Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 324

My input on "eternal security".

Having gone to some lengths in discussing subjects such as Predestination and things related to this subject I thought I would

present some logic to consider this concept. A primary idea that I have discussed elsewhere is related to Galatians 2:20. To live in new life necessitates a DEATH blow to our old self. If not then we are still trying to do things in our own strength; and since we cannot save ourselves (see Titus 3:5) there is no way to please God in the flesh. Clearly this doesn't spell the end of our struggles on earth; as Paul states in Romans 7:23. Interestingly; he mentions the word "law" in regard to both the pull of the flesh that remains AND that of the Spirit of God; we see similar verses describing war between the desires of the flesh and that of the Spirit in Galatians 5:17.

Serving the Lord; therefore must be out of the love and resulting obedience in God. It has to surpass our human desires; no matter how noble they may seem. It counters our own loves and hates and brings us into conformity with Christ through the Spirit so that we can especially LOVE our ENEMIES which is not possible in the same way with our flesh. We could conceivably

tolerate a wicked man or be in submission out of fear but not seek his deliverance and serve selflessly expecting nothing in return in our own strength. As I have stated in other posts as well we also warn the wicked of their calamity; and that includes all those who seemingly are kind and compassionate; FRIENDS and enemies as well. As showing love toward mean people is impossible; we also have to warn those who seem like "good people" as well; despite our flesh trying to make our relationship with them (wife; husband; mother; father or best friend) seem to somehow absolve them from the fate of all of the rest of mankind.

So in this posting I am stating that our works (i.e. good fruits) as well as thoughts and what we say display whether He is truly in us.

Hello Momsage

Let's start a conversation on a topic that I am not really happy to start because it confuses a lot of people,but at the end I think it would be good to clarify some things.

So what do you think "God inspired scripture means"?. Some people believe that it means that every single word in the Bible is placed there by God, something like God dictated or took the mind and hand of people to write the scriptures. So what are your thoughts about it?

Hello Gerald

I don't think any of us said that it is necessary to speak Hebrew and Greek to be able to understand the scriptures properly, that is impossible anyway. There was just a confusion on why some Bibles, like the KJV, use the word "world" in Matthew 28:20 while other, like the NIV, use the word "age or time" instead. And I think we came up with a good explanation.

My belief is that all those scholars and theologians who speak those languages have done that job for us translating the original scriptures so we are now able to read and understand the Word of God. And I think nobody doubts that if the Holy Spirit does not shed light in vain we read the Scriptures.

GBU

Thank you Momsage for clarifying your first comment. When you stated your response to "those who have troubled themselves with creating the once saved always saved doctrine", it sounded like this was your primary reason for writing what you did. But if I avoid that comment, then yes, I can see what you intending to state, that every repentant sinner will never be shunned by God. Apologies for the misunderstanding & every blessing.

Hi Ronald: No worries. I'm not offended, but I'm absolutely confused why you keep correcting the Holy Ghost's writing of the bible. If He thought the creek word aion translated better into age then world He would have had it translated that way. That was the reason for my sarcasm and I'm sure He knew there were some Creek words that won't translat into English but what does that have to do with anything. In 2 Timothy 2:15 when God tells us to diligently study I believe He meant His true word not a dozen other books of Hebrew or Creek or whatever if it makes us think we know better then God how a word could have been translated in a better way. God Bless :)

Hi Chris: you missed the point. I have come to realized that it doesn't matter if you believe in once saved always saved or not or I believe in once saved always saved or not the bottom line is that there is a sinner who needs Jesus and it's up to us to help them find Him. God Bless : )

Is the sprinkling of water a true baptism?

Hello Momsage. The 'Once saved Always saved' belief isn't something created, rather found in the God's Word. You have recently alluded to the Work of the Holy Spirit in the translation of the Scriptures (particularly the KJB). And so too, the Work of the Holy Spirit must be commenced, continued, & completed in the life of a person now IN Christ. If this isn't so, then the one claiming & believing to be a Christian is misinformed or deluded.

Your statement that "If a person lives a life of a true believer then they are saved. If a person lives a life of sin then they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved", is true but simplistic. What it is lacking, is God's Work of salvation, of placing the seal of His Spirit in us, of securing, of adoption, of power, of correction even death. It might be one thing when we can observe a person who shows all the marks of a faithful Christian & we believe & accept that person as part of God's family. But it becomes quite another thing to know what the unseen life of the person actually is and how faithful he will be under temptation, persecution, or death. We may not know the person's state, but God knows & I believe, the 'Christian' himself will know.

