Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 193

Hello Chris.

In grk those words are called synonyms. They are different words with the same meaning. ie church(ekklesia), synagogue(synagoge), congregation(synaxis), they mean the same, a gathering. The anc grks used them to express the same thing. Later, the church was used for the christian congregation and synagogue for the Jewish one. Today in some churches, the word church means the building where christians gather.

Now as I said to GiGi the respective word for gospel in grk (evangelion) actually means good message/news (in ancient greek). Any good message, not only the good news of salvation. The grk for gospel (evangelion) is a very ancient word. It first appears in Homer's poem, the "Iliad" in the 8th centuary BC, for the good message of a victory in a battle, also for the price given to him who brings the good news, or even the sacrifice that was offered to Gods for their support in a victory. In Roman times evangelion(gospel) was any good news from or about the Emperor. So it was not used just for Jesus' gospel. And with this meaning we should apply it in Heb 4:2. If we look it up in other Eng. translations, we find out that all of them translate it more or less as "good news spoken", I can not figure out why the KJV translaters prefered the phrase "gospel preached". Maybe there was no difference at that time. Maybe they really thought that it was Christ's gospel that was spoken to Hebrews, although the context of that chapter does not give that impression.

David0921

I desire to be submissive, & remain teachable, let take a look at one of your statement of belief.

You spoke to Ronald, & previously stating this many time as I recall

We get our understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself. The Bible alone and its entirety is the Word of God and must be our only Authority.



Ok, this is your faith, not mind, you know where I STAND ON THIS ISSUE, saying that Luke 1:6 they were not blameless. When the Scripture of Truth says plainly "walking in all the commandments & ordinances of the Lord blameless". along with the rest of the Scriptures that I've quoted concerning this, even giving you concordance reference which you use to understand the words of God. David, you don't even believe your own faith & your calling God a liar & you expect me to give heed to counsel such as this?

I could go on refuting you soundly with the Scriptures & sound reasoning, but considering our past conversations, what would be the purpose?

Souls are at stake here, whom Jesus suffer & paid the ultimate price for & God will judge His people Ecclesiastes 5:2,3

David,,,,,,, as Keith Green song says, Your heart is hard (& is hardening ) & your prayers are cold, so where will you go from here?

In love & truth, your Friend

Frankie J

Hello Shylesh.

All translations say the same thing,

"separate themselves" means they separate themselves and those who follow them from the rest of the church. "Makers of sectes" or "cause divisions" say the same thing.

Dear Ahalfeleven

I am so sorry to hear of your wife's request. I will certainly pray for you, her and your marriage.

Dear Heavenly Father, this marriage is in such trouble right now so we ask that You will step in and stop this divorce from occurring and bring back to both partners the love they had for one another at the start. We ask that You bring this wife to you inn faith in Your Son, Jesus. Restore this marriage to be better than it has ever been and continue to bless these two with love, faithfulness, compassion, servanthood, and graciousness to forgive one another from the heart. Father, bring honor to your holy name in this situation and comfort to these two who are in a painful time in their relationship. Comfort and heal hearts, minds, and each person in this family. We ask these things of You, Father, in the name of Jesus. Amen.

Hello Frankie

Sometimes salvation is an instant process like with that guard in Philippi and Lydia or the thief on the cross, but sometimes it takes time for one to get their heart in a condition of repentance.

But there is a diference between been saved and get perfected. Once we are saved by believing in Christ we start our course of sanctification. We are not perfect when we are saved, we still have our weaknesses, pasions, our bad character, etc. And now we strive, with the aid of the Spirit, to get rid the old sinful man and dress up the new man in Christ. This procedure takes time, a whole lifetime actually. And there is always the danger of getting out of that course. Maybe what you want to say is that the salvation we were given at first is not secured untill the end of our course in life.GBU

Acts 10:9-16

Hardening of the heart

when one rejects Light/Truth no matter what stage of growth one attain too,

they began to wither, darkness covers the eyes of one understanding & the ear become dull of hearing. Their love becomes cold

One's knowledge becomes tainted, their faith feign & if continue in becomes vain.

