Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 202

So Chris, (part 2)

I think you have understood my statement that you quote correctly.

Every OT believer that God saved became "Born Again", just like every NT believer. There is no difference.

But certainly not everyone of OT Israel that observed the Ceremonial Laws was save. In fact, we know from the Bible that only a tiny remnant out of all the 12 (or 13) tribes became saved. The Pharisees were fanatical about keeping the Ceremonial Law. Did that forgive their sins.certainly not.

Chris,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of THE LAMB SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Mark 4:33,34 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Chris,

The efficacy of Christ's payment for the sins of ALL whom He has saved or ever will save extends throughout the history of the world beginning from creation.

The Ceremonial Laws which Old Testament Israel were commanded to observe were "historical parables" designed to teach them, and us, about the nature of Salvation, the forgiveness of sins. Observance of these Ceremonial Laws did not save anyone. And apart from Salvation, there is no forgiveness of sins.

Old Testament Israel did not have the whole Bible as we do today; so there understanding of the Nature of Salvation would not have been nearly as complete as ours should be today. Although Jesus was critical of Nicodemus for not understanding that we must be "Born Again".

But God does not require an extensive knowledge of the Word of God to save because Salvation is 100% the Work of God Alone, i.e. Grace Alone. The Salvation of the 120,000 Ninevites who humbled themselves and repented of their wickedness at the preaching of Jonah is a beautiful example.

So once again, there is ONE AND ONLY ONE Salvation for anyone whom God saves throughout the history of the world. And that Salvation is by God's Grace Alone, apart from any obedience to the Law of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thanks David0921. I've written to Giannis - if I could refer you to that to save repetition.

But to yours, I'll refer: "Forgiveness of sin has everything to do with Salvation itself. Any Old Testament Believer was "saved" just like any New Testament Believer. That is, Christ must have "paid for their sins" and that Salvation must have been applied to them by making them Born Again. And that is ALL the work of God Alone, Grace Alone." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand your statement as, 'the OT believers (within the OT framework) were still saved people, since Christ's Sacrifice, not having occurred yet, still cleansed them as well. That even within the OT economy, just as Nicodemus was, they too could still receive Christ's salvation & experience re-birth'.

If I've understood this correctly, & hoping that I haven't, then I would refute it. I believe that the old sacrificial system looked forward to the day of that Perfect Sacrifice, but the application of Jesus' Blood was only accomplished at His Death & Resurrection and by the Power of the given Holy Spirit. The OT believers knew nothing of such cleansing, re-birth, or deliverance until the Work of the Cross was accomplished - they remained in their sins, saved only by God's special Providence upon them alone giving them hope ( Psalm 130). Those, like Nicodemus, who were alive in Jesus' day, received the Word concerning re-birth. But like all those before him, Nicodemus (had he turned to Jesus then) would still only experience Christ's Salvation after the Work was finished & the Holy Spirit given. I understand that the shed Blood of Jesus applied only to those who came under it; and of the deceased OT believers in God, Christ's Blood availed, "by (the) one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified": all who have been set apart by God, whether alive then or now, or even deceased before Christ, have their redemption made complete in His Blood.

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Therefore I submit, that those who did abide by God's Instructions pertaining to the sacrifices, were forgiven & accepted by Him, being held in Hades upon their death, but awaited the awakening to eternal life, even as Jesus made those sacrifices complete for them through His Own Sacrifice. For if they weren't forgiven at the first (i.e. their sins were covered before God, for He cannot overlook sin), then their second part would be alongside the rich man in torment who received no forgiveness. If their sins were not covered (i.e. they remained unforgiven), then they would stand condemned, die in their sins, and Jesus' Sacrifice could never apply to them. But Jesus' Death did apply because it looked back to the sacrifices that spake of Him & pointed to Him alone.

Therefore, even if Jesus' Coming would not be till many centuries/decades later for them, those of obedient Israel could still stand confident before the LORD, that their performance of the sacrifices that pleased Him, their righteous standing before God & full salvation later, was certain. Yet, as we know, most of them were unfaithful in spite of God receiving & blessing them, so suffering & captivity were their lot - even what they had before God, they lost - but those truly IN Christ Jesus now can never be lost: Hebrews 10:12,14,17, "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of GodFor by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctifiedAnd their sins and iniquities will I remember no more".

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Hi brother Giannis & thank you for your comment. What you have written is correct, as far as 'sacrifices of animals could not remove sins', & of course, the coming Perfect Sacrifice in Jesus was the fulfilment of what those old sacrifices pointed to. We can't ever deny that.

