1 Corinthians 15:41 states: There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
This last passage could possibly be in reference to those who vanish in the Rapture as well. Food for thought....
In my series of 7 postings on what is about to come to pass; I alluded to the righteous shining like the sun from Daniel. In regard to our battles with the enemy; he both accuses us of our sins and works to convince us that we aren't able to ever be in good standing with the Lord. There is danger in both extremes; thinking we are blessed when we aren't even saved; and being convinced we are still in darkness because of besetting sins. Surely we must confess and not try to hide our sins if we want to be forgiven.
This righteousness is something which is to be experienced with a servant's heart. Christ of course was the only truly righteous man who ever existed consistently throughout His earthly ministry reflecting His Divinity. It is the Body of Christ which was the focus of His ministry; his life and death. As a Christian we should seek to keep the church pure and build one another up and display the love of Christ in fellowship and communication with one another as well as when sharing the Good News with others.
Sadly; there are some I have had experience with who have displayed unedifying behavior suited for a church bought with a price.
If we are to be confined to a house church because of being unable to find a good church or persecution in the future; that will no doubt strip some of the pride that has crept into the organized church leadership up until now.
My Lord JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the END of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18...
1 Corinthians 15:24-27KJV
24 The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD, even the Father( Luke 20:35-36); when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER.
JESUS does not need to be visible here on earth or present in Person to perform the strange work as Isaiah prophesied: Isaiah 28:21-22
21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His WORK, His strange WORK; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I HAVE HEARD FROM THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS a CONSUMPTION, even determined upon the WHOLE EARTH.
Luke 21:26-27
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.(cloud?it is the same cloud of Acts 1:9-11, understand? it has nothing to do with cloud or H2O around the whole world, such a thought is/would be ridiculous. Take a look)
By the way, The NATIONS will be wrathed, but the WRATH of our GOD comes... and He should destroy them which destroy the earth.
My Lord JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the END of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18...
1 Corinthians 15:24-27KJV
24 The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD, even the Father( Luke 20:35-36); when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER.
25 For he must reign, till he hath PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER FEET.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
GET READY
Peter Apostle warned: 2Peter 3:12-14
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD (this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium),
wherein the heavens( Ephesians 1:3-8-OT and NT) being on FIRE- Isaiah 20-21 AND 19- shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1Isaiah 53:5-11Romans 4:14-15Galatians 3:18-19Hebrews 9:14-15.
2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21Hebrews 10:8-11John 1:291 Corinthians 15:31 John 3:5Psalm 32:1Romans 3:21-26Romans 8:3.
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22Isaiah 53:6Isaiah 53:11Romans 5:11Ephesians 2:16Titus 2:142 Corinthians 5:18-19.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11Romans 3:21-26Romans 5:17-212 Corinthians 5:211 Peter 2:24.
5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23Matthew 11:11-15Mark 1:14-15John 5:36-40John 6:27Acts 3:18.
6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.
The enemy of our souls has a problem (actually as sick as he is a lot of issues) but I am focusing on one in particular. He can't stand humans; in reality even those who do his bidding but is out of necessity offering many temporary pleasures to turn men away from God and in reality; of course put people into bondage. Since he can't stand God; Christ or His holiness as well as human beings the last thing he wants is to see someone be drawn to Christ's mercy and salvation through God's love. No doubt that sickens him. Some say his primary motive is to have us in hell with him. Since he hates us already having our company there isn't going to make him feel better; and of course he will be too busy suffering himself to care anyway. It may give him pleasure for now; since he misses out on such suffering until the confinement period of the Millennium is over and the final conflagration occurs; to think of men in constant agony. What he really wants as from the beginning is worship. His motive is simply overthrow of God and heaven which his demented mind still thinks can be attained; but at the same time he probably knows better since his time is short. Daniel 8:10 even seems to suggest he tramples on some of his own demonic horde when cast out of heaven in the Tribulation; likely enraged that they couldn't fight hard enough to keep his position up there any longer.
The whole Satanic mantra (Such as Aleister Crowley's "do as thou wilt") in a nutshell explains all of the enemy's tactics.
The devil only wants to serve himself. He will use his best tool music (read Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28) to delude the masses.
He doesn't rule over hell; at least after the cross as souls now go straight to heaven and not remain in the paradise under the earth. His contracts with people can't hold water with the shed blood on the cross of His atonement. 1 Corinthians 15:56; Romans 6:23). Christ conquered sin at Calvary.
Thank you, brother, After the first resurrection, their judgement and rewards, Revelation 20:4 and after the 1000 years is the day of judgment for the rest of the dead. Daniel 12:2John 5:28-292 Corinthians 5:10Revelation 20:11-15.
