Bible Discussion Replies PAGE 83

Baptism

So many theologies I'm learning I think I'll wait a few more years and, above all, seek to understand what God wants me to do.

I talk to many friends who are already advanced in the teachings of the Lord and have already been baptized.

One of them told me that she felt the Lord was asking her to do it again.

Note: she gave me permission to share this testimony.

This particular friend said that, the second time, something changed - the atmosphere became peaceful.

She said that when the pastor asked, "Do you accept Jesus.?", she, while speaking to Jesus, replied, "No, I want to do it!" and began to tremble.

Because she heard the question in a different way: "Do you accept to make videos and share your testimonies?"

Today, she is making the videos and, each day, continues more steadfastly, reaching other people and knowing Jesus more deeply in her life.

God knows exactly what He is doing with each of His children.

Thanks responding Gigi.

There has been plenty of discussions on the rapture topic and the proof has been presented.

The rapture isn't what we call the second coming.

You said you agree that our gathering to the Lord will be quick after the sounding of the trumpet and the appearing of Jesus, which is why the term harpazo is used. But I believe that this passage is speaking of the second and only return of Jesus at the end of the age.

Thanks, that gives me something to build off of.

I will attempt to show why I don't believe that it speaks of the second coming.

Give me some time because I am in the middle of preparing for my work week.

And as for your question "e" "Where does Scripture teach that Jesus would have gone on to establish His kingdom on earth if the Jews would have accepted Him as their Messiah?

I also don't believe in that.

I believe that the cross was necessary to atone for the sins of the world.

In Matthew 26:39-44 Jesus prayed 3 times "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

If it was any other way like the Jews accepting Christ as savior the Father didn't answer that prayer.

That would be totally against all of scripture clear back to Genesis!

And we would be still under the Levitical priesthood and the old covenant!

That would also be against what is mentioned throughout the book of Hebrews!

Especially Hebrews 9:15-17.

I also don't recall ever seeing that viewpoint being presented on this site.

I also don't see how that fits into a dispensationalists theology or viewpoint.

Thanks and God bless.

Hello GiGi,

You are correct. The Bible does not teach multiple raptures and returns of Christ. Nor does it teach that Christ will return to establish an earthly kingdom on this sin-cursed earth; that was the mistake that the Nation of Israel made 2000 years ago and that those that teach this idea make today.

We must keep in mind that if we have come to any Truth from the Bible, it is only by God's mercy and grace. We can take no personal credit for this in any way.

Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God, ie Christ Himself.

May we walk very humbly before God, praying that He might lead us into Truth as we search the Scriptures, using the principles that God Himself has set forth in His Word. Praying also that He might give us an earnest desire to be obedient to that Truth.

We could all benefit by reading Romans 9 very carefully. Applying the principle that Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spake He not.

Dear Chris,

Getting back to you on this response. Question e is a belief that many dispensationalist state is true. It is not an hypothetical question in their view if they believe it to have occurred if the Jews had received Jesus as their Messiah in his lifetime.

I am trying to understand where in Scripture this belief is taught. If you are not able to answer this question, that's o.k. with me. And if you do not believe this dispensational belief as true, please tell me.

Saying it is hypothetical seems to me to be a bit evasive or dismisses of my question. Please understand that I am desiring to gain answers to my questions that are clear and to the point.

I do thank you for taking the time to attempt to help me out here. I always appreciate your inpu.

Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

Luke 18:17 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

Blessings

Dear S. Spencer.

I am genuinely wanting to have my questions answered with Scripture. I do hope that one who holds to dispensational beliefs will do so.

Then I can make determinations as to the verses given do indeed affirm the dispensational beliefs I've encountered on this forum and other sources.

As to the issue of the Rapture, though I did not ask about this in my post to Lbooth, but I do want to get definitive Scriptural proof that it will occur the way Dispensationalism teaches that has Jesus returning twice, once in a rapture and with a passage of years, Jesus coming to bring this age to an end.