The thing about deception is, one doesn't know when one has or is being deceived.

Satan uses all his power, in signs & lying wonders with all deceivableness of unrighteous to deceive &

By the way all you who's knowledge is by the letter & book learning, being persuaded that your in the Spirit, your deceived. Only the Spirit can interpret the Scriptures for they are spiritually discerned. & any spirit that tells you otherwise is the spirit of the antichrist. The word power there in 2 Thess 2:9 is the same word power that used in Act 1:8

Satan has No lack of power to deceive.

God in His great love for us gives us Light, that appears to all mankind, whereby we may come out of this deception

To love the Truth more than ourselves, it is a gift from God 2 Thess 2:10 by receiving a love for the Truth. Fulfill the greatest commandment & the second likewise.

Don't allow Satan to cause God to send you strong delusions causing you believe a lie. Be still, become truthful with yourselves. I have, with the good, the bad & the very ugly in my past & God has rewarded me according to the simplicity & integrity of my heart towards Him & my fellow human being & is presently turning my once stony heart into a heart of flesh, enabling me to receive Him daily in everyday ordinary life experiences. Pick up the Cross, follow the Spirit as William Penn said, in the NT only the obedient eat the good of this land. John 14:15

In love & truth.

The problems of the U.S. and the entire world are not political, I believe they are spiritual. Unless genuine repentance occurs, the disastrous decline will in all likelihood continue.

Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Praying for Thy Kingdom to come!

Get ready

Isaiah 33:10-14KJV

10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off(the Gentiles peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near (the Jews, the clay), acknowledge my might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us SHALL DWELL with the devouring fire? who among us SHALL DWELL with everlasting burnings?

1 CORINTHIANS 3:13-15KJV

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

***This comment was inadvertently posted in the wrong thread. I have deleted that comment and am now reposting in the correct thread***

Chris,

Please see my response to what I thought was your last. And with which I agree regarding our disparate beliefs.

In this comment you are suggesting that Romans 3 is "only addressed" to those in Rome. Not true! While it is written to the Church in Rome addressing perhaps their misunderstanding of Mankind's condition, it, like the entire Bible, is written and addressed to all Mankind. And that statement is a statement of Mankind's condition, without exception, that has existed ever since Adam's first Sin of disobedience to God 's Law. That apart from God's Mercy in Salvation as He applies that Salvation to our life in making us Born Again, we are Spiritually Dead and in Bondage to Sin and Satan. And none of Mankind has any "inherent faith" that is pleasing to God and can result in Salvation.

To say it very plainly, you and I understand Salvation and the nature of the Bible quite differently.

I'm trying to find the scripture where the blanket is offered with the food, thought to be unclean, but God says eat.

Ronald,

I do not agree that the Bible teaches what you are suggesting regarding the Nature of the Godhead and the deity of the LORD Jesus Christ. The verses that I quoted speak for themselves very clearly. Every verse that you quote is absolutely true, but must be interpreted in the light of every verse in the Bible that relates. And when it comes to the Nature of God Himself we will never come to a complete understanding in our finite minds.

Most seriously though, and I am very certain of this, if we are following a gospel where Christ is not Eternal God Himself, then we have no Savior and we are still in our sins. But as long as we have the breath of life there is hope that God might open our spiritual eyes and lead us into Truth.

I have no more to say on the matter and so will leave it there.

Thank you for this discussion and may the LORD Richly Bless You.

Frankie,

We are only "blameless" if Christ has paid for our sins and we have become Born Again. Then the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us and we no longer stand guilty before the Law of God. No saved person will ever become "blameless" or "faultless" while living in their fleshly body.

When we become Born Again, God does give us a New Resurrected Soul which, in itself, cannot sin. But that Soul still resides in a Body that has not been "saved" and still lusts after sin. And so, while every True Believer will have an earnest ongoing desire to be obedient to the Law of God and will continue to Grow in Grace, they will never attain a state of Sinless Perfection in regard to keeping the Law of God. Hence the Apostle Paul's statement "the good that I would I do not; but the evil that I would not, that I do."