The other aspect of this errant belief is that a Christian can be saved, yet step in and out of the faith, at will. Can we ever assume that God can be played with, with His Holy Spirit popping in & out of a person according to one's estrangement from the Lord & subsequent repentance? I don't see this happening anywhere in Scripture, rather that we remain very diligent in the salvation given us ( Philippians 2:12), not for fear of losing it, but to avoid the correction & discipline of the Lord ( Hebrews 12:5-11) when we sin; or even having to lose our lives if correction goes unheeded so that our spirits might yet be saved ( 1 Corinthians 5:1-5).

The Lord's Work is always gracious towards His children - He knows those who are His - He won't let us go.

Hi Momsage,

I don't take it as sarcastic; your posts show your love and support for Scripture, and I am sorry if what I posted has offended you in any way. I rely solely on the Holy Spirit for my understanding, and I believe I said that in my post. In Greek, there are sometimes no English words or any other language that have the same meaning and we must be guided by the Holy Spirit for the true meaning regardless of the translated Bible we have. The Bible has been translated into many different languages and whatever language a person speaks or reads the Holy Spirit will guide them to the true meaning regardless of the translation.

God bless,

RLW

Thanks Giannis!

You are always a great help.

I wasn't aware of 'ktisis"

Great stuff.

God bless.

hi Momsage

The Holy Spirit inspires people in many ways. One way is as Giannis and S. Spencer have demonstrated here by providing pertinent information according to one's expertise in a certain area to help others understand a Scripture verse or word. We cannot really judge that another person is not sending a message by the inspiration of the Spirit (not in the sense of inspiring sacred writing) but instead allow for the Spirit to work in others in ways that build up the body of Christ, as Giannis and S. Spencer are doing.

But perhaps you were speaking of how the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture, and I know that Giannis and S. Spencer, and you, and I and most on this forum believe that. We do need to keep in step with the Holy Spirit in all of our ways and words and be leadable.

How awesome is our Lord and God who has provided for us so much in every aspect of our lives! All praise to Him always!

Seems like the inspiration of the Holy Spirit got lost somewhere in your discussions.

"The Greek word aion was translated in the KJV 37 times as world, sometimes world works, and sometimes age would be a better choice," Maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit why He made a bad choice by writing it that way? I'm sure He would appreciate you pointing that out to Him. Not being sarcastic to upset any one, just making a point. God Bless :)

This is in response to those who have troubled themselves with creating the once saved always saved doctrine. If a person lives a life of a true believer then they are saved. If a person lives a life of sin then they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved. So it doesn't matter if they believe they were once saved and backslide or you believe they were never really saved. God won't turn away a sinner whether they were saved before or not. So there really is no argument. Jesus will forgive a repentant sinner. Period

Hey Jaz,

Hope you don't mind.

I read and study the KJV, and I have read parts of other Bibles, Michaelswiger gave good information on what manuscripts were used, and if we study the history of the Bible other things and texts like the Bishop Bible were also considered. Giannis and S Spencer have also given good responses on the Greek words. I trust the KJV as the word of God and what He means for us to understand is there, but we must trust the Holy Spirit will guide us.

Aion means life span, age, or epoch, it is the source of our English words age and eon. It describes any length of clearly defined time, whether one person's life or some era of certain renown. As a general point of reference, this word may also apply to the vast span of history: the ages, the times of old.

I agree, with the word's age and world for English-speaking people our understanding can be different. The Greek word aion was translated in the KJV 37 times as world, sometimes world works, and sometimes age would be a better choice, I can send you the verses if you want to study them. Like Matt. 24:3 with the context and what the disciples knew at that time and what Jesus just told them about the temple the word world insinuates they are asking Jesus about His second coming.

If we compare Matt. 24:3 with Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 what is written in Matthew with them still thinking Jesus was going to set up the kingdom instead of the end of the world, the end of the age would fit better. The context of the chapter and comparing what is written in each gospel about the same thing helps me.

All translations or transliterations are not perfect, but God is and what He wants us to know He will show us through the Spirit of truth. Take Matt. 28:19, the commission, if we compare it to Mark 16:15 Luke 24:47, and what we read in the rest of the New Testament what do we see?

