Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 4

Hello Tdianne,

(Part 1):

I would like to share my thoughts concerning your question. You ask about a true baptism. What is a true baptism? What does that even mean? If we are only speaking of water baptism, there are so many different beliefs on water baptism in the church today. Some sprinkle, some immerse, some dunk once, and some dunk three times. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and some say the only valid baptism is in "Jesus' name only." So, where does that leave us? It leaves us "scratching our heads" and asking ourselves which one is the correct way?

Before I go any further, I just want to say that whatever way a person chooses to be water baptized is up to them and the Lord. I myself believe it should be by full immersion as it was in the early church. But this is just my belief and please allow me to explain why I believe this way.

If I go all the way back to the book of Exodus, I see that baptism began with Moses. Now the person who was doing the baptizing, he wouldn't touch anybody. He's just the witness. Baptizing in those days was that you go under yourself and come up yourself. The witness is just there to say you didn't make it because some part of your body didn't go completely under the water. It could have been a person's ear or maybe their hair was not under the water. The witness would be there to make sure they went all the way under the water. If not, they had to do it all over.

Conclusions for now on assurance of salvation and "eternal security".

I have gone on for some length now on an attempt to best explain the doctrines of grace as to Predestination along with our responsibility to respond to the Lord's promptings at every stage; from His initial calling to us to be saved to our deathbed.

It is clear that sin can affect us and even destroy our witness and end our life prematurely; but someone truly saved; although making it as though through the fire will not LOSE their salvation.

As to assurance of salvation we have understanding with the MIND of Christ ( 1 Cor. 2:16); thus just as natural man knows and understands that he exists and is conscious of the world around him; a true believer is aware of the Lord living in him as His sheep hear His voice and know Him and will not follow another ( John 10:27-28).

There are warnings in scripture as pertaining to those who would claim miracles in Christ's name and yet aren't saved. Surely Judas Iscariot would be one example of this. For someone who is out for themselves it doesn't matter to them whether it is God or the Devil who is making these supernatural phenomenon occur. It brings money; prestige; influence etc to those who are propegating falsehood (megachurch type persona especially) and naturally the goats want to rake in the financial benefits (decieving and being decieved ( 2 Tim. 3:13). This is more than the case of the Corinthians who were in disorder utilizing spiritual gifts for if we read carefully it was not for false manifestations or for the gifts themselves that they were reprimanded.

Hopefully this series of postings brings encouragement to someone. Doctrine matters; but indeed it is the case that the more we know the more questions can seem to arise. The truth is we can't totally understand the Lord or His truths. We can take confidence in God's covenants as He never breaks them and in that mindset know that a true believer has passed from death to life

Further insights on my last hypothesis

I am trying with this subject not to go to the extreme of saying that anything we do can save ourselves. What I will say is that what we do can bring us into condemnation at least until He truly lives within us; and we are truly saved. I will also state that EVERY step to salvation is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Even hearing the message which has the potential to bring someone to salvation is confined to this life; we don't get any second chances after we die.

We all start out in this life hearing the Gospel message and responding one way or another. We have to ask how the Spirit works in each part of the process. I will state that scripture seems to make it clear that even if we don't understand the mysteries of the church and how the Spirit indwells someone who is a believer prior to salvation no one in hell from all scripture we see on the subject is there without sins convicting their consciences in this life. Hearing the Word causes a reaction for anyone hearing it; whether believing or rejecting it. One can come to Christ after hearing the Word multiple times (as I did) but the person once they hear it and understand in their minds cannot say they are unaware of the basic truths of the Gospel; that is if presented correctly. I believe that true repentance only comes from the Lord but as 2 Corinthians 7:10 states that repentance leads TO salvation (see also 2 Timothy 2:25 on God GRANTING repentance). Logically; a person must HEAR the word; then have true repentance and then act on it. I would argue at that stage repentance first involves a DESIRE then definite ACTION to turn away from sin; and more importantly our former LIFESTYLE of sin. Also; a true believer continues in the faith until the end; but for some that involves God having to severely discipline a person; and as Corinthians states; some have "fallen asleep" taking communion unworthily; others are given over to Satan but still saved.

