Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 261

NUMBERS CHAPTER 13

In this chapter, Moses sends twelve men to be spies to check out the land promised to this nation. Each man was a leader/chief of their tribe, one who was respected and determined to be trustworthy.

These men went up into the land. At Hebron they saw the three sons of Anak who were giants in stature and strength. The spies noted that the cities were well fortified and able to defend against an attack.

They also collected food samples to bring back to the camp to show the fruitfulness of the land (as God had promised it to be). They stayed in the land for forty days, getting much information to bring back to the people in the camp.

The Israelites were camped just south of the border of Canaan. They were still in the wilderness area. They could not see the promised land from where they were camped. Perhaps there was a range of hills to block their view.

The men returned to camp and gave a mixed report to the people saying that the land was indeed fruitful and desirable for farming and raising livestock and for dwelling. But 10 of the men spoke negatively about the strength and stature of some of the inhabitants. They spoke words of doubt concerning their ability to take the land since God was with them and had delivered them miraculously since leaving Egypt.

The people had just celebrated a year of travel in the wilderness and camping at Mt. Sinai. Now they were as close as they could get to stepping into the land promised. But the report of the giants in the land and the fortifications of the cities caused the people to decide not to enter the land. They believed the report of men instead of the Word of God that promised them this land. The people were wishy washy about their trust and commitment to YHWH. This event tested their faith and they failed this test.

Caleb spoke up telling the people that they would be able to take the land from the inhabitants because God had promised the land to them.

Hi Hammer63.

You've spoken well on this topic.

This group you are engaging with have been on this site for atleast 3 years.

There seems to be something very sinister about some of the views we come across in our everyday walk!

Just to encourage you, we all don't hold those views!

Most of us believe in a Heaven and Hell as a place and destination for the lost and the saved.

Christ death on the Cross was a sacrifice!

God offering his Son was a display of love!

"A way of escape for something we all deserve" The wages of sin is death. ( Eternal separation from God )

This group renders the work on the cross and God's eternal/salvation plan foolish if there's no consequences for rejecting Christ atonement.

Be careful not to provide them a platform.

God bless.

Hi.

That take you have seems familiar.

Here's a few things in your post that puzzles me.

Your Quote;

Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven, and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth (old covenant)

Are you saying the first heaven and first earth is the old covenant? If so how do you define covenant?

Continuing-

were passed away; and there was no more SEA (whores, peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues)

Then you continue on and state that

All men DIED (were destroyed) on the cross with Christ, the Old Law of sin and death was crucified on the cross and the New Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus was RESURRECTED. END QUOTE.

Are you supporting this doctrine where all men from Adam on throughout history is saved and there is no Hell?

And by the way, I believe the seas in scripture is often used as the Gentile nations.

Thanks.

0817880641

Pt. 2.

Jesus obeyed the will of the Father always willingly and lovingly. He never erred in thought, speech, or actions. In all that Jesus did, it was for our sake. He lived the perfect human life for us so that when He took our place on the cross He exchanged His perfect life to us for our sins. We have been given the righteousness of His perfect life and He took the judgment for our sins, taking them completely away and vanquished them.

This is such wonderful news to all of us who believe! And it is the Good News we can bring to those who do not yet believe.

I speak these things because I think it is very important that we believe about Jesus what Scripture actually says of Him. Hope this is helpful to you or to others who read.

Hello 0817880641,

You have made many interesting points in your post. I just wish to speak to one that you mentioned. That is that the Lord was not God before He was man, rather man, then God.

I would like to direct you to John chapter 1 where He states that:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was Life.....vs. 1-4

" And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld His glory..... vs. 14

This opening chapter of the Apostle John clearly says that Jesus (the Word) preexisted as God with the Father. And at the fulness of time, He (Jesus, the Word) became flesh (took upon Himself a full human nature like every other human but without a sinful nature). Jesus remained God while living on earth. God is eternal and can never cease to be. But when He became man, He added humanity to His Person to be both God and man in one Person. He was not two persons in one body. Rather He was One Person with two natures-deity and humanity. This is classic Christian doctrine goin back to the apostles.

