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Thanks for your response regarding the your comparison of the scripture 1 John 1:8-9 in contrast to 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9
I see no contradiction in 1 John 1:8-9 as you state. Why? John is talking to unbelievers/unsaved. Please read from the beginning 1 John 1:1-10 in the entirety. John is talking to unsaved unbelievers currently walking in darkness. He is inviting them to join him and other Christians to walk with God. A key verse:
1 John 1:3
"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
John states: That which we (Believers) have seen and heard declare we unto you (unbelievers) That ye (unbelievers) also may have fellowship with us (believers) and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
In 1 John he is telling those unbelievers walking in darkness 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." John was an unbeliever prior to being saved so he is telling them that we were all sinners and if we don't admit it - then the truth is not in us.
Once we accept Christ and we are saved we are supposed to walking with God and striving to follow Christ and this includes overcoming sin. Hence, the scripture 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 targeted at those who are Christians who are to be following God's commands. We can't follow God and the devil simultaneously, and this is what God is telling us. It's one or the other!
GBU
I don't believe that the OT folk found or experienced this type of faith (they didn't need to - Christ had not come, nor did they have the Holy Spirit indwelling); but expressed an ordinary faith, like we would towards others deserving of it. But when their salvation was finally sealed (i.e. after Christ's dying for all), they, now dead for a long while (yet alive in spirit), had their faith that counted towards righteousness (righteous standing before God), realized in the eternal securing of their souls through Christ's Blood. They were still the beloved of God even before Christ's coming, but it took Christ's Blood to give them the Seal of God's Acceptance, not based on their works, but their unflinching faith & hope of the future, towards Him.
I know you would disagree with some or all of this, but I don't ever see that God gave those OT folk any gift of Faith, even looking ahead to Christ, but that they came before God in their faith, with their works & were found in right standing before God - something that couldn't be applied to those of us post-Cross, where ONLY God's Gifts of Grace & Faith (or, Christ's Faith as you have written), can make His Salvation effective in our hearts.
Thanks David0921; I think that this matter of 'believing on God' or even 'believing that God is able', is to be seen as different as to what we call 'saving faith', or a faith (act of trusting) in God to effect His Work of Salvation. It might sound like a 'grasping at straws' to convince another, but for me to adequately understand & apply this matter of 'ordinary faith & saving faith', is important. In the case of the OT folk, as we read here in Romans 4 about Abraham & David, the mention of Abraham's faith being "counted for righteousness", I understand that from what he knew & experienced of God, he exhibited human (ordinary) faith towards Him. And this was a faith based on his knowledge & his works to please God (as with Enoch, Hebrews 11:5). I don't perceive this was a special gift of faith for these men to exhibit, but an ordinary faith resulting from God revealing Himself to them & their desire to serve only Him.
But then we come to the NT & Ephesians 2:8,9. Even though unregenerate man, as those of the OT, can still express faith, whether towards God or man, in Ephesians we see that for the saving Work of Christ to be effective, we have the indivisible combination of both God's Grace & His Faith given for that to happen. In other words, God could have just given the sinner His Grace by way of sending His Son for them, but can that sinner, from an unregenerate heart, create a faith that can truly understand, embrace, & consistently live out the great salvation of God? And that is why Ephesians 2:8 shows, "and that not of yourselves": the Gift of God is both His Grace & His Faith that would instigate & complete salvation in that lost soul. Onto Page 2.
I am done with errands and need to prepare dinner now. I will be preparing to go out of town tomorrow, so I will be packing tonight. I am not sure if I will get to your request or not. But I recommend that you read the accounts in the gospels of Jesus' resurrection and appearances to His disciples, also Acts 1 tells of the ascension.
You can read the Last Supper Discourse in John 14-16 to see what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit dwelling within believers and when the Holy Spirit dwells in us, the Father and the Son makes their abode in us, too.
1 Corinthians 15 speaks about the resurrection of the dead. And there are several places in John that say He will raise up our bodies on the last day.
