Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 79

Spell check messed up part of my reply that is coming up. It should say Christ and the disciples picking and eating corn on the Sabbath out of need. :)

Hi GiGi. Yes there are some things that may be necessary to do on the Sabbath. Get gas or whatever you need to do before Saturday. If you forget and must get it on the Sabbath then this is an exception because it is a need. Like Christ and His deciples eating

Picking corn on Sabbath out if necessity. Common sense is all that is needed to accomplish this obedience so there is no long list of do's abd don't's. Anyone who works on Saturday if they pray and believe God He will make a way out of it. There are plenty of people who have no regard for the things of God who can do what ever needs done. It is not a sin for true believers to worship and fellowship on Sunday. God has only command us to make one day, the seventh, as a complete day of rest and we can also worship since we don't have worldly distractions. Meals could be take out or prepared on Friday like in a slow cooker so everyone can help themselves etc. My whole point is Christians could do it no problem if they wanted to obey this commandment just like the others. God Bless :)

Think it well - Matthew 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be(combined with Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12).

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved( Romans 9:28): but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ ( John 5:43-47), or there; BELIEVE IT NOT.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets( Isaiah 9:15-16 combined with Revelation 12:3-4), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. - 25 Behold, I have told you before.

There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I love you too GiGi. We are sisters in the Lord. It's true I used quotes for my view by people repeating history but not false doctrine from a book that is not in the bible. Yes we could go on and discuss other things but we shouldn't use scripture from sources that were not scantion by the Holy Ghost.

I read a little of Barnabas and he seemed to believe our hope for eternal life was something we are to strive for if we behave ourselves until we die. Anyway I only answered your reply because it didnt seem right not to. I have decided to stay with this forum but only with you and Christianlady7.

Keeping the SABBATH was a commandment of God not a law of the Jews. Talk to you soon. God Bless :)

GiGi,

Did you mean someone else? I do not recall sharing my views on this discussion.

Thank you brother Giannis for sharing more information of the practises of the early Church - all this should be very helpful to those seeking better understanding of what took place in those meetings. And just to add, I've never found any of your posts to be aggressive or hurtful in any way, and have always valued very much your understanding of the Word especially when bringing us added knowledge from the Greek. And of course, calling upon history, if outside of biblical revelation, can always be a sore point; one must investigate further the facts presented rather than blind rejection, for whatever our reason. Truth is paramount: if we believe that the Bible is wholly true (even under testing), then anything that would complement biblical facts must also be given equal scrutiny. Blessings.

The first recording of the teaching of the "rapture" was by Ephraem the Syrian in his most recently found and translation book entitled "Antichrist and the End of the World" in 373AD.

GOD bless everyone in CHRIST name.

January 06, 2024

Hi Jema

Although I have been agressive to some people on this site in the past (and I have repented about it) I don't think I have been either agressive to Momsage or used words that insult, neither me nor any other person in that discussion about Sabbath. About singling her out how can that be? We don't know each other here on this site neither we have the same beliefs in every topic. When we list all we know about a topic is for making our beliefs solid, not to diminish the other person. Now to what was discussed. Momsage anchored herself to what she has read somewhere and I listed all historical events that I know to make her think that she may have the wrong impression about things she learned. Anyway, does all that mean that when I want to talk about something with others I should not say all that I know because that other person may feel inferior? Is this what you say? Is this right? Personally when someone talks about things that I don't know, such as history, I am very careful about what is said and then I look it up on the net. There is so much information nowadays on there from all sort of sources and it is good not to single out any church or denomination. But as far as the church history is concerned there is a wide acceptance all over the world about specific events in the history of the early church and when we hear something that sounds a bit strange in our ears then that makes us want to wake up that other person. There are some teachers or churches that in order to promote their ideas they twist some things on purpose, and I firmly believe that Momsage has fallen to that trap, because what she says that they say is not the accepted history of the church. We should be very careful in general when we hear something that is in total contrast to what all the others believe. Is is only us or some other specific teachers that God has revealed His truth? Why? Are we something special? Anyway, I think this is enough. Have a blessed day.GBU

Hi Richard,

Sorry, it should be the Feast of Unleavened Bread where the first and the seventh day are the holy convocation, not Passover, my bad.

