Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 80

Funny thing about the "spirit" of the law, you ever notice it always includes the "letter"?.. I mean, can we adhere to the spirit of the law concerning adultery, yet be free to commit the actual act according to the letter? Of course not, the "moral law" doesn't change, the ceremonial law has been nailed to the cross.

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles," and St Paul cites grafting in the context of the early church that is being built on the foundation of Christ. The analogy of an olive tree we have in the epistle (Ro.11:24) where reconciling the world was a wish left unfulfilled. What hindered the kingdom building?

The Spirit introduces this verse "And if the root be holy, so are the branches."(Ro.11:16b)

How the church historically is grafted to Rome is unholy. In the Book of Daniel it is called miry clay and heresies are its natural world. So who deceived the builders so instead of the doctrine of Christ we are left with the supremacy of Pope and the Church of Rome as the Mother Church? 'If the root be holy' tells it all.

No wonder we have a tree not planted by God but by man. It is not 'I am the true Vine and ye are the branches '

"Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."(11:18) How long shall a believer let carried from truth?

"and if the root be holy, so are the branches."(Ro.11:16b)

I see in this forum lot of arguments regarding the Sabbath, and I wonder why are we splitting hairs while we have come to the ends of the world,?- and there is some mighty shaking that is about to set off. The Jews could not enter the rest God promised them since observance of the day was good enough for them. Not live therein to His praise and glory.

God blessed man on the sixth day and sanctified it since his calling and gifts are irrevocable. What stopped them from entering into God's rest but disbelief? "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."(1 Co.10:11-13) As His mercies are new everyday what prevents our churches from entering into the rest? Culture wars of the ungodly are very much within. How the church historically is grafted to Rome is unholy. In the Book of Daniel it is called miry clay trying to fit with the iron of pagan world. No wonder dialogue is never about settling the spiritual significance of the day but about the letter which kills. It is thus literal reading of the Holy writ has created divisions. If the root be unholy, what about her branches, the Reformation of Luther Calvin, Charismatic movements but a snake-pit to breed controversies? When God shakes the world as it shall happen before long and after the dust clears we shall see the word of God once again shaping a world the pure speech shall be found."For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent."(Zep.3:9)

Have a good evening, Momsage. We can talk more tomorrow on a different topic. I am sort of done with this one.

I'm so sorry GiGi but I thought these discussions were based on the inspired Word of God - the King James Bible. I don't understand how you can quote someone outside the KJB. That is the authority here, not some obscure document that wasn't canonized. I'm confused why the people in charge of this discussion forum allowed references from a false document that was not from the KJB. How can I trust anything in any discussion anymore. Please don't misunderstand me, I think you are a very nice, smart woman but I am going to get out of here now.

Where did Barnabas 15:9 come from? Not the KJB?

A post from GiGi: "Thank you for offering us these quotes from these believing leaders in the time when apostle John was still alive (before 95AD. and/or in the decades shortly after he died. Many of the writers of the 100's AD were appointed to their offices by the apostles or by one who was appointed by an apostle. They were men of faith in our Lord."

If this is biblical or a historical please give me references. Also, please tell me, with historical proof, why this quote is not authentic. "It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo

God Bless :)

Hello again, Momsage,

You can look up the "Epistle of Barnabas" for more information. It was written in the 1st 100 years of the church.

It is a different document than the "Gospel of Barnabas" which was written in the Middle Ages and is heretical.

Hope this helps.

Hello again, I re-read my post to you. My statements are a summing up of what I have learned about church history on this topic. i do not have quotes for you.

Quotes are good in some ways, and I appreciate the ones you have supplied, but the quotes of a few people may or may not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the majority, nor be the "official" teaching of a sect.

My suggestion to you is to go to sites that cover the history of the early church times between AD 35 and 150 AD to find out more about how the church functioned and what a variety of church leaders have said on certain topics. This can give you the comprehensive information you desire to consider.

I do not expect anyone to just simply take my word for anything, but hope that anyone who is truly serious about finding out about a topic, especially one that is well documented in the early church, that person should do their own study so they can learn for themselves,

Dear Momsage,

I know that you are looking for sources from me and others who are discussing the topic of the Sabbath commandment. I cannot yet give you sources. Giannis is the one who quoted Barnabas, so perhaps he knows more on this. I can (and you can) search online to find out more about the Barnabas quote or any others mentioned in Giannis' post.

On my part, I really am feeling that I am to only be involved in this discussion if the Spirit directs me to, so I'm being prayerful concerning this thread.

Blessings to you in every way.

