King James Bible
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I would like to ask a question concerning a certain pastor I had. You say: "How do we properly view a good Pastor or other leader? From my premise I have established that no man is perfect; but I'll say it straight out-no man is perfect." I agree that this points to spiritually maturity but let me ask you a question: What if your pastor tells you, in a private conversation at church, that he believed the KJB was just an old, ancient book and was "not written by God"? He preached out of the NIV and the NKJB, so I assume he thought the modern versions were and since I use the KJB only, because it is the one that is written by God,this really disturbed me. What do you think of him as a pastor? I believe he is immature and far from perfect because he is so easily blinded by what the world believes about the modern versions. It would only take a small amount of time to simply compare what the other versions say to the KJB to see how corrupt they are. When he told me this, just me while we were about to start our Wednesday night service it really bothered me and I left that church because I didn't feel like I could sit under his preaching. Up until I found out how he believed this, I would just follow along in my KJB while he preached from the NIV.
Reading the first chapter of Philippians for a detailed analysis for a special Sunday school project we are doing in the short term I realize that elders and deacons were established fairly quickly in the early church. It has taken me some time to understand somewhat what each of these roles is supposed to be (elder being essentially same as Pastor; and Deacon I believe being a sort of "helps" ministry). Honestly I haven't been in a church with a Bishop so I won't try to figure that out; I'll leave that to others.
I examined the other day how the Ephesians church seemed to have everything right and lost its first love ( Rev. 2:4 if I remember correctly). It would seem although I couldn't prove it that new and excited converts may have been a missing factor. We are; of course admonished on those who receive the Gospel immediately and with joy but have no root ( Mark 4:17) in the first part of the Parable of the Sower and the Seed. Both extremes need to be avoided; joy is second next to love which clearly had disappeared ( Galatians 5:22). After all; there is nowhere that states that we cannot have continual joy; but as with a marriage maturity tends to make our perspective change as we delve more into the "meat" of the scriptures.
When it comes to interaction in a church of course it helps when a Pastor is genuinely glad to see congregants on a given Sunday; and especially other days of the week when they wish to discuss something. Again; large churches make this more difficult and the advice Jethro gave Moses to get wise decisionmakers under him rather than taking on menial burdens fits this situation ( Exodus 18:13-27). Of course it is good when we also rejoice and show appreciation for our Pastor. This of course has to go beyond common courtesies; and we should want to do more than just put our time in and check off a box. Unforgiveness on either end stifles the Spirit
They got a later start to the c-section than we thought would happen, so Rosie was born around 1:00 A.M.
We did not see her or speak to my son because they were to be in post op recovery for a few hours and it was already 2:00 A.M. when he texted us with a picture. We will head up to hospital in a bit to visit.
will update after Rosie is born.
I'm praying everything goes well.
God bless.
Our friendship is stronger than this one difference between us.
at the hospital now being labor coach for my daughter in law, so things may get crazy in a few hours.
My daughter in law is in labor and our granddaughter will soon be born sometime this evening I predict. I appreciate your prayers for Vivian and baby Rosie.
I do not wish to start a discussion on these either at this time.
Again; as always impressed with your knowledge; it seems after double checking Adventism and Mary Ellen White started in New England in the 1830s and 40's.
As to Dispensationalism; I'm afraid to start any controversy on the subject. I personally believe in Dispensationalism and Covenants as concepts; although with anything else I would agree that we can't totally sever different time periods as we find evidences of grace in the O.T. and law in the New; for instance. If that makes me errant; I suppose you can straighten me out if you wish (if it makes you feel any better I have been associated in recent years more with Reformed churches but not currently).
Okay maybe you can set me straight; hope this doesn't mess up our friendship...
Agape; Rich P
Respond:Writings
This scripture can correlate to the person that doesn't want to be moved or feel out of place. To learn what it is to become of Jesus Christ of his divine will that brings into subjection
"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matthew 11:30 KJV
Becoming light allowing Love into your hearts to thevdivine will and to walk in it not against it and in the hope of becoming disciples for Christ.