When I read the Thessalonian passage you have given, I agree that our gathering to the Lord will be quick after the sounding of the trumpet and the appearing of Jesus, which is why the term harpazo is used. But I believe that this passage is speaking of the second and only return of Jesus at the end of the age. Dispensationalists speak of the Rapture being "secret". This verse speaks of the gathering of the saints as a loud, visible event. Dispensationalists are inferring something in this text that I do not see taught elsewhere in Scripture.

If you or any other dispensationalist can give me Scriptural verses that explicitly, plainly, and directly say that Jesus will return twice, once for His church, and once more at the consummation of the age, I would appreciate that.

I know you expect me to defend my position with Scripture, and I would be glad to do so, but how can I do so if I do not get a straight answer from dispensationalists about the verses where their beliefs are taught explicitly, plainly, and directly in such a way that do not contradict other teachings of Jesus concerning His second coming.

So, for now. I would hope that one who is dispensationalist would answer my questions with Scriptural support so that I can consider properly what a dispensationalist is claiming to be biblical teaching.

Respectfully, GIGI

Yes Mr. Spencer,

There certainly will be a rapture and resurrection of true believers on the Last Day when Christ returns on the clouds of glory to wrap up his judgment and salvation program, destroy this sin-cursed earth, and create New Heavens and New Earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

2 Peter 3:10-15 "10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;"

See earlier response re Kingdom of Christ.

Amen The Bible Alone.

You have to compare scripture with scripture" throughout the WHOLE Bible using proper hermeneutics.

You'll get definitive answers.

You can't study past writings to settle theology or doctrine disputes.

I've read some of Gigi's questions and they're answered in most the scriptures!

When we build a doctrine, there's 2 ways to do it.

1) We look for what's definitive,

2) We have to use proper hermeneutics and interpret scripture.

When you ask for a definitive answer to a doctrine and seek to find it in one scripture, you leave off from studying and interpreting scripture.

You can't ignore the whole counsel of God.

You cannot hang everything on one scripture.

If you use scripture in its proper context and collaborate the whole counsel of God it gives a definitive answer. Of course hermeneutics is important.

The issue I have is when people set aside the scripture and wants to deal with theology or doctrine without giving their own ( Scriptural ) reasons for their rebuttal.

(THEIR OWN SCRIPTURAL REBUTTAL!)

That's the only way I see to bridge the disconnect.

I need to see Gigi's present a Scriptural definitive reasons she declines these questionable doctrines.

For instance, She says she doesn't see any Scriptural proof of the rapture in the Bible.

You find it here in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be "CAUGHT UP" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ( It's also found in other places)

The Latin word "rapturo," which translates to the Greek "harpazo," meaning "caught up.

It means to snatch away!

Whether it's pre-trib or post-trib. there is a definite removal of saints according to that verse.

If not what does it mean?

You shouldn't reject ones interpretation without giving your own!

What does it mean and provide Scriptural proof of your own if you don't accept the dispensationalist interpretations.

Blessings

Dear Richard,

i will be praying for your wife and for you. Is it possible that she had some sort of stroke to cause only half of her throat to not work properly? But this is a serious disorder. I am glad she is getting treatment. I will pray that it works.

Thanks again, Chris.

I asked those questions specifically because these are what many dispensationalists believe. I realize that there are

among dispensationalists a range of degrees of thought from classical dispensationalists, such as Darby, Scofield, Shafer and others along a continuum towards progressive dispensationalists, which most likely you fit into.

There are those who follow the teachings of Clarence Larkin. Those, like Lbooth, which identify as Mid-Acts dispensationalists and those who have positions as End of Acts dispensationalists.

I was addressing what I have read as tenets of these groups in my questions, many of which have made statements attesting to what my questions address on this site.

I have many other questions to ask dispensationalists as to Scriptural support of their beliefs, but I started with the ones I posted because they speak to how dispensationalists attempt to interpret Scripture in general.

I thank you for the time you have taken to address my questions.

Hey MotherMac,

Sorry for the delayed reply.