There is no place in the New Testament that says that Jesus removed His humanity when He ascended to sit on His throne at the right hand of the Father. Stephen, in Acts 7:55, said he SAW Jesus sitting at the Father's right hand. His eyes saw Jesus and recognized him as the Lord he knew on earth.
If I get time in the next few days I will give you more Scripture.
It is a widely held established view that the Bible is "The word of God" in particular considerable effort was put into the KJV Bible by highly capable language experts in Greek/Hebrew/English to interpret and transcribe God's words correctly. I believe most would agree that this is true.
1 John 3:6 This verse is from God's mouth. It's meaning is clear. It only becomes unclear if we have a reason to dilute it, minimize it, or ignore it to fit a particular doctrine.
The verse is literal, and again very clear "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not"
God tells us we can't abide with Him, and sin at the same time. At the time we sin we begin to serve the devil. As long as we continue sinning we are serving Satan. God gives us the will to make the choice to serve him by refraining from sin, and He tells us there is a consequence. What is that consequence? Separation from God during the time(s) we sin, if continual sin - eventually death, and hell, as opposed to eternal life with him.
If we are sinning more than staying true to God, we are separated from Him more than we are with Him. God hopes, and we as Christians hope that we can sin less, and remain with God more and more, as our faith and strength to refrain from sin improves. Hopefully, we can get to a state of sinlessness, this would then conform with Jesus telling us that if we had stronger faith - nothing is impossible for us! Matt 17:20
Does this take effort on our part, yes, and it is God's/Jesus command that we do. John 5:14 John 5:18
If we as Christians continue to tell each other "we can never stop sinning" we are telling God/Jesus that we don't believe that we can even with the Cross/Holy Spirit -if so we should STOP and rethink our path. I believe this weakness with sin relates directly back to our lack of faith that Jesus emphasized in his Gospel.
Are we really pursuing God, or are we performing mouth service, while pursuing worldly things and Sin.
GBU
Thanks, that would be great. I await the findings of your study.
God bless,
RLW
Never mind about grk philosophy, no worry.
I want to do a study about that "spirit of life" that God breathed in Adam and I will come back to this conversation later on.
It is possible that it actually means the Spirit of God or it means that the Spirit of God created life in Adam. Anyway I will leave it for now. GBU
1 John 3:9, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Also 1 John 3:6, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
BUT the above verses seem to be in contadiction to what is written earlier on, ie 1 John 1:8-9, "8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
So what is wrong? The former verses say that we dont (and can't) commit sin BUT the latter says that if we say we don't commit sins we are liars.
This is one of the few points in the Bible that the grk makes the difference. The grk doesn't say that we don't commit sin but we don't keep doing sins (in grk "amartano"), i.e. we don't live a sinful life, we don't stay in sinning. It is not a present continuous like we are continuously doing something but it shows that something is done regularly in the present without any stop. Since there is nothing respective in English, the nearest we can come to is the simple present that the KJV iuses. But it gives a different understanding.
GBU
I will be glad to give Scriptural citations later today. I am off to do many errands for now.
I do think you are not reading my comments carefully. What makes you think that I'm saying a True Believer should not be concerned about being obedient to God's commandments? I believe that the passage in James is precisely in line with what I'm saying about the Nature of Salvation.
What I am saying, or at least trying to say, is that our obedience to God's Commandments, the Law of God, the Bible is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation and the RESULT of our Salvation. But it is never the CAUSE of our Salvation. And if we do not see an increased EVIDENCE of obedience to God in our life and a real "want to" in our life to do the will of God, God in all likelyhood has not yet "saved" us. And that is what the Bible in James is teaching.
So let me ask you a few questions to help me understand your belief regarding the Nature of Salvation, if I may.
What is Mankind's condition before God has "saved" us?
What does it mean to become Born Again? What has happened to us at that moment?
How will our attitude and behavior toward God and the Bible change when we have become Born Again?
Is it possible to have assurance in our life that we indeed have become a child of God? How can we know that?
If we indeed have become Born Again, i.e. God has indeed "saved" us, can we lose our Salvation?
If Christ has paid for each and every one of the sins that His Elect will ever commit, is He obligated to at some point in their life to apply that Salvation to their life, and to keep them from falling away, and to complete their Salvation at the Last Day?