. That God the Father will give you rest and meaning he will work for you in the Spirit and earth realm
Perhaps some of the reason I am exploring this subject in depth is because I am convinced that it is never the fault of the Lord if a church is lukewarm; or someone isn't having a transformative experience. I am also learning as I go; asking myself questions.
Avoiding superficial emotionalism on one hand doesn't mean that church should not be a life changing event or "experiental". We have to think on terms that are foreign to our natural minds; as covered in my earlier posting even Paul wasn't apparently the most elegant speaker. This is usually the polar opposite of what we see today; where everyone's quaff is well polished; along with their verbage; organization; methodology; etc. To give everyone what they need and not just what they want means we can't make church primarily a numbers game or popularity contest. That is probably why I despise taking a survey of the number of attendees (thankfully hasn't been an issue in my last couple churches).
I am not sure how much further I want to explore this theme with specific scenarios; we see music leaders; youth pastors and the general layperson as modes of operation not spiritual rankings higher to lower. In fact; I will be bold enough to say that if a Pastor doesn't find at least one or two in their midst that CLEARLY have an unction or gifting that is more developed in some area than they have then in that case they SHOULD pray for more individuals to attend until there is someone out there who they can learn from and be sufficient to advise them. There are some churches where congregants simply don't bother to ASK if they can start a prayer group; Bible study or some other activity and only have themselves to blame if something is lacking-other places have certain rules; and we need Godly wisdom to determine if it is His will to submit or find a place less restrictive if it is clear the Lord is being choked out. Everyone is needed.
To effectively reach a congregation there should be both empathy and timely preaching on subjects that are needed (i.e. dealing with grief) as well as overall general doctrinal lessons. We therefore can't be preaching at people but also can't expect that only trying to mollify an effect a situation is having will suffice. The root cause; of course of all problems is sin; either our own or the effects of that of others; or that of the enemy of our souls (world; flesh and Devil). The approach to a sermon can be subjective and isn't the primary focus here. What a message should be and what ultimately fills us with the Spirit is something that reflects God's glory; and helps to bring forth salt and light in others. To those trained as true sons and daughters of God are mature enough to handle the "meat" of the Word; but there are certainly times when milk is better administered. This is why churches who are strong on doctrine may be failing to make the impact they could. This could be due to immaturity; or sin that is affecting people that isn't dealt with properly. This sort of issue would need to be considered even in large churches that have proper teaching; obviously in that situation a Pastor can't be aware of everything that is going on; but needs reliable elders and deacons as well as laypersons who are mature enough to handle responsibility.
In order to be truly rejoicing in the Lord; therefore the fire spreads; or the lamp is lit because of mutual truth in the Spirit.
There are many things which the cults understand in principle that in practice is very similar in many ways but substitutes truth for a lie. We either reflect the light of the Kingdom of God within us; or the light within us that is in reality; darkness. ( Luke 11:35-40). The main difference is that a cult leader is worshipped and becomes the center of attention; and with the true Gospel the focus is God
Getting back to my primary point on this specific subject; I will make an assumption that we are following a Pastor who is apparently a true believer; Biblically sound and therefore qualified to lead the local congregation as the example of who we can desire to emulate. That; of course is a tall order with the state and condition of churches in general at this hour.
A cult of personality; nonetheless can still rear its ugly head even in this situation. The first rule of thumb; of course is to determine if indeed a church is still teaching correct doctrine or if error is creeping in as that is a top method of the enemy. When one is puffed up there is danger of a little leaven creeping in. ( Romans 11:21). Revelation 2:4 mentions losing our first love while teaching is basically correct doctrinally.
There is; as my initial post alluded to distractions in the flesh. There is no doubt that many megachurches in particular are focused on young; attractive people in leadership as either Pastors or Music Directors in particular. I have gotten into that on previous occasions; so I won't elaborate here.
Ok; with the preliminaries well examined I will ask what seems to be a dumb question: How do we properly view a good Pastor or other leader? From my premise I have established that no man is perfect; but I'll say it straight out-no man is perfect.