God, in His infinite wisdom deemed that the only way the debt of the sins of all mankind could be satisfactorily paid for to bring forgiveness and redemption was through One who was both God and man. As God, Jesus was able to bear the extreme wrath of God for the sin of all mankind. As God, Jesus was the most precious sacrifice God could provide, therefore the infinite, inexhaustive worth of His life was the highest cost possible to propitiate our sins. As man, Jesus, having lived a perfect human life, was the only human in all history who could be a perfect substitute for all other humans to take our place before God and have our sin be judged in Jesus. In His humanity, Jesus obeyed each and every aspect of the Law of God to the very jot and tittle. He never sinned in any way. continued in part 2

Yes David , the wages of sin is death . God is love , He is not cruel or cold hearted , He is not a torturer . Millions of people , through no fault of their own , never got the opertunity to know the Truth and lived and died never knowing their God or Saviour . Are these millions suffering eternal damnation and torture at the hands of a supernatural evil being ? Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verse 5+6 .

Revelation 17:15 The waters (seas) which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues (this is all men, all creation).

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven, and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth (old covenant) were passed away; and there was no more SEA (whores, peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues)

All men DIED (were destroyed) on the cross with Christ, the Old Law of sin and death was crucified on the cross and the New Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus was RESURRECTED.

Revelation is the REVEALING of Jesus Christ.

Only one BODY arose at the RESURRECTION, you are joint heirs of Christ resurrection. Christ ONLY hath immortality.

1 Timothy 6:19 Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY dwelling in the LIGHT (presence of God) ...

1 Corinthians 15:54 .... this mortal shall put on IMMORTALITY ......

Romans 8:29 Whom he did foreknow (he foreknew ALL creation) he did also PREDESTINATE (by his resurrection) to be conformed to the image of Christ (being raised together as ONE) ...

God bless you

Hammer63

Do you believe what THE WORD says.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all shall be made alive.

Has this not already happen, at the cross and resurrection?

Galatians 2:20 I am Crucified with Christ ...

Are not these words for ALL men, do you believe you were crucified with Christ 2000 years ago, not yet born, but reaping the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For BY GRACE are you SAVED (given immortal LIFE) ......

This happened 2000 years ago, do you believe you were given this gift of God before you ever knew to do right or wrong?

Romans 9:11 For the children (the new creation, Christ in you) being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election (of Grace) might stand not of works, but of him (the Holy Ghost) that CALLETH.

Is it not God that is doing ALL THINGS according to his good pleasure.

Are not ALL men a POT and God the POTTER?

Is not God going to DESTROY ALL marred POTS and remake them into vessels of HONOUR.

All this was done at the cross and RESURRECTION.

God will CAUSE his creation to come to TRUTH at his good pleasure.

It's all THE WORKS of God, man has no say in what God see fit to do, we just know what the END will be.

1 Corinthians 15:28 ..... GOD will be ALL in ALL.

God bless you.

The circumcision through faith

What is a mutured faith looks like?

As it written in the scriptures that those of him like resemble him and be called Christ like, but little do we know what is Christ like especially if Christ is drawn only from the works and the miracles he had done, indeed I would argue that that is not maturity neither circumcision of faith through faith.

Before he was God he was man, as it written in the scriptures that he took the form of man and chose to suffer as human not God, because of the sins we carry are not of our spirit but of the flesh, the pain we suffer are not of our spirit but of our flesh, The spirit cannot be seen so it can't be it fighting for fame, fighting for glory, fighting for money, fighting for power and control, for the spirit carries it all by the Will of it's maker, The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, he cried to God. Because sometimes it is our flesh that is weak for success, that is weak to carry God, weak to praise him, weak to worship him. The day the flesh can carry the spirit that's the day we all muture in the faith, the day the Unity of flesh and spirit takes place that's the day circumcision through faith takes place, for a man Cannot return to her mother's womb, but through the spirit the flesh can be born again. For the spirit is given an identity, the spirit is given a name, the spirit is given life and purpose. Go make disciples of your own bless them in your name for your name's are names of the spirit not of flesh, they are names are of God not man who gave birth to them, they didn't return to their mother's womb to earn those names, but had to circumcise the flesh to endure the spirit through that they earned faith that granted them New life in God.

Psalm 98

This Psalm begins in verse 1 with a "new song". The "right arm" which gets the victory along with openly showing His righteousness (verse 2) shows His return after Armageddon to begin ruling with a rod of iron but with justice ( Rev. 2:27; Psalm 9:8).