God bless,

RLW

Hey Richard H Priday,

I agree with what you have said some things have been used for power and control, the day people go to a church is for their conscience and should not be a division. We see in Acts they were meeting every day of the week. But if I may point out a few things about the eighth day, not to debate but things you may want to study. The eighth day appears in various contexts in the Bible but to my understanding never as a day of the week, there are only seven days of the week.

God told Abraham that male children should be circumcised on the eighth day after their birth. We know now medically on the eighth day after birth, vitamin K in the body is at its highest level on the eighth day, and it is pivotal in blood clotting.

It comes up again with the Feast of Tabernacles on the first day and the eighth day was a holy convocation with no work outside of preparing food could be done, unlike the Passover where the first day and the seventh day were a holy convocation.

The eighth day was used in some sacrifices where it was done on the eighth day after the sin, some in the past have referred to the Lord's Day as the eighth day, referring to a new creation and some say it will be the final day of judgment, but I do not know much about that.

Pentecost, also known as the Feast of Weeks, you count seven Sabbaths after Passover, and it will be the first day after the seventh Sabbath. That makes it the 50th which is the meaning of pentekoste/Pentecost on the first day of the week after 49 days/seven Sabbaths.

They would count each day, this is the first day, this is the second day until the 50th day the second harvest would be presented to God and said it was the same day God gave the law to Moses on Mount Sinai. and the day of the giving of the Holy Spirit, the second harvest.

I hope you don't mind Richard and are not offended; I read and enjoy your posts and hope your health is good.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Christianlady7. I think I already answered this post but there's more I'd like to say to you. I don't know if you saw my last post that said I was leaving this forum because this is suppose to be a KJB only and they were using false verses from the epistle of Barnabas. I would like to stay, and do discussions with you and answer your questions. I certainly don't know everything but scripture from the KJB will be all I'll be using. I'll talked to you some more later if you want to. God Bless :)

Burning Bush

God is a consuming fire and it denotes an aspect of His holiness, which is different from what we have here. "And, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.".(Ex.3:2-4). *There was a voice from its midst calling his attention. Naturally the Spirit presents Moses as the double for his Son to which we have a book-end in the transfiguration of Jesus again with a mountain in the backdrop. (St. Matt. 17:1-9).

In both cases we are looking at the glory of God and the tree refers to the tree of righteousness in terms of the tree of life. In the other the glory of spiritual body and the holy mount is another reference to the Son. Thus we have the glory in terms of the Father Son relationship.

Second point to remember is the glory of the Word and Moses with Elijah are served as double for the Son. (See under L-logos). (Ex.3:1-4).

God set up an encounter with Moses and his scholarly turn of mind turned back as foreknown. "And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I".

Spirit of Christ represents the glory which did not consume the tree which foreshadows tree of Life or of righteousness. The voice of the Lord has sent forth the word (Is.55:11). It also augurs the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. (See under M-parallelism)

* Explanation

Compare "And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."(Re.6:6) The Spirit speaks on a non-verbal mode. While the four beast are continually praising God,holy,holy, holy' they keep their role as MC. They represent Glory of creation and Man as the steward. With each rider they alternate correspondingly. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see."(v.7)

Dear Jema,

You are conflating your perception of what you think is our view of Momsage with what we think. We do not think of her as weaker nor do are any of us intending to "pile on" her. This is not bullying. It is discussing with differing viewpoints. Others who think like Momsage are welcome to join our discussion. We are not singling her out in any way as a bully does, nor are we intentionally targeting her for mistreatment here. That has not occurred.

