Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1Isaiah 53:5-11Romans 4:14-15Galatians 3:18-19Hebrews 9:14-15.
2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21Hebrews 10:8-11John 1:291 Corinthians 15:31 John 3:5Psalm 32:1Romans 3:21-26Romans 8:3.
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22Isaiah 53:6Isaiah 53:11Romans 5:11Ephesians 2:16Titus 2:142 Corinthians 5:18-19.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11Romans 3:21-26Romans 5:17-212 Corinthians 5:211 Peter 2:24.
5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23Matthew 11:11-15Mark 1:14-15John 5:36-40John 6:27Acts 3:18.
6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.
Having Christ's righteousness imputed to us does not mean we automatically do what is right-that will come through the process of sanctification. What it does mean is that we are positionally righteous; even though we still sin, we are legally righteous. God has credited the righteousness of Christ to our account, and He did this when He saved us. In grace, the holiness of Jesus Christ is ascribed to us. Christ "has become for us wisdom from God, that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption"
1 Corinthians 1:30.
1John 5:13 reads"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Here's an helpful article.
If a person knows Christ and is growing in grace, he or she will be generally marked by the following traits:
1. The believer enjoys fellowship with Christ and His redeemed people. 1 John 1:3.
2. The believer walks in the light, not in the darkness. 1 John 1:6-7.
3. The believer admits and confesses his sin. 1 John 1:8.
4. The believer obeys God's Word. 1 John 2:3-5.
5. The believer loves God rather than the world. 1 John 2:15.
6. The believer's life is characterized by "doing what is right" 1 John 2:29.
7. The believer seeks to maintain a pure life. 1 John 3:3.
8. The believer sees a decreasing pattern of sin in his life. 1 John 3:5-6.
1 John 5:18.
9. The believer demonstrates love for other Christians ( 1 John 3:14).
10. The believer "walks the walk," versus just "talking the talk" 1 John 3:18-19.
11. The believer maintains a clear conscience. 1 John 3:21.
12. The believer experiences victory in his Christian walk 1 John 5:4.
Number 8 in the list above is that the believer will evince a decreasing pattern of sin in his or her life.
No one who belongs to Christ continue to "Practice" sin as a way of life.
A new life is initiated by a new birth and we find that when we accept Christ as our Lord and savior.
The dawning of spring is a vivid reminder of Christian truths about new birth, new beginnings, and resurrection.
Jesus said,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
( John 3:3).
Our life is fruitless without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
When we come to faith in Jesus, the Spirit of God comes to live in us, sealing us as God's own adopted children, guaranteeing us a future inheritance ( Rom. 8:16; Gal. 4:4-7; Eph. 1:13-14; Titus 3:4-7).
He also gives us the power to do the good works that pleases God and produce fruit.
Have you been born again by placing your faith in Christ alone? Do you love God? Have His peace in your heart? Love His people? Hunger and thirst for righteousness? Desire to serve Him and share the life-changing news of the gospel with others? These are just a few signs that you may have been born twice! One physically, one spiritually.
While we are thankful for the new, secure birth in Christ, we should also be thankful for the new beginnings.
Even though we are children of God, we still strugglewithsin, and when we do, we do not need to get saved all over again, we are His children forever.
However, because of our sins, our relationship isn't where it should be and we need to be reconciled to Him, having our sins forgiven so that our fellowship, "that oneness can be restored.
Our relationship with Him is restored when, in prayer, we confess our sins to Him. 1 John 1:9.
As S Spencer said, this is an interesting question, just some last thoughts and whether or not we have enough Scripture to know the complete answer. Scripture is relatively silent about the eternal past, even in the New Testament, where the clearest and fullest light of God's revelation shines. Very few passages reach backward in their scope further than the foundation of the world at the beginning of the ages of our time. God's plan was before the foundation of this earth was laid.
God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all, 1 John 1:5, and we know from Job 38 that the angels and the principalities and powers in heaven were created before Genesis 1. A thought, God created darkness as a place to put the earth outside of the third heaven, the earth was without form and void, this would be empty of all life and covered in surging water of chaos enclosed in total darkness that God's Spirit moved upon and God said let there be light, God called light out of darkness His light moved into the space of darkness.