Psalm 37:37 says to "mark the perfect man"; there are other N.T. references to being perfect but clearly this means fully mature. It should be clear that proper teaching must also be accompanied by proper living out of the Gospel. Given that IS occurring to the best of our understanding-then what? How do we allow this experience to transform us?
To be a conduit of truth; no doubt best aids the rest of the congregation through genuinely listening to the gifts of others in our midst. This means proper doctrine as well as timely messages edifying at the time.
May God Bless All of You Today!
MEMORIAL PRAYER
Lord, we come before you at this hour with sad hearts as we remember the ones that is no longer among us. Some was well known. Others were less known. Maybe they were a mother or father; son or daughter; sister or brother;
husband or wife; whether healthy or handicapped; whether needy or well off;
whether they were blessed with a long life or whether their life was cut short; whatever title they held they shared their life with us and we remember their presence on this earth.
Our memory of them shall never fade away.
We pray they are in a place where the wicked shall cease from troubling and the weary shall be at rest. Lord, relieve our pain, ease our sorrow, calm our fears, comfort our hearts and Lord, grant us peace.
In Jesus name we pray, Amen.
To see the Body of Christ function balancing the gifts of the Spirit to minister to one another and fruits of the Spirit grown to maturity as mentioned in verses like this is perhaps my ultimate goal; it is a work in progress to find examples such as this.
I will give an example from a friend of mine to give some context to the point I am making. Leaving names and places out of this example I will state that the church he attended a year ago before becoming a lead Pastor himself in another state was basically teaching a correct Gospel (although I couldn't accept their stance on divorce and remarriage). The Pastor initially was without any elders or deacons for accountability and proper scriptural function related to his office. He was also rather caught up in himself; my friend helped for about a year or so as an assistant Pastor (and or youth Pastor). Anyway; to cut to the chase after being gone he recently visited the church and was surprised that they even missed him and was more affectionately received than expected. My point in this is that what makes the value of truth transform a heart is when the messenger himself has lived out what he believes. This brings out an example; much like that which my friend now faces in pastoring a rural church that is rather chaotic. Sometimes we view difficulties in church as a game changer; it is so easy to start to attend elsewhere or just virtually participate online. It helps as in the position of my friend to gain wisdom from being an understudy in submission to leadership so that in his current mode He can shepherd the flock more effectively from lessons learned.
Going back to the initial concept then; it is lack of proper function of elders that can lead to a God complex.
The title here is where I am expanding this study to; but am focusing now on the Pastor in particular and church leadership in general. Going back to what I said earlier as it seems relevant; it is easier to see someone's conversion in real life when they have a dramatic change from an earlier lifestyle; and that is bolstered by any personal knowledge we have of the individual of where they used to be. The best example I can think today of that sort of individual is Nicky Cruz who David Wilkerson mentored as written in the Cross and the Switchblade. I HIGHLY recommend reading the account and seeing what a truly transformed heart is (he who loves much has been forgiven much) ( Luke 7:47). This scenario also shows how a Pastor over a large congregation is to operate; not being afraid of physical persecution himself to reach the downtrodden in society. I won't necessarily espouse all the prophetic statements that Wilkerson made as I would have to research it; nonetheless I would say for that period of time in this country he was unmatched for conviction in his sermons and was in the class of the great 19th Century revivalists.
Unfortunately, today not only do we see fewer examples of those preaching doctrinal truth; but it is hard to find anyone with much transparency today in regard to their own sinfulness like Paul the Apostle who called himself the "chief of sinners" ( 1 Tim. 1:15). I have mentioned before some of the so called statements of "repentance" of megachurch Pastors today. When we look to the PROPER function of elders and indeed laypersons in administering Biblical church discipline we see a reflection of Christ Himself. This means we cannot ever put the OFFICE of Pastor or Elder above the ROLE; which is to be a shepherd of the flock who is submitted to the CHIEF Shephard of our souls. ( 1 Peter 5:4).
