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Hello Chris.
Firstly sorry about my late response.
Generally speaking I do agree with what you have written, with most of it. It is true that in the N.T. the moral law of God is not limited in those 10 (9) commandments, there is more, and I don't think that any of those 9 is not valid any more. Actually in the O.T. there were more than the Decalogue, those were a summary or the main ones or some commandements that were representative of that moral law.
Now, nowadays. If we limit our knowledge to what the Spirit of God produces in us then we could say that we have no need to read the Bible or that apostle Paul was wrong to write instructions to churches including suggestions about what to do and what to avoid. Yes, one could say that most of them is common sense, even unbelievers could have thought of them. But it is also true that the Word of God works as food, milk in the beggining, meat later on. So we need it to grow spiritually.
How does the Spirit works in us? The Spirit produces its fruit which is love, joy, peace... But is this an automatic process? The way I understand it: I have to look to what God expects from me firstly. How is that done? It is done by reading His Word which includes His moral law which represents His righteouness. Then when I have that knowledge I strive to do that in my life. How is that done? At first I do what I am able to do. Secondly, where I saw that my limits are beyond what God expects from me (who can say that love their enemy?) then I asked God's grace which means that I srtive in prayers by getting filled with God's Spirit. To be clear I give an example. When I see that I get upset and angry easily and although I strive to overcome my anger still I am not able to do it, then I go to prayer and I say to God, "Dear Lord this is my limit, my ceiling, can't get higher than that, please help me", and I stay in prayer getting filled with God's Spirit which gradually produces a fruit inside me, and that fruit grows and grows...
If the belief that a beleiver does not commit sin any longer after they have been born again and saved, then how do you explain:
1. Matthew 12:43-45, "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."
2. How do you explain the parable of the prodigal son.
3. How do you explain the 5 unwise virgins that were left out of the marriage.
In your answer you said that 1 John 1:8-9 is for unbelievers. But in 1 John 2:1 it says, "MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin (because this will be eventually done sometime), we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
In verses 8-9 it says, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." Pay attention that HIS BROTHER, then it says that i he hates him then he stays in darkness. That means that it is possible to hate his brother, hence doing a sin. And that is for a believer.
GBU
Thanks for your input, on this topic: Are We Addicted to Sin.
I sincerely appreciate your presentation of pertinent scripture regarding sin and our ongoing obedience to God, and your well reasoned logic directed at some of issues required of us to work toward achieving a sin free life in God at some point. I will admit, it is hard, but not impossible! Matt 17:20 It is hard in the sense that in order to do so - we can't continue to live in our current worldly lifestyle, and we can't continue to to tell ourselves and others Satan's lie: that we can't stop sinning. If we are to pick up our Cross and follow Christ it will certainly require worldly lifestyle changes, and a positive change in our thinking, and total acceptance of the scriptures like 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9, so we can't just remain in denial and just dismiss these scriptures!
Also, thanks for sharing your personal testimony and life experience's leading you to ministry school, and your ongoing and continuing struggle for the truth, as it applies to God, Faith and sin. I believe you also understand our need to be obedient first, and I believe we can agree "it requires our total obedience to know God and the Holy Spirit" and in so doing, we learn to obey His words, please Him and really know Him. Rom 12:2 Philippians 2:12-16
Thanks for the book reference, No Cross-No Crown. I will certainly look forward to reviewing it.
GBU
Noah was 600; and one could argue it is a typology of the 6000 years of the earth's existence before the Tribulation; followed by the 1000 years of the Millennium by 2 Peter 3:8.
In the time before the flood known as "Antidiluvian"; clearly men lived longer than afterwards. Thus; Adam and many of his progeny lived for 900 plus years; interestingly no one made it quite to 1000; which may be reserved to those who survive in the Millennium due to long life spans once again at that time with a paradise type of earth; albeit still with fallen men (see Isaiah 65:20). There was therefore the likelihood that many were only 2 or 3 generations from Adam by the time the flood came along; so that secondhand accounts of God's story of creation would leave wicked men without excuse. Enoch lived interestingly enough 365 years then was taken; perhaps somehow indicating a day symbolizing a year (although the old calendar was 360 days old); God also told Noah that He would only contend with men 120 years in Genesis 6:3 which could indicate their future lifespan limit; or the time left before the flood from that point.