At the Last Day when all True Believers will be Resurrected / Raptured, they will receive their Resurrected Spiritual Bodies. At that time every True Believer will become Sinless in their whole personality and will live and reign with Christ in that state throughout Eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth.

From reading this and some of your other comments, you seem to have an incorrect understanding regarding the Nature of Salvation. I do pray that God might lead us both into Truth as we search the scriptures.

But thank you for you comment. And may the LORD richly bless you.

you say the law of Moses was there condemnation, yes indeed; to those who did not obey it, but what is it to those who do, but there glory, in the measure that God was please to reveal of His Grace which was freely given under the OT gospel

Deuternomy 4:6-9

There is no respect of persons with GOD.

As many as have sinned without law(THE GENTILES) shall also PERISH without law: and as many as have sinned in the law(THE JEWS EXCLUSIVELY) shall be JUDGED by the law;

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of wrath (the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day) and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;

6 Who will render to every MAN according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH,

9 TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH (from now on, the beginning of sorrows-Matt.24:3-8), upon EVERY SOUL of man that doeth evil, of the Jew FIRST, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW (THE GENTILES) shall also PERISH without LAW; and as many as have sinned in the LAW(THE JEWS) shall be JUDGED by the LAW;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before GOD, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the GENTILES, which HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the LAW, these, having NOT the LAW, are a LAW unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the LAW written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In this Day(the Lord's Day, this seventh and last Day) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY GOSPEL. (TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH (from now on, the beginning of sorrows-Matt.24:3-8), upon EVERY SOUL of man that doeth evil, of the Jew FIRST, and also of the Gentile;

Be careful or then get ready

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Friends

Concerning Hebrews 9:14

The cleansing offer here, is from the evil one, who rules in the old Adamic nature, the first birth.

The dead works are by Satan influence upon hearts & minds, thus we yielding our member unto unrighteousness Rom 6:16

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is obedience to the Spirit. Rom 8:14

Hebrews 10:5-10

The nature of the Salvation that Christ offer was to rid us of sin. John 1:29 "ONCE & FOR ALL".

Bring us to a life of obedience, by the Spirit through the new birth 1Pet 1:2

Hebrews 10:14-18 Where the remission of these are, there is no more offering for sin.

& why, as stated in v 16,17 , the expression here is they that are sanctified, by obedience to His holy will & are made perfect, they sin no more. Christ being formed in the heart by God writing His Commandment on the tablet of our heart & placing His fear there Jeremiah 32:40

Hebrews 10:26-31

If we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth, the Grace of God that appears to all mankind Titus 2:11-13

The Holy Spirit who John 16:8

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When He appears in Spirit teaching us to discern between Good & evil & we repent with godly sorrow, remission of whatsoever sin is granted, except blasphemy of Holy Spirit. The Blood of Jesus cleanses us of the sin itself & from the influence of the evil one, that we're not to continue in it any longer or we're troddening under foot the Son of God, counting the Blood/Life of Jesus, the Covenant, an unholy thing & doing despite to the Spirit of Grace, turning Grace into lasciviousness & wantonness.

Folks, this is the true gospel, that has the living Power of God to save unto the uttermost to all that come to Him by faith, His spiritual appearance within our heart / conscience, "The still small Voice". The letter of either covenant cannot reach here, the letter is knowledge, a form of godliness without the Power of His Life/Spirit, & yet it was given unto us as a Witness & Points to the Spirit by which all the saints in the Scriptures were taught, led & saved by.

A personal testimony

Its not an instance salvation, as taught today's in Babylon's Christianity, describe in Rev 17; Mystery Babylon, but is reveal by the Spirit in Philippians 2:12 Rom13:3 1Pet 1:5-9 as a work in progress after we first believe.