It's good to hear from you. Different understandings of this subject may disagree with mine. I'm not sure I can fully answer your questions; others may have more information, but I will share my best understanding. Many believe the great white throne judgment is only for the condemned, but I think there will be both groups, as you mentioned, with the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. We also have Daniel 12:2, which seems to refer to the same resurrection, and John 5:28-29, where the ones who did good and those who did evil are in the same resurrection.

This second resurrection includes the rest of the dead who were not in the first resurrection, as well as all the people who lived and died during Jesus' 1,000-year reign over the earth. Some also lived before Jesus and after His ascension, who never heard of Jesus or the gospel. But that is not an excuse, Romans 1:18-20.

I believe Romans 2:11-16 is about the judgment of those who have not heard the gospel. You may not agree, but it tells us that everyone has a conscience, referred to as the heart, Proverbs 4:23. Everyone has an awareness of God, which guides us morally in discerning right from wrong. Those of us in Christ who are in the first resurrection have been given the Holy Spirit, which offers us even more guidance, and God and Christ can dwell within us, with our sins covered by the blood of Jesus.

It says everyone will be judged based on what is written in the books, according to their works. This is a book of deeds listing good and bad. It may be the same as the book of remembrance; I'm not sure. I would think the book of the law would be opened, Deuteronomy 30:10-15. Some may say the book of the covenant is the same as the book of the law, and the Book of Life; they may be more, but I'm not sure. Those in this judgment not found in the most important book, the Book of Life, have their part in the Lake of Fire.

God bless,

RLW

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

John 18:33-38 "Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault [at all]".

Hebrews 11:13-16 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were STRANGERS AND PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEAK A COUNTRY. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a BETTER [country], that is, an HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath PREPARED FOR THEM A CITY"

Read 2 Peter 3. "12...wherein the HEAVENS being ON FIRE shall be DISSOLVED, and the ELEMENTS shall MELT with FERVENT HEAT? 13 Nevertheless we, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, look for NEW HEAVENS AND A NEW EARTH, WHEREIN DWEALLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS."

I'm new to this site and I was quite surprised at all the "in-depth" individual analysis being offered here. I'm 72 years old and was raised in the Baptist Faith. I was taught if its gonna happen it's because God willed it to happen because he is God, the Alpha and Omega, and he is in control of everything in this world. In my opinion, people don't have to "overthinK" the books of the Bible especially Revelation because it's still gonna happen the way it's written. Save all the questions and analysis and ask God when you meet him because it's gonna be sooner than you think. Does anyone think that after the huge earthquake in Russia that a volcano erupted which has been silent for over 600 years was not by the hand of God?

Hello Chris,

The discussion here between you and GiGi bears on the fundamental question as to "how are we to approach the Bible to obtain Truth?" If we have the wrong approach, we will be unable to come to Truth. And of course, we must always recognize that even if we approach the Bible correctly, it is God Himself that must open our understanding and apply that Truth to our Mind and Heart.

First and foremost, we must recognize that God Himself, is the AUTHOR of the ENTIRE Bible in its original languages...not Paul or Luke or Jeremiah or Moses. These were scribes recording exactly the words and phrases that God Himself chose to use to write the Bible.

This is why we are COMMANDED to "compare scripture with scripture" throughout the WHOLE Bible because God is the Author of the WHOLE Bible. This means that the Bible is its OWN INTERPRETER and its OWN DICTIONARY. God Himself is the determiner of how He may use a specific Word or Phrase in its Immediate and Whole Bible context to convey the Truth He is Teaching. So that we MUST NOT isolate verses from either their Immediate or Whole Bible context in coming to Truth. Every conclusion we come to can and must be tested with anything and everything God declares about that conclusion throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE. There are no contradictions whatsoever in the Word of God.

A second Key principle as to how we are to understand the Bible is expressed in Mark 4. Christ, God Himself spoke in parables and "...without a parable spake He not...and when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples." This concept is not understood by many that seek to understand the Scriptures. But when we understand that God is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and wrote the Bible not only to reveal Truth but also to hide Truth, this principle becomes clear.