In any case; God is longsuffering not wishing anyone to perish. ( 2 PEter 3:9). It is interesting that this verse is right after the one above that I quoted; and certainly explains why He waited so long to judge. Noah was a "preacher of righteousness" ( 2 Peter 2:5) but the narrative shows that only 8 were saved in the boat; and they were his immediate family. Sodom's destruction also followed a similar vein; in that case only Lot; his 2 daughters and wife came out of the city; and his wife turned back and was destroyed. In the flood; Nephilim would have contaminated man's bloodline as I see it from Genesis 6:9 that explains why no one else COULD be saved. His patience is seen with Sodom as well ( Gen. 18:32).
Thanks for further explanation.
I agree that there is much unsaid about the OT saints, and so we look to the NT to know how one is saved, whether Jew or Gentile.
When you say "'Faith' is what saves (i.e. necessary for justification) for both Jew & Gentile - the deeds of the Law having no part in it" what is the "faith" you are referring to? Is this Chris's Faith or Our Faith? This is not a distinction without a difference; it is the very essence of Salvation itself. And where we come down on this question determines the gospel we are trusting and proclaiming.
Galatians 4:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the "FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST", even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the "FAITH OF CHRIST", and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
What God is teaching here is that the faith that "saves" is Christ's Faith, His faithfulness in paying the full penalty for the sins of those He saves; not Our faith. And Our faith IN Christ and our justification is the RESULT of Christ's Faith. It is NOT THE RESULT of our faith. Our faith in Christ is a GIFT from God and is part and parcel of the Salvation and Justification that we receive because Christ has saved us.
Prophecy was inextricably woven throughout all phases of Jesus' ministry. The Parables had hidden truths on His return; the fate of the Apostles and the future end time events were emphasized in Matthew 24; and His role of God in the flesh was brought to the attention of the Pharisees as well as to those who would worship Him recognizing His Divinity. In this regard; of course hell was discussed more than heaven including the real account of Lazarus and the rich (unnamed) man in hell.
It is truly remarkable to see how the miraculous signs and wonders were unable to wake anyone up to the truth who God didn't elect. Such is the case with the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Such is the case in Luke 16:31. In fact; when we consider the Crucifixion and Resurrection even clear evidences weren't enough to convince the Roman officials and those in power. This is abundantly clear from Matthew 28:13 where the soldiers were actually paid for "sleeping on the job" when such an offence by law would be a death penalty certainty. Men will go out of their way to lie; just as we saw with Lazarus being raised by Christ they saught to kill him and Christ because of their insane jealousy of His authority ( John 12:9-11).
In all of this we shouldn't avoid seeing the big picture. Christ in all of His ministry only did the Father's will ( John 8:28; 38; John 12:49). His exaltation; therefore and claims to Diviity were never self serving; but whowed God's plan. Somehow Christ would condescend to being a man; and have a life of sorrow and suffering ( Isaiah 53); then He would take on the sins of all His elect and be our atonement; dying on the cross and rising victorious. EXERCISING His authority would be after God grants it to Him ( John 28:18). He voluntarily emptied Himself of this authority so God could renew it (Phillipians 2:5-8).
Christ knew all men's hearts. We can say that all things were done in the Spirit by Him.
You state: Maybe "we can get to a state of sinlessness" as you say,
It is not as I say, it is Jesus in Matt 17:20 and John in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 and ultimately God, as the bible and all scripture if of God.
I'm accepting what God is telling us in these verses. These verses are tough Love, aren't meant to keep the sinful status quo, they are meant to wake us up! God does not want us to live the rest of our lives in sin.
You state: but if we don't in our lifetime, then we not only never had Christ abiding in us, but we actually belong to the devil, simply because we have committed even that one sin,
It is not just about "one sin". It's about a lifetime of continual sin. You must see this; if we continue to tell each other and believe we can never stop sinning, we will in fact lead a lifetime in sin.