This is our hope, and the promise God has given to us 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, those who are not the chosen and faithful in the first resurrection sleep in death until the day of judgment for all who have lived, Revelation 20:11-15.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Death is an enemy; and verse 26 of this chapter indicates that it will eventually be eliminated. Jesus was the "first of the firstfruits" so to speak; which extends through the Rapture/Resurrection event of the righteous; through the Revelation 14:4 event of the translation of the 144,000. After this we will have the Second Coming when those that survive until that time physically will survive to repopulate the earth in the Millennial period; followed by the time the Heavenly Jerusalem comes down and God the Father dwells with men (v. 24).
It is hard to comprehend let alone understand all the mysteries of His death; burial and resurrection. It is as a grand play on stage; except that the pathos is real; and His atonement was sufficient for us all to deliver our sins as far as the east is from the west. ( Psalm 103:12). He ever lives to intercede for His people ( Hebrews 7:25). He first rose from the dead and we shall likewise. He who believes in Him will never die ( John 11:25-26) even though he dies physically in reality it is only the body that sleeps as we see about Lazarus earlier in that chapter. We have hope unlike the world for those "fallen asleep" ( 1 Thess. 4:14-18).
All of creation also is awaiting the change and groans until now ( Romans 8:23). For those who believe the last scene of this real life drama is glorious and never ending; while there is no peace for the wicked ( Isaiah 48:22; etal). Let that sink in as the world in its ignorance turns this glorious day into a mockery.
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Jesus was obedient to the Father, Jesus said many times it is not His will but the will of the Father who sent Him, the same as we are to do, John 4:34John 5:30Mark 3:35.
Do you believe that a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
First, I will have to say it was the will of the Father, Jesus at the end even asked His father if there was another way but not Jesus's will but the will of His Father, Matthew 26:39Luke 22:42. We are told this is the foundation of our faith, Jesus' sacrificial death. God cannot die God is Spirit He has no blood to shed for sin it had to be a man, His Son, born of a woman.
John 3:16 God gave His Son not Himself 1 John 2:221 John 4:32 John 1:7Romans 5:82 Corinthians 5:21, God cannot be made sin, 1 Corinthians 15:17 Jesus died, and God raised Him from the dead, the first man to live a perfect life, the first fruits of those who sleep in death. 1 Corinthians 15:14 as said if Jesus was not a man who lived a perfect life and died and was raised from the dead all is vain.
The first Adam was the first man Jesus was the last Adam and the second man, 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. The law had to be fulfilled by a man.
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
As we see Luke 2:51-52 Jesus grew up increasing in wisdom and stature in favor with God and man. Jesus was twelve years old and He knew His father was God, but it doesn't say Jesus knew then He was to be the Messiah. God also said He would raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, Deuteronomy 18:15, Isaiah 11:1-5Isaiah 61:1-2 confirmed in Luke 4:18-21. Romans 1:1-42 Timothy 2:8.
What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.
If so, when did He come into existence?
In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16Matthew 12:28Acts 10:38.
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?
I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
Part 5. J Vernon Mcgee. (Paul and James View Justification.)
Therefore, we see that when Paul uses the term justification he is talking about a man's relationship with God; when James uses the same term, he is talking about a man's relationship with the world. One is perpendicular, and the other is horizontal.
Paul and James View Faith.
The same procedure runs true in their use of the term faith. Again, they mean something different. When Paul talks of faith he is talking about that which is toward God. Paul says that saving faith - a faith that is genuine and real - will transform a person's life. Paul said of himself,
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. ( Philippians 3:7)
A real revolution took place in his life when he came to Christ. Looking again at Galatians 3:6, we read that "as Abraham believed Godit was accounted to him for righteousness." And then in Romans:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ( Romans 4:5)
Paul is speaking here of that which we bring to God. The only thing that a sinner can bring to God is faith in Jesus Christ. When James writes about this, he is not talking about faith toward God but about the works of faith. So Paul is talking about the root of faith, and James is talking about the fruit of faith, but they are both defending the citadel of faith.
Here in James 2:14.
James is not talking about the works of the Law. The faith that James is talking about here is professing faith, that which is phony and counterfeit. Paul refers to the same idea when he says in 1 Corinthians 15:2, "unless ye have believed in vain." Paul also wrote, "Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith" ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). James simply says that the faith which saves you will produce works-"works of faith.
Thank you Bennymkje for those extra comments on God's Creative Work, particularly noting you referred to the first Adam (Man) & the last Adam (the Man Christ Jesus). The first was from "the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). The first was created from the dust of the Earth, Jesus was never created from anything but was the Lord from Heaven sent to Earth in human form. Is this what you also believe?
As I said I am not the best in explaining my understanding and I will try, I feel you deserve it, for you have been gracious to even discuss this with me.
1 Corinthians 15:47 This is after Jesus was raised from the dead and Paul is saying our Lord. First the earthy the first Adam then the spiritual the last Adam Jesus who did come from heaven when Jesus, God's Son was conceived in Mary's womb.
We see in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus defeated death because He was without sin the firstborn from the dead the only man who lived a perfect life. After He was baptized and anointed God gave Him authority John 5:26-27.