There is a new song earlier sung by the 144,000 in heaven at an earlier date ( Rev. 14:3). There is one earlier on though; in Revelation 5:9 which appears to be those raptured and singing to the One worthy to open the seals who has overcome.

Verses 3 through 6 remind us of His presence being known throughout the earth and celebration to be given with instruments. His mercy and truth to the House of Israel mentioned in verse 3 makes it clear that God has once again salvaged Israel and restored it's covenant promises.

God judging the world with "equity" is true balanced judgment; not perverted sorts of methodologies which we see so often today. No doubt the prophecy in Isaiah 2:4 will be appropriate as swords are beaten into plowshares. That verse mentions settling "many disputes" as well; and no doubt we will rule and reign with Him in a supporting role over "many cities" for those faithfully following Him now ( Luke 19:17).

The mention of the sea roaring in verse 7 once again shows this as a Millennial event; as no more sea exists at the end of that time period.

Jema,

I am certain that you are on the path to truth regarding God's Judgment.

The Bible is very clear that the wages of sin is death. And that death is eternal death, eternal destruction. Also, in passages that talk about punishment continuing "FOR ever and ever", the word FOR can also be translated "TO". This fits with the understanding of destruction as God destroys this sin cursed earth and creates the New Heaven and New Earth that will exist eternally.

Additionally the word "Hell" is also translated "Grave".

So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction.

There is also the element of shaming where those that have died will be resurrected, not to life, but to shame and contempt, as their bodies or what is left are strewn on the ground.

I know this is anathema to the churches that have always taught eternal punishment. But we know from the book of Daniel that there will be certain truths that are unsealed as we near the end, which is where we are, I believe. And this understanding of God's judgment is one of those truths.

This is just one example of the Incomprehensible Mercy of God.

Addendum

There seems to be a different fate; for instance for the wicked servant in Luke 19:22 as compared with Matthew 18:32. The allegory in Matthew in particular seems to indicate someone who is lost; the parable in Luke separates the fate of losing the talent buried in the ground from the fate of those who would not have Him "rule over them." in verse 27. That would seem to indicate someone perhaps a Jew who physically makes it into the Millennium as a sheep and those destroyed the goats at the judgment immediately after the Tribulation.

To differentiate parables into one category or situation is tempting to due to fit a particular doctrinal viewpoint; but clearly there are applications for all wicked and righteous; as well as various rewards or lack thereof for His saints. There are applications for Israel as a nation; as well as the church. The focus certainly is on Israel as to where the events of the end times will occur; and the affects of what goes on in the end times will be felt throughout the earth.

The original question brought up the idea of how God would judge eternally with stripes as it were which could be metaphorical for punishments in hell; but again chastisement as a concept is opposed to wrath. Since He only chastises His own others are left to reap the reward of their doings. There will be varying degrees of punishment in hell; and no doubt those who are reprobate knowing something about God will have harsher sentences.

In summary; it is better to be disciplined now than suffer in hell; but it for His people there can be suffering inflicted by Satan if we persist in rebellion. ( 1 Cor. 5:5). We can be as the person in Proverbs 5:14 almost ruined in the assembly; or approaching death as in Psalm 88. Therefore we should be as David and quickly repent rather than others who stubbornly refuse correction and reap accordingly (such as Solomon). We all should have the mindset of Luke 21:36 but most believers don't.

Every single time the word perish is used in the New Testament , it is the Greek word apollumi , this word means to destroy totally .

This is likely because it is talking about God chastising his own (or His servants); He "scourges every son that He receives" as well as chastising them ( Hebrews 12:6). Better are the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy ( Proverbs 27:6).

We see what appears in Luke to be a discussion of those fellowservants who are warning about the coming of the Lord and are "beaten by their fellow servants" ( Luke 12:45). We see that verse 39 and 46 indicate a house being "broken into" and verse 46 talks about being assigned in a place with the hypocrites and cut into pieces. That would be metaphorical language fitting into missing the Rapture; and going through the fire of the Tribulation from the way I see it.

Isaiah 10:5-6 discusses the "Assyrian" God's method of chastisement (one code word for Antichrist) who is used to judge a "hypocritical nation." Hence there is ample reason to at least ascribe this message to Israel as a rebellious nation who doesn't recognize their King until they realize that the one they trusted in turns against them.