Every Bible passage has a Spiritual significance and is teaching us something about the Nature of God's Judgment and Salvation program.

We must follow God's Hermeneutic and not our own.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Deuteronomy 31:6 "Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee."

Psalms 55:17 "Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice."

Blessings

Matt.22.14 "144,000"

What is the significance of 144,000? It is a total count for the day decreed for the Son. Jesus announced,"My Father worketh hitherto and I work." Doctrine of Christ is how he translated holiness of God in his person. Brightness of his glory transfiguring the Son of man at the holy mount proved the express image of his person.(Mt.17.2) The voice from heaven 'hear ye him' referred to the Word that was God. He was word become flesh but his glory established his gospel and of his Father was one and the same. Not an iota or jot was misplace. So the tag 12 from two POV makes it 12x12. "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."(Mt.5.17). 12x12,1000 =144,000

Gen.1 began with God creating heaven and the earth. The Will of God is fulfilled by his Son. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." The day decreed for his Son is tagged by the number 1000. It is thus Zion is built on the sure foundation of the stone laid in Zion. "he that believeth shall not make haste."There is haste for those who have entered into the God's rest.

When Zion is built we shall hear the call,"Come up hither.'

144,000 What is this number in relation to the body: I shall give an analogy from the classic, Alice in Wonderland. The grinning cheshire cat has a body. It is thus imposter churches have got themselves a body of congregation. From the time of Constantine ! the church had grown into one great body but it shall vanish, only a grin shall remain: 144,000

Matt.22.14 "144,000" (1 of 2)

" For many are called, but few are chosen."

Apostle Peter exhorting his audience following after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit refers to the promise: " For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts.2 39) St Paul asks, "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Rom.10.18; Isa 55.11" St Paul heard it on his way to Damascus and we all heard according to earth time and places from one end of the globe to another. Is time and place of any consequence to God? No. The Spirit is giving us the truth from the POV of the Father and of the Son. None other than what Jesus declared."I am the truth. In the world of the Spirit it is thus we have 144,000 sanctified one and 144,000 martyrs who came, "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." These two groups in the blood of the Lamb are the elect. They were called and in his Son are the elect. So being first or the last does not mean a thing. These two groups are presented in v.2 . The Spirit moved upon the face of the waters. There is is another group over whom darkness reign still. (Gen.1.1-2)

The number 144,000 is a total count: the generation of Jesus Christ is the body which was being continuously fashioned. (Ps.139.15-16)On the second group where darkness hovers over, had their chance. They had no faith. "for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him./For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Jesus brought gospel of his Father made it his gospel by his death on the cross. By his resurrection God the Father established the gospel of Jesus Christ. As he was sent so sent he disciples. (Mt.28.18-20; Jn.20.21-22) The risen Christ anointing them has a different meaning than in the case of Adam.(Gen.2.7-8)

Page 3.

e) Where does Scripture teach that Jesus would have gone on to establish His kingdom on earth if the Jews would have accepted Him as their Messiah?

This question of course is tied in with your next question: f) "If (the above question) is true, where does Jesus sacrifice for sin enter into such a history? Would it have been set aside if the Jews accepted Him as their Messiah prior to the cross?

Your first question is hypothetical, as it assumes that there may not have been a need for Christ's Sacrifice for sin if He was accepted by the Jews, thus He would then remain on Earth & establish His Kingdom rule. But we know that Christ had to suffer and die, even as Paul preached in Acts 17:1-3; there was no avoiding the Cross, even for the gathering in of the Gentiles. If the Cross was absent, then could sinners (of Jews, even maybe Gentiles) even figure in such a kingdom of Christ on Earth? To me, that would be absurd. As also, if only the Jews believed on Jesus while He was on Earth, then He died, rose from the dead, & needed to return to His Father. There would still need to be a gap where the Gospel would have to reach into all the world, for all sinners needed to hear of God's great Love and be saved.