God bless,

RLW

Hi Spencer and Jaz

It is true that it is surprizing also to me that the grk word "aion" (age/time) is used sometimes in the NT instead of the word "world" because in modern grk it means "century". So I have done a research and came up that in ancient grk it had the meaning apart from "a very long period of time", it also had the meaning of "the period of time a person lives".

So it was used in conjuction to people"s lives. And it seems that sometimes (but not always) the writers of the NT use it for the time that this world/humanity exists. And with that meaning it is used in Mat 28. With the same meaning it also used by Luke in Luke 16:8, by Paul in Rom 12:2 and Ephesians 6:12 where Paul talks about the "rulers of the darkness of this world" , where the word "age/time" is used for "world".

But in other verses the world "kosmos" which is the actual grk word for "world" is used, ie in John 18:20, also John 16:11 where John talks about "the prince of this world". (compare it with Ephesians 6:12 that talks about the same thing). So as a final conclusion those two words are interchanged for "world".

Spencer:

"Kosmos" in anc grk means "mankind, humanity". In mod grk it means everything, people, animals, plants. land.

"Oikoumene" means the places/land on earth where people are living.

Also the word "ktisis" is used for world, it means "creation".

Well this is enough with lessons in Greek. Confusing? We have to trust those scholars who have done a very good job in translating the NT. There isn't a perfect translation, all translations lack in some things, even modern greek can not match with ancient greek in meanings. As a conclusion all translations are more or less good. There is no actual error when other words are used as long as the meaning of the text is right. Some go word for word, others not, but there are more understandable than the former ones. Everybody has their favourite translation. We can always use 2 or more when we are not sure what it is meant. GBU

Jaz.

For some reason a letter is being omitted from my text.

The Greek word is aion.

Greek and Hebrew. There is creeping into the church the idea that if only you know the Hebrew and Greek of scripture yiu will understand it's true meaning . This is false . " For what knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man? Likewise then what knoweth the things of God save the Spirit of God"

For was not Hebrew tye mother tongue of the pharaseees? Yet how+many understood the scriptures? As they should have ben understood ? And did not persecute Jesus by their understanding ? " Ye boast in the s ruptures the Lord said but know not Him of whom they speak"

And Saul of Tarsus did he not know Greek and Hebrew? Yet did he understand the scriptures as they should be understood ? NO . Inso far by his lack of understanding he persecuted tye church and was in agreement with Stephens death

" All scripture is inspired by God " therefore if the Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men so to write the scriptures then in the same measure the Holy Spirit is needed to understand what is written .

And without Him we will inevitably go astray be it in English ,Hebrew or Greek .

GB

Hi.

Thanks again for replying.

I hope I didn't upset you.

That's not my intentions.

I didn't give a interpretation on the verse.

I was just giving the original Greek word that the "king James" drew from. (ain)

Here is what Giannis stated;

'In Greek: "eos(until) tes(of) synteleias(completition) tou(of) aionos(time,age)." With the word "time or age" it is meant the "time or age of this world"

Jaz, unless I am missing something, I believe I am in agreement with Giannis what word is used out of the other Greek words that could have been used.

Here's how the strongs have it brought over from the "KJV.

Greek:

Transliteration: ain

Pronunciation: ahee-ohn'

Definition: From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age course eternal (for) ever (-more) [n-]ever (beginning of the while the) world (began without end). Compare.

GB

If you took two long pieces of string and both starting at th same place but one a half a degree off from the other . At the beginning they both look like they are going to the same place . But as they both progress a gap begins to emerge between them and continues to grow as the sting gets longer . In the end the gap will be too wide to cross .

The introduction o the KJV is worth reading . It is not scripture but Ives reveal the thinking and hearts of those who did the translations . If you read the introduction of many a new ' vision' even the ' New KJV ' they boast of their " better understanding "" . But reveal from the very first verse Genesis 1:1 they understand very little .

P

A statement of fact .

Verse 2 . And the EARTH was without form and void.." Everything from verse 2 onwards iis speaking only of the Earth .

It was not the heaveN that was in darkness But the earth . " for heaven need no sun or moon o God is the light thereof

An was not God who needed light ,for Go light nd in Him there is no darkness nor shadow of turning "

But it is Man who needs the light of heaven

Hello Bibleman,

i will be praying for your Mom.