There are ignorant people in churches today who God may still save or make their garments white in the Tribulation. Whether these are left behind believers or new believers as part of the witnessing campaign of the 144,000 it is martyrdom that is the test of all who truly believe in Christ. Those who know better and yet are truly His own of course (as with teachers) have a greater responsibility; hence the Lord will have to deal with them more harshly. I look at the Tribulation as being a massive campaign by God for fruit production; which He will get one way or another to His satisfaction. The word Tribulation apparently is related to "Tribulum" or the wheat being ripened and harvested rapidly in the blistering sun. It is good to look at such events in relation to the big picture; the worst persecution brings the greatest glory; and will be used to turn Israel back to the true Savior ( Zech 12:12; Rev. 1:7).

It is true that Jesus talked in parables, but this chapter is teaching about our humbling ourselves as a little human child, becoming dead to sin, (which is being planted in the likeness of his death so we can be in the likeness of his resurrection). He talks about being converted which is the likeness of his resurrection in the chapter. When you say "All men died with Christ on the cross, all men were made alive by being resurrected with Christ". Do you believe that all men will be saved?

Thank you for the information I try hard to respond

God's Judgment

Luke 12:47,48

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Deuteronomy 25:1-3

If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked. And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

How do these passages fit with the conventional understanding that God's Judgment for the wicked is conscious existence and eternal suffering that never ends in a place called Hell?

Would we not expect God's punishment for the wicked to be consistent with His Law and have a limit?

Heaven part 6 concluding thoughts for now

Given the paucity of descriptions of what we shall do other than eternally praise; worship and serve Christ we are left to our imaginations in one sense. We also can have the general anticipation of doing all the things (except marriage and procreation) that we do in our earthly bodies now; but without sin and fulfilling an exponentially greater purpose. Many have surmised how we will continually gain in our knowledge; forever work on construction projects (perhaps in all parts of a new universe) and other such things.

Backing up a bit; until that time it seems to me a spurious concept that in heaven time doesn't currently exist. If heaven is a world or planet perhaps things are measured differently (as to the Lord a day is as a thousand years); but nonetheless with all the visions from heaven in the scriptures in Revelation there are specific time frames that mirror the book of Daniel. Truly God is beyond time; and perhaps in new bodies and without sin WE will conceive things differently. God however had His consecrated feasts at specific time intervals; primarily to reflect Christ in the future Passover as sacrifice; in Pentecost for the beginning of the church; etc. Angels such as the one in the story of Daniel 10:13 understood literal days; and the 360 day year was used in the time measurements to show the events to come such as the day Christ was to be crucified 483 years after the decree to build the Temple ( Daniel 9:25).

The dimensions of heaven are clear; but there is no proof it has to be a cube. It could be equidistant on its sides in any shape; really; perhaps shaped as the ancient Temple; or more rectangular with the 12 gates on each side. Just landing that City on earth would destroy things with the gravity of the moon and change the whole appearance of the earth.

As with any other scripture; literal viewpoints should supercede figurative ones unless evidence is clear that it is symbolic.

Heaven Part 5

There are details about the heavenly city appearing on earth such as in Psalm 48. This shows the fear of the kings of the earth; and would represent a Millennium event. In earlier posts I have discussed how we will rule much like David under Christ who will be the supreme authority during the 1000 year reign. There are other verses about the earth and its peoples which could encompass promises of either the Millennium or eternal Kingdom.

I have said before that the eternal nature of the earth seems to be proven by several verses and I had thought that was true about the sun and moon but Psalm 72 seems to indicate otherwise. It would seem to show the end of it at the end of the Millennium; no doubt part of the catastrophic destruction at the time. Ecclesiastes 1:4 and several other verses seem to indicate that the earth in some form remains forever. As to exactly how the new universe will be; or if anything exists other than heaven and a new earth is rather mysterious; however. It is very frightening to think of the lake of fire as being what happens when the elements (or atoms) are dissolved in 2 Peter 3:10; perhaps the lost are in an eternal body that is reduced to some strange broken down elemental state. Revelation 22:15 seems to indicate they are just outside the gate. Somehow it would seem that they are infinitely far away from the saints at that time; however as there will be no more crying on our part as Revelation 21:4 shows.