So, I'm unsure whether these were the sort of answers you were looking for - maybe something else. In any case, will leave this with you.

Page 2.

c) Where does Scripture teach that ethnic Israel will inherit eternally an earthly life and the Church will inherit a heavenly life?

I can't speak for those who might believe this, since I don't see it this way. But I understand that both believing Israel and believing Gentile will share together eternally with Jesus in His 1000 year reign ( Revelation 20:4-6), & then at some future date, in the New heavens & New Earth ( Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:12,13).

d) Where does Scripture teach that the church came into being because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah?

The Scripture that comes to mind is Acts 13:46-48, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". And Paul also shared this in Romans 11:11. I realize that these accounts speak generally of the Jews who stood against the message of the Cross; some no doubt, would have believed and brought into the Church. To Page 3.

Thanks for your speedy reply Gigi (& apologies, this comment of mine here went to the wrong post - so repeating it now), with a clarification of your position. You're right that I did not directly respond to the questions you posed at the first, but felt that I needed to state my understanding of the foundational Truths that undergird this matter of the future state of national Israel (if at all) at the coming again of Jesus into Jerusalem in that coming day.

I did fortunately save your questions (which one must do if we need to go back to specific posts), so I shall try to address them now as a 'dispensationalist', with what I shared earlier as the foundation to those questions. You asked:

a) Where does Scripture teach that we are to definitely and always keep ethnic Israel and the Church separated from each other?

I believe that I dealt with this in those earlier pages, that both the prophecies that spoke of Israel's future, the Lord Himself & at least Paul (in depth), referred to Israel as a continuing separate entity to the Church. But if you're referring to those of Israel who have turned from sin trusting in Christ for salvation, then I see them as most definitely a part of Christ's Church and should not be differentiated in any way, but as one and complete in Christ.

b) Where does Scripture teach that we are to chop up Scripture, delineating specific Scriptures as being strictly for Israel and other specific Scriptures as being strictly for the church?

Again, we aren't taught to "chop up or delineate Scriptures to apply to Israel or the Church", for the Scriptures themselves reveal the separation. Clearly in the OT, it was all about Israel. When we get to the NT, whether the Gospels or apostolic teaching, the differences and separation are still consistent; only when Paul speaks of the mystery of both believing Jew & Gentile into the one Body, do we see the Word revealed that for this group all subsequent Scripture is relevant and applies. Onto Page 2.

Just to say GiGi, my reply to you is found in your later comment to me.

Ps.102.12 "Zion"

"When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory."

In the book of Isaiah we come across the foundation being laid. " Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."(Isa.28.16) The word 'therefore' refers to the lies behind which the nation of Israel has hid, " for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:" Traditions of their fathers, the Law of Moses became lies for no other reason than their heart was not right. God knew them even before He called Abraham out.(Gen.12.1) God found a sure foundation as He prepared a body for His Son.

The substance that Psalm 139 is about the body that is called Zion. This is being continuously fashioned. The Spirit gives us a cryptic line at the end of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.Sermon of Simon Peter begins,"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." The promise refers to the Covenant in seven days and who are those whom God shall call? Is it not in his Son? Those who are created in 'our image' and after our likeness and they all heard the word. "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."(Actss 2.39-41) The same day refers to the days decreed for the Son.(Ps.2.7) Multiples of Three tells that it is a tag including from the beginning till the end time. We came across in the two witnesses mentioned in Rev.11 similarly represent those whom God called and sent to witness the testimony of Jesus Christ. Thom 3000 similarly signify the body of Christ. They are called to enter into the rest of God while God is preparing the body of Christ, which is in heaven. " And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned

Dear brother,

Either you believe in truth or you don't. Quarter truth or half truth is a lie. It is what heresies mean. Either the church was built on the foundation stone of Jesus Christ or elsewhere. "I am the truth" so you have a choice to make.