Just for you information, it is common for elderly people with UTI's to be a bit delirious..

Using the word age doesn't change the meaning intended . Sadly , the meaning intended is not always discerned , especially by those new to reading the Bible and those who have already been exposed to false doctrine . The word ' age ' in English , can mean era and some will interpret it that way . If there is room for dispute over the meaning of a word , you can bet it will occur . Jesus says ' I am with you alway ' then , when ' age ' comes after that , he might , to some readers , set a time limit , which might appear as a contradiction . Using the word ' world ' is way more accurate , as Brother Giannis explained so perfectly . ' Age ' and ' world ' can be interpreted very differently and there's no need to say ' age ' when ' world ' is definitely what is meant . I know some people ,who call themselves Christians , who have no idea that this world is going to change beyond recognition . The word ' age ' could encourage ignorance of the Truth and that's not good . Anyone who deliberately and knowingly changes the Truth into a lie is in big trouble , blind leaders of the blind and they both end up in the pit . It's hard to believe that there are such people but we know there are , Christ has told us that these people exist and they will do great harm . We can all make mistakes but , we can be assured that God knows our hearts , so He knows when we have made a genuine error that we will eventually realise and be corrected , He also knows if we are deliberately twisting His Word to meet our own agenda . May God bless us all with patience and determination to enable us to stay on the right path , the road to His Kingdom on His earth . God bless all on this forum who wish to learn from , support and encourage each other in the love of Christ our Sinless Redeemer .

Psalms

Chapter 150

1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Hi Jaz.

Firstly let me say I prefer the King James translation.

With that being said, Let me ad on to what Giannis has shared.

When we as English speaking people, when we see the word world we are thinking of the physical world at large.

I believe there is a Greek word for that, and it's oikoumen. "land that is the (terrene part of the) globe;

You will find the word world used this way in Matthew 24:14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the WORLD for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

In Matthew 28:20 in the Greek the word used for world is "eos" (time,age) its an Era or time period.

"kosmos" is also used for the word world, and you will see it used in John 8:23. "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this WORLD.

kosmos is defined as

"orderly arrangement that is decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense including its inhabitants.

These greek words have different meanings and can not be interchanged.

Using the word age in Matthew 28:20 doesn't change the meaning intended.

God bless

Thank you for that Brother , would you agree that just using the word ' age ' doesn't convey the actual meaning and that one word could cause confusion and misinterpretation ? The two words ' age ' and ' world ' , in that context , would imply to very different things I think . Whenever I look at a different ' translation ' , I always go straight to the end of Matthew , so far I'm going to be sticking with the KJV . At least it is an actual translation , not just a revision of a previous one .

Hi REALTKING9

In the parable of the Sower ( Matthew 13), Jesus tells us a tale in which a Sower (God/Jesus) sows good seed (His word) in various soils (hearts of various people). In each of those 4 cases described the Sower is the same, the seed is the same, good seed, but the result depends not on the Sower, neither on the seed but on the soil, the heart of every individual person. Some people have hearts like paths, hard soil, hard heart, which does not receive inside it the seed/Word of God. Others are enthusiastic, others have good heart but afterwards they turn to secular things and don't produce any fruit, and in the last case there are those who receive the word of God in good heart and eventually grow spiritually. So the final outcome does not depend on God but on the individual. God on His side does everything He should do but if the person is not willing to obey Him nothing can be done. Simply God knows beforehand who is going to receive the salvation He offers and according to our response to Him He chooses one or not. A friendly advice from me. In my christian life so far I have realized that sometimes it is not good to rely on a single verse to understand something but the whole Word of God has to be taken into account to get the right picture of something. GBU

Sorry for that "completition". It was meant to be "completion".

Hi Jaz

Sorry for intervening but just for your information the last verse in Matthew 28 is precisely:

In Greek: "eos(until) tes(of) synteleias(completition) tou(of) aionos(time,age)." With the word "time or age" it is meant the "time or age of this world". So the meaning in simple English is "until this world is completed(comes to an end)"

GBU

Calvinism is from John 15:16 "ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

If you do not believe that God chose you, then that is fine. Just do not call a Liar!

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42 KJV

Remember me, remember me, O' Lord, please remember member us. We need thee O' we need thee, every hour, we need thee, O' bless us now our Saviour, we come to thee...In Jesus Christ Name, we pray. Amen.