Or, as some would teach, did Christ actually pay for the sins of every Human Being and it is now up to US to "ACCEPT" that Salvation and do other things in order for that Salvation to become effective in our life and to be completed at the Last Day?
Thank you Adam
May I faithfully execute the will of my LORD and SAVIOR to go and make disciples. Praying also for the leadership of our country and for the lost and harden hearts to be saved and to have the mind of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.
GOD to shine HIS face on all who are on this forum; and to bless us gloriously. May our testimony in CHRIST show the peace of the LORD and cause others to thirst for the same.
GOD bless all the Saints to love HIS word and to trust and obey HIM.
June 27, 2023
Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
They are god's chosen people whom through their fall we have obtained salvation.
Romans 11:11
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
It was god's good pleasure to do this so that we may all be saved and become one.
Galatians 3:36-29
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
It was his promise from the beginning.
Genesis 26:4
"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;"
Right now things are going to well for any of the nations including Israel.
Revelations 18:1-3
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Keep preaching and praying because the 7 last plagues are coming soon.
It sounds like you're assuming once someone becomes a Christian that he doesn't have much responsibility to obedience, that God does it all? If that is your belief what scriptures do you feel support that?
You speak of a new nature. Do you feel like this nature is instantly and fully given by God or that it something a Christian develops into maturity? Which do you think comes first- this nature you say God gives that forces the follower to obey regardless of his freewill, or that the follower genuinely decides to obey and then is blessed by God?
The Bible I'm reading says in many places we have responsibility, especially ongoing responsibility as Christ followers. Proof of this is Paul writing many of his books to churches who were already believers, warning them of backsliding and avoiding sin. If God 100% controls people's actions as followers instead of the followers, why then would Paul write so many warnings to Christians? And if God is 100% controlling of people, does that mean God is responsible for causing sin when a Christian inevitably sins as the Bible says we all do? These are things to consider on this topic.
I think Christians are 100% responsible for their own actions, whether obedience or not and that excuses are used to justify sin and disobedience, which is another clever satanic deception.
Hi Friends;
As I read thru all the comments here, I said to myself, this is in itself a "wake up call" to all present. To come & try their faith, whether it be authored from God or not. Faith is a wonderous thing, it compel us to believe what we're reading & invokes a trust, in the things that we are reading is Truth. I've shared much on this present topic, as many here can witness too. It came to me as I was considering these conversations, that I haven't shared very much on how I came to receive this understanding that I now have.
1st little history from the past 15yrs, in 2008 I enter the most trysts time of my life, by 2009 my life literally disintegrated, I've started seeking the Lord with all my heart, soul, & strength, literately. I said to God, for once in my life I wanted to live wholly for the Truth that I then perceived was Truth. & so I did, gathering all sorts of present day books in a hope that they would help me. The hopes of my heart was to be set free from the sins & to know God, experientially. I read these Scriptures & knew that God who calls Himself the Word, would surely chose His words carefully in disclosing His heart & mind to us, I too, like Dan am a simple minded man. By Aug 2009 I enter ministry school with great expectations toward my hopes. I lived a fasted lifestyles, separated myself from frivolous conversations & fellowships. I took notice that were I was at, there was much lusty sinfulness happening here, more then were I had come from. In Jan 2010 I set myself to a complete fast, quit ministry school in which all my hopes were, & gave myself to Him. There was at present a war raging within me until the 3rd day, on the 4th morning I awoke in peacefulness, pickup my computer & there was a icon, saying false grace v true grace, so I click it. It led me to the writing of the people in scorn called Quakers, specifically between 1645 to 1700's.
What they declared in their writing awaken the Witness within me, bearing witness to the truth of their writing with the proof, in their exercises of the Truth that God was please to bring them through for His eternal glory.