But the problem we have here is: we know it was the LORD's design for a sacrificial system which ultimately pointed to Jesus' Sacrifice, but what good or benefit did those sacrifices have for the OT priests & the people? Why did God require meticulous observance of every facet of those ordained sacrifices, if the people yet remained in their sins, unforgiven & likely for many of the disobedient ones, destined for hell? And then as you stated, the righteous at that time went to Abraham's side, & we could also include those such as Moses, David, & others; these also had to abide by those rules - if they refused to abide, counting the sacrifices of little importance, would their righteous living & walk with the LORD be sufficient to save them?

What I'm considering here is: since all people can only be saved through Jesus Christ's Death, then there must be more to those OT sacrifices that were specifically instituted than just a pointing to the Perfect One. True, people had to know about their sin, the need for punishment for any disobedience, repentance, the provision of a substitute for them (the sacrificial animal), but also God's acceptance & forgiveness. They could know all of these, yet if God still refused them & only forgave them in Hades, post Jesus' Death, then it stands that they would remain condemned on Earth no matter how many sacrifices they performed - all their obedience, all the priests work in applying the blood to the horns of the altar, all the sacrifice aroma ascending up to God which pleased Him, would count for nothing except as religious acts that served the sinner no purpose - only to God alone.

Hope to continue P3 in the morning. Our missionary family members are visiting this weekend this the stop and go along with the stumble verse.

I meant Exodus 25:13 written out caused the stumble.

Jimbob,

Always seeking the truth. I love the truth.

Love your comment "blessings to all who seek the truth". Amen to that!!!!!

Hi Bro Dan. I agree with your statement that says that our obedience shows that we are saved. That is in line with what I posted, but in a different way. Thanks for your input. Have a great evening.

Hi John ray

Greetings in Christ JESUS

In fact it is very sad, and it is happening in whole world, and the worst it to still come for all nations. Read what JESUS said and warning the whole world by His word: Luke 21:22-36. Take a look.

By the way, there is no effect without cause. See this one example below, among many other since ancient time:

2 Chronicles 36:14-16

14 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the Lord which he had hallowed in Jerusalem.

15 And the Lord GOD of their fathers sent to them by His messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because He had compassion on His people, and on his dwelling place:

16 But they mocked the messengers of GOD, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people,till THERE WAS NO REMEDY. (Now it is not and will not be different, THERE IS NO REMEDY, unfortunately.)

Romans 2:5-11

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

2Peter 4:17-18

17 The time is come that Judgment must begin at the house of GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of GOD?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Hi Ryanvh,

I do not want to create a debate, but you say do not go to the Greek, 1 John 5:7 a simple verse. I understand this verse is held in high regards and I say this in love, not to rebuke but to inspire true study for the truth. This verse is not in any Greek manuscripts before the 1500s, it was in the marginal notes and in the Latin translations.

I just want to inspire study for the truth, not a I am right you are wrong; the truth is what we are in search of, the true meaning. No need to reply to just study for your own understanding.

God bless,

RLW

Hi GiGi,

Always nice to hear from you. You state "Our obedience does not "save us"..

But I will say: Our obedience assures us that we are really saved.

It is through obedience, that we demonstrate our faith in Jesus, so we need to "overcome the world" and accomplish God's purpose.

What is the world? Secularism: As a philosophy, secularism seeks to interpret life based on principles derived solely from the material world, without recourse to religion. It shifts the focus from religion towards "temporal" and material concerns.

As we grow closer to God, we need to have a change of heart, and turn our backs on this world, which would mean releasing our attachment to the material world.

We have to bedoersand not hearers only

James 1:22

"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

GBU

Hello Adam,

I was actually thinking of you today. I am glad to hear from you.

I often wonder about those who have been frequent posters in the past when we haven't heard from them. Aways happy when people post.

What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, self-executable. By the way, GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were-understand? Romans 4:17 and Hebrews 4:3. Take a look.

In my vision, and I'm sure of this, the day of Christ's return is the day 1.335 - Daniel 12:12. GOD said: 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Why GOD said that? Exactly 75 days after the END of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:27, and 45 days after the END of the Abomination of Desolation.

The question is: How to know by the calendar what day the day 1335 will fall on? Impossible, for now. Anyway, get ready, because it's very close.

GOD BLESS YOU, AND ALL

Hi CJF

Greetings in Christ JESUS

What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, I mean, is a Person, self-executable. Hebrews 1:1-3:

1 GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days (last two days or last 2.000 years) spoken unto us by His Son-JESUS-, whom GOD hath appointed heir of all things, by WHOM also He made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE of GOD's PERSON (the Word made flesh), and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

According to the Word of GOD above we can see two Persons. GOD the Father, the Word, and GOD the Son, the Word made flesh. By the way, the Word made flesh-JESUS-, He said: I and my Father Are One- John 10:30. And John 14:8-10 reveals:

8 Philip saith unto JESUS, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

The Word made flesh-JESUS-, He said: ...no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him- Matthew 11:27.