If we commit one sin or multiple sins - at the time we commit that sin - we are not abiding in God. Anytime we are sinning we are Not abiding in God - we are abiding in Satan. If we repent and ask for forgiveness God will forgive us. But we must be sincere and stop the habitual repeating of sin.
You state: never finding freedom from it or any other sin. That would be an awful state to live in, if those verses are read & interpreted as given
Yes, I agree with you, that it is an awful state to live in sin, and these verses interpreted as given by God: are exactly meant to make us feel awful, hopefully to motivate us to really make changes, and work with Him and His Holy Spirit to rid ourselves of all sin. Is it better that we feel awful here on earth, if it promotes us to make the changes to accommodate Gods commands and receive His blessings ultimately winning the prize, and receiving eternal life in His Kingdom. Matt 18:22 Mark 9:43
In summary: God tells us not to sin - throughout the bible. I do not see one place - that God tells us sin is acceptable to Him. If you do, please present the scripture.
GBU
You
Luke 17:17 shows how one man out of ten came back to worship God after being healed by Christ. If we read the text carefully; Jesus did instruct them to go to the priests (verse 14) after the healing. No doubt He knew their hearts as to those who would follow protocol and those who would recognize God at work and take time to appreciate that fact. To be technical unlike some other references at this stage it is unclear if this man knew He was the Messiah as it doesn't state that He worshipped Christ just gave Him thanks.
As we can see in this situation; Jesus would look for individuals when it came to healing; seeking those who had genuine faith. It is uncertain how many who He touched actually came to saving faith; and likely there were even less when it came to the crowds being fed. John 6:26 makes it clear that the signs weren't even something that moved them to consider the importance of these feeding sessions; at least with healings that couldn't be denied. Whether they had some sort of other reason for the miraculous provisions is unclear; or if they only cared about free food. Not finding any verses where God was praised for such an event makes us wonder.
Ministry to the Disciples
Some individuals; no doubt were incorporated into new disciples along with the 12 Apostles. The parables; however were given complete explanation by Christ to the 12; sadly often bringing upbraiding for their lack of faith and understanding. So; in a sense Christ had His favorites (the 12) and even a select few such as the 3 who went up in the Transfiguration; and John was apparently most beloved. In the preceding posting; we see how Peter was often severly rebuked; and in the one case Satan who was influencing his thoughts was exposed. Infighting as to who was the greatest certainly wasn't going to make Christ's day any easier and sadly they still were doing this the last week of His life.
It is clear from Mark 8 and numerous other passages that Christ had crowds following Him everywhere. This; no doubt was a large part of the reason He couldn't rest His head any place.
24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
Mistry to the crowds: Healings; feedings and Parables
What is noteworthy in Christ's ministry is His technique of aligning men's thoughts to the proper focus; that being Christ's purpose. The Parables acted as teaching of who Christ was; in a manner that would only reveal it to those who God draws to Him. Mark 8:30 is one example of Christ admonishing Peter on that subject. In God's Providence; when the truth WAS revealed it would either be to those who God drew; OR it would be given to those who clearly were rejecting Him (Pharisees); which would only elicit hatred and attempted assassinations (which would no doubt fit into His destiny of being captured; rejected and crucified). This is a very sobering thought to ponder; namely that information about who Christ is is never sufficient for conversion without God drawing a man. Jesus escaped man's attempts to kill Him until the proper hour; but also He didn't want to be worshipped as King of the Jews to be a conquering hero because His own people couldn't see the suffering servant prophecy that needed to be fulfilled first. We see how this worked when the crowds shouted "Hosanna" the beginning of His last week on earth; then before it was over were shouting "crucify Him." ( John 19:6). Also as we see a few verses later ( Mark 8:33) Satan was working in Peter to try to stop Him from going to the cross. The cross is an offense to man; and we should look at it's beauty and horror in one picture of this event as it pertains to our atonement and justification by crushing God's son ( Isaiah 53:10).