These changes no doubt will cause the sea to vaporize; hence no more sea ( Rev. 21:1). All in the sea will die in the Tribulation anyway (except that brought to life in the Dead Sea); see Revelation 16:3; and Ezekiel 47:10 with surrounding verses on that context. Again in heaven we shall behold Him and see His marks as Thomas did; the prophecy in Genesis 3:15 had eternal ramifications. We ever shall be reminded of what He did for us.

Heaven part 4

It is hard to imagine the earth without Satan and his oppressive regime as a sort of underground usurper; particularly without man learning the art of war anymore ( Isaiah 2:4). Satan; of course will try to destroy the encampment of God on earth (which will be populated by us no doubt) and will come to a quick end being thrown in the lake of fire with his earlier cohorts he used for his own purposes over 1000 years before.

When we understand how there will be those saints of all "dispensations" in heaven from the O.T. and N.T. as well as those martyrs who will be resurrected from the Tribulation later to rule as well ( Rev. 7:9). There are disputes on the timing of what constitutes the firstfruits (I tend to think it is several phases); but the point is all these groups will be represented in heaven. And I have stated in earlier posts that the implication of the Great White Throne Judgment is that some will be in the Book of Life; certainly the PHYSICAL survivors allowed into the Millennium who remained faithful; as well as those descendants wo don't rebel and are true believers will have to be accounted for and hence will be translated if they live out the whole 1000 years without dying (at least it would appear so unless instantly killed then resurrected when the elements are melted). 2 Peter 3:10.

Jesus assured His disciples that He is God of the living ( Matt. 22:32-34) which again eliminates soul sleep and shows where the souls of the departed are (as Revelation also does in Rev. 6:9; later resurrected in Rev. 20:4). The final proof here of consciousness after the grave is the Transfiguration; as well as the example of Lazarus and the rich man (the only parable mentioning a given name hence to be taken literally).

It is harder to conceive in some ways the physical component of our state as resurrected saints than it is of the spiritual; if we think about it for a minute. We live in faith now of who we haven't seen but we shall see him.

Heaven part 3

Rewards in heaven

Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.

I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.

These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).

To be continued.

Heaven Part 2

In my last post; I talked about Peter. He was revealed who Christ was which could only have come from the Father ( Matt. 16:17).

The HOLINESS of God is talked about frequently; perhaps easiest remembered in Revelation 4:8-11 (also found in Isaiah 6:3).

When the Bible describes judgment; and hell viewed on earth such as in Isaiah 66 there is no appreciation of the wicked for His Holiness or any other attributes. Our life as believers is hidden in Christ ( Colossians 3:3) and the verse also talks about how we must be "crucified with Christ". Those who believe have truly "passed from death to life" ( John 5:24 with further insights in 1 John as well). So that is the difference; we have either the eternal state of our spiritual condition to be in our fallen sin which is totally blind to His glory and only focused on self; or we are new creations which are now able to glorify God in heaven (and we start now by being seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Therefore we begin now; to rule and reign with Him in a sense-it is a done deal as Romans 8:30; and Ephesians 1:13 states.

Isaiah 53:11 states that He will see the travail of His soul and be satisfied; quoting a verse from an entire CHAPTER on Christ which is the famous chapter Jews like to ignore because of clear Messianic descriptions matching that of Christ. His satisfaction therefore will be in ruling and reigning WITH us; with the sons of glory (sort of combining Hebrews 2:10 with the concept of Romans 8:17.) He did it to please the Father first and foremost; but also of course has been given all authority on heaven and earth. ( Matt. 28:18). It is strange to conceive ourselves in a similar way; but nonetheless being part of the firstfruits we also suffer for a time then are glorified and rewarded ( 1 Peter 5:10).

Obviously; as we look to the concept of varying amounts of rewards for either the wicked (punishment) we have the same idea in regard to the saved. ( 1 Cor. 3:15). more in part3

When were you saved? and what were you saved from?

You were saved from DEATH.

The wages of sin is death.

You died on the cross; with Christ, you were raise a NEW CREATION, with Christ.

You were saved at the resurrection.

You were GIFTED with the LIFE of CHRIST, being raise together.

No one can lose their salvation, eternal life (salvation), being raised with Christ, is a gift of God; Chris is THE RESURRECTION, given to man, 2000 years ago, it was finished at the cross, nothing can to be added, nor anything taken away, God's GRACE was poured out on his creation, Christ took upon himself the full WRATH of God, we had part in that wrath by dying on the cross with Christ, yet we didn't have to physically endue that suffering.

