Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 62

Dear Tamar, I will pray for you today.

Heavenly Father, we come to you again today in Jesus' name and ask that You will bring to Tamar safety in her comings and goings as well as in her dwelling, provide for Tamar a job that is the best fit for her, protect her in all situations in her life, and cause her body to be healthy and strong against illness and anything that may bring harm to her body. We know that You hear our prayers because of our Lord Jesus, Your Son is our mediator. we thank you for the wondrous way You have saved us and the riches beyond measure You bring to those who are Yours and are called by name to be Your children. May You bless Tamar ever so much today and moving forward, bless her comings and her goings, her resting and her working, the interactions she has with others, and mostly in her relationship with You and Your Son, Jesus. fFill her up with your Holy Spirit to receive comfort, guidance, peace, and wisdom. Amen.

Greetings Adam

Good question. We are face to a deep and terrible puzzle/enigma. The most important is the Truth. GOD is Truth. The Word is GOD. The Word is from everlasting to everlasting. The GOD's people needs to investigate and seek Truth.

Replying to your question, I must say that NAME does not exist in the original Hebrew Scripture, it was simply added.

Remember, JESUS said: Re.22:18 -> I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

What matters and prevails is the pure Word of GOD. Isaiah 12:3KJV says: Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. (Jo.7:38-> He that believes on me, as the Scripture has said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Compare with John 5:37-47)

4 And in that Day (in this current Day, the seventh and last Day) shall ye say, Praise the Lord, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted.(This will LITERALLY be fulfilled: Revelation 7:1-8. 144K)

5 Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. -> ( Revelation 11:15-18, among other biblical references.Take a look)

6 Cry out and shout, you inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee. -> (Re.1:7-8-> 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, sais the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. ->7 Behold,He comes with clouds;and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

GOD BLESS

Adam was created; and the Lord from heaven, the Word become flesh. For this reason Adam was a stand-in for Jesus Christ. So the separation of light from darkness (Ge.1:3-4) shall have two nations, of light and of wrath. Seth onwards we see heirs of promises because they represent Jesus Christ who was to come. The idea 'only begotten Son ( John 3:16) signify the Word or the Law in operation. Humanity of Jesus has to be seen as faithful and true witness of it.

Thank you Bennymkje for those extra comments on God's Creative Work, particularly noting you referred to the first Adam (Man) & the last Adam (the Man Christ Jesus). The first was from "the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). The first was created from the dust of the Earth, Jesus was never created from anything but was the Lord from Heaven sent to Earth in human form. Is this what you also believe?

In addition to the earlier reply may I add to what you state,"but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan."

The principles of Wisdom and Power have a bearing on the Son, "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,"(He.1:3) The word of his power is assigned to the same one who is the judge. God does not judge since it left for the Son as he is his fulfilling aspect. The Order of his kingdom is not maintained solely by power but by wisdom in equal measures. So when we speak of Law it is consistent. The eternal Word is the Law. God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. It is the seed which is in itself. This seed and the one who plants it are same. Adam is the son of God because of this seed. This explains the classic conundrum: which came first: the chicken or egg? God had seen both as one. It was thus when God says,"Let us make man in our image" the word was in the power as well. Glory of God is in its expression. Jesus Christ as the visible image of the invisible God is 'the brightness of his glory'

It is to which we read "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light./And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."(Ge.1:3-4) God is the Father of lights and Jesus Christ as the true Light referring to the brightness. This light has nothing to do with celestial objects but it refers to the Law and those who have the seed of the word in themselves so they obey the word of God. Children of light and children of disobedience are determined by the Word.

Abiding in Christ means one's works are done as though Christ in his did. On the other hand Adam's sin was in disregarding 'the seed in itself'.

Satan is the Father of confusion. Organized churches took root from Pagan Rome, that tells.

You state: "'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan."

God is one. This Order relates to two principles of Wisdom and Power, which are the basis for all action including creation. Wisdom is feminine principle. So when God says, Let us make man in our image' it was implied. Male and female created he them. this image/likeness was in two senses:Eve was represented in Adam. This explains Ro.5 where Adam and Jesus are representative of two groups. Ro.5:12,17

2) Christ and the Bride. Adams' knowledge of 'Flesh of my flesh bone of my bones' owe to the breath of God. bone refers to the word, doctrine spiritual flesh 'formed of dust' earthy.

God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is the visible image of God. Adam is the son of God.( Luke 3:78) In Adam consequently Jesus is represented. To which we have the terms first Adam and 'last Adam' (1 Co.15:45)

Now the divine Will which owing to his Holiness, requires no correction and it is in the NOW. So symbol of the Lamb slain (Re.13:8) is simultaneous as the Lamb of God ( John 1:29). The same can be said of the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1) Jesus Christ as the visible image is same, yesterday, today and forever..He 13:8. For this reason God rested on the seventh 'day' which is not day as we know the term. God's Will as established as the Wisdom of Jesus who of God shall fulfill them.