Before discussion on the giftings in the Spirit which Christ would utilize; I thought the general content of the messages would be pertinent to the subject at hand. Healing was something in the miraculous that Christ seemed to be unrestrained in procuring throughout His traveling ministry; with the exception being the Pharisees and those in His own hometown.
Mark 6
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief.
The above example may be a classic case of "not seeing the forest through the trees." Those who knew Him best really knew Him the least. Seeing who He is; of course only comes through Divine guidance. Mark 7:29 shows the example further explained in Matthew 16:17 where it says that only the Father reveals this kind of information. In any case; Christ would go out of His way even to a Syrophoenician woman; to perform a healing ( Mark 7:26).
So; let us briefly review Jesus' ministry to others as we earlier examined His personal prayer life.
Ministry to the Pharisees and those of His hometown. Unbelief was; to say the least a fundamental principle in ministry to his local contacts and the Pharisees. It was; you may say a "necessary evil" as the Pharisees were entrusted to the law (which they added many further ordinances to put men in bondage). There was still a procedure whose framework Jesus expected people to follow; but not their hypocritical actions ( Matthew 23:3). So until Jesus was crucified and Resurrected He needed to deal with them; largely so that the rest of the Jewish believers could be able to worship in the soon to be abrogated Old Covenant ways.
Ministry to the crowds.
Ministry to individuals.
Ministry to the Disciples
More to come.
Once again, I must strenuously disagree with the quote that you referenced on page 2 of your comment to Gigi.
I would encourage you to go back and read the book of Jonah. Read it very carefully and pay particular attention to, first the message of Jonah, and secondly, the response to that message of the Ninevites. And we know for a certainty that 120,000 Ninevites were saved.
The Ninevites were not Jews. They new virtually nothing of the God of the Bible. But they recognize Jonas' message, not as the word of Jonah, but as the word of God Himself. And we know from the rest of the Bible, that this was not because the Ninevites were somehow wiser or more worthy than anyone else that becomes saved. They were in fact, an exceptionally wicked people. They were sinners just like everyone that God saves.
So what happened here? God had worked in their hearts to save them. And he caused them to respond as they did. Just as God has worked in the heart of every True Believer throughout history. Not because it was a certain time in history, or because they were a certain people in history; but because they were sinners in desperate need of a savior, and God in His Mercy had chosen to save them before the foundation of the world. And this is exactly the same Salvation that God worked in the hearts of Abel and Noah and Abraham and David, and every true believer that God has saved throughout time.
When I look at the sum total of your comments, I feel that you are proclaiming a different salvation plan for different peoples based upon their time in history and their knowledge of the Bible.
And I believe when we fragment the Scriptures and begin to proclaim a different gospel for different times in history and for different peoples of the world, we are walking on very dangerous ground.
......The law and the Prophets were until John since that time the Kingdom of God is preached and all men press into it Luke 16:16
There was no baptism of the H.G. till Christ came....Thus no new birth till Christ came.....No new Creature till Christ came....The H.G. was not given till Christ was glorified.....Thus no kingdom or real Salvation from Sin....till the woman births the manchild...... Rev. 12:10....Simply b/c the book of life was sealed with 7 seals.....Jesus wrote this book of life with his own blood at Calvary.....The O.T. answers to the 1st wine the law.....But the N.T. answers to the 2 nd wine which was the best wine.....The gift of the H.G. the Kingdom that is gonna rule all nations .....The wedding was not till the 3 rd Day which is the last day when Jesus turned the water into wine....
.......The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in Joy and Peace in the H.G. Romans 14:17.....The REAL H.G. is the Kingdom of God.
.......But the O.T. was a shadow of things to come.....Just as Abraham Isaac and Jacob were multiplied as the sands of the seas so the heavenly Godhead will be multiplied as the stars of heaven.....Thus there will be an Israel of God as the stars of heaven....The seed of Christ will produce a heavenly ppl that are gona be born in us.....Which answers to our new hearts and new spirits.....The H.G. The Children of Promise.....Flesh and blood are not the real Children of God ....Its only the Children of Promise that are counted for the good seed Roman 9:8 kjv.....Which are Spirits the H.G. Plural...I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh....Thus the sower and his seed, his words as my words are SPIRIT and Life.....The field is the world...But this New Covenant is gonna make us Gods.....To whom the word came ( the living word) it made them Gods and the scriptures.....Thats y the Prophets were saying what manner of love has the father bestowed on us.