The kingdom of God is not a place (heaven); but a condition, being ONE (in the presence) with the Father and Son.

God is in a physical PLACE; HE is the LIFE of ALL MEN, ye are the BODY of Christ.

Christ's SECOND coming was in the BODY of all men, raise together; Christ is still on this earth in THE FLESH, YOU are the Body of Christ.

This mortal shall PUT ON IMMORTALITY .....

1 Timothy 6:16 Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY .....

Ye are the BODY of Christ .....

Proverbs 16:6 BY MERCY and TRUTH iniquity is purged ....

John 14:6 I AM the way, the TRUTH, and the LIFE ....

There is ONLY ONE LIFE; Christ, ye are the BODY of Christ.

God bless you.

Matthew chapter 10 verse 28 : fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell . The Greek word is apollumi and it literally means to destroy fully and completely . It does not say 'send ' both soul and body .

Richard,

This is not an incidental or academic question.

We never should interpret scripture by our experience. But we can and should look at our experiences and those things happening around us based on scripture.

God is very clear about adding or taking away from the Bible in Rev. 22:18,19.

Some would argue that if what we believe we receive in a dream or a vision that does not "add" to what the Bible declares, that somehow can be from God. However, in writing the Bible God often repeats scriptural teaching and even repeats specific verses. And each time He did this God was ADDING to His Word, the Bible.

There is so much in the Bible that no one will fully understand everything in our lifetime. Why would we want to test God with and extra revelation of any kind?

The BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY is the ONLY Word of God.

Heaven Part One

Recently a book on the subject (apparently there were several) was studied in small group; in this case one by Randy Alcorn. There were some questions on one of his video shorts and not total agreement; nonetheless other segments and much written in the book seem scripturally solid.

What we see in scripture shows how saints of God will; at least after the Tribulation and what I believe eschatologically to be the Millennium (and certainly for eternity afterwards) be ruling and reigning on earth. The difference will be in the New Jerusalem being above earth rather than on earth as happens in Revelation 21. I will note that it is the New Jerusalem; not the entire planet or place where heaven is that comes to earth. It would seem that would remain somewhere else. Ezekiel 1:22 seem to suggest an expanse of ice; M.J. Agee seems to think the location is identifiable. For the sake of avoiding unnecessary controversy I will keep the basic premise that it is somewhere beyond our physical universe.

The key; again is scripture; Jesus stated that "you know where I am going." ( John 14:4-6). The issue where was that they had seen God in Christ who was a member of the Trinity and always did the Father's will. How to get there of course is through the narrow gate which all but the son of Perdition could enter of the 12 Disciples ( Matthew 7:13-14). This is perhaps the biggest point that needs to be hammered home. Other than believing in a literal heaven as being a priority we also need to realize that only by His righteousness can we pass from death to life and most will take the wide road to destruction. That necessitates elimination of any universalist sentiments. I have stated before the concept of 2 Corinthians 7:10 where godly sorrow brings repentance rather than the type Judas Iscariot had as to sadness on the consequences of his actions. Peter showed true repentance because he knew He had betrayed the Son of God who he truly loved.

Jesus said these things are hid from the wise and prudent but only revealed unto babes.... Mat. 11:25....Which is that born of the spirit the H.G. As we have born the image of the earthly we must also bear (birth) the image of the heavenly which is the H.G....Which is our new innerman that has to be born in us via the seed of the sower a spiritual Seed/being.....10 times in the New Testament its tells us about birthing a new innerman....Which is that New Creature the H.G.....But when something is Hid by God ...Nobody can find it....6 k yrs have gone by and the world don't understand this New Covenant of multiplication of Christ seed....Gen.22:17....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven.....Thats y the sower has to go forth and sow his precious seed in humanity.....Resulting in the book being opened and us being bornagain of his incorruptible seed....The living word not the written word....Thats y Jeremiah saw all men in travail and birth pains....We are gonna birth a baby Christ which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME....Why do we refer to the H.G. AS THE PROMISE?....Simply b/c the H.G. is the multiplication of Christ in us.....Remember the multiplication of Christ seed was that great Promise....God was so passionate about this multiplication of Christ that he swore by his very self....Thats when the woman in Rev 12:5 is giving birth to the Children of Promise....And thats when satan the dragon wants kill the woman and her Children.....Simply b/c its the manchild the H.G. the spirit of truth that Judges the prince of this world....Its the womans Child the H.G. that reproves this world of sin and righteousness and Judgement .....But the Child the spirit of truth cannot speak of himself simply b/c he has just been born in us....He is just a spritual infant....That New born babe desiring the sincere milk of the word is the H.G....The multiplication of Christ Jesus in us.....OK LEMME GO

Heaven Intro conclusion.