Its takes time to purge out the old leaven, from faith to faith, glory to glory; God's mercy & longsuffering love takes us by the hand & leads us to conquer one enemy at a time, in cleansing the house, until we're thoroughly purged Luke 3:17 gathers us unto the Gardner, becoming fit for the Master use & the end, a crown of righteousness unto everlasting life. '

Its truly is fighting the good fight of Faith, the hearing of the Word of God in our heart.

In love & truth

Hi David0921,

I agree wholeheartedly, but if we look at it this is where this doctrine came from, the writings and ideas of men. The Old and the New Testaments are the inspired word of God. You can find Scriptures that may fit this doctrine, but that is if we have a preconceived knowledge of it before we read it.

I agree with you, Scripture interprets Scripture, and God gives us understanding through His Spirit. We also need to be aware if we have preconceived thoughts of any Scripture these thoughts can blind our eyes and ears to the truth from the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the entire Bible is it taught or even discussed. You would think how this doctrine has been placed as a foundation of Christianity and even as many say salvation is dependent on belief in it, but nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned. Scripture is clear about our salvation and there is not a jot or tittle including this doctrine that was written almost 400 years later.

Thank you, David, for your caring replies and discussion of this, I guess we can leave it with that.

God bless,

RLW

God's Commandments are a symbol of His love for us, and obedience to His commandments is a statement of our love for Him.

1 John 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

quoting you; no one but Christ could fully keep it

Luke 1:6 Philippians 3:6

to use your own tools of understanding

blameless!

, ( to blame), blameless, deserving no censure, free from fault or defect: Luke 1:6; Philippians 2:15; Philippians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Hebrews 8:7 (in which nothing is lacking); in the Sept. equivalent to , Job 1:1, 8 etc

Do you think, that perhaps you could be blinded here?

In KJV it says

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

(looks like, this speaks about causing problem to himself)

But in Tyndale it says

Jude 1:19 These are makers of sectes fleshlie havynge no sprete.

(looks like, this speaks about causing problem to the church)

In BSB it says: These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit.

Which one is correct "separate themselves" or "makers of sectes" or "cause divisions" as in other translations?

Because both "separate themselves" and "cause divisions" are different in meaning.

Hello Frankie,

I do not equate the gospel preached to the Israelites mentioned in Hebrews 4:2 with the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is not the gospel at all. It is the Law that brings us condemnation because no one but Christ could keep it fully.

It seems like you have misunderstood what I posted.

Ronald,

We don't get our understanding of the Bible from history or the writings and ideas of men.

We get our understanding of the Bible from the Bible itself. The Bible alone and its entirety is the Word of God and must be our only Authority.

When we recognize that God Himself is the author of the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation, we know that we can only come to Truth by comparing scripture with scripture, using the principles that God has laid down in the Bible (and which I have tried to articulate in previous comments).

And then also recognizing that God himself must open our understanding of His Word by giving us ears to hear, as it might be His good pleasure so to do.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is very clear that John was speaking about creation. John says JESUS was with GOD and "All things were made by JESUS; and without JESUS was not any thing made that was made". By the way, JESUS -the Greater Light- was sent here by our GOD in the fourth Day, that is, around 4000 years after Adam, and around 2000 years ago, and JESUS clearly stated saying "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."- John 5:17, NOTE that it was still the fourth Day. But, "beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one Day". - 2Peter 3:8

Hi David0921,

Isaiah 9:6 his name shall be called does not make him what the name is many Hebrew names have God in them. Jesus says He came in His Father's name.

John 1:1-4 What is the beginning that John is referencing here? Is this the beginning/creation or is this John's prologue of his gospel, the beginning of Jesus's ministry, as in Luke 1:2 or 1 John 1:1? The word of God was in Jesus for everything Jesus said was not His words but the Father's words who sent Him, John 4:16 John 12:49 John 14:24.

Jesus was the Tabernacle of God; God was manifested in Jesus, and this is the light that shined. The light that shined was eternal life 1 John 1:2. This life was given to the Son from the Father John 5:26 and we can have this gift through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 6:23. Jesus proclaimed the Father, the Father was the Word which was proclaimed to the world, and the Word was God. In Revelation 19:13, Jesus's name is the Word of God.