I can see you are very sensitive to people on this forum who seem weak or the underdog in a discussion in your eyes. I appreciate your compassion. But to call any of us bullies, aggressive, or invective in our posts to her is simply name-calling. You are assuming to know our motives and assume that we are attempting to bully or belittle her. We are definitely not intending this at all. So, please, let's be gracious to one another even as we discuss topics amongst one another. Our aim is to uplift, give thoughts to consider, and to express ideas that someone's original post prompts us to respond to.

Good Morning Jema,

It is good for you to be encouraging to Momsage.

I do not think Giannis, myself, or anyone else on this forum was being aggressive to Momsage nor where we trying to promote our selves, our scholarship, or our superiority. If that is what you get from our postings, I must say that you are reading more into what has been presented than what we said or meant. Also, speaking for myself, I like you, considering you a wonderful sister in Christ that God has blessed me with. I am sure others here think the same. So be assured that you are loved and cherished on this forum.

As for me, I try to read almost all of what is posted on this forum because I respect everyone's ideas, that they took the time to post, and that they are brethren. I read most posts because I can learn from others, be made to ponder a topic and then explore it more deeply myself, add my view to the discussion. I can answer a question and I can know prayer requests so I can have the privilege to pray for the need expressed. Yet, each person is free to decide how they participate on this forum and I respect that as well.

So, may you have peace today. May you be encouraged and know that you are appreciated here and loved for who you are in Christ as we all should be. It saddens me to know that you think that some of us do not like you. I hope that God will assure you of your love and acceptance here, especially by those of us who post here. Have a blessed day.

Well said, S. Spencer.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts today.

Hello again, Rainwalker,



Perhaps you have misunderstood my point concerning the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. The letter int he caser of the Decalogue is very specific but the spirt of the law encompasses so much more than just the acts spoken of in the Decalogue.

We are to be morally sound in our lives, not just in our outward acts, but inwardly, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to will and do what the Father wants us to do.

My post was not meant to be dismissive concerning moral actions. We are not to kill, commit adultery, etc. according to the Decalogue, but in the teachings of Jesus (Sermon on the Mount) and Paul's words concerning the law, we are to go deeper into what the Lord requires of us-not just outward obedience as the Pharisees did, but inwardly, with pureness of heart and true desire to live godly lives in the evil world we live in daily.

Praise the LORD for HIS Word.

John 1:

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

GOD to shine HIS face gloriously on all who love and look forward to HIS coming!

January 6, 2024

Study on Sabbath day

Acts 20:7 makes clear that gathering of the saints occurred on the first day of the week to bolster the collection made according to 1 Corinthians 16:2. The prescident is really from the fact that Christ fulfilled Pentacost which was the 8th day of the week (or Sunday) in the O.T. times was celebrated 50 days after the Passover.

Since we are not to have certain days to be held above others as Romans 14:5-6 indicates; we have no right to dictate either Saturday or Sunday for worship as I see it. Again; the Old Testament command was for Israel specifically as anyone in the land who disrespected the Sabbath was severely punished (see Deuteronomy 5:14). Other laws in the Old Testament such as marriage were clearly upheld even with pagan societies (as we see with the case of John the Baptist when he was imprisoned for contesting with the marriage status of a secular leader married to his brother's wife). Murder was evident with Cain well before the law came out. The fact is that Saturday worship can no longer be as it was without the sacrifices and other ordinances of the O.T. times which have been gone since the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Christ is our Passover now ( 1 Corinthians 5:7) and the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath ( Matthew 12:8).

We also need to consider what Paul stated to those who were coming from pagan societies. He said in Acts 15:29 to avoid eating blood; or strangled animals (often done in pagan rituals) as well as sexual immorality. If Saturday worship was required you would expect something would be mentioned as all other things in the Commandments which are throughout the New Testament in the Gospels and Epistles.

There are further concerns with Adventist doctrines and Ellen White which I am not going to get into detail here; but this often is an added reason for this and other issues of contention. I agree that the edict of Milan enforcing Sunday worship is wrong also.