In conclusion to my introduction on matters such as heaven and hell; I will say that I am confined here to whatever the moderators deem necessary parameters. I could eliminate specific examples or references from my personal life or others I have researched if it is needed to better focus on the Word itself. As I just stated in my last introduction posting; there is nothing against scripture to be tolerated; and I will also say not to ADD to it. These are not as the audience is probably aware an attempt to add to "thus saith the Lord" or the 66 books of the Bible. If I ever present something that is clearly not scriptural then I would be the first one to want to be rebuked. On such matters as the Holy Spirit; for example I have tried to emphasize the focus of a John 16:8 mentality. I also promise to try my hardest to find error and expose it whenever it comes to anybody's testimony from their personal lives; or even my own viewpoints. As to my posting on hell; I hope the verses Mr. Weise quoted come even close to anyone else as to scriptural knowledge; as with any other subject such as heaven. I will dogmatically say that there is no room for the soul sleep theory and that is found with the difference in the Hebrew word for the grave (qeber) vs for the abode of the dead (sheol). I believe we can perceive through discernment into the spiritual realm; again Mr. Weise did not have an NDE or die and he stated as such. There are those who claim that they were clinically dead for some time; certainly a few of these cases can be proven true. It would seem some insight into that dimension would be seen at that point; sans a final destiny and judgment being that they are able to come back.

Anyway as to heaven; of course many of the same issues come up which are errors such as the five things mentioned in my last hell posting. There is less on the subject in scripture it would appear than on hell; but I will glean what I can

Heaven: The true story

Introduction: I am answering in general the concept brought up with the comments on my last posting on hell. I will just say that experientially; we are living out in the Spirit the truths in scripture. In that sense we all shall be "taught by God" ( John 6:45).

In the N.T. there were events such as the famine predicted by Agabus; and words of knowledge such as the man who grabbed Paul and said in such a manner he would be taken away if he went to Jerusalem. In these two cases certain actions would determine the outcome; namely preparation of the Saints in the first example; and choosing to go to death if needed by Paul. We all must have some personal relationship with the Lord not just know about Him; or even just believe in all the proper doctrines. I will be the first to say here that ANY experience which clearly contradicts scripture cannot be taken as valid.

However; there are many cases where I have seen the Lord work in dreams and visions; such as my former Pastor who told me from missionaries he knew personally on the field that in one case EVERY single person who was being reached in an Islamic nation for Christ had had some sort of dream or vision of Christ. Such is also the case on literature that I have read from the 1950's as to more "charismatic" or signs and wonder gifts. In the Tribulation there clearly will be the Joel 2 events again with dreams and visions; not to mention all the miracles by the two prophets as well as warnings of judgment to come.

I have personally seen someone delivered of a demon who was given a Word of knowledge of the name of the entity affecting hi and was subsequently successfully delivered by this person who had that insight. I consider deliverance a necessary miraculous event today; and in fact had prayed that my church would have that sort of ministry at the time.

I won't force anyone here to hold to my viewpoint; but want to adhere to scripture as best as I can see it.

***Corrected***

Richard,

We should pay no attention whatsoever to any testimony regarding anything spiritual that includes some out of body experience or direct message from God such as a voice or a vision or a tongue. While that was possible prior to God completing the Bible as God spoke directly to some and actually appeared in some form to various individuals as He was "writing" the Bible, once the Bible was completed with the book of Revelation, God very specifically prohibits any of that from happening again. As we read in Rev 22:18,19.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

God is not speaking directly to anyone today in a dream or a voice or a vision or a tongue or in some "out of body" experience. We can be absolutely certain of that. The only message directly from God today is in the BIBLE ALONE and in its ENTRITY as God the Holy Spirit would lead us into Truth. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".