Giannis

part 2.

Just to finish up my thought. If someone who was baptized as an infant grows up believing in Jesus and knows the truth about how they are saved through Him, as I was the case for me, do not need to be rebaptized, but can if they wish. Someone who was baptized as an infant who grew up in faith and departs from the faith, they may wish to be re-baptized when they return to the Lord. It isn't baptism that is the heart of the matter, but regeneration and confession of one's faith in Jesus as Savior that is most important. How God brings that about in each person may differ in areas of: age at which one consciously believes the gospel, church practices chosen by one's parents when one was an infant or a child, etc,

I am glad I was baptized as an infant by parents who believed that God does work in and through baptism of their children, because whatever is not of faith is not valid. God honors the concern for their childrens' salvation and intention to bring them up in the faith. The Holy Spirit works in the lives of children baptized young to keep them growing in faith He provides.

Salvation is all of God and not of man, so we should have peace about the means of baptism, trusting God loves all He draws to Him whether from infancy and chlldhood or later as teens or adults. We can acknowledge that God is working out His will in the lives of such and know that He continues His work of shaping believers over time.

Hello Giannis, I do agree with you that baptism should be by immersion most of the time, But in the years following the apostles in the early second century, there were allowances made for baptizing people when deeper water was not available. Unfortunately, over the centuries, baptism by full immersion was slowly fazed out to the point that sprinkling became the norm over immersion. The Greek word for baptism, as you said does mean to immerse. During the reformation years, the anabaptists began to reinstitute full immersion for baptism. The problem arose in their declaring that only those fully immersed in "believer's baptism" were truly baptized validly. Therefore meaning that all who had been baptized by sprinkling and/or as infants and children were not validly baptized and so needed to be rebaptized. This stance cause a great deal of division within the reformation church.

I wish that in today's churches that baptism by immersion was the norm, but this is not the case and I am not one to demand as being invalid any of the baptisms that occurred in ways that differ from the anabaptists then and of today. The normal ways that the apostles baptized and celebrated the Lord's Supper have slowly changed over the early centuries to the point that we do not know how they really performed these ordinances. So, I think the important thing is that after one is converted that they should seek to be baptized as a profession and witness to the saving work of the Holy Spirt inn regeneration and of Jesus on the cross, and of the Father who draws us to Christ. Anyone who is old enough to be aware of their conversion to Christ can make the choice to be baptized. But many people die after conversion and before they were baptized and that does not exclude them from the kingdom of God. Also, those who were baptized as infants and come to understand their conversion do not need to be re-baptized as the anabaptists insist. They can if they wish. see part 2

Hi Chris: You are right and I sincerely apologize. I did mean it that way and I shouldn't have said that. So I hope you will forgive me and I'll keep trying, through the Lord, to do better in my comments. :( God Bless :)

Luke 6 says in these two verses: 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

And John 14:23

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Proverbs 8:36 states that those who hate God love death (that is also somewhere in John I believe).

I am going out on a limb here somewhat; but I would say that in the context of verses in John and 1 John that indicate

evidence of saving faith is loving the brethren that would necessitate as with these other passages that first there is in

the individual a hearing of the Word of God. That would be probably what scripture would define as calling someone; or the "general call". The parable of the seed and the sower shows that; with the exception of the one in stony ground that Satan steals immediately; there is a process where BEFORE fruit comes to maturity there is a testing of trials as well as worldly temptations to try to thwart fruit coming to maturity.

At the very least; this proves that some come to faith and immediately begin to grow when they first hear the Gospel and others fall away. It also shows the third possibility such as is illustrated in Matthew 21:29-31 about two sons; one of whom says he won't follow but later does; and vice versa. This could be insight as to those who appear to be averse to conversion but later come to faith; along with a warning of those who only make a VERBAL assent but don't have a heart change as indicated by Romans 10:9. I haven't heard this analysis but think there is some merit to it; as anyone who falls away short of producing good fruit appears NOT to be saved in reality. Could part of being saved be our reaction to the testing of God? This could be a key factor many are missing and these verses show deeds follow words.