Matthew Ch 18 V 1-7 , Mark Ch 9 V 33-42 . Do we believe that Jesus is speaking about physical children ? Or about our brothers and sisters in Christ ? Thy Kingdom Come .

May I also say that , when a group of people gang up on a person who they perceive ( rightly or wrongly ) to be weaker than them , that is the very definition of bullying .

I understand your point totally . I believe that we Christians should cherish and nourish each other , we can't do that if we have pushed someone away by using invective and aggressive (by your own admission ) language . We should never belittle each other or make each other feel inferior , either deliberately or accidentally . Some times people disappear from this site without any good bye , do we ever wonder why ? Do we ever consider that we , and I include myself , may have pushed some one away ? We will all have to answer to our Lord for the way we speak to each other , that's a very scary thought to me , I think it should be so to all of us .

I thought that I should address several things here. First of all, if we are to look at the Seventh Day Adventists and their teachings of Ellen White it is clear that there are spurious elements there; from her supposedly communicating with her late husband; to the predictions about the Lord's return. This is something I have just begun to investigate; but when you hear how commonplace demonic attacks are in their own pamphlets describing experiences that are always inexorably involved with this lady's teachings as being some sort of proposed solution you know there is a problem.

I wanted to differentiate between that and those such as Messianic Jews who may choose to worship on Saurdays. I have attended meetings in several of these type settings when I lived in Pittsburgh; and have seen how there is a fairly good acceptance of other believers such as myself who worship on Sundays. Nonetheless; there are reminders with events not to serve food that isn't considered Kosher which I suppose is ok not to offend those of the Jewish faith we wish to bring to Christ by not allowing our liberties to dissuade men. In regard to Saturday sabbath; it is clear that the PENALTY is for those who are in Israel who are cut off from God that disobey the Sabbath. In that regard it appears to be uniquely there for the Israelites only; while other laws such as divorce count for all men (as we see from examples with pagans who were told; for instance not to touch Abraham and Issac's wife when they were passed off as sisters; and John the Baptist being martyred for a pagan marrying his brothers wife). We could say the same of course for murder which is something found originally with Cain well before the law was delivered on Sinai.

God may well establish again some of this during the Millennial reign at least with the Temple which will keep people ceremonially clean around glorified saints and Christ after He returns as well as be a reminder of Christ's sacrifice for sin.

Romans 2 - King James Version

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the Judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the Judgment of GOD?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of GOD leadeth thee to repentance?

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of GOD;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth (GOD IS TRUTH), but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION and WRATH,

9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.

12For as many as have sinned without law (THE GENTILES) shall also PERISH WITHOUT LAW: and as many as have sinned in the LAW shall be JUDGED by the LAW;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before GOD,but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles(believers),WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, do BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness,and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16In the Day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

THE WORD IS GOD

Momsage

The theory or doctrine of the Law was invented and was sowed by those which interpreted the Law from a human perspective, in fact a stumbling block- Genesis 3:1, not from GOD's perspective- Matthew 16:23.

JESUS said: John 7:38-He that believes on me,as the Scripture has said,out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Thus, about Sababath,for the understanding of all of us here,I would ask for you: Do you believe in the Word made flesh,Lord JESUS? You know that The Word is GOD,right?The Word made flesh-Lord JESUS-,He Himself preached,saying:Mat.11:17-All the prophets and the Law prophesied until John,period.Therefore,GOD Himself established the Law to last 1500 years,from Moses until JESUS,no more,no more than this.

See,JESUS was not abolishing the Law His Father gave to Moses,it's evident: JESUS and the Father are One,although be two distincts Persons- Hebrews 1:3 & 8-, so,in fact,JESUS was only clarifying the period of validity of the Law given to Moses by His Father. GOD the Father had established The Law by His own power, the period of validity or prevalence of the Law lasted from Moses until JESUS specifically, understand?And JESUS only preached what GOD commanded Him to say to the people.JESUS said:Jo.12:49-I have not spoken of myself;but the Father which sent me,He gave me a commandment,what I should say,and what I should speak.