And John the Baptist,the angel of the Lord,said:No man hath seen GOD at any time,the only begotten Son,which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

But who is the 3rd Person? What does the Word of GOD say, besides 1John 5:7?

JESUS said: When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you FROM the Father-the Word-,even the Spirit of Truth, which proceeds from the Father, HE shall testify of me-John:14:26

When he,the Spirit of truth,is come,he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself;but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall He speak

Hi Charlie,

Interesting question. No one knows the day of Christ's return and the end. Matthew 24:36.

The premise here is that God is waiting on someone or something, but maybe He isn't. There may not be any rush whatsoever. By the signs of our culture and society degrading into immorality and foolish acts of war by the US government it seems like the end will be soon, but we don't know. People have always been evil and corrupt, though. I don't know if its necessarily worse or if we just have more media access and coverage.

I don't think anything is waiting on satan, because he's nothing in the grand scheme of things. He will probably die in hell like all of his followers and I don't see anything bending around his schedule, instead what God wants to do- maybe until He is satisfied with the number of people saved or maybe other things. I don't know.

Hi, I think I figured out my problem. Exodus 25:30 written out was causing a stumble.

hI Ryanvh

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Perfect. Perfect.

"Bit of advice, don't go to the Greek. A simple verse to explain it all is 1 John 5:7"



The Holy Spirit never uses us to interpret Scriptures by the letter, even in Greek, it is very danger thinking from human perspective, a stumbling block, not from GOD's perspective- Matthew 16:22-23.

He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from above is above all. John 3:31

1John 3:1-3

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of GOD: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of GOD, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as e is pure.

Hi Frankie,

Wonderful message of scriptural truth, and thanks for sharing. Hopefully, it will reach "a few special ones" that are sincerely open and desiring to recieve God's Spirit in them, because almost all Christains today don't want to hear that they need to stop sinning. When you show them the scripture about this - they just ignore it, or find excuses why it doesn't pertain to them.

They well tell you; This life is short and they want to enjoy it along with all of their worldly pleasures. They've been told by their pastors and others that Jesus paid for their sins, and now they have basically a free ticket to heaven. They will tell you that they already have their salvation and nothing that "they do" can change it.

Today, it's really an uphill battle winning souls to the truth, and convincing christians that they need to Obey God! They will call that works, and say that they don't have to do anything, because it is all in God's hands. They have taken the bible and reintreperted it to allow themselves the ability to remain seduced into living a worldly/sinful lifestyle, and still believe they will recieve salvation.

Express the need to them to follow God's Commandments, and they look at you like you like you are crazy! The devil has certainly been hard at work winning christains over in these times. God continues to send many messages to try to wake folks up - but as the world continues to deteriorate around us - they ignore these signs.

This verse summarizes: Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

GBU

Bit of advice, don't go to the Greek. A simple verse to explain it all is 1 John 5:7.

Yes Chris , that's my understanding also :) , you explain it much better than I could .

While we wait. There were a few typos on P1. Sorry for this!

Good morning! My first attempt of P2 with 100% bible verses with no comments made the blocklist?

Any advice before I try again?

Patience is a virtue!

Thank you, God Bless our faithfulness.

Carleton

P1: Re-read some scriptures last evening and would like to write them here.

All of John Chapter 13 ; Chapter 14

John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature."

Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory and express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknowledge, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."

1 Corinthians 1:29 "That no flesh glory in his presence"

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS."

Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privileges."

Isaiah 53:1 "Who hat believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"

Philippians 2:5 - 6 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

Hebrews 6:20 "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."

P2 follows

Hello Chris.

When God said that their sins were forgiven He didn't have in mind sacrifices of animals (which worked as a figure) that can not remove sins, but He had in mind Jesus' sacrifice that was going to take place at the proper time. That is why the OT saints weren't going to Heaven but into Hades into the center of earth in Abraham's bosom and they were kept there till Jesus' resurrection. After Jesus resurrected from the dead then and only then those souls were eligible to go to Heaven (which means that at that time were really forgiven) and since then they are kept under the altar in the Temple of God in Heaven, under Jesus' sacrifice that is. If Jesus' sacrifice had never taken place (an imaginary senario) then no human would ever go to Heaven, no matter how many thousands of animals were ever sacrificed every year. Abraham's bosom was a temporary place of comfort where souls were residing untill the remission of sins was to take place by Jesus' Blood.GBU

Thank you brother Chris. We can enjoy the blessings in Christ together.

Hi Jimbob

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Reading you comment above ref. Joel 2:31, and Rev.6:12-17, and Matt.24:29-31concerning "The sun turns dark and the moon to blood ((before)) the day of the LORD comes",

first of all I remember that "there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve Stars". Once "the sun tuns dark" the woman will be in darkness(terrible), by the way, at "midnight there was(there will be)a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. Then all those virgins arose(will arise), and trimmed(and will trim) their lamps.