Hello Tdianne

My belief differs from GiGi's as I believe that a person has to be immersed in water during the water baptism.

In Colossians 2:11-12 it says

"11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

In Romans 6:3:7 it says:

"3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7.For he that is dead is freed from sin.".

So the baptism in water signifies the burial of the old sinful man and the raise of the new man. The baptism is actually the burial of the old dead sinful man. To be buried with Christ into His death one has to be fully immersed in His death/grave/water.

Sorry but sprinkling with water, in my opinion, means nothing. On top of that the word baptism which originates from greek means immersion/going under. In the Book of Acts (9:26-40) we can read the story with Philipp and that eunuch. Another story is John's baptism. In the NT we don't see anybody to be water baptized by sprinkling. GBU

Daniel 2:40-49

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44And in the days of these kings shall the GOD of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall BREAK IN PIECES and CONSUME all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

48 Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.

49 Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

Get ready

Tdiane,

If you were baptized into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, AND you believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, the baptism is valid, whether by immersion or sprinkling.

Christina,

I am happy to pray for you today.

Heavenly Father, we come before You today in the name of Your Son, Jesus our Lord asking for healing and peace for Christina. Lift up her spirit and heal her mind from the unhealthy thoughts of depression. Take back what the devil has stolen from Christina that she may be joyful in You and hope in You. Lead her in the reading of Your Word that she may be encouraged and be filled with praise for You. Prevent Christina from slipping deeper into depression but instead bring her out of it. We ask this of You, Father, because You are near to the faint of heart and those broken in their spirit. Amen.

Re.11:15-19KJV

The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(world of Devil)are become the kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.

...

18And the nations were(WILL BE)angry,and thy WRATH is come,and the time of the dead,that they should be Judged,and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name,small and great;and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.

19And the temple of GOD was(will be)opened in heaven,and there was seen(then will be seen)in his temple the ark of his testament.

Re.21:8-But the fearful(COWARDS),and unbelieving,and the abominable,and murderers,and whoremongers,and sorcerers,and idolaters,and all liars,shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:which is the second death.

Get ready

1Corinthians 15:24-27

24The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and power. (according 2Peter 3:7-18)

25For he must reign, till he hath PUT ALL ENEMIES under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For GOD hath put all things under His feet.But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.

Get ready

Revelation 21:2-4

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from GOD out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of GOD is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and GOD himself shall be with them, and be their GOD. And GOD shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Are you ready? they that are ready will be with Him to the marriage: and the door is shut. The foolish virgins still are far away buying oil.

More on assurance of salvation or "eternal security"

As stated before space ran out in the last post; Romans 8:16 shows the communication between our spirit and His Spirit who resides within all true believers ( John 14:23; see also Eph. 3:17). For Him to RESIDE in our souls we must be born again.

And being children of God we also are made aware of opportunities which God gives us (i.e. "good works") that will be rewarded in heaven someday that are imperishable ( 1 Cor. 9:25; Matt. 6:19-21). Keep in mind the end of that passage stating that wherever your treasure is; your heart is also (loosely translated).

Again; as I have stated a LOT on this site; God's method is to chastise all those He loves (let the reader find the scriptures). There is no desire for this in the flesh; as it is stated in Hebrews 12:11 to be disciplined in this way. We learn to recognize and appreciate this "pruning" effort ( John 15:2); for without it we would be in danger of producing no fruit and in the end being burned (in everlasting punishment). Our confidence is that in the end we are made into a glorious image; and reflect perfectly His radiance as He truly IS our life. Our reward; therefore comes from Him and in reality is HIS reward. He will; of course have His saints rule and reign with Him as part of our inheritance.