Your quote, "but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan." Amen

I will try to keep this short Ronald; to one point only.

I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".

Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.

If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).

And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.

Momsage,

Trust in the word, " Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."(Ph.1:6)

Dear Guadalupe, I have prayed for Stella.

Texsis, So glad to hear from you again. I have been wondering about you and praying for you. How ae things going for you?

Hi Ronald.

I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.

And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.

However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.

Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.

it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.

Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?

Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.

I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.

Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.

Greetings Oseas,

I respect your posts and think I have agreed with most I've noticed in the past, but your two paragraphs starting with "By the way" has me puzzled.

Can you please share how you arrived at that belief and how you interpret verses mentioning that name in verses like Isaiah 12:2?

A comment on the eternal nature of the Godhead

A simple point may do here. That point is; that God Himself created time along with gravity and all the other forces of nature in the universe that we still have today. He created light and all sources of light as well as the sun; moon and stars so that the measure of time could begin at its speed (186000 miles/second) along with mass and energy to verify Einstein's theory of E=MC2.

The movement of the heavenly bodies then designated times and seasons (in years and divisions of such into days; weeks and months). The fact that death entered into the world before sin shows that before that and of course after it is finally removed from the world man and all of nature will live eternally; which of course is in tandem with an eternal God.

Before my original post got wiped out; I was going to say that the Godhead is much like Adam before Eve was taken out of him; complete in unity. It's not a perfect example; as Eve didn't exist as a separate entity before she was taken out of Adam's rib; but does demonstrate through Christ and God's relationship something akin to the human marriage relationship with the wife being submissive to the husband. John 14:23 shows how the Father and Son make their abode within a believer; who also of course has the indwelling Holy Spirit as many other verses indicate sealing us until the day of Redemption ( Eph. 4:30).

In this posting I will also end for now my exploration of the "emotions" of God once again reminding everyone that everything God has in perfect righteousness in terms of His reactions is reflected in some degree with man created in His image. Perhaps the next series should be discussing the actions of God. In light of the earlier mention of the situation between Moses and God where a dialogue seemed to stop God's intention of destroying everyone we can learn ourselves to never let emotions dictate action without careful counsel with the Lord on the right action.

Thank you! Good reading, as always. Can I ask a favor? I'd like to learn, in depth, on end times. Will you teach us about that? You may have in past but I have been off here for some time. Thank you for all your great readings.

Hey S Spencer,

Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.

If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.

The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.

Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?

Thanks again.

God bless,

RLW

Thank you Bennymkje, you are a sweet brother in the Lord. I am feeling much better today, Praise the Lord! He indeed does carry us through and I long for that eternity of no pain or anything else here that can beset us. Glory Hallelujah!! Have a blessed day, Bennymkje. God Bless :)

Thanks Ronald.

On John 1:1-10.

I read your views on this when I got in from work late Friday night.

I had to do some catching up as I fell behind on my following.

I believe Chris and Giannis covered much on this topic far better than I would be able to.

What I did notice is there is some disparity in the usage of the Greek between you and them that is vital to understanding the truth in which you search.

However, I was just wanted to add something, if it haven't already been touched on.

Just to clear up my sloppy reply last night I was trying to not only showcase the Trinity in presented in the Gospel of John and 1 John 1. but to highlight words in the text that "describes" a being rather than focusing on "In the beginning"

I am 100 percent sure that John is not talking about Christ ministry as the beginning here.

However, if I gave you that it still doesn't settle the fact that the scripture doesn't only say "and the Word was with God," It says "AND THE WORD WAS GOD".

Verse 2 describes a time and location.

The same was IN THE BEGINNING "WITH GOD".

There is also verse 4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

When we are born again we become one with Christ by the Spirit.

This is a everlasting Spirit! The "Spirit of God"

We have a birth date.

The Spirit of God does not.

The Spirit of God is life and Christ was sent from God to give us life and make us sons of God!

Our bodies are hardware. Our life is software. Christ proceeded from the Father and took on a body/hardware and filled it with a preexisting Spirit that has NO beginning.

We have been quickened by a life giving Spirit that has NO beginning.

It seems in your replies you are focusing on verses that presents Jesus Humanity.

God bless

Isaiah 52:14 states: As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men...

Whenever we question suffering and why it needs to be on this earth today; the ultimate question may be why did God's Son have to suffer beyond any other in creation? Again; the physical death would have been nothing compared to the sweat of drops of blood considering His upcoming separation from the Father and taking on our sins onto Himself. This atonement is perhaps the biggest reason suffering needs be; it all began with the fall of man and it's ripple effect in all Creation but God in His infinite wisdom knew that this atonement needed to happen to restore all things to Himself ( Acts 3:21).