And the foolish said(will say) unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out"; Matt.25:6-8. The lamps is gone out at midnight? In full midnight darkness, in a so perilous hour?

In the above comparison described, I am trying to highlight the issue of the sun becoming dark as prophesied. I don't see or interpret as being a physical phenomenon.

Based in Revelation 9:1-3&10&6 & 11-12

1 I saw a STAR fall from heaven unto the earth( Isaiah 14:12-14 combined with 2 Thess.2:3-4): and to HIM was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And HE opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the SUN and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months



6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter

GOD BLESS

Jema,

I'm sorry, but that is not what the Bible is teaching. Please read my last response to Chris's responses.

There can never be forgiveness for sins, any sin, unless that sin is fully paid for in accordance with the Law of God and that payment is Eternal Death. And that requires that Christ Himself must pay for any sin that is to be forgiven.

Forgiveness for sin is part and parcel of Salvation itself. God must then apply that Salvation to the Believer by causing them to become Born Again by God's Grace Alone. And all of that is required for any sin of any person throughout time to be forgiven. And we know from Hebrews and the rest of the Bible that no sacrifice of animals, nor any observance of the Ceremonial Laws, nor any obedience to any Law of God can save us so that our sins can be forgiven.

There is one and only one Salvation for everyone throughout time that God saves. And apart from Salvation there is no forgiveness for sin. God does not have separate Salvation plans for Old Testament Believers and New Testament Believers.

Thank you Jema. And we can consider the other aspect of the sin offering, where the LORD directed Moses in regard to such sacrifices, that for "the sins of the people", two goats were to be provided: one to be sacrificed & the other the scapegoat bearing their sins & iniquities" (Leviticus chapter 16). This is what the LORD required; their perfect fulfilment would be seen in Jesus Who was both the Sacrifice (payment) for our sin and the Scapegoat, upon Him was laid the sins of the people (becoming the sin-bearer) & driven far (casting away our sins, "as far as the East is from the West", Psalm 103:12), and to be remembered no more.

This act might appear to us just as symbolism, awaiting its fulfilment in Christ, yet if there was no merit gained by its performance then (i.e. that sinners were forgiven by their submission & obedience), then the whole system would be a farce, offering a false promise, leaving those eminent ones such as Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, & many others, without any present assurance & hope for eternity. Even though it was "not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins" (i.e. remove them entirely, but had to be sacrificed yearly), God had instituted this & through it He kept His people covered, shielded from His Wrath & forgave them when they looked to Him & waited upon Him.

I've always understood that what was required of Israel in those days were for their benefit & blessing, yet only giving a foretaste & for a complete revelation found only in Christ & the Gift of His Holy Spirit.

Sin Kept Out of the Kingdoma

All professors and people consider where you are and from whence you are fallen, you that plead for sin and say none can be set free from sin while they are in the world; you plead for a hold for Satan in you while you are here, and where will you have him cast out, or what fellowship can you have with God so long as the serpent is head in you?1 You are separated from God and knows him not; for what communion hath light with darkness?2 God is light, and he that dwells in God dwells in light, and in him is no darkness at all; but while you live in sin you are in darkness,

1 of 4

1 of 4 cont.....

and the god of this world hath blinded your eyes that you cannot see it.3 You are led captive at his will to serve him, and you are willing to be so, and you do not believe that ever you shall be otherwise. You are servants to sin, and you take pleasure in it; you are in the flesh and sin, and have made a covenant with hell and darkness and death. You are resolved to serve and please the flesh while you live, and you will repent at your death; you have forgot that your times are in the hand of the Lord, and that this is the day of grace and repentance,4 which you turn into lasciviousness and wantonness. You make it plainly appear you have your lustful pleasures, wantonness and filthiness, and love them more than God. You that love the world and the things of the world, the love of the Father is not in you;5 for whom you love, him will you follow. Christ saith, "If you love me, keep my commands," and those that follow him, he leads them out of all the ways of sin into the ways of purity and holiness; and so he is the way to the Father.6 "For without holiness none can ever see God,7 for he is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity, neither can any unclean thing come in his sight." But while you are following the prince of the air, which ruleth in the children of disobedience,8 bringing forth fruits of sin and unrighteousness, having your conversation in the earth and earthly things, following your corrupt wills and pleasures, and yet you will profess you love God, and own him in words, and the devil in practice. Oh horrible hypocrisy! shall not the righteous God find you out and reward you according to your works;9 you cannot deceive him. You deceive yourselves who think to be heirs of two kingdoms; you will have the pleasures of sin here, and you say you hope to be heirs of the kingdom of heaven too; but the hope of the hypocrite shall perish