Another point to be made is an effectual witness has to be bold in their testimony and bring the fear of the Lord as well as demonstrate His love. It is therefore as Philippians 1:28 states a "token of their perdition" that we remain steadfast in the confidence of all that He has promised us. Our coming exaltation to rule and reign with Christ isn't brought forth by arrogance on our part; but nonetheless the unnerving thing to those who hear our witness is that we are; indeed already seated in heavenly places. ( Eph. 2:6). Christ also overcame and is seated at the right hand of the Father. God will be magnified whether hell or heaven is our end.

Eternal security considered further

Testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5) wouldn't be in scripture unless these things were possible. Just as there are conflicts in a true believer in regard to the flesh contending with the Spirit; we also recognize that Jesus Himself is working in and through us; we are just the mouthpieces and messengers. The Lord asks us to do many things that are impossible in the flesh; in fact ALL things actually are impossible for unregenerate man as they are spiritually dead; and we can do nothing apart from Him.

One insight in testing our faith to see if it is real is to see if God is drawing men to Himself through us; and with the company we keep. This is a difficult task as we see wheat and tares growing together. To follow Biblical discipleship is in many ways different from the way it is perceived today in many evangelical churches in particular. Multiplying numbers of new converts to keep the spiritual generations ever evolving cannot be at the expense of weeding out those who aren't truly committed to the task. This is what Christ did challenging many who wished to follow Him; as well as challenging the thoughts of even the 12 Apostles on a deeper level than with the masses. Our approach isn't the same as to being able to know all men's thoughts before they speak; but we must unapologetically be uncompromising with the Word so that error doesn't have a way of creeping in-at least as much as we can avoid having it do so. Basically; those who are truly in Christian fellowship will focus on prayer for one another and the Word as a guide to all of their life.

I have detailed these postings with evidences of being a true believer before tackling the "assurance of salvation". I will now look at some points to think about as to having confidence of "eternal security".

First and foremost there is Romans 8:16 showing how those who truly believe KNOW they are saved. More in next post.

My input on "eternal security".

Having gone to some lengths in discussing subjects such as Predestination and things related to this subject I thought I would

present some logic to consider this concept. A primary idea that I have discussed elsewhere is related to Galatians 2:20. To live in new life necessitates a DEATH blow to our old self. If not then we are still trying to do things in our own strength; and since we cannot save ourselves (see Titus 3:5) there is no way to please God in the flesh. Clearly this doesn't spell the end of our struggles on earth; as Paul states in Romans 7:23. Interestingly; he mentions the word "law" in regard to both the pull of the flesh that remains AND that of the Spirit of God; we see similar verses describing war between the desires of the flesh and that of the Spirit in Galatians 5:17.

Serving the Lord; therefore must be out of the love and resulting obedience in God. It has to surpass our human desires; no matter how noble they may seem. It counters our own loves and hates and brings us into conformity with Christ through the Spirit so that we can especially LOVE our ENEMIES which is not possible in the same way with our flesh. We could conceivably

tolerate a wicked man or be in submission out of fear but not seek his deliverance and serve selflessly expecting nothing in return in our own strength. As I have stated in other posts as well we also warn the wicked of their calamity; and that includes all those who seemingly are kind and compassionate; FRIENDS and enemies as well. As showing love toward mean people is impossible; we also have to warn those who seem like "good people" as well; despite our flesh trying to make our relationship with them (wife; husband; mother; father or best friend) seem to somehow absolve them from the fate of all of the rest of mankind.

So in this posting I am stating that our works (i.e. good fruits) as well as thoughts and what we say display whether He is truly in us.

Hello Momsage

Let's start a conversation on a topic that I am not really happy to start because it confuses a lot of people,but at the end I think it would be good to clarify some things.

So what do you think "God inspired scripture means"?. Some people believe that it means that every single word in the Bible is placed there by God, something like God dictated or took the mind and hand of people to write the scriptures. So what are your thoughts about it?

Hello Gerald

I don't think any of us said that it is necessary to speak Hebrew and Greek to be able to understand the scriptures properly, that is impossible anyway. There was just a confusion on why some Bibles, like the KJV, use the word "world" in Matthew 28:20 while other, like the NIV, use the word "age or time" instead. And I think we came up with a good explanation.