That said, keeping the Sabbath day over time after grace came, i.e.after JESUS came,these people do not do this by the Spirit of Christ,but by the letter written in the stone,according OT,the letter kills,and also they keep Sabbath day according to the calendar created and developed by devilish/satanic worshipers of the Beast of sea-Revevelation 13:1-10.

The true followers of my Lord JESUS do not fight against the Law of GOD given to Moses,but against seducing spirits,and doctrines of devils,speaking lies in hypocrisy;having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

Be careful- 2Peter 3:7&11-12 & Isaiah 33:10-14

Hello Jema

I understand your point to Momsage. We all have the tendency to defend people who may seem weak to our eyes (in knowledge or anything else) and get bullyied by others. But here this is not a case of bullying. It is a matter of truth. It is not adequate for one to sit home and read their Bible, God doesn't work like that. That is why He gave the ministries to the church ( Ephesians 4:11), one of them is the teacher, also the Pastor. If we could just stay away from a congregation and read our Bibles and learn everything, God wouldn't give those ministries. But God's work is mainly within the church, not outside it, and we need teachers and people who know a bit more than we do, even history.

I don't claim I am a teacher, I am not. But some things I know, as well as other brothers and sisters, may help somebody to see clearer, or even me. So we put forward what we know, and if the other person has something to say, let them say it. We don't reject somebody's believes without hearing them first. If I have nothing to say to defend my position then this becomes obvious to others. If I don't know much I must either be ready to learn from others otherwise why do I get into a discussion? Is all that wrong? Sorry you are bothered, it is true that sometimes we may seem aggresive but our aim is not to insult the other person but to show what we know it is true. GBU

Hello GiGi

You are absolutely right. Also it is prefferable to have those churches than nothing. In Europe in countries where those churches play a significant role in the society, usually Southen/Eastern Europe, people are closer to God and His commandments than the North where people are almost completely atheists and this is obvious from the no. of divorces, rate of crime, etc. But I wish they could just open their eyes and see and follow the truth. How a great salvation it could be done. In my country more than 95% of people have been baptized as Orthodox christians when they were infants. They often attend the church liturgies, take part in celebtations, festivals, fastings, everything...but their everyday life doesn't show Christ. If that church could see the truth and preach it, my God what a great salvation would result, I believe thousand and millions of people would have been saved. Another thing is that we must honor those churches, apart from condemning them all the time. This may sound strange but let us not forget that Christianity was spread throughout the world mainly by those 2 churches, the Catholics in the West and the Orthodoxes in the East. If those didn't exist, probably we wouldn't have learned anything about Christ. As we owe honor to Israel because they kept the faith to the real God for so many millenia so that the church found it at the end, the same way we owe honor to those churches because they kept the faith for so many centuaries untill we found it. This is justice. But we also have to talk to them about their errors. We really can not do much, but God is powerful to change that all completely. I believe that as we are approaching the end and the sin in the world is becoming biger and biger, the stonger our God's power will be revealed to the world. We can talk to everybody about our faith but if God doesn't show His strength not much will be done. So our prayes here is to see God powerful again, as the ancient times. ( Joel 2:23)

GBU

I understand your frustration Momsage , I too am extremely irritated when people put too much importance on what other , ordinary people say and think about the Bible as if they are in some way superior in knowledge to any of us . We are all reading the same book so any knowledge from that book is available for all of us to read and understand . All that is required is dedication patience and prayer and any of us can know the Truth . Humans have always tried to add or subtract from the Word of God , claiming to know or understand things better than others , as if they have some mystical gift , basically trying to make themselves into something special when all we need to know us available to all in the Bible . This is why many churches , especially in the past , did not encourage their congregation to actually read the Bible for themselves . I wish you would stay with us , I notice that you talk a lot about one particular subject , the Sabbath , it would be interesting to talk about other aspects of the Bible also :) it's a big book so there's plenty to talk about . I have often felt like never reading this site ever again but , hopefully you will cool down and come back , I always do :) . It can feel a bit as if everyone is against you on here sometimes but I handle that by not reading the posts of people that I know don't like me much :) it works wonders :):):) . Hope you will pop back and have a chat soon , maybe try a different subject ? Much love in Christ .