One of God's minister among them was William Penn, founder of Pennsylvania; He wrote a book, No Cross, No Crown, the first 8 chap gave me valuable spiritual insight in what it means to pick up the Cross, & following Jesus. I've started exercising this knowledge by practicing it in everyday ordinary life circumstances & found experientially that it is Truth, the teaching are witness by the Scriptures & sound reasoning. I learned that once light/knowledge is reveal, its not possessed, but is an invitation, to be exercised & possess, mental consent to Truth is not possession, but it must be an operational faith in the Word, Abraham the father of faith clear reveals this. this is engraftment, James 1:21-24 & becomes our inheritance, this is increasing our talent, His Spirit within us.
I have come to a state where I rarely read there writings, & dare not pick up a concordance, which in this transition from one state to present, God literally rebuke me for during so. He is my Teacher etc; an increasing becoming my all in all, I'm free from my sins that so easily captivated me to Satan will & now on my way to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, that will thoroughly purge the threshing floor of my heart, discarding what chaff is remaining & to be gather to the Gardner, by abiding in the Vine. For I have learned from years of personal experience that without Him I can do nothing. Meaning being led by His precious Spirit, which is the foundation of their teaching. John 3:27
Seek Him who is within you, No Cross No Crown is a revelation on this very important endeavor in our freedom from sin & to truly know God, the way He desires to be known.
ps; its important to remember in these conversations, that 2 Cor 10:3-5 Ephesians 6:12
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent "Apo" (set apart) and "stello" (repress,retrain) but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Would be wise, and prudent to know, who those lost sheep, of the house of Israel are, and where.
PRAYER. The Lord's prayer wasn't meant to be a mantra; but exists in two different forms as an example of how to pray (and in that case as John the Baptist did). In the example of the Son of God; much prayer was done either early in the day well before sunrise; or at times ALL night long. This would prepare Him for what was necessary in casting out demons (such as the example where fasting was perhaps also needed). The public prayer during the day seemed to be mainly for the Disciples benefit; or for the crowds. The noteable exception was at Gethsemene; where the tension was palpable; and where Christ was in a life or death struggle and as a man was tenaciously attempting to get the attention of the sleeping Apostles; to little affect. We can't begin to comprehend what was going on there; none of us are called to die for the sins of others. The plan was predetermined in God's eternal counsels; nonetheless the agony was real; and despite all these pleas God only gave Him enough strength so that He wouldn't die before He got to Calvary. Very sobering stuff; to any unbeliever this would seem to be proof God wasn't real; and an apparent failure but of course it was a glorious thing to God for our benefit.
Anyway; prayers in private also; no doubt (before the garden) would be for the Spirit to give Him strength to continue to mentor the Apostles; to give Him strength with the persecution from various parties; and strength with the continual throng of crowds following Him wherever He went. Again; He would attempt numerous times to be alone; with the DIsiciples it often didn't occur; with Himself only sacrificing sleep in the night watches was a possibility. The enemy; no doubt would be working behind the scenes in all this (even with Peter); and the Pharisees who attempted to kill Him at least 10 times before the cross.
No doubt Paul spent much time praying and weeping
I feel it is good once again before entering this subject in detail to stand back and examine Christ's sayings on counting the cost to be a Disciple ( Luke 14:28). Before that; I also thought that we should ponder our trust level with Christ; such as the example C.S. Lewis mentioned about Christ; "He is either a liar; lunatic or was who He said He was" (Mere Chrisitianity). This can be expanded as far as I can tell to what He said in regard to being a true Disciple. Again; with Paul's example we see a more extended campaign both in time and distance covered in his four major evangelical Mediterranean journeys. The assurance that the prize was reached wouldn't come until the end ( Philippians 3:12:14; compare with 2 Timothy 4:7-8 at the end of His life). We are also humbly reminded of how many fell away at the time when Paul needed them the most ( 2 Timothy 4:16) which is interestingly right after the aformentioned passage in Timothy.
These things are necessary to discuss because we dare not look just with curiosity at all the things Christ did. It is clear that; for the most part we are not going to do miracles the Apostles did. Also; most of us are laypersons; and involved with marriages; or employment and our focus is meant to be in our local churches. This shouldn't limit us; especially with gifts and callings of full time evangelism or other mission field opportunities (including short term ventures). Today; more than ever EXAMPLES of individuals mature in the faith are rare; so we certainly need to be building church members up to maturity; for their own sakes and that of the next generation.