God called out of this darkness everything there is below the third heaven and the time we live in. My understanding is different on Lucifer in Isaiah 14, and something happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 but that may be for other discussions.
Thank you for these questions, they inspire study.
The superscription is the Latin phrase for the Savior of the World and while we study the last supper let us keep this aspect of the Son in our mind. Each gospel has something to tell us about the significance of it.
"And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;/ For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."(26:27-28) Luke also treats the same. He does it after he blesses the cup. which is by offering it to his Father. "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves." Divide it among yourselves is similar to the act of the Sower in the Parable. "Behold, a sower went forth to sow;" The field is the world where the heart is not alike. In vv.4-6 we read how the seed come to nought or produced very little. the fault lay entirely with the heart of man. "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."( 1 John 1:7-9). Blood of Jesus is not at fault but the heart of man is. Out of it comes heresies since it is not entirely good. Like the proverbial curates egg it is half half. So some of the time man runs with his brethren and claims."I have seen the light Hallelujiah" and at other time he is chasing with politicians to do their bidding. Limited salvation as some sects claim is a case in point. If they stumble at this what else is there for them? "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."(Jas.2:10)
Notice it is "after supper" that he said " Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." As with the bread they have had partaken the bread during the Last supper "this do in remembrance of me."( Luke 22:19-20). If one makes 'this cup' to mean his blood, what are we to assume? Man's reason is at fault.
Hi BillyRay. Proverbs 6:17 will answer your first question; with verses 16-19 describing the 'seven things that are an abomination to God'. I can't think of a specific verse to answer your second question, though James 2:10 comes to mind: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
As with anything that comes into our minds, whether to lie, lust or whatever, when we it begins to take hold, to affect our minds & consciences, we must deal with it speedily, in the power of the Spirit lest it becomes sin & we offend our Heavenly Father. Yet, there is forgiveness if we earnestly repent of it & seek to cast it aside ( 1 John 1:9).
BoeCole, Keep standing in the gap for your entire family. I'm agreeing in prayer with you on behalf of your family. The Lord is full of mercy. It's not His will that any should perish, no, not one.
1 John 1:10 says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Someone claiming they haven't sinned is a sin; it's calling God a liar.
Either way, people sin, including you. No one in this forum believes you haven't sinned in your life. We should strive to be perfect and try very hard to avoid sin as Jesus challenged us to do, and that's awesome if we can make it through a day without any knowledge of wrongdoing. But we have a sinful nature and with God's rules it's extremely easy to sin. And I think we might sin and not even be aware of it.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28 KJV
I believe this means the same to a man or woman. Have you never once in your life looked at someone with lust? Never coveted? Never lied even in the smallest way? Never gluttony- overeating or not taking care your body? Always 100% respected God's holy temple? Anger? Loving others? Can anyone go an entire week or month without doing one of these?
Do you believe you've been perfect your whole life like Jesus, or do you just mean that since being a Christian you aren't aware of any recent sin?
My comment is intended to be helpful to you. I think I would do you a disservice to not challenge your assumption. God bless
"And behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."
The Spirit uses the expression, "behold" which is not solely addressed to the natural ear but also to the ear of faith. This is the significance of the bright cloud,- they have heard and woe to ye if you pretend not to hear it. The scribes and Pharisees were good at this hypocrisy, "Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:/All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."(23:2) Similarly whosoever speaks of justification and have no faith in works he is a liar. "f we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." ( 1 John 1:10). His word is not in them is what Apostle John says to them. God witnessed 'Hear ye him" and the cloud of witnesses representing the world of the Spirit is in each of us witnesses the truth. Hypocrisy of the Evangelicalism is to deny the works. "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."(John6:29)
Elisha would thus know beforehand the plan of King of Syria, and as the servant tells, "None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber." (2 Ki.6:12). This is precisely what Jesus meant, "Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."( Luke 12:3). Psalmist David calls the cloud of witnesses as the great congregation. (Ps.40:9) This is the reason that I spare not myself to reveal what the Spirit has instructed me, despite of my age and infirmities because this shall be read and become the mainstream as and when God shall decide. So patience and faith makes my labour of love as for His glory. Amen
It troubles me to hear someone say they have been made perfect and they no longer "commit" sin when the Holy spirit convicts us of sin. The holyspirit also guides us to truth.