Hi Giannis,

I read your reply to me again and I just would like to clarify a few things. It is true that secularism has been taken into churches of every denomination. Yet, this does not mean that they are now TOTALLY secular. The Scriptures are still read at services and God is still important to the life of the congregation for the most part. Prayer is still encouraged for those in need. And help for the poor and needy is still promoted.

We can commend churches who continue to do these things as well as adhering to doctrines that are biblically sound. And we can speak against teachings and practices that are worldly, secular, and in error as pertains to biblical teachings and doctrines that depart from the doctrines of the apostles or are added such as the doctrines concerning Mary or the prosperity doctrine or the "little gods" doctrine, or universalism, or other doctrines that have become popularly accepted over the centuries in both the Catholic church and Protestant sects. We are all to watch our life and doctrine carefully, as Paul instructs and to check ourselves to see that we are truly of the apostolic faith passed down to the church of Jesus our Lord.

I pray that His church will come to the unity of faith based on the inspired word of God and through the knitting of us together in love and common doctrine by the Holy Spirit.

Hi GiGi: I'm a little confused. Where did Barnabas 15:9 come from? Also, could you help me out and provide historical proof of what you are saying? You reference way back in history which you could only have gotten from historical records so I'd love to read them. I know you have been studying for years so please excuse me for picking your brain.

These are the quotes I used in my discussion with Chris. Please tell me why these are not authentic?

"Constantine published the Edict of Milan, granting freedom of religion in the empire and establishing Sunday a day of worship"

Collier Encyclopedia, vol 7, p. 212

"It was the Holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest form Saturday to Sunday, the first day of the week. And it not only compelled all to keep Sunday, but at the Council of Laodician, AD 364, anathematized (cursed) those who kept the Sabbath and urged all persons to labor on the 7th day under penalty of anathema (excommunication.)" Catholic Priest T. Enright, CSSRR, Kansas city, Mo

"The Bible says remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic Church says No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. and low the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church." American Sentinel, Father Enright, 1893

God Bless :)

I posted them by mistake. I wasn't done proofreading them. Sorry for the confusion.

Pt. 3

When we stop to gas up our car on the Sabbath or pick up a few needed food items at the store we are expecting that there are others who will break the Sabbath law on Saturday or Sunday to provide these services for us. Is that right? While we are endeavoring to "Keep" the Sabbath, how many people are required to work in order for us to live out the day with electricity, water, sewer services, police officers and fire fighters who work on the Sabbath we keep to provide protection for us and our neighbors at all times. I do not think they are sinning if they work and I do not think that any believer sins if they rest at times other than the Sabbath. We live by the Spirit, not by the letter of the Law as Jesus (who gave the Law) illustrated so well in His Sermon on the Mount in Matthew's Gospel.

Some things to think about.

Please, Rainwalker, your disdain for other believers who do not adhere to your version of Christian ethics is on display here in your posts. I would suggest that you instead show love, graciousness, compassion, and forbearance to others who differ from you.

The world's disdain for Christians is enough for us to face. We do not need to be on the receptive end of such treatment fro believers. Exhortation is acceptable, as well as reproof, but sarcastic criticism of others in blanket statements is none of these biblical means of correcting one another in brotherly love mixed with grace and mercy.

While you may have a point about SOME Christians (especially leaders) who take a firm stance concerning tithing, which is not mandated by Paul or the other apostolic writers. These apostles emphasized that giving is voluntary according to the lead of the Holy Spirit. The emphasis on tithing and Sabbath keeping are two items that are not mandated in the writings of the apostles for the church. In the gospels, Jesus was living under the law in order to fulfill it completely for us. It is He who is flawless concerning the Law and the will of God. None of us are so. We are sinners, He is not. So these facts are the reason we are under the Law of Christ, where He has fulfilled all of the Law for us. This does not mean that we are to live without regard to the intent of God's moral commands.

For example, the Law says to not bear false witness against a neighbor (this is in reference to legal matters), but the Spirit of the Law is that we are honest with one another and speak truthfully concerning our neighbor.

The Law says not to commit adultery, but the Spirit of the law is to not think lustfully at all ever, let alone act in a sexually immoral way.

The Law gives very specific instructions that are helpful for us to live together in peace and love, but the Spirit of the Law gives us power to live obediently to the lead of the Holy Spirit in every circumstance. see pt. 2

Funny how so many "Christians" are adamant about the tithes, which were in "the law", but not written by the finger of God. Yet, the 4th commandment, which WAS written by The Almighty God himself, is constantly bombarded with out of context statements to try and prove that it's no longer applicable.

Thank you for your questions, Christianlady7; I assume that they are directed to whoever wishes to respond. There has been much discussion on this subject recently - you may care to pore over them as well. But if I may, I will respond to you now also with a series of questions to consider.