My belief is that all those scholars and theologians who speak those languages have done that job for us translating the original scriptures so we are now able to read and understand the Word of God. And I think nobody doubts that if the Holy Spirit does not shed light in vain we read the Scriptures.

GBU

Thank you Momsage for clarifying your first comment. When you stated your response to "those who have troubled themselves with creating the once saved always saved doctrine", it sounded like this was your primary reason for writing what you did. But if I avoid that comment, then yes, I can see what you intending to state, that every repentant sinner will never be shunned by God. Apologies for the misunderstanding & every blessing.

Hi Ronald: No worries. I'm not offended, but I'm absolutely confused why you keep correcting the Holy Ghost's writing of the bible. If He thought the creek word aion translated better into age then world He would have had it translated that way. That was the reason for my sarcasm and I'm sure He knew there were some Creek words that won't translat into English but what does that have to do with anything. In 2 Timothy 2:15 when God tells us to diligently study I believe He meant His true word not a dozen other books of Hebrew or Creek or whatever if it makes us think we know better then God how a word could have been translated in a better way. God Bless :)

Hi Chris: you missed the point. I have come to realized that it doesn't matter if you believe in once saved always saved or not or I believe in once saved always saved or not the bottom line is that there is a sinner who needs Jesus and it's up to us to help them find Him. God Bless : )

Is the sprinkling of water a true baptism?

Hello Momsage. The 'Once saved Always saved' belief isn't something created, rather found in the God's Word. You have recently alluded to the Work of the Holy Spirit in the translation of the Scriptures (particularly the KJB). And so too, the Work of the Holy Spirit must be commenced, continued, & completed in the life of a person now IN Christ. If this isn't so, then the one claiming & believing to be a Christian is misinformed or deluded.

Your statement that "If a person lives a life of a true believer then they are saved. If a person lives a life of sin then they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved", is true but simplistic. What it is lacking, is God's Work of salvation, of placing the seal of His Spirit in us, of securing, of adoption, of power, of correction even death. It might be one thing when we can observe a person who shows all the marks of a faithful Christian & we believe & accept that person as part of God's family. But it becomes quite another thing to know what the unseen life of the person actually is and how faithful he will be under temptation, persecution, or death. We may not know the person's state, but God knows & I believe, the 'Christian' himself will know.

The other aspect of this errant belief is that a Christian can be saved, yet step in and out of the faith, at will. Can we ever assume that God can be played with, with His Holy Spirit popping in & out of a person according to one's estrangement from the Lord & subsequent repentance? I don't see this happening anywhere in Scripture, rather that we remain very diligent in the salvation given us ( Philippians 2:12), not for fear of losing it, but to avoid the correction & discipline of the Lord ( Hebrews 12:5-11) when we sin; or even having to lose our lives if correction goes unheeded so that our spirits might yet be saved ( 1 Corinthians 5:1-5).

The Lord's Work is always gracious towards His children - He knows those who are His - He won't let us go.

Hi Momsage,

I don't take it as sarcastic; your posts show your love and support for Scripture, and I am sorry if what I posted has offended you in any way. I rely solely on the Holy Spirit for my understanding, and I believe I said that in my post. In Greek, there are sometimes no English words or any other language that have the same meaning and we must be guided by the Holy Spirit for the true meaning regardless of the translated Bible we have. The Bible has been translated into many different languages and whatever language a person speaks or reads the Holy Spirit will guide them to the true meaning regardless of the translation.

God bless,

RLW

Thanks Giannis!

You are always a great help.

I wasn't aware of 'ktisis"

Great stuff.

God bless.

hi Momsage

The Holy Spirit inspires people in many ways. One way is as Giannis and S. Spencer have demonstrated here by providing pertinent information according to one's expertise in a certain area to help others understand a Scripture verse or word. We cannot really judge that another person is not sending a message by the inspiration of the Spirit (not in the sense of inspiring sacred writing) but instead allow for the Spirit to work in others in ways that build up the body of Christ, as Giannis and S. Spencer are doing.