Matthew 1:20Acts 17:31Rev. 12:5 My understanding is the preexistence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created. A man caused sin to enter mankind and it had to be a man to live a perfect life to fulfill and make void the law, God could not do that.
Hebrews 1:5 Jesus is not a God there is only one true God, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. a man who is God's Son conceived in Mary, who God raised in a glorified body and placed Him on His right side on His throne above all that is in heaven and earth and under the earth.
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
To Brother Ronald Whittemore & others. I'm unable to respond to Ronald's last response to me, as the Reply button is missing (probably purposely done to limit the comments in that thread). So this one comes as a new Thread to address those matters.
Page 1.
Thanks again Ronald, and I note that you would like a recess on this discussion. But if I might briefly address the Scriptures you shared & why I believe that they don't answer the question, 'was Jesus' first appearance only from the womb of Mary, or did He exist in another Form within the Person of God?'
To your references:
1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man is the Lord from Heaven" (not a Man Who became Lord, Who went into Heaven & then returned to Earth as Lord from Heaven - but the Lord Who was in Heaven & came to Earth, unlike the first man, Adam, Who was created from the Earth & back to the Earth he went).
1 Timothy 2:5: yes, Jesus is the Mediator now between God & mankind after His ascension.
Matthew 1:20, Acts 17:31, Revelation 12:5: yes again, all point to Jesus as a Man/Babe Who came from God - but no direct reference to any previous existence.
Hebrews 1:5: indeed, Jesus became the Son of God by virtue of this miraculous Birth, but then God would have created another god, because 'all the angels of God are to worship Him'; & none can receive worship but God alone. You asked, "How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father?" Because God took His Word & gave Flesh to that Word, and this Flesh was brought into the World by the Work of God, which made this One called Jesus, God's Son. Jesus only became the Son of God at the Incarnation.
Hebrews 2:7: Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" by virtue of His Humanity. It seems there is an order of created beings before God: the angels being above humanity, of which Jesus was made, thus subjecting Him to being our equal.
The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.
But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.
Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.
Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:471 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20Acts 17:31Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.
And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21:
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.
25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of the world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound( Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I hope even though you may not agree, you can make sense of my replies. I would like to tell you I do not Have anything in common with JW or their translation of the bible.
My understanding we are mortal beings and no part of us is immortal. I see the spirit as our breath/life that goes back to God when we die, Ecclesiastes 11:7 and Scripture tell us the soul can die, Ezekiel 18:4Matthew 10:28 Hebrew 9:27. Like Paul said of David being dead in the tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:34. We do not put on immortality until the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.
Bear with me my Greek is kindergarten level, arche the beginning or origin I see it maybe a little differently I understand God the Father as the Creator as in Genesis 1:1 and Psalm 19:1. I believe in the plan of God Jesus was first and as in Romans 4:17 Jesus was in Gods eyes in the womb of Mary and then the angels and all the counsel of heaven then the earth and all that was to be.
In Genesis 17:5 when God renamed Abram to Abraham God said, "for the father of many nations I have made thee". It was not Abraham will become a father of many nations it was already done in the plan of God.
"Firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead" Jesus was the firstborn, Jesus being the first in God's plan would make Him the firstborn, and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. There were people brought back from the dead like in 2 Kings 13:21 the guy was thrown into Elisha's tomb and when his body touched Elisha's bone he came back to life and stood up, and we see the ones in the New Testament. No one who died before Jesus who came back to life died again Jesus was the first to overcome death.
Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because He had no sin and death could not hold Him and when Jesus rose He rose in a glorified body never to die again, Revelation 1:18. That is what we look forward to when we are resurrected.
Thank you and I do not mind, I just sent this to S Spencer, I once believed Jesus preexisted but some things just did not feel right, 2 Cor. 11:3-4 stood out. I will do my best to give my understanding starting with Rev. 3:14. The beginning of the creation of God. God has no beginning or end, I understand this as God's plan for all creation began with Jesus, God's Son and all creation came after until all is made new, we were in this plan.
God declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10. God brought forth Jesus from His plan in the fullness of time, and Jesus's physical existence began with the miraculous virgin birth of our Lord from heaven, Ephesians 1:101 Corinthians 15:47. How this virgin conception was done by the Holy Ghost I have no clue; Jesus is the begotten Son of God if anything is begotten it has a beginning.