From your reply let me add: God is everywhere does not mean God is at rest in your heart. I understand you believe omnipotence and omnipresence of Almighty God. In terms of relationship you fail. My faith is to establish this personal bond so I am crucified with Christ and live by faith in his resurrected power. It is God who raised him. He who has the Son has the Father. This is how relationship works. ( 1 Jn. 2. 23)

Chris,

Hello again,

As to all the other information you gave to me, I do not wish to discuss anything else in your posts.

Also, you did not address any of my questions to Lbooth and that is what I am looking for as I have yet to receive answers that prove that those things are directly, explicitly, and plainly taught in Scripture.

I such proof exists, I truly do want dispensationalists to share these with me.

Chris,

Thank you for your detailed review for me. There is much of what you said that I agree with.

"Replacement Theology" is sort of a misnomer, as many who align with Covenant Theology (CT) rather than Dispensational Theology do not believe that the Church replaces, rather that those who believe in Christ are children of Abraham and heirs of the promises made to Him ( Gal. 3:27 (I think)), and those Gentile believers are joined with the believing Israelites as the true Israel of God, as the olive tree example states in Rom. 10, the remnant of believing Israelites are those who remain in the cultivated olive tree and believing Gentiles are grafted into this same tree which represents the true Israel of God. No where have I said that the Church "replaces" ethnic Israel. But what Paul says in Rom.9-11 clearly states that not all who are of Israel by ethnicity are of the Israel of God.

CT believes that the Church is grafted into true Israel (the remnant who believe in Jesus and the gospel) and therefore how Israel that is true believers in the New Covenant is the continuation of the true Israel of the Old Covenant (true believers such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, the prophets). Israelites in both the OT and NT who are not of faith as

Abraham are not included in the Israel of God. I think Paul is clear on this in Rom. 10-11.

As to the future of ethnic Israel that are not aligned in faith with YHWH, I am not too sure about what exactly that would come to in the future. I do not believe that any Israelite since the advent of Jesus will be saved without believing in Jesus, and only then in true belief will such Israelites, being "in Christ, the Israel of God, be re-grafted into the cultivated olive tree (the true Israel of God-namely Jesus and His body).

I do not believe that Israelites who do not believe the gospel and in Jesus will be included in the "New Jerusalem" nor the Kingdom Jesus came to establish and which will reach full consummation at His return.

Page 6.

So the question may be asked, 'if the Church (of believing Jew & Gentile) is with Christ in His Kingdom, why the need or mention of Israel?' As given earlier, the prophecies have to be fulfilled & Israel will see the fulfilment of them in those days. As well, Israel will once again be seen by all that God is true to His Word, that His people have not been forgotten and they have now joined His Church having their faith in the Messiah of God.

So believers in Replacement Theology who cannot accept this, must then also provide Scriptures to show that Israel as a nation is now removed from God's Plan, that they will not figure in the last days & in Christ's Kingdom & that only the Church (comprising of saved Jew & Gentile) is now the only focus & concern of God.

I realize that this response may not answer all your questions you gave earlier, but more importantly just to answer one of your questions, I believe that Christ still had to die for the sins of all people, even if the Jews of His day received Him and believed on Him. That death may have been wholly conducted by the Roman judicial system & determination without Jewish compelling them to do so. Blessings.

Page 5.

This belief says that He will not do what He promised to His people, or possibly He cannot do what He promised. Both of which are untrue.

To repeat Ezekiel 36:22-24: "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."

You may believe that because of Israel's sin and unfaithfulness, God has forever removed their place & position, replacing them with the Church and that God will not fulfil His promises to them as a nation. But consider what God says here: It isn't for Israel's sake, but for God's Holy Name & Honor that compels Him to fulfil His Promise to Israel & show His Power to the heathen. Therefore, all the prophecies that went before pertaining to Israel and their future, including Jesus' Own teaching on their future trials & tribulations and restoration, as well as the Apostle Paul's & what was given to John the Revelator, show that God hasn't finished with His Elect. Sure, most will die still in unbelief and be judged & punished accordingly, as with all unbelievers, but the remnant who will believe at Christ's coming will know the fulfilment of prophecies concerning Israel and together with the Church form Christ's Kingdom on Earth. To page 6.