In 1 John 1 John is writing to believers. John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10.
John is writing to believers!!
There is not much more to said to a person if the Holy spirit isn't convicting and guiding them to this truth.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The people in these verses are those who refuse to believe they are sinners in the first place, scoffers who don't believe in sin, don't think they need salvation because they don't believe they are sinners.
When Paul was writing this letter he expected the Roman church to read it from beginning to end, as a letter would be read, and to understand that, although the law needs to exist to show us what sin is, and that we can be tempted to break these laws and sin when we are tempted of satan, that as christians, God expected the church to live sinless because God forbade them to believe they could sin under Grace.
For those who may wish to respond to this discussion, I welcome the replies, however, please discuss the sinning/christian doctrine with scriptures and Godly common sense. Please show me where I am wrong with the scriptures I have used by telling me why the interpretation I have given is incorrect. Not simply by your opinion, but by other scriptures. What God says not man. God Bless :)
1 John 1:8 states "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Such a passage should be enough to convince someone of the fact that there will always be the potential to sin. The first thing we should point out here is that even without any outer manifestations of sin man has a sin nature. I believe it is scriptural to say that at the point of salvation we are as Galatians 2:20 states "crucified with Christ". If we are truly saved we can theoretically continue after the time of our salvation to live without sinning but the pattern of living in sin is still deep in our minds. That nature therefore must meet resistance and a believer is therefore sensing that he is "grieving the Spirit" ( Eph. 4:30-31). These verses show one is sealed indeed until redemption (by death or rapture); but that we can still do things displeasing to God.
Another thing is the use of the word perfect. Matthew 5:48 shows how Christ commanded on the Sermon of the Mount to be perfect. This was in reference to agape love; that is loving your enemies as well as your friends; in other words the opposite of hypocrisy of the Pharisees in particular. I would agree that we are called to live out our lives in total submission to the Spirit which we all fail on but we are starting to be progressively sanctified as believers. We must be cautious also not to assume our legalism is attaining any righteousness; however. Loving our brother is stated in 1 John as an imperative as well; if we show disdain because of any sin in their lives in the flesh we are sinning ourselves.
Furthermore; we have the verse in Genesis where it states that Noah was "perfect in his generations." ( Gen. 6:9). This does refer to he being the only true worshipper of God (and probably his family) as opposed to those who missed the boat; but in context it likely is not biologically corrupted as the offspring of the Nephilim which was likely everyone else who missed the ark.
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.
Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.
If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.
The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.
Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?
I have followed you and others on this great discussion!
Thanks for giving your understanding.
You stated the "beginning" in John 1:1-10 refers to Christ earthly ministry.
I believe we should ask ourselves "What was Christ role in those 3 years?
We know that Jesus's death brought in the new covenant that was Prophesied to come in the OT, ( Jeremiah 31:31) "also other verses". but what was his ministry or Role during those 3 years?
During Jesus 3-year ministry he sought out the ( lost sheep of Israel ).
John is identifying Jesus as "the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And as the "true Light, which lighteth (every man) that cometh into the world". Here John is not talking about Jesus earthly ministry, the lost sheep of Israel or his role.
JESUS ROLE AND THE ENDING OF THE OLD COVENANT IS ANOTHER TOPIC, BUT I BELIEVE THE 3 YEAR MINISTRY WAS ENDING THE OLD COVENANT AND HIS DEATH WAS THE BEGINING OF THE NEW COVENANT.
Jesus as savior was announced in Genesis 3:15.
In John 5:39 Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's ministry as savior was performed in the Old Testament in types, JOHN IS NOT ADDRESSING THE BEGINNING OF NEITHER OF THOSE.
I would like to highlight something in John 1:1-10.