Amen!
to your questions;
1.Can you generate this height of Love on your own? No, the exhortation that Jesus gives us in these Scriptures creates a desire within us to please Him, which is a breaking up of the fallow ground of our hearts Hosea, 10:12 to the planting of this Seed, & as we are not a forgettful hearer of the word, but an exerciser of it, the Seed grows as God gives the increase according to our integrity & sincerity of heart towards Him. Hebrews 4:12,13
2.Is it not a fruit of the Spirit given once one IS saved? No, it to is an exercising of these virtues in the same manner describe above, Philippains 1:11, being filled 2 Cor 9:10 increasing; denoting a work in process, as we remain faithful, steadfast & true in His great work of regeneration within us.
in love & truth
Though open to opinion, the best I've read is: "The difference may be explained from the fact that the real Jew already has a germinating faith from the completion of which, justification arises as fruit from a tree. The Jews are justified out of (Gk word 'ek' used for 'out of') the faith which their father Abraham had, and which they are supposed to have & demonstrate. However, the Gentiles must enter that door (of faith granted by the Spirit) and pass through it (Gk. dia) in order to be justified." (words in brackets are mine).
The Faith is the same for both, but the Faith of those pre-Cross were regarded by God that made their justification possible by Christ's Sacrifice. Whereas, Gentiles had no such heritage or even a Law to draw them to God, but needed the same faith (given by the Spirit now) to believe & accept this strange God & His Sacrifice of Love. The righteous of Israel already had faith, knew God & awaited that Sacrifice that would seal their justification. If you believe that the faith that Israel expressed was also given them by the Holy Spirit, then we have no proof of that; or that their ordinary faith expressed under the Old Covenant, including their obedience & their standing as God's Elect was accepted by God; again a lack of proof to support this, so we just have to leave that point for further research. But ultimately both secured their salvation & received full justification at the Cross & nowhere else. Thanks for your input.
Your honesty & plainness of speech is admirable, & your struggles touch my heart, we all experience these working within our conscience. & to James 4:7, To all that would desire freedom from sin, God does His great work of redemption in these everyday ordinary experiences in life to cleanse us from all sin, Seek to understand the Cross & it will separate you from this sinful carnal nature.
No Cross No Crown, William Penn Chapter 1-8
In love & truth
I guess GiGi, we would remain in disagreement here. I can only understand the faith that saves as applying to those looking back to the Cross, understanding its message, being convicted, repenting, receiving Christ by His Spirit, & being born again. This is something (all of it) that the OT folk could never do. But it is true, the Word is silent about the way the faith of those before Christ worked. You believe that their faith was also a gift from God, as ours is for salvation. Again, this understanding is left open as to how we understand the meaning of faith & its application (both in everyday life & in salvation). So, I don't make a doctrine out of this, but just sharing how I read & understand the Word (maybe it is as you suggest, through my Dispensational eyes). Yet, I don't believe in "two ways of salvation", only one, in & through Christ's Blood. But what I do see is that the Cross which has the same implications on both, the Jew before Christ & the Jew & Gentile after Christ, has to be approached with 'faith'.
So if we look at Romans 3:28-30: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision BY faith, and uncircumcision THROUGH faith".