One could; of course look at all of human history as one would view a screen play; full of drama; pathos and various characters of antagonist or protagonist leanings. This helps us to examine God's overall "emotions" (again reducing things to a human level to comprehend characteristics of the Godhead). If we were to examine our free will in the midst of this it could be crudely compared to a rogue actor doing some unscripted scene which is confined to the small time allotted for the play to act itself out.

This shows how we as humans cannot ultimately change the course of predetermined events; but also that we are not robots ourselves who are always bound to the same script but all have individual roles to play and also how all of us are interconnected to each other. This results in all who are His own on "stage right" as it were and the rest on "stage left". Proverbs 3:6 says in all ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your steps (I believe that is one translation).

When we look to the Apostle Paul's declaration that the sufferings of the present time are nothing compared to the glory to come ( Romans 8:18) we see that the joys of heaven will therefore be so much the greater after the harvest from today's brief trials

Hey Chris.

Part one,

As I said I am not the best in explaining my understanding and I will try, I feel you deserve it, for you have been gracious to even discuss this with me.

1 Corinthians 15:47 This is after Jesus was raised from the dead and Paul is saying our Lord. First the earthy the first Adam then the spiritual the last Adam Jesus who did come from heaven when Jesus, God's Son was conceived in Mary's womb.

We see in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus defeated death because He was without sin the firstborn from the dead the only man who lived a perfect life. After He was baptized and anointed God gave Him authority John 5:26-27.

Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5 My understanding is the preexistence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created. A man caused sin to enter mankind and it had to be a man to live a perfect life to fulfill and make void the law, God could not do that.

Hebrews 1:5 Jesus is not a God there is only one true God, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. a man who is God's Son conceived in Mary, who God raised in a glorified body and placed Him on His right side on His throne above all that is in heaven and earth and under the earth.

See part two.

Chris,

Part two,

Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.

1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.

Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.

As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.

I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.

Love you brother and God bless.

RLW

"Carnal Wisdom" (2 of 2)

Thirdly when God is pleased with his motives it is God who directs his way. "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps. It is how God opens the ear of the willing. "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left (Is.30:21)". It is a highway. "And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein (Is.35:8)". In his humility God sets the example of his Son so the foolish have become wise under his charge. Isaiah gives us a good description of the way Jesus Christ took.

"The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned./ The Lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting./ For the Lord God will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed." (Is.50:4-7).

"Carnal wisdom" (1 of 2)

The Pharisees of old made a show of asking 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?' But they shall not do what is required of them. Wisdom was too high for them since their carnal nature came in between. Activism prosperity theology,- love of money and praise of men leave no room for humility and obedience which persist even in our times. Why would they seek wisdom it they were to turn out in the end like reprobate silver?

Satan knows the word of God but without understanding the key to it,- the everlasting covenant and the aspect of Salvation all his wisdom is to no purpose. As James would put it "but is earthly, sensual, devilish./ For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work"(Jas.3:16-17). Satan resisted what the Lord had willed. Joshua was a double for the Son. "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him./ And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee" (See under A-Accuser)

"Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?"(Pr.17:16)

God searches the hearts and knows what are their motives. So when one seeks wisdom, to what purpose is the first question? If he is uncertain and if he asks in earnest God shall establish it for him. "Commit thy works unto the Lord, and thy thoughts shall be established.(16:3)" Secondly a man may draw his conclusions which are not guarantee that it shall succeed. A fool is the one who may ask but nevertheless wants to settle the outcome by himself. Samuel told King Saul how but he did it anyway as he wanted. When he confronted him he admits, "And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice."(1 Sa.15:24).

"Wisdom"

There are two kinds one which is from above and other carnal, qualified as 'devilish.'

Wisdom is knowledge of the holy framed into a body, so when we refer to Jesus who of God has become wisdom. Wisdom is also compared to a building of God, 'an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens'. It is of this we have in the epistle of St James, "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy./ And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." (Jas.3:17-18)

This wisdom is free, which is also called as planted by God so the seed is in itself. This is the word of God. "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."(De.30:14). This forms the part of the abstract in the everlasting covenant between God and Man. (Ge.1:12-13) Also significant is the fact that it comes under the third day, which is a tag for the Son. St Paul refers to it, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." (1 Co.1:30) In the light of the above we may examine the discourse of our Savior Lord, "I am the true vine' and you are the branches. "And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of that make peace."

Instead carnal wisdom produces strife 'in your hearts' and heresies of Gnosticism to what we find in our own times are driven by Satan to create confusion. (Jas.1:14-16).