Jesus was the second man who came into this world without sin, Man had to live a perfect life to fulfill the law that was placed on man to make it void, Romans 3:19-20. Jesus as a man did this and paid the price that through Him is the only way to our Father John 14:6. My understanding of Jesus being the first in God's creation and everything came by Him and for Him and through Him and when Jesus completed what purpose His Father sent Him to do Jesus became heir of all that God created after Him, Hebrews 1:2. I will do my best to give my understanding although we may not agree we can see and study the other side.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
1 In the beginning GOD created the heaven(s)(the 1st, 2nd and 3rd heavens, and the heaven of the heavens) and the earth.
26 And GOD said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...
27 So GOD created man in His own image, in the image of GOD created He him; male and female created He them.
28 And GOD blessed them, ...
31 And GOD saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth Day.
Remember: GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were. JESUS came in the fouth GOD's Day or around 4000 years after Adam, and He said: John 5:17-My Father worketh hitherto, and I work (of course, it was still the 4th GOD's Day. In fact, the sixth GOD's Day (6000 years after Adam) it just finished, therefore, Now, even now, from now on, will be fulfilled LITERALLY Luke 20:35-36 combined with Philippians 3:20-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and 51-55. Take a look. The Word is GOD, self-executing/executable, understand? GET READY)
Ro.4:16-17
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even GOD, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Heb.4:3-13
3For we which have believed do enter into rest,as he said,As I have sworn in my wrath,if they shall enter into my rest:although the works were finished from the foundation of the world(as written in Genesis1)
4 For He spake in a certain place of the seventh Day on this wise, And GOD did rest the seventh Day from all His works.
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever-Re.11:15. THE NATIONS WILL BE ANGRY, but GOD's WRATH comes... Re.11:18.
Jesus lived a sinless life by always choosing to exercise faith in God, never sinning, thus He did not deserve the curse of the law; yet took the curse upon himself and trade for humanity.
How many times have unbelievers and believers alike said, it is not fair that all of humanity would pay the price of eternal damnation because of one man's choice, Adam's decision.
Yet, the righteousness of God is seen in that Humanity is saved, with the penalty of sin paid for by one man's choice, Jesus decision to take our place.
There is both quality and justice in the trade; wherein God's righteousness is maintained, while at the same time displaying mercy and grace.
This is the reason for 1 Corinthians 15:22, which states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45, which states:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The only way that God could save fallen man was by Jesus becoming our kinsman Redeemer, by both purchasing us with His blood; while at the same time killing death for the sake of His family, "humanity" (And in the second coming destroying the enemies of his people).
Jesus stated in John 5:39:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
All of God's Word has one purpose, it is the glorification of God ("Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7), and His Son Jesus Christ ( Ephesians 1:20-22; Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:12-19).
It is Jesus that deserves preeminence in God's Word.
All of these Old Testament types and shadows ( Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17) and figures (Theologically referred to as "Expositional Constancy" meant as object lessons to paint the picture of the Messiah, so that He would be recognizable when He came.
Hi Cheryl1655. The passage you read in Revelation 21:1-3 about the new heaven (sky) & new Earth and then the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, are events (including those in Revelation 22) that will take place right at the very end of earthly time as we know it. This account shows us the end of Satan & his influence on mankind, the end of sin & corruption, & the arrival of a complete renewal of God's original creation, with God in the midst. These are glorious visions which the Apostle John received from Jesus for those end times, and sadly the vision of all those who have rejected Jesus & loved to live in sin, hating the God of Heaven, these will go into punishment of everlasting fire ( Revelation 21:8).
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
Jesus didn't have a mission to complete to "become" the unblemished Lamb of God.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Isaiah 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
This last passage could possibly be in reference to those who vanish in the Rapture as well. Food for thought....
In my series of 7 postings on what is about to come to pass; I alluded to the righteous shining like the sun from Daniel. In regard to our battles with the enemy; he both accuses us of our sins and works to convince us that we aren't able to ever be in good standing with the Lord. There is danger in both extremes; thinking we are blessed when we aren't even saved; and being convinced we are still in darkness because of besetting sins. Surely we must confess and not try to hide our sins if we want to be forgiven.
This righteousness is something which is to be experienced with a servant's heart. Christ of course was the only truly righteous man who ever existed consistently throughout His earthly ministry reflecting His Divinity. It is the Body of Christ which was the focus of His ministry; his life and death. As a Christian we should seek to keep the church pure and build one another up and display the love of Christ in fellowship and communication with one another as well as when sharing the Good News with others.
Sadly; there are some I have had experience with who have displayed unedifying behavior suited for a church bought with a price.
If we are to be confined to a house church because of being unable to find a good church or persecution in the future; that will no doubt strip some of the pride that has crept into the organized church leadership up until now.
Maranatha.
1 Corinthians 15:24-27KJV
24 The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD, even the Father( Luke 20:35-36); when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER.
JESUS does not need to be visible here on earth or present in Person to perform the strange work as Isaiah prophesied: Isaiah 28:21-22
21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His WORK, His strange WORK; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I HAVE HEARD FROM THE LORD GOD OF HOSTS a CONSUMPTION, even determined upon the WHOLE EARTH.
Luke 21:26-27
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.(cloud?it is the same cloud of Acts 1:9-11, understand? it has nothing to do with cloud or H2O around the whole world, such a thought is/would be ridiculous. Take a look)
By the way, The NATIONS will be wrathed, but the WRATH of our GOD comes... and He should destroy them which destroy the earth.