You mentioned, "we change things from Elohim's original intent or design...". In general, yes we have a tendency to do that, sometimes wilfully to suit our inclinations & desires, & other times, because we try to make them fit into a society & norms in which we live. So my questions: what then was Yahweh's original intent & design for the giving of the Law (the Ten Commandments)? To whom was it given? What was its purpose? And did it have an expiry date? Was there any Law instituted subsequent to it? As you no doubt have read through the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) & the apostolic teaching in the New Testament concerning these matters (especially in Romans, Galatians, & Hebrews), you will learn the answers.

Now why do some Christians hold onto the Ten Commandments as if they still applied to them, I cannot tell for sure; except that maybe they haven't thought through the questions I've shared here & even if they have, it might come down to, 'well it is in the Bible & it is given from the Mouth of God, so we must accept them & apply them even for today'. This answer sounds good, but in all things pertaining to the Bible, we need to be asking ourselves questions about the passages, doctrines, or teachings we read about, so that we not only know the Mind of God & His Purposes in them, but also if and how to apply them to us as His Church today. Blessings.

Hi Robert, I pray that your treatment did indeed go well today. I am sorry that cancer is attacking your body. I will be praying for you when I pray for those I know fighting against cancer. Keep us posted, please.

Exodus 20: 8-11 also Deuteronomy 5:12-14

8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (The original Greek word for hallowed is "qadash" meaning to set apart or consecrate.)



As you can see, there is nothing here about drinking wine, although you can. But this day was given specifically

for rest, not food and fellowship. But doing it that way is good. To me it is a given for us to worship God and fellowship on our day of rest.

I do whole heartly agree with this that you said: "As He is with us every day without exception , so should we be aware of Him every day and always be trying to do only those things that we know are pleasing to Him ." Being a true Christian means a 100% commitment to our Lord - including obeying ALL his commandments because the 4th is for our physical, mental and spiritual good; to rest every week on the seventh day. The church has somehow abandoned this command of God and seems to think He doesn't care, but how can we justify keeping the other's and discarding this one? Even if the early church did start worshipping on the first day of the week after the crucifixion of Jesus (they didn't) they were also being disobedient to God's commandment and at that time in history would have been severely punished by the Jews because they would have been breaking the sabbath. God Bless:)

Hi Christianlady7: Welcome to this discussion. God wrote the 10 commandments Himself and then gave Moses the laws, statues and ordinances to build on this foundation of His commandments. While they were originally given to the Jews, obviously, all the laws GOD gave are meant for mankind for always. Jesus said He came to fulfil the law not destroy it. Matthew 5:17 -18 (17)"Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (He didn't add "except the 4th, that one I've changed to the 1st day of the week." Please excuse my sarcasm. The NT has many scriptures that tell us, although we are not saved by the law, it is there to point to sin so we know why we need a Savior.

I especially agree with your comment of, how when we change the things of God they diminish in value. Changing the day of rest, the seventh day of the week, to Sunday has, as I know you are aware, become NO day of rest for the believer or anyone else. This hurts our witness. We cannot pick and choose the commandments to suit ourselves. The early church honored the Sabbath until about 35AD to 100AD. After that time many "ravening wolves" ( Matthew 7:15) had begun to enter in and by 345AD Emperor Constantine held the Laodicean Council and changed the day of rest to the first day of the week to stop persecution of Jews and Christians for worshipping on the Sabbath. There were many people already practicing rest and worship on the first day so He made it a law to stop the persecution. This is a simple account of the history. If you search Laodicean Council you can learn a lot more about it. Just be careful to backup what you read or hear by scripture. Again, welcome and I hope you will join in with this discussion as it goes along. God Bless :)

yes, more kindness, I agree.. my righteous indignation comes out.

Hey Chris: Actually I'm glad you responded and I was wrong about being at an impass. We ARE growing closer in understanding each other and I'd like to continue. I'll respond more fully in a bit. God Bless :)

Hello Giannis. Hope you're busy day went well. I am sorry if in my discussions you felt like I was debating because I wanted to "push my beliefs on others " because that certainly wasn't my intent. I have decided to continue the discussion with Chris if he wants too. God bless :)

Hey Rainwalker: Thank you for your reply. I gather from your reply you agree the 4th commandment should be honored. I would like to say its rare to hear from a believe who does. I hope you will be a little more kind in your replies, however, we all love each other on this forum and are friends. God Bless :)

Hello Christianlady7 , my thoughts are that the Sabbath of the old testament is a foreshadow of the true Sabbath which will be , the thousand year reign of Christ on earth , during which we , if we have been acceptable to God , will live and reign with Christ and be like unto the angels , helping and teaching humans in the way of truth . We are instructed to meet together to partake of the bread and wine but no specific day is given , we should be worshipping God every day , through our prayers , our reading of the Bible and by taking Jesus as our example and showing the love of God to all we come into contact with every single day . Every day should be a day of worship , without exception , our whole lives , once we know the Truth , should be centered around our Dear Heavenly Father . As He is with us every day without exception , so should we be aware of Him every day and always be trying to do only those things that we know are pleasing to Him . Being a Christian is a daily commitment , not a weekly one .