'Faith' is what saves (i.e. necessary for justification) for both Jew & Gentile - the deeds of the Law having no part in it. So this same God (of Jew & Gentile), justifies the one (Jew) BY Faith & the other (Gentile) THROUGH Faith. These words are generally disregarded by students of the Word as insignificant (whether BY faith or THROUGH faith) as they are too similar to warrant argument, yet Paul was inspired to pen them in this manner. See Page 2.
in love & truth
Maybe some actual recent personal examples are reluctantly called for: I'm out shopping & someone barges past me in a hurry, knocking me to the side; or, the next day, the solar system technician fails to keep to his appointment that I've been waiting all day for; then the third day, a person walking her dog fails to control it & the dog manages to make contact on my leg with its teeth. Three different days, three different sins as I failed to take adequate control of my internal responses: not having a total peace, calmness & understanding in those situations if Christ by His Spirit was truly abiding in me. I'm sorry to write in such a manner, but I'm earnestly trying to find out if no-one else finds these 'daily' sins popping up in their lives or is it just me, or maybe, others don't regard such matters as sins. If 1 John 3:6 is as you read it, I am lost & without hope. I'm earnestly working on my internal feelings in such situations as I gave, but till then, sin has its control over me, & should I die shortly, I'm doomed. So then, what is sin? If abiding by the Decalogue determines it, then I think I'm a sinless specimen, but if under the working of the Spirit, I fall short & always will while sin appeals to the flesh.
Maybe "we can get to a state of sinlessness" as you say, but if we don't in our lifetime, then we not only never had Christ abiding in us, but we actually belong to the devil, simply because we have committed even that one sin, never finding freedom from it or any other sin. That would be an awful state to live in, if those verses are read & interpreted as given. GBU.
I do agree Bro. Dan of the great work & expertise applied to the KJV, to make it the best we can have in our hands. Yet, without laboring this point of how the translators understood the Hebrew, Aramaic, & Greek languages & then used English words to reflect their understanding, the fact is that the Truth lies in those languages & not wholly in translation work. There are always going to be differences in how words are used & even understood in past centuries, and so it is with 1 John 3:6. We read it as given as we are taught to read; so we would correctly say, that since "sinneth not" means 'does no sin', therefore, those who claim to abide in Christ, simply do not sin. And I've already shared what I understand is the Greek rendering of that verse.
But assuming that the verse is to be understood as given: that the one abiding in Christ does not sin (not even one); if he does sin, it proves he doesn't know Christ at all. Sorry, I have transliterated the verse to emphasize your point. Based on this, I'm not at all referring to one living a life of sin, or even slipping up & momentarily sin overtaking him; I'm referring to even one sin that proves that we really don't know Him & are hypocrites. I read your last sentence, "are we really pursuing God, or are we performing mouth service, while pursuing worldly things and Sin". This sounds like you're referring to a life that's in pursuit of & enjoying things sin-related. I don't speak of such a practise, but of just one sin that prevents us from abiding in Christ & He in us. Onto Page 2.
Firstly, the 8 verses in John 15:1-8 certainly refer to Christians being grafted into Jesus so as to produce the required "fruit" - but your understanding of 'the fruit' associating with the "fruit of the Spirit" as you stated in Galatians 5:22-23 is not correct. In other words, does God the Father seek "...love, joy, peace..." back to Himself from Christians?
As an example, if I meet a Christian man who is abrupt, discourteous, angry and generally offensive, I know that he does NOT have the Holy Spirit's presence within him. On the other hand, if I meet another man who exhibits, "...love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control" and especially is a LOVER OF BIBLE TRUTHS - then I know that such a man has the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit within him.
In John 15:2 and especially verse 6, Jesus is very clear that if Christians FAIL to produce unto God the required quantities of "spiritual fruit" expected, God the Father will remove them permanently from Christ. When that happens, John 15:6 says they become "withered" (spiritually) prior to men (or angels - Matthew 13:40-42) later gathering them prior to burning in the Lake of Fire.
Therefore, the "spiritual fruit" that God the Father requires to be seen brought unto Him from each Christian during their lifetime on the Earth represents the souls of men, women and children "lost" in Satan's kingdom and brought into God's kingdom ( Luke 15:7) through the preaching of the Gospel.
In the parable of the Sower and the Seed, Jesus described the quantities of "souls saved" through the preaching of the Gospel as being 100, 60 or 30 souls (my understanding). If Christians fail to produce less than 30 lost souls into God's kingdom throughout their lifetime on the Earth, it is questionable whether they have Salvation, given the words of Christ in John 15:2, 6.