GET READY
1 Corinthians 15:24-27KJV
24 The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD, even the Father( Luke 20:35-36); when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER.
25 For he must reign, till he hath PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER FEET.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
GET READY
Peter Apostle warned: 2Peter 3:12-14
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD (this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium),
wherein the heavens( Ephesians 1:3-8-OT and NT) being on FIRE- Isaiah 20-21 AND 19- shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Get ready, do what GOD recommended- Isaiah 20-21
For Your meditation,
John 14:6 kjv,
John 1:12-14,
1 Timothy 2:5,
1 Corinthians 15:1-4,
John 1:9,
Ephesians 1:7,
Romans 10:4,
John 8:32.
Hey brother just one last thing to consider.
Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1 Isaiah 53:5-11 Romans 4:14-15 Galatians 3:18-19 Hebrews 9:14-15.
2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21 Hebrews 10:8-11 John 1:29 1 Corinthians 15:3 1 John 3:5 Psalm 32:1 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 8:3.
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 2 Corinthians 5:21 1 Peter 2:24.
5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23 Matthew 11:11-15 Mark 1:14-15 John 5:36-40 John 6:27 Acts 3:18.
6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.
Jesus said it in John 19:28-30.
God bless,
RLW
The enemy of our souls has a problem (actually as sick as he is a lot of issues) but I am focusing on one in particular. He can't stand humans; in reality even those who do his bidding but is out of necessity offering many temporary pleasures to turn men away from God and in reality; of course put people into bondage. Since he can't stand God; Christ or His holiness as well as human beings the last thing he wants is to see someone be drawn to Christ's mercy and salvation through God's love. No doubt that sickens him. Some say his primary motive is to have us in hell with him. Since he hates us already having our company there isn't going to make him feel better; and of course he will be too busy suffering himself to care anyway. It may give him pleasure for now; since he misses out on such suffering until the confinement period of the Millennium is over and the final conflagration occurs; to think of men in constant agony. What he really wants as from the beginning is worship. His motive is simply overthrow of God and heaven which his demented mind still thinks can be attained; but at the same time he probably knows better since his time is short. Daniel 8:10 even seems to suggest he tramples on some of his own demonic horde when cast out of heaven in the Tribulation; likely enraged that they couldn't fight hard enough to keep his position up there any longer.
The whole Satanic mantra (Such as Aleister Crowley's "do as thou wilt") in a nutshell explains all of the enemy's tactics.
The devil only wants to serve himself. He will use his best tool music (read Isaiah 14 or Ezekiel 28) to delude the masses.
He doesn't rule over hell; at least after the cross as souls now go straight to heaven and not remain in the paradise under the earth. His contracts with people can't hold water with the shed blood on the cross of His atonement. 1 Corinthians 15:56; Romans 6:23). Christ conquered sin at Calvary.
Thank you, brother, After the first resurrection, their judgement and rewards, Revelation 20:4 and after the 1000 years is the day of judgment for the rest of the dead. Daniel 12:2 John 5:28-29 2 Corinthians 5:10 Revelation 20:11-15.
This is our hope, and the promise God has given to us 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, those who are not the chosen and faithful in the first resurrection sleep in death until the day of judgment for all who have lived, Revelation 20:11-15.
God bless,
RLW
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so "IN CHRIST" shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"
What an marvelous saying!!
The key is being "in Christ"
This is the baptism he came to perform on all those who accepts him as savior! ( Jews and Gentiles alike)
This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12:13. "unto the Jews first and then to the Gentiles"
This is what John the Baptist is saying to the Jews when preparing the way for their Messiah.
THE RESURRECTION.
The belief in the resurrection of the body is an vital aspect of our faith as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:17-20
Also the resurrection promotes a "New birth" taken place!
This is where the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead quickens our mortal bodies as mentioned in Romans 8:11-14.
So, we are baptized into Jesus death as mentioned in Romans 6:3.
Romans 6:4-11 gives us our present state by the power of the Holyspirit.
Verse 11 says we are to reckon "or to recognize" ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We have been given an earnest of the Holyspirit to will and perform inside us!
So, We have been given the earnest of the Spirit,
Sealed and predestinated, with a promise of redemption for the purchased possession. "by the blood of Christ."
This is what the resurrection means to us.
God bless.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Death is an enemy; and verse 26 of this chapter indicates that it will eventually be eliminated. Jesus was the "first of the firstfruits" so to speak; which extends through the Rapture/Resurrection event of the righteous; through the Revelation 14:4 event of the translation of the 144,000. After this we will have the Second Coming when those that survive until that time physically will survive to repopulate the earth in the Millennial period; followed by the time the Heavenly Jerusalem comes down and God the Father dwells with men (v. 24).