We see Jesus as the word, as God, as life, as light and as the "creator in verse 10",
Jesus is called the light, and that light didn't begin at Christ earthly ministry according to verse 9
This light is also mentioned in 1 John 1:1-7. God is also referenced as that light!
We see the Trinity in the light as the Father and the light as the Son as the same in these passages.
You have the father the son and the Holy Spirit exhibited in John 1:1-10 and 1 John 1:1-7.
I was sorry to read Momsage, about your suffering, in dealing with a disability & severe exhaustion, and this can indeed make one lethargic (the spirit being willing, though the flesh weak) in doing what we would earnestly like to get done. But you have found some relief now & hopefully by just resting your spirit & body in the Lord & in His Word, you will gain precious ongoing refreshment from His Spirit.
This Docetic position stems from a belief that 'Deity cannot unite with flesh', but it doesn't mean that Scriptures aren't used to prove their belief, but with that foundation, their mental capabilities are engaged to re-visit Scriptures with alternative viewpoints. But there would be those who have from young age been taught that the incarnation is impossible (as you would know how RCs are indoctrinated from an early age in other matters, viz. Mary, saints, indulgences, penances, the Mass, etc.); or others by their own research from books, the Web, etc., where they can find a 'better' logic to this mystery, than just accepting what the Word states.
Thus we have the apostolic epistles, which essentially are pastoral letters directed to Churches for teaching, encouragement, dealing with problems/matters arising, & refuting the teaching of others that were contrary to what they had been taught. I always go back to 1 John in this 'docetic' regard, as Gnosticsm was rife then & John had to deal with it (see 1 John 1:1,2; 1 John 2:18 (the anti-Christ spirit, cf 1 John 4:2,3); 1 John 2:22,23). GBU.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
John 1:1 I see John's prolog as the beginning of Jesus ministry, not the Genesis creation, we see this in 1 John 1:1-3 seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers. John says they heard, they saw, they touched this Word of life. and this word was manifested, Jesus being the tabernacle of God with us on earth.
I will stop for now and study over what you have posted. I do thank you Chris so much for the time and effort you put in this, and I will go over it.
In the Abstract we have God blessing His creation. (Ge.1:20-22) In the light of the above here we have St Peter making a distinction as to what kosher is and what is not.
"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat./ But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."(Ac.10:13-14) In the vision of Simon Peter at Joppa, his Jewish mindset proved daunting. So the voice came second time and third time. But the voice made the point:' What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.' The Spirit is specific and the number Three, -a command number mentioned above is for instruction: the Son has cleansed with his blood such ceremonial defilement stipulated in the Law of Moses. ( 1 John 1:7)
Jesus during his earthly ministry pointed where defilement could occur:"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man./For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:/These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.(Matt.15:18-20).
In this context to the pure everything is pure. (Ti.1:15). This purity is not imposed from outside by sheer will but in being at rest, letting Jesus who lives in the believer at rest too, so whatever he does is for the glory of God. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Pe.4:11)
I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a young Pastor last week. In it; he was lamenting an individual who claimed that Christ died for him (or her). This was because the evidence of it through this person's behavior would indicate otherwise. It is indeed true and necessary that we all have a personal understanding and experience in regard to salvific faith and repentance granted in regard to being one of God's elect if indeed we are saved. Clearly "accepting" Christ as Lord isn't really doing anything beyond what demons do and shudder ( James 2:19). Confession with the mouth and belief in the heart must coexist ( Romans 10:9-10); it is more than just a verbal declaration of facts. Nonetheless there should be some understanding of the atonement; as well as evidence that the heart has been changed with the spirit convicting of sin; righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8). As the Lord states "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" ( Matt. 12:34 and other related verses in New and Old Testament). What John 3:16 is indicating is a state of belief; not merely a one time thing (as translated correctly). Enduring to the end shows that it isn't our own strength which brings about this result; since we all struggle with sin as long as we live ( 1 John 1:8). Nonetheless we have the capacity to live a life of Holiness; since greater is He within us than he who is in the world ( 1 John 4:4).