Momsage, 3/3

In 1 Cor 16 Paul asks Corinthians to gather money for Corinthians every Sunday, "2.Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

Why on Sundays when they could all meet on Saturdays (assuming they celebrated Sabbaths)? If Sunday was a congregation day why did they postpone the offerings untill the next day, and if Sunday was not a congregation day for them why bother coming again to the church to do that?

From the practise of my church. We meet twice during the week and on Sundays (some churches in big cities meet every day). During the week not everybody comes to the church, people are busy with their jobs, kids, all sort of things or are very tired to go to the church. But on Sundays everybody comes because they are free and also want to take part in the breaking of the Bread, etc. So it is Sundays that we offer money for the the needs of the church, so that we can get the most of it. So if one wants to get the most of it they would gather money on Sundays, not say Wednesdays It is obvious, isn't it? So the main service of the church was done on Sundays when apart from taking part in the breaking of the bread, they offered money for the function of the church or the poor, etc, thus Sunday was the most important day for them, not Saturday.

Sometime later on I will go on with what Paul says about Sabbaths.

GBU

Momsage, 2/3

Lets talk from the scriptures.

1. Acts 20:7, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

Isn't obvious here that the Breaking of bread was done during Sunday? Why does the text mention the breaking of bread? Answer, because at that time the breaking of bread was not done during the church service in the morning, but christians sat on tables in the evening and had it then, exactly the way Jesus did it with His disciples before He was crucified. (also see 1 Cor 11:20-32 where Paul talks about Lord's supper which was done on Lord's day/Sunday. If you look this up in history books those suppers were called "agapae" [grk for love, plural] and that habit was eventually abandoned sometime during the 2nd century) So we can understand how Paul kept teaching until midnight, otherwise one may wonder how true can be that Paul preached from morning to midnight. But from that little detail we know now that the breaking of bread was done on Sundays. We also find out that the breaking of bread was done every Sunday, not once every 2-3 months or whenever some planned it, like in some churches (If it was done once in a while the text would say "on one of the first days or a first day, in greek this is more clear than the Engl translation)

Now if Sabbath was still the main congregation day and holiday, would the christians perform the most important act of the church function on another day? I wouldn't think so.

Hello Momsage, 1/2

The Epistle of Barnabas as well as the Didache were books that were very popular among christians during the first 2-3 centuries AD. Although not God inspired like the NT they shed light to the practises and beliefs of the ancient church and fill the gaps of knowledge we have about things not described (or are not very clear) in the NT about the beliefs, the church function, etc of those early times.

Well you keep mentioning the catholic church and what some catholic priests and catholic encyclopedias claim. On the internet one can find the history of the church, there is a lot of information, so you can look all those things up, not always from the catholic side of view. In general the catholic church didn't emerge as a separate church before 1054 AD although the Pope and the church of Rome were a significant part of christianity many centuries before.The so called Post Apostolic Fathers like Ignatius and Justin and Clement and many others were Greeks who lived during the time the church was united. If you pay attention to their writtings the way they say the Holy Communion(or breaking of bread, Eucharist) was to be done is very different to the way the catholics do it.

For your own information, in the following centuries the greeks never became catholics, they formed the Eastern Orthodox church which was always in "war" with the catholics. For a greek at those later times to call them a catholic was like a big insult really.

So you have been given a lot of references on the writtings and beliefs of those early christians, what else would you like? Maybe you should try to read what others say as well about these things, not only very specific books.

About historical proofs about what catholics say, I can not do that. I came out of the Greek Orthodox church many years ago and joined a reborn congregation. So I know quite a few about the church at that time etc, but I am not really intersted in searching things like that in such a detail.