It is hard to comprehend let alone understand all the mysteries of His death; burial and resurrection. It is as a grand play on stage; except that the pathos is real; and His atonement was sufficient for us all to deliver our sins as far as the east is from the west. ( Psalm 103:12). He ever lives to intercede for His people ( Hebrews 7:25). He first rose from the dead and we shall likewise. He who believes in Him will never die ( John 11:25-26) even though he dies physically in reality it is only the body that sleeps as we see about Lazarus earlier in that chapter. We have hope unlike the world for those "fallen asleep" ( 1 Thess. 4:14-18).
All of creation also is awaiting the change and groans until now ( Romans 8:23). For those who believe the last scene of this real life drama is glorious and never ending; while there is no peace for the wicked ( Isaiah 48:22; etal). Let that sink in as the world in its ignorance turns this glorious day into a mockery.
Maranatha. Lord come soon!
Agape.
Part 4 Trinity discussion.
Do you believe that the will of the Father and the will of the Son are always the same or different?
Jesus was obedient to the Father, Jesus said many times it is not His will but the will of the Father who sent Him, the same as we are to do, John 4:34 John 5:30 Mark 3:35.
Do you believe that a human being can truly save all men from sin and death by a perfect life in their own will?
First, I will have to say it was the will of the Father, Jesus at the end even asked His father if there was another way but not Jesus's will but the will of His Father, Matthew 26:39 Luke 22:42. We are told this is the foundation of our faith, Jesus' sacrificial death. God cannot die God is Spirit He has no blood to shed for sin it had to be a man, His Son, born of a woman.
John 3:16 God gave His Son not Himself 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 1:7 Romans 5:8 2 Corinthians 5:21, God cannot be made sin, 1 Corinthians 15:17 Jesus died, and God raised Him from the dead, the first man to live a perfect life, the first fruits of those who sleep in death. 1 Corinthians 15:14 as said if Jesus was not a man who lived a perfect life and died and was raised from the dead all is vain.
The first Adam was the first man Jesus was the last Adam and the second man, 1 Corinthians 15:45-47. 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. The law had to be fulfilled by a man.
How would a human being know that they are the Messiah from birth and thus know not to ever sin?
As we see Luke 2:51-52 Jesus grew up increasing in wisdom and stature in favor with God and man. Jesus was twelve years old and He knew His father was God, but it doesn't say Jesus knew then He was to be the Messiah. God also said He would raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, Deuteronomy 18:15, Isaiah 11:1-5 Isaiah 61:1-2 confirmed in Luke 4:18-21. Romans 1:1-4 2 Timothy 2:8.
See part 5
Part 3 Trinity discussion,
Do you believe the Son is a created being?
What is the meaning of created? Does it mean something that is made out of nothing? I would have to say no, Jesus is the Son of God who was conceived in the womb of Mary, Matthew 1:20 Luke 1:35, I do not think I would say He was created.
If so, when did He come into existence?
In God's plan before anything and physically when He was conceived in Mary's womb.
Do you believe that the Son is only human in nature?
Jesus is the Son of God fully human but without sin same as the first Adam, Scripture is clear when Jesus was baptized, He was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit without measure, John 3:34. All the works of Jesus were done by the Spirit of God, Matthew 4:16 Matthew 12:28 Acts 10:38.
Do you believe that Jesus became "the Christ" during His lifetime (Adoptionism)?
I had never heard of Adoptionism until now, I had to look it up, it's false. Christ and Messiah are the same; Jesus was anointed by the Spirit of God after He was baptized by John, He then was made the Messiah/Christ fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel 9:25. Jesus is the Son of God conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Ghost/Spirit.
Do you believe Jesus ever aquired a divine nature in His earthly life?
If you mean a divine nature is to have all the attributes that make God who He is I would have to say no. If so, Jesus could not sin or be tempted, Matthew 4:1 Hebrews 4:15. If so, Jesus living a perfect life without sin is meaningless. Jesus could not have died; Jesus was given the power of the Holy Spirit when He was anointed the Messiah. After He rose from the dead God gave Jesus all power in heaven and on earth, Matthew 28:18. God raised and placed Jesus on His right side, Ephesians 1:21-23. Jesus did not return to where He was before, God the Father placed everything under Jesus God's only begotten Son's feet and Jesus will reign until the last enemy is destroyed, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.
See part 4.
Part 5. J Vernon Mcgee. (Paul and James View Justification.)
Therefore, we see that when Paul uses the term justification he is talking about a man's relationship with God; when James uses the same term, he is talking about a man's relationship with the world. One is perpendicular, and the other is horizontal.
Paul and James View Faith.