John 10:30 John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: As God and Jesus are one through Jesus we also can be one in unity and purpose.

John 14:9 The Father was in Jesus by God's Spirit everything Jesus did and said was from the Father. This is what Jesus is telling them in verse 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

I understand we differ, and this doctrine is deeply rooted, I do not want to offend anyone. I have studied the creation of it, and it was as much or more political than Scriptural, especially considering the number of lives that were taken because of it.

God bless,

RLW

David0921. I didn't say that Hebrews 11 spoke about Hades. I referred to Abraham (in Hebrews 11); that when he died, that he went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31).

Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.

The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.

Hi Gigi

Cont..

Same gospel, yet in an embryo state of types & shadows, its blessing were outward, worldly & only cleansed to the purifying of the flesh, was a tutor to led us to Christ who's Blood cleanses the conscience from dead works " sin; meaning the author of it " by His Spirit of Grace & Truth in the inward parts.

The OT gospel of the letter commanded, but could not empower, thus the history of Israel never continuing steadfast & faithful to the end. Which is a repeated exhortation in Hebrews to us & them as our example of what not to do.

Yet, God in Hebrews 11 gives us Light of the true & living faith, that comes by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself. We must put a separation from a faith that comes from the letter & the living faith that comes from the Spirit, letter kills, Spirit brings us into the very Life of God, becoming partakers of the Divine Nature & delivers us from the corruption of our fleshly birth.

With the NT gospel of Grace, inwardly, God promise Holy Spirit provides the power for the new birth John 3:6 its blessing are inward, heavenly, spiritual, in truth "Christ" the Substance of all things. Who in the fullest of time was made a life quickening Spirit, for our sake

Concerning the rest of Chapter 4 its has to do with obedience to the gospel under the 2 covenants, it they would have obey, their was a certain measure of rest that OT gospel provided, otherwise, they could not have been condemned for not entering into it & the same goes for us, the question is, who will truly enter?

Our rest is in Christ, the Substance, who provides all for us, in causing us to will & do of His good pleasure by the promise

Holy Spirit, to those that believe, believing & obeying are synonym, we enter into His works that were finished from the foundation of the world Ephesians 2:10 provided we obey Him, thus He becomes the Author of eternal salvation to all that obey Him.

NT the birth.

And Chris,

I agree completely with your final comment. The thing that makes me tremble is that at least one of us is declaring "thus saith the LORD, when the LORD hath not said". And therefore at least one of us is declaring a Lie.

May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word.

Thank you David0921. You have shared your position & belief on this matter before and I accept that it is your understanding. As well, you know my position concerning the 'salvation' of the OT saints & other related features under the Old Covenants. If we cannot find agreement on the various dispensations seen in the Bible in which God operated in different ways, then that alone will assure us that anything we discuss that includes such Bible divisions, can never find agreement between us. So thank you again & every blessing.

Furthermore Chris,

The "faith" of OT Believes that is spoken about in Hebrews 11 is not some kind of "inherent faith". That is not possible based on Romans 3. That faith is the Gift of God that RESULTS when God applies His Salvation to any individual whom He saves throughout time. That is the faith that they lived and died with by God's Mercy and Grace as God applied their Salvation to their life, the RESULT of having been given a New Resurrected Soul, the RESULT of having been BORN AGAIN, of having been given ETERNAL LIFE.

And that meant that when they died physically, they went to be with Christ in Heaven in their soul existence to await the Resurrection of the Last Day; they did not go to a place called "hades".

It means that they experienced exactly the same Salvation of NT Believers before their physical death.

And that is the reason that Enoch was translated, that Elijah went to Heaven in a in a whirlwind, that Moses and Elijah could appear on the mount of transfiguration in their Spiritual Bodies along with Jesus.

These OT Believers did not have nearly as much information about Salvation as we have in the NT. Nor would their understanding have been as complete as ours should be. But complete understanding is not a prerequisite for Salvation. Only the Mercy and Grace of God ALONE. And the EFFICACY of Christ's Atonement for their sins which was available FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.