But perhaps you were speaking of how the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture, and I know that Giannis and S. Spencer, and you, and I and most on this forum believe that. We do need to keep in step with the Holy Spirit in all of our ways and words and be leadable.

How awesome is our Lord and God who has provided for us so much in every aspect of our lives! All praise to Him always!

Seems like the inspiration of the Holy Spirit got lost somewhere in your discussions.

"The Greek word aion was translated in the KJV 37 times as world, sometimes world works, and sometimes age would be a better choice," Maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit why He made a bad choice by writing it that way? I'm sure He would appreciate you pointing that out to Him. Not being sarcastic to upset any one, just making a point. God Bless :)

This is in response to those who have troubled themselves with creating the once saved always saved doctrine. If a person lives a life of a true believer then they are saved. If a person lives a life of sin then they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved. So it doesn't matter if they believe they were once saved and backslide or you believe they were never really saved. God won't turn away a sinner whether they were saved before or not. So there really is no argument. Jesus will forgive a repentant sinner. Period

Hey Jaz,

Hope you don't mind.

I read and study the KJV, and I have read parts of other Bibles, Michaelswiger gave good information on what manuscripts were used, and if we study the history of the Bible other things and texts like the Bishop Bible were also considered. Giannis and S Spencer have also given good responses on the Greek words. I trust the KJV as the word of God and what He means for us to understand is there, but we must trust the Holy Spirit will guide us.

Aion means life span, age, or epoch, it is the source of our English words age and eon. It describes any length of clearly defined time, whether one person's life or some era of certain renown. As a general point of reference, this word may also apply to the vast span of history: the ages, the times of old.

I agree, with the word's age and world for English-speaking people our understanding can be different. The Greek word aion was translated in the KJV 37 times as world, sometimes world works, and sometimes age would be a better choice, I can send you the verses if you want to study them. Like Matt. 24:3 with the context and what the disciples knew at that time and what Jesus just told them about the temple the word world insinuates they are asking Jesus about His second coming.

If we compare Matt. 24:3 with Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 what is written in Matthew with them still thinking Jesus was going to set up the kingdom instead of the end of the world, the end of the age would fit better. The context of the chapter and comparing what is written in each gospel about the same thing helps me.

All translations or transliterations are not perfect, but God is and what He wants us to know He will show us through the Spirit of truth. Take Matt. 28:19, the commission, if we compare it to Mark 16:15 Luke 24:47, and what we read in the rest of the New Testament what do we see?

God bless,

RLW

Hi Spencer and Jaz

It is true that it is surprizing also to me that the grk word "aion" (age/time) is used sometimes in the NT instead of the word "world" because in modern grk it means "century". So I have done a research and came up that in ancient grk it had the meaning apart from "a very long period of time", it also had the meaning of "the period of time a person lives".

So it was used in conjuction to people"s lives. And it seems that sometimes (but not always) the writers of the NT use it for the time that this world/humanity exists. And with that meaning it is used in Mat 28. With the same meaning it also used by Luke in Luke 16:8, by Paul in Rom 12:2 and Ephesians 6:12 where Paul talks about the "rulers of the darkness of this world" , where the word "age/time" is used for "world".

But in other verses the world "kosmos" which is the actual grk word for "world" is used, ie in John 18:20, also John 16:11 where John talks about "the prince of this world". (compare it with Ephesians 6:12 that talks about the same thing). So as a final conclusion those two words are interchanged for "world".

Spencer:

"Kosmos" in anc grk means "mankind, humanity". In mod grk it means everything, people, animals, plants. land.

"Oikoumene" means the places/land on earth where people are living.

Also the word "ktisis" is used for world, it means "creation".

Well this is enough with lessons in Greek. Confusing? We have to trust those scholars who have done a very good job in translating the NT. There isn't a perfect translation, all translations lack in some things, even modern greek can not match with ancient greek in meanings. As a conclusion all translations are more or less good. There is no actual error when other words are used as long as the meaning of the text is right. Some go word for word, others not, but there are more understandable than the former ones. Everybody has their favourite translation. We can always use 2 or more when we are not sure what it is meant. GBU