I agree with how the Sabbath day has been changed. Have you noticed how when we change things from Elohim's original intent or design..it also loses value. Such as marriage, drinking, gender etc. It's Satan's way..I think for these things to lose value and just diminish.

The Baptist teach that Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Not sure what to think. I understand that the new testament does warn against honoring one day over another, but not sure what to think here. Also ceremonial law was done away with by Jesus..no more need for daily sacrifices. Then there are ones who say we should just choose one day a week and rest and devote that day to Yahweh because no one really knows about the calendars from one area of the country to another, and says may have been different then, sure they weren't named days etc.

Thoughts,?

Thanks Momsage. I respect that you don't wish to continue this discussion on the Sabbath Day; though I don't see that we have reached an impasse, rather we are drawing closer to understanding each other, using Scripture & Church practise as our rule, as we eliminate spurious references to Sabbath Day or Sunday worship.

You wrote in another post that you provided much evidence to support the belief that the Church maintained its 'Sabbath Day worship' position. I may have missed it, as I only remember you quoted Constantine, the Laodicean Council, an RC Priest Enright, Jeremy Taylor, & maybe others. Yet, verifiable references were given you of men/writings such as Justin the Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, the Didache (apostolic teachings), Clement of Alexandria, and others, who referred to Christians meeting on a Sunday rather than the Sabbath - all these were men who preceded the men/council you referred to. It is true that Sunday worship was ordered & ratified much later by those of the RC persuasion, but the point in this discussion is, where does the truth lie & does an RC edict cause all believers to blindly follow it? I would think that a lot more weight needs to be given to the testimony of those men (post-apostolic) & if not, then the reason(s) for their disallowance needs to be given.

And lastly, the Ten Commandments are a single unit of obedience & requirements for Israel, not given to Gentiles nor the Church. The breaking of even one of them meant judgement - for the Law could never give life ( Galatians 3:19-21). How many in the Church have converted that Law given only to Israel to now apply to the Church as well, still mystifies me (as I read how the Law, though holy & good, has now been abrogated through Christ's death). The point that should be discussed is the relationship of that old Law to the Law given us (applied to our hearts) by the Spirit, & why some choose to fuse the two together when it cannot be done. See Hebrews 7:12,18,19. GBU.

Thanks for your graciousness, Momsage.

I, too, am pretty straightforward. Some people appreciate this and some do not. We should always aim for harmony and graciousness, as you have to me, but it is true that at times, people can become upset about what someone says in a post. And the response to being upset can take many forms. We just need to be prayerful, humble, and ready to engage when it is helpful to do so and to disengage when it is best to do so. Have a good evening, Momsage. I like the way you describe us sitting down for a chat. Warms my heart.

Hello Momsage

Well I do feel that I owe to present my opinion scripturally. I have done it historically so far. About debating, it is true that we all like debating sometimes in order to "push" our beliefs to others and we all occasionally get passionate. So don't worry. Also do not feel obliged to respond.

But not today, I have no free time. Probably tomorrow. Have a blessed day. GBU

Hey Momsage, the truth is, they are all about the "commandments" until it comes to the 4th one. Sure, all the others are applicable, well.. of course, except this 4th one. Truth is, they don't have the spiritual "guts" to obey that one. Too scared they gonna look "funny".. or weird. They would rather throw out a bunch of scriptures out of context to hide behind; Rather than prayerfully try it out of obedience. Spiritual "whimps".. stay away from the "straight" gate.

Hi GiGi: What a mess you must be dealing with. It is a blessing the insurance will cover most of it and your husband is qualified to help with them. My prayers are with for a quick cleanup and settlement of this issue. Thank you for your comment . Seeing a post form you is like having a good friend knock on your door for a cup of coffee and chat, especially with homemade cinnamon rolls. Yum. The only reason I worry about my discussions as being to passionate is that I will offend someone but I hope I haven't. I state my view in a straightforward way so I may come across to abrupt sometimes. You are an uplifting part of this forum. God Bless :)