The same procedure runs true in their use of the term faith. Again, they mean something different. When Paul talks of faith he is talking about that which is toward God. Paul says that saving faith - a faith that is genuine and real - will transform a person's life. Paul said of himself,
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. ( Philippians 3:7)
A real revolution took place in his life when he came to Christ. Looking again at Galatians 3:6, we read that "as Abraham believed Godit was accounted to him for righteousness." And then in Romans:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ( Romans 4:5)
Paul is speaking here of that which we bring to God. The only thing that a sinner can bring to God is faith in Jesus Christ. When James writes about this, he is not talking about faith toward God but about the works of faith. So Paul is talking about the root of faith, and James is talking about the fruit of faith, but they are both defending the citadel of faith.
Here in James 2:14.
James is not talking about the works of the Law. The faith that James is talking about here is professing faith, that which is phony and counterfeit. Paul refers to the same idea when he says in 1 Corinthians 15:2, "unless ye have believed in vain." Paul also wrote, "Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith" ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). James simply says that the faith which saves you will produce works-"works of faith.
See Part 6. Paul and James View Faith.
Part one,
As I said I am not the best in explaining my understanding and I will try, I feel you deserve it, for you have been gracious to even discuss this with me.
1 Corinthians 15:47 This is after Jesus was raised from the dead and Paul is saying our Lord. First the earthy the first Adam then the spiritual the last Adam Jesus who did come from heaven when Jesus, God's Son was conceived in Mary's womb.
We see in Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Jesus defeated death because He was without sin the firstborn from the dead the only man who lived a perfect life. After He was baptized and anointed God gave Him authority John 5:26-27.
Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5 My understanding is the preexistence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created. A man caused sin to enter mankind and it had to be a man to live a perfect life to fulfill and make void the law, God could not do that.
Hebrews 1:5 Jesus is not a God there is only one true God, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. a man who is God's Son conceived in Mary, who God raised in a glorified body and placed Him on His right side on His throne above all that is in heaven and earth and under the earth.
See part two.
Part two,
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
Love you brother and God bless.
RLW
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
Page 1.
Thanks again Ronald, and I note that you would like a recess on this discussion. But if I might briefly address the Scriptures you shared & why I believe that they don't answer the question, 'was Jesus' first appearance only from the womb of Mary, or did He exist in another Form within the Person of God?'
To your references:
1 Corinthians 15:47: "the second man is the Lord from Heaven" (not a Man Who became Lord, Who went into Heaven & then returned to Earth as Lord from Heaven - but the Lord Who was in Heaven & came to Earth, unlike the first man, Adam, Who was created from the Earth & back to the Earth he went).
1 Timothy 2:5: yes, Jesus is the Mediator now between God & mankind after His ascension.
Matthew 1:20, Acts 17:31, Revelation 12:5: yes again, all point to Jesus as a Man/Babe Who came from God - but no direct reference to any previous existence.
Hebrews 1:5: indeed, Jesus became the Son of God by virtue of this miraculous Birth, but then God would have created another god, because 'all the angels of God are to worship Him'; & none can receive worship but God alone. You asked, "How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father?" Because God took His Word & gave Flesh to that Word, and this Flesh was brought into the World by the Work of God, which made this One called Jesus, God's Son. Jesus only became the Son of God at the Incarnation.
Hebrews 2:7: Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" by virtue of His Humanity. It seems there is an order of created beings before God: the angels being above humanity, of which Jesus was made, thus subjecting Him to being our equal.
Onto Page 2.
The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.
But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.
Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.
Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:47 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
God bless,
RLW
What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.
And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21:
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.
25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of the world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump ( 1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound( Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Part 3
I hope even though you may not agree, you can make sense of my replies. I would like to tell you I do not Have anything in common with JW or their translation of the bible.
My understanding we are mortal beings and no part of us is immortal. I see the spirit as our breath/life that goes back to God when we die, Ecclesiastes 11:7 and Scripture tell us the soul can die, Ezekiel 18:4 Matthew 10:28 Hebrew 9:27. Like Paul said of David being dead in the tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:34. We do not put on immortality until the resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54.
Bear with me my Greek is kindergarten level, arche the beginning or origin I see it maybe a little differently I understand God the Father as the Creator as in Genesis 1:1 and Psalm 19:1. I believe in the plan of God Jesus was first and as in Romans 4:17 Jesus was in Gods eyes in the womb of Mary and then the angels and all the counsel of heaven then the earth and all that was to be.
In Genesis 17:5 when God renamed Abram to Abraham God said, "for the father of many nations I have made thee". It was not Abraham will become a father of many nations it was already done in the plan of God.
"Firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead" Jesus was the firstborn, Jesus being the first in God's plan would make Him the firstborn, and Jesus is the firstborn of the dead. There were people brought back from the dead like in 2 Kings 13:21 the guy was thrown into Elisha's tomb and when his body touched Elisha's bone he came back to life and stood up, and we see the ones in the New Testament. No one who died before Jesus who came back to life died again Jesus was the first to overcome death.
Jesus is the firstborn of the dead because He had no sin and death could not hold Him and when Jesus rose He rose in a glorified body never to die again, Revelation 1:18. That is what we look forward to when we are resurrected.