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Then Ezekiel chap 37 shows that the nation of Israel will be gathered back into the land in a state of unbelief first of all and after that, God will give them spiritual life. These prophecies and many others are literal prophecies concerning Israel alone. The nation of Israel was dispersed amongst all the nations starting in AD 70. They were literally being re-gathered and once again became a nation again in AD 1948. Prophecies will continue to be fulfilled where Israel will continue as a nation & one day come under the New Covenant and the Kingdom that they were always promised.

Other prophecies such as Zechariah chapter 12 and 14 cannot mean anything other than Israel. And these passages, which have not been fulfilled yet, show that God is going to protect, cleanse, and install his Kingdom there.

c) RT goes against New Testament prophecy.



Prophecy such as Matt chap 24 and the Book of the Revelation show that the nation of Israel plays a key role in the end times. God has not finished with them but will fulfil his prophecies and be faithful to His Own Name & Word.

d) RT goes against the very Character of God.



Paul wrote it well in Romans 3:1-4: "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

This is a very important point: if we believe that God will not fulfil His promises to the nation of Israel; or to say, that God has taken away His promises & Israel's position and given them to another people, this must cast great doubt over both the Character and Sovereignty of God. To Page 5.

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This blindness and hardening is temporary until the appointed number of gentiles are saved. After this, God will again return to fulfil His Promises to them as a nation; even as Paul writes, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" ( Romans 11:26,27). Isaiah 59:20,21 and Jeremiah 31:31-37 are further assurances by God that what He has decreed will come to pass upon His Elect (Israel).

Even after Jesus' resurrection, the disciples still wanted to know when the kingdom would be restored to Israel ( Acts 1:6-7). Jesus COULD have told them, 'do you still not understand, God has rejected Israel because of their unbelief & rejection of Me - and only those who believe on Me will be with Me in My Kingdom'. Rather, Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." It was not a question of when this would happen but that in God's Time, it would happen when the remnant of Israel would one day see, be convicted and believe, & the kingdom would be restored, with Jesus truly as her King & Savior.

b) RT goes against Old Testament prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.

Consider the prophecies in Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37. In these passages, Ezekiel foresaw the following:

Israel's sinfulness and apostasy (36:16-18); Israel's dispersion amongst the nations (36:19-21); Israel's re-gathering back into the land of Israel (36:22-24); God's blessing of Israel under the new covenant (36:26-27); God would make his name known amongst the nations through His kindness and fulfilled promises to the nation of Israel (36:23,36). Onto Page 4.

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a) Replacement Theology (RT) goes against the NT teaching concerning this.

Paul lays it all out very clearly in Romans chaps 9 to11 (chapters you know very well). He writes of Israel's previous position as God's chosen people, their current position as those blinded and in unbelief, and as 'branches that were broken off'. But Paul certainly doesn't leave it there as though that is how it will be forever. Consider these specific references of his:

Romans 11:11-12: Did they, the nation of Israel stumble & fall beyond recovery? Not at all. Rather, because of their fall, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke Israel to envy. But if their fall meant riches for the world, and their loss meant riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will Israel's fullness (restoration) bring. This is Paul writing, not as a learned Jew but under revelation in the NT economy, where the Promises of God still await fulfilment. So Israel's current position of having stumbled isn't a fall that they won't recover from. At present, their transgression (rejection of Jesus) has led to grace now offered to the world, but Paul anticipates a time when greater riches shall flow from their fullness, when they are restored and God's promises are fulfilled for them, most likely after they shall see & know the one "they have pierced" ( Zechariah 12:8-10).

Continuing in Paul's letter, Romans 11:23 states, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again". Israel can be grafted into the Olive tree and will happen to those who believe amongst them. And lest believing gentiles should, in pride, think that Israel has been rejected forever, he wrote: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in". To Page 3.