Let us focus again on the Matthew 16 passage. 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
I am hammering home this concept because it is paramount in understanding who the Lord is; and needed to be understood if anyone is to grow as a true Disciple. Let us examine several problems here. The first problem would be considering that somehow the soul of one of these three prophets was living inside Christ which seems to be the concept here; a sort of "reincarnation"; except for the case of John the Baptist who it appears Herod thought had repossessed Christ after having him killed ( Matthew 14:1-2). The concept of the Holy Ghost manifesting in someone as He did with someone else isn't entirely wrong or unscriptural; we see for instance Elisha having a double portion of the Spirit that Elijah had ( 2 Kings 2:9). John the Baptist also was like Elijah in a way ( Matthew 17:12). This correct analogy of course is NOT what people are saying. This fits in also to those who would call Him teacher or Rabbi. Luke 16:15 warns us that what is honorable among men is an abomination to God. Names and titles mean nothing; neither does human pride. Let us once again examine this concept of exaltation of Pastors.
The easy point to make here is that we should never put men on a pedestal; or substitute worship for God alone to a man.
This doesn't change the fact that we should seek examples to emulate; as it is essential for discipleship.
The focus of these messages is on how with the brethren to walk in the fullness of the Spirit; and I am beginning with how we see the Lord at work in others and started my last post with the most vital warning on the subject; namely NOT to make people a substitute for Christ; that is not to make them OBJECTS of worship.
I started discussing Paul and inferred that there were things detracting him from being seen as he truly was; a pillar in the church because of some personal characteristics. It took some time; no doubt to get beyond who they recognized as a well known persecutor of the church. We could well look at any previous terrorist or murderer who is truly converted and just see scars on their face or a rough discourse as to their speech and never be able to look beyond that to see a changed heart.
It seems; from my experience that those who have indeed a dramatic testimony of being delivered from particularly heinous sins in the past (drugs; violence; immorality) do make the contrast of pre and post conversion easier to see. Those of us who were; on the whole polite and kind before conversion are harder to envision as to the way the Holy Spirit has transformed them.
That was; more or less my own testimony. What must be true; of course is that we truly have become converted and realize that we were no better than any other sinner; no matter how heinous-we just didn't have time to act it out or further devolve into the monster that we truly were in our nature. That is the issue with family; when they are in the mood to be gracious they talk about how good a son I am; when in a foul mood like to point out hypocrisy when I am truly reflecting the Lord as well as when I am starting to display my own pride.
We can't forget that with Christ Himself it took God Himself to break through the reality as to who he really was. My previous example from Matthew 16 demonstrates this.
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ( Matthew 16:13-17)
I feel compelled to try to describe how we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit and the best way to describe it. My first point is how NOT to approach this.
Concept #1 DO NOT put a person; no matter how Godly they appear to be as your focus on how you view Christ.
This is the most pressing issue here on this topic. We are indeed caught between two extremes here. In the Body of Christ we have the only tangible evidence of a demonstration of living out a life filled with the Spirit including the fruits AND gifts thereof.
We therefore MUST have examples of those who have discipled us in order to emulate ( 1 Cor. 11:1). Paul; of course was the penultimate example of a man sold out for the Lord; in word and in deed. 2 Corinthians 10:10 says; however this: For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is unimpressive, and his speaking is of no account." Paul was apparently despite intensive training in the past as a Jew in the Torah not a gifted public speaker; at least giving a sermon.
He certainly seemed to have no problem speaking in large crowds; in prison and in other situations. We of course can't overlook the fact that he used to be Saul; who was behind intense persecution of Christians pre-salvation.
I do see how that can be mishandled.
God bless.
I cannot express the joy it gave me to read both of your commits and praying for help with me.
I want you both to know that the day you responded the good LORD let me know that he wanted me to move in a different direction and showed me clearly what the problem was and how to fix it.
It cannot get any better than that. GOD is so GOOD!
The power of prayer is just so amazing. I will keep you both posted.
Thank YOU again.