"In my Father's House"

Jesus tells his disciples, 'In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you ( John 14:2)'. Many mansions are with reference to both body and spirit.

"In the image of God created he him; male and female created he them (Ge.1:27)". But nowhere in the Gospels do we hear 'My Mother's House' being mentioned. Instead the body that God has prepared for his Son before the worlds began serves as a house to which St Paul speaks thus,"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."(2 Co.5:1). This can be understood in terms of the Everlasting Covenant where God has a tabernacle with seven pillars founded on the foundation symbol, a rock which is Christ. Thus the divine Will of the Father has the House of Wisdom enshrining the Fellowship of God with Man. Secondly a body to which St Paul refers in particular,-of spiritual bodies, a building of God collectively so called.(Pr.9:1)

Zion is thus a rock cut not with hands, and is the seat of the throne of the Lamb. Symbolism in the Will of God requires no correction. The Lamb of God, the throne of God with its fulfillment aspect, the throne of the Lamb can be written thus; "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, to day and forever. Christ Jesus has of God become wisdom to those who believe.(1 Co.1:30). In the Proverbs quote mentioned here-above Wisdom is a feminine principle. In creating man,(male and female created he them-Ge.1:27) we understand the rationale the Church is represented in the Father's House.

Confidence of St Paul was not in his own body, which was crucified with Christ but from the life of the Son of God. (Gal.2:20-21). This is one mansion that Jesus Christ referred.

Hi momsage,

I read that you have health issues and I pray that you are healed of it in the precious name of Jesus Christ. Our bodies are not what they used to be. We carry them about while our names are written in heaven. With joy and peace despite of it all, and Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd, may he carry us in our old age, trusting in him,

Hello D.E.S. I agree that there isn't much given to us in the Bible to give clear teaching - it comes down to how one understands what is given. BTW, the John 3:13 reference you gave, is actually Jesus' response to Nicodemus, when he queried Jesus' Knowledge of these strange things he was hearing. Jesus told him that He was telling him things that only one from God's Presence could do; and that was of this new birth/new heart to be born again, that God required. No man has ever entered Heaven to learn such things & bring this news down to Earth, only Jesus could, He Who came down from Heaven.

That aside, I would ask you to give thought to these Scriptures: Luke 16:19-31 and Luke 23:39-43. In the Luke 16 account, Jesus gave us a glimpse of life after death (the locations of those were prior to Jesus' Own Resurrection). Here, we read that there was consciousness beyond the grave; their bodies were buried, but they were aware of their situation, of joy or pain, even of concerns.

Then the Luke 23 reference. Jesus gave the repentant thief (hanging on the Cross beside Him), the assurance that at his death, he would join Jesus in Paradise - the place of no pain & real comfort. If people today die & just remain in the grave awaiting the resurrection, then most certainly, those of Jesus' day knew that their spirits would live on in the place of God's appointment for them, while their earthly remains awaited resurrection & final judgement. Sending this for your reading & consideration & for God's Comfort & Assurance to be your daily experience.

Page 2. To Ronald.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.

1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.

Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.

To Brother Ronald Whittemore & others. I'm unable to respond to Ronald's last response to me, as the Reply button is missing (probably purposely done to limit the comments in that thread). So this one comes as a new Thread to address those matters.

Page 1.

Thanks again Ronald, and I note that you would like a recess on this discussion. But if I might briefly address the Scriptures you shared & why I believe that they don't answer the question, 'was Jesus' first appearance only from the womb of Mary, or did He exist in another Form within the Person of God?'

To your references:

1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man is the Lord from Heaven" (not a Man Who became Lord, Who went into Heaven & then returned to Earth as Lord from Heaven - but the Lord Who was in Heaven & came to Earth, unlike the first man, Adam, Who was created from the Earth & back to the Earth he went).

1 Timothy 2:5: yes, Jesus is the Mediator now between God & mankind after His ascension.

Matthew 1:20, Acts 17:31, Revelation 12:5: yes again, all point to Jesus as a Man/Babe Who came from God - but no direct reference to any previous existence.

Hebrews 1:5: indeed, Jesus became the Son of God by virtue of this miraculous Birth, but then God would have created another god, because 'all the angels of God are to worship Him'; & none can receive worship but God alone. You asked, "How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father?" Because God took His Word & gave Flesh to that Word, and this Flesh was brought into the World by the Work of God, which made this One called Jesus, God's Son. Jesus only became the Son of God at the Incarnation.

Hebrews 2:7: Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" by virtue of His Humanity. It seems there is an order of created beings before God: the angels being above humanity, of which Jesus was made, thus subjecting Him to being our equal.

Onto Page 2.

Hi Richard,

The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.

But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.

Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.

Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

Frank

I will continue to pray for you and your wife.