There are variations of strengths and weaknesses that we all have; some are steeped in doctrines but rather cold in affection towards God; others seem to be caught up in experiences at the expense of wisdom from the Word; and often they seem to have little grasp of repentance or deem it not worthy in very much discussion. There is ample substance in the Word for the Spirit to enlighten us; and any personal vision or dream must be subject to the Word; if in variance then it must be discarded.
This is a difficult subject to discuss openly. Being one is to be united in the holy love of God. The way we can do this is to become one with His Son, Jesus Christ the only way to the Father, John 14:6. When a man and woman are married, they become one as we through faith become one in Jesus. When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist Jesus was filled without measure with the Holy Ghost/Spirit, God's Spirit, John 3:34.
God was manifested in Jesus, John 14:101 Tim. 3:10. Jesus was the Tabernacle of God, John 10:38. Jesus and the Father are one John 10:30 and Jesus told us we can be one as He and the Father are one, John 17:20-23. Jesus did nothing on His own, only the will of the Father, Jesus was obedient to the Father, Rom. 5:19 and as you said, Jesus was sent by the Father, John 5:30. The doctrine Jesus laid out was not His doctrine but His who sent Him, the Father, John 7:16.
All things are delivered unto Jesus of the Father, Matt. 11:27 and all in heaven and earth is under Jesus's feet, 1 Cor. 15:27 and will be until the last enemy is under His feet, that is death, Rev. 20:14. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, John 14:28. Scripture says Jesus has a God, 2 Cor. 11:3 1 Eph. 1:3Eph. 1:17Col 1:3 Jesus said He had a God John 20:17.
In the garden, Jesus prayed to the Father that the cup He was about to partake could pass if there was another way, but said not His will but the Father's will, Matt. 26:39. All the introductions, greetings, and blessings in the Scriptures in the New Testament that are given to the followers of Christ and called to be saints from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, two not three.
Rom. 1:7-81 Cor. 1:3-41 John 1:32 John 1:32 Cor. 1:2-3Gal. 1:3-4Eph. 1:2-3Phil. 1:2Col. 1:2-3 2 Thess.1:2 1 Tim.1:2 2 Tim.1:2 Titus 1:4Philemon 1:32 Pet. 1:2.
You must study the Scriptures letting the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God guide you to your understanding, not from my reply, or man.
( Rom. 3:10)"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
( Rom. 3:23)"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
It is because of that FAITH that leads me in to a life of OBEDIENCE.
( Rom. 4:4)"Now to him that WORKETH is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of DEBT."
( 1 John 1:6) "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and WALK in DARKNESS, WE LIE, and DO NOT THE TRUTH:"
( 2 Cor. 6:17) "Wherefore COME OUT from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"
( Heb. 11:8) "BY FAITH Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
Jordyn You should know that you cannot profess a FAITH in Christ yet WALK in DARKNESS
( Mat. 6:24)"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
We have to be cautious of the "subtle" things or I might as well continue smoking cigarettes, commit fornication, adultery and thievery so long as I BELIEVE. No, I want to have FULL OBEDIENCE.
( Rev 3:16) "So then because thou art LUKEWARM, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
You are explaining something I already understand quite well.
Again I thank you for your time and patience. you have helped me in some areas of which I am really grateful for.
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for your response and sharing your understanding of this scripture. I will continue to pray, study and research this as I want to keep an open mind. There has been some controversy over the years regarding exactly when, who and where the letters of 1John were presented, and to whom. Most agree, the letters would have been presented to wide gatherings of people in multiple places, which in all probability could include large audiences of not only believers, but also unbelievers.
It makes sense that John may have wanted to reach out and provide his messages to as many people as possible.
With that said, I was only commenting on 1 John verses 1-10, and as I read and understand these 10 verses, I still believe John was reaching out to the unsaved/nonbelievers in these particular verses. Not to dissect each verse I will present a key verse that sways me in my current understanding.
1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
John says that which we (Christians) have seen and heard we declare unto you (Christians already know this, he must be reaching out to others) John goes on to say: that ye also may have fellowship with us (Christians are already in fellowship, he is speaking to others that are not currently in fellowship) John then says: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ (Existing Christians