "Believer's Bible Commentary".Marion, IA: Laridian, Inc., 2021.

I choose to follow the God's Holy Bible KJB, and be instructed by God's Holy Spirit. I will listen to Jesus/God when he tells me to be obedient and pick my cross Matt 16:24.

I really hope you will open you heart to the true scriptures, instead of spreading man's interpretation of the scriptures as you are doing above. If/when you really pick up your cross, you will be under God's influence and His Holy Spirit - as opposed to mans/satans influence, and you will begin to learn to become obedient to God's TRUE commands, and when you do - you will know, Psalms 119:35 as you will be blessed when you DO, and you will be reprimanded when you DON"T. Proverbs 28:9 John 5:14

Learn to Fear God, this is the beginning of Wisdom! Proverbs 9:10

Read and Believe.

Hi Jema, I'm sorry it took so long. Detailsit is my fault. I don't know what possessed me to put cbd oil in my food, yes, in my food. I know some oils are good to take care of hair, on hair not in food. Why cbd oil? I have repented of everythingvanity, ignorance, disobedience.but my hair keeps falling off. For three years. So, as George Muller cried out"Now Lord heaven or restoration. I'm ready to go home. Thank you and God bless you by showing off His supernatural power in your walk with Him.

Take up your CROSS and follow me.

What does taking up your cross and following Jesus imply.

DEATH, you have to DIE; yet, you are alive; this is the first death, dying to TRUTH, then the judgement: 1 Peter 4:17 The time is (NOW) come, that JUDGEMENT must begin at the HOUSE OF GOD (your the house of God, judged by the words of God).

Galatians 2:20 I am CRUCIFIED (you died on the cross) with Christ; yet I LIVE, yet NOT I, but CHRIST LIVETH in me (YOU are the body of Christ).

ONLY the BODY of Christ arose from the grave, the NEW CREATION, you are the BODY of Christ, you; flesh and blood, now longer exist, you DIED on the cross, only Christ RESURRECTED exist.

1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the LIGHT ......

! Corinthians 15:54 ...this mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY (Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY) .....

1 Corinthians 15:49 As you have borne the IMAGE of the EARTHLY, you shall bear the IMAGE of the heavenly .....

Romans 8:29 ... being predestinated to be conformed TO THE IMAGE of CHRIST ....

John 17:22 And the glory that thou gavest me, I HAVE GIVEN THEM, that they may be ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE.

God Bless You!

Matthew 10:15 Matthew 11:22?

Jcubria

To believe as you do you would have to be very deceived to completely ignore tons of bible scripture regarding God's commandments.

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

1 John 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

Jesus knows who really loves Him. John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Jesus kept His Father Commandments, and if we are REAL Christ Followers, we will pick up our cross and follow Christ including doing what He did - and follow God's Commandments.

Lastly, here is Jesus telling us that we need to follow God's Commandments is we wish to have eternal life. Revelation 22:14"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

So, you are basically telling others on this site to ignore Jesus and God, and much of the bible scripture!

I'm sorry Rainwalker, the belief in a literal Hell & a literal eternal torment for those who have rejected God & His Christ is not an idea from the dark ages nor from the Vatican - this is Scripture & plenty of them to support it. It's how one chooses to read, understand & accept the teachings from the Word that is in question - the Word does not change.

Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.

That's fine David0921. I don't believe I'm imposing any limitations - just reiterating Jesus' Own Words of what takes place (or, could take place) in the underworld pre-Cross. For me, even if there's no other Scripture that speaks of such an environment existing (for then the writer must have either gone there himself or had an explicit instruction from God to proclaim it), then even that one verse that speaks of it must at least cause the reader to consider the Truth & reality of it.

Yet, it remains the reader's choice, as do the many verses that show the Deity of Christ or of everlasting torment (& other Truths), that some folk can somehow explain them away to justify their belief or from Church teaching. So if a lesson as the one in Luke 16 is not taught anywhere else in the Word & is therefore relegated to join the list of simple parables as a result, then I believe we do great disservice to God's Word, and in this case, Jesus' specific teaching of life in Hades must either be scratched out or re-translated to suit our belief. And I'm sorry, I'm simply not prepared to approach God's Word in this way.

The short answer is NO! per Col 2:16.

Colossians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Mr. Spencer,

My apologies if I misrepresented what you were saying. I thought you were using the Ephesians passage to justify an understanding of the fate of the OT Believer, which I believe is not taught in the Bible.

What I stated is my understanding regarding the Ephesians passage which I believe applies to ALL of those saved throughout time.

Hello GiGi, good question.

First lets look at the return of Jesus in ( 1 Thess 4:16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and ((the dead in Christ shall rise first)) Where are these dead who rise first rising from?

They rise from the grave!

( Jn 5:28-29) 28 "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice", 29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

They come forth out of the graves.

( Ps 49:15) "But God will redeem ((my soul)) from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah'.

The word (grave) is #7585; it means hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat) including its accessories and inmates, grave, hell, pit.

( Heb 4:12) "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the (dividing) asunder of soul and spirit"

The word (dividing) is #3311; it means a separation or distribution, to part, to disunite, be difference between.

The soul and spirit are separated, disunited, there will be difference between them when we die.

The soul goes to the grave until the resurrection, then they rise first. ( 1 Thess 4:16)

The spirit goes to God and will be the ones who sleep in Jesus that God brings with Him in ( 1 Thess 4:14)

Blessings GiGi.

I'm sorry Chris, but it seems to me that you are imposing a limitation (i.e. not naming of individuals) on the parables that Jesus told and accepting concepts (i.e. eyes in the grave and communication between the grave and heaven) that are not taught in scripture in order to support a concept regarding OT Believers that is not taught in scripture.

Hi David.

Thanks for your reply, However you might want to re read my post.

I never said Christ went to the lower parts of the earth to bring out Old Testament saints.

I said.

I believe this passage of scripture is saying Jesus rose victorious from the grave. He paid the price for the sin of the world through His sacrificial death and Resurrection, and broke the power of sin, Satan, death, and hell.

I believe at this point those saved in the Old Testament leaves Abraham's bosom and goes to be with the Lord.

And so do we when we die.

End quote.

They will get their bodies in the resurrection.

I'm sorry if you disagree with that, we will have to remain in disappointment.

Thanks in advance and God bless.