See part 4 sorry I am slow.
Part 1
Thank you and I do not mind, I just sent this to S Spencer, I once believed Jesus preexisted but some things just did not feel right, 2 Cor. 11:3-4 stood out. I will do my best to give my understanding starting with Rev. 3:14. The beginning of the creation of God. God has no beginning or end, I understand this as God's plan for all creation began with Jesus, God's Son and all creation came after until all is made new, we were in this plan.
God declared the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10. God brought forth Jesus from His plan in the fullness of time, and Jesus's physical existence began with the miraculous virgin birth of our Lord from heaven, Ephesians 1:10 1 Corinthians 15:47. How this virgin conception was done by the Holy Ghost I have no clue; Jesus is the begotten Son of God if anything is begotten it has a beginning.
Jesus was the second man who came into this world without sin, Man had to live a perfect life to fulfill the law that was placed on man to make it void, Romans 3:19-20. Jesus as a man did this and paid the price that through Him is the only way to our Father John 14:6. My understanding of Jesus being the first in God's creation and everything came by Him and for Him and through Him and when Jesus completed what purpose His Father sent Him to do Jesus became heir of all that God created after Him, Hebrews 1:2. I will do my best to give my understanding although we may not agree we can see and study the other side.
See part 2.
God bless,
RLW
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
1 In the beginning GOD created the heaven(s)(the 1st, 2nd and 3rd heavens, and the heaven of the heavens) and the earth.
26 And GOD said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...
27 So GOD created man in His own image, in the image of GOD created He him; male and female created He them.
28 And GOD blessed them, ...
31 And GOD saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth Day.
Remember: GOD calleth those things which be not as though they were. JESUS came in the fouth GOD's Day or around 4000 years after Adam, and He said: John 5:17-My Father worketh hitherto, and I work (of course, it was still the 4th GOD's Day. In fact, the sixth GOD's Day (6000 years after Adam) it just finished, therefore, Now, even now, from now on, will be fulfilled LITERALLY Luke 20:35-36 combined with Philippians 3:20-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and 51-55. Take a look. The Word is GOD, self-executing/executable, understand? GET READY)
Ro.4:16-17
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even GOD, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Heb.4:3-13
3For we which have believed do enter into rest,as he said,As I have sworn in my wrath,if they shall enter into my rest:although the works were finished from the foundation of the world(as written in Genesis1)
4 For He spake in a certain place of the seventh Day on this wise, And GOD did rest the seventh Day from all His works.
The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever-Re.11:15. THE NATIONS WILL BE ANGRY, but GOD's WRATH comes... Re.11:18.
Part 9.
His Role
Jesus lived a sinless life by always choosing to exercise faith in God, never sinning, thus He did not deserve the curse of the law; yet took the curse upon himself and trade for humanity.
How many times have unbelievers and believers alike said, it is not fair that all of humanity would pay the price of eternal damnation because of one man's choice, Adam's decision.
Yet, the righteousness of God is seen in that Humanity is saved, with the penalty of sin paid for by one man's choice, Jesus decision to take our place.
There is both quality and justice in the trade; wherein God's righteousness is maintained, while at the same time displaying mercy and grace.
This is the reason for 1 Corinthians 15:22, which states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45, which states:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The only way that God could save fallen man was by Jesus becoming our kinsman Redeemer, by both purchasing us with His blood; while at the same time killing death for the sake of His family, "humanity" (And in the second coming destroying the enemies of his people).
Jesus stated in John 5:39:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
All of God's Word has one purpose, it is the glorification of God ("Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7), and His Son Jesus Christ ( Ephesians 1:20-22; Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:12-19).
It is Jesus that deserves preeminence in God's Word.
All of these Old Testament types and shadows ( Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17) and figures (Theologically referred to as "Expositional Constancy" meant as object lessons to paint the picture of the Messiah, so that He would be recognizable when He came.
See Pt 10
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
Jesus took on the sins of the whole world. (THAT MEANS MADE AVAILABLE)
When we are born again "BORN OF GOD'S SPIRIT" We are saved!
We can no longer be charged with sin. 1 John 3:9.
The Holyspirit quicken these mortal bodies so we no longer "SERVE" sin. Romans 8:9-14.
There is no way for a child of Adam to be saved apart from being born from above. He was born with an inherited sin nature.
Unlike Jesus, we have to be born "Again" JESUS NEVER HAD TO DO THAT!
He was conceived of the Holyspirit. Matthew 1:20.
The penalty of sin was Judged/condemned/sentenced in the flesh. (In other words it was sin that was on trial, Not Jesus!
I believe that's what that phrase means. (Condemned sin in the flesh)
The meaning is separate from Jesus taking our judgment on the cross.
There is one event but two trials taken place here.
1) Our sins being Judged.
2) The penalty of sin, which is Death.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:49-57.
God bless.
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
Sorry for the typos, it should be Hosea 11:9 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
RLW