Proverbs 16:9 shows how man plans His way; but God directs his steps. We can't do anything without the Spirit; and to multitask on the go as Christ did takes total trust to a new level in God's provision. It is also all out spiritual warfare.
In more careful investigation of scripture; it appears that there are accounts that clearly delineate happenings that occur within a 24 hour day; and others that continue a narrative that may or may not encompass multiple days or perhaps longer periods of time. I thought therefore that a general study of the variety of challenges the Lord faced constantly; along with the spiritual giftings of all types apparent to be active simultaneously ( Colossians 2:9) would be interesting as He had all the "fullness of the Godhead bodily."
His example; therefore as our High Priest ( Heb. 7:25; etc) means that we can live by His example and thus be "imitators of Christ" ( 1 Cor. 11:1). This; of course is easier said than done; impossible in fact in our own efforts ( John 15:5).
Paul; of course is a great; if not THE penultimate example of a surrendered life; and in many ways mirrors Christ in self sacrificial love and service to the church; through many trials; persecutions; and sufferings. These studies should convince anyone who isn't in a coma that today's mushy view of Christ as embodying some sort of feel good; crowd pleasing charisma that everyone loved is far off from reality. This study is greatly challenging to myself; and I assume anyone reading these scriptures as to what is truly required to be His Disciple. Ultimately; I believe this will be a characteristic of every true believer in some aspects; but in reality few surrender their lives enough to truly live in this manner. It is more than an inconvenient truth; the challenges Christ gives to all His followers but of course is as process in some ways as well. The Spirit sanctifies us; conforming us into His image ( Romans 8:29). Philippians 4:1 and some other verses shows us how His church was Paul's crown. This makes our rewards to be based on building up brothers and sisters in the Lord; and to focus attention there keeps us from focusing on our own issues.
In both cases the breath of life would have come into them; in both cases they would have lived forever; and Christ came also to die for all men and women. I wouldn't say it is wrong to say that some characteristics of God can be found in women that may not be in man ( Galatians 3:28); but even before the fall a woman was made to be a helpmate; after it she would be ruled over by man ( Genesis 3:16) but in some sense desire to rule over her husband. Also there is no feminine deity; whether in the Godhead or; as far as we can tell in the angelic realm. However humans are created uniquely in comparison to the animal kingdom where there males and females would be created the same way.
Cain would have married one of the unnamed daughters of Adam and Eve; the easy answer.
Correction.
In my reference to the translation of Romans 4, I should have said Greek instead of Hebrew; and Hebrew in the equivalent Old Testament passage.
When did Christ, eternal God Himself, the Lamb of God, complete the payment required for the sins of every True Believer, those whom God would save throughout time?
When was Christ, eternal God Himself, the "Son of God", eternal God Himself Begotten of the Father, eternal God Himself?
Is there any difference in God's Salvation of Old Testament Believers versus New Testament Believers?
How does what we read in Revelation 13:8 that Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" and Hebrews 4:4 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did REST the seventh day from ALL his works."influence our understanding about these questions?
My purpose in raising these questions is the Hope that God might cause us all to search the scriptures afresh regarding God's Judgment and Salvation plan for mankind, praying constantly that God Himself would open our understanding and lead us into truth.
If we carry on reading into Genesis it gives us the answer.
Gen 4:25-26
25. And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.
Gen 5:4,6
4. And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
So God gave Adam and Eve another son Seth to replace Abel, and Adam had other sons and daughters. Back in those days we were closer to perfection so it was possible for Cain to take one of Adam's daughters (so Cain's sister) and have as a wife. Being closer to perfection back then there was no problem or complications with incest.
Remember too, Eve was made from Adam's rib. So Eve was a part of Adam and they did not have any complications baring Abel, Cain and Seth.
Gen 5:6
6. And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
Also Seth had to do the same as his brother Cain and take one of his sisters as wife to bare Enos.
Hope that answers your question.
God bless and all glory to him.