Any comments you might have would be appreciated.
AN ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
"IF YOU "LOVE" ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".
Let's put some emphasis on Love for a chance.
What manner of Love is this?
Is it not agape?
Can you generate this height of Love on your own?
Is it not a fruit of the Spirit given once one IS saved?
SO WHAT IS THIS SAYING?
To get the context you have to pick it up the from John 13 on through John 14:23.
John 13:34-35.
"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
BY THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOW THAT YE ARE MY DISCIPLES, if ye have love one to another.
Jesus taught that those who follow Him will show love for the brothern ( John 13:12-15, 34).
That is the primary sign of faith to the outside world ( John 13:35). Here, he indicates that obedience to His command is the primary sign of our love for Him.
A person cannot claim to know Christ and hate other Christians
1 John 4:20.
Proceeding from John 14:15 on thru John 14:16-23 Jesus is telling them he was going and sending them the Holyspirit that will guide them.
Throughout this section, a person's love for Christ, their obedience to His teachings, and the indwelling of the Spirit are intertwined
All the law hangs on this.
Matthew 23:37-40.
AND THE MINISTRATION OF THE LAW COULDN'T PRODUCE THIS.
2 Corinthians 3:8-11 concedes that regeneration by the gift of the Holyspirit in those who believe in Christ exceeds the ministration of the law.
"How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of THE GLORY THAT EXCELLETH.
FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINETH IS GLORIOUS.
It's the fruit that is on exhibit.
That's what James is also saying in his letter.
Also see
Titus 3:4-8.
God bless.
You might be misleading people by de-emphasizing some verses while focusing narrowly on other verses.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15 KJV
Why would Jesus say this if people automatically obeyed? Jesus didn't say if you love me you will automatically keep my commandments. He didn't say if you responded to an altar call once when you were 12 you will automatically love me and automatically keep my commandments. Over and over He challenged is followers (Christians) to mature and grow. It's a choice. It takes effort. Many followers in the Bible messed up on occasion and chose sin instead of obedience and had consequences. Those who claim God is going to serve you and that you don't have to put in any effort whatsoever are misleading others with a falsehood. The Bible says we are to become slaves to righteousness. Slaves. Not everyone is willing to live the life as a Christian. Many will cry Lord, Lord in the end assuming sitting on the couch was enough to get in the gate. Loving and obeying does not automatically mean someone is trying to earn salvation, we hear this straw man argument all the time. But genuinely following Jesus and transforming takes intentional effort. Reading the Bible reveals many examples of this.
Have a nice day.
We may be mincing words here, but I do not agree with your statement that the Old Testament believers did not have saving faith or faith as a gift of God. I don't believe any person can be saved without this gift of faith through grace.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, Joseph, David, Elijah, Isaiah, and the other prophets were elected for salvation so they would have been given the gifts we receive from God by merit of Christ's sacrifice. Just as it extends ahead of His work to us, it extends back in time to these saints.
The Bible no where says that they did not have a gift of faith by grace, so we cannot really make a doctrine by something that was not revealed in the Scriptures. If the Scriptures say that it is by grace one is saved through faith, then this truth is for all time, since no Scriptures state any other way to be saved. To state that there is a different method of salvation for the Old Testament saints than for New Testament saints is to say that the gospel promise was not for them, just for us.
This two ways of salvation doctrine is classic dispensational teaching going back to Darby. Today, many dispensationalists do not accept this belief.
If God can apply the merits of Christ's sacrifice to those who live long or centuries after the sacrifice was made, then He can apply those merits back in time to those who He elected to salvation. He is not bound by time as we are. We do not know all that God said to these Old Testament saints in their private conversations. Not everything was recorded, but some of this was communicated to children, grandchildren as the patriarchs aged. So, I do think that these saints knew more about the Messiah than is recorded in Scripture. Job knew that the Messiah would be resurrected and that he would be resurrected on the last day and behold His Redeemer in life after death. Abraham knew that God could raise the dead. He most likely knew the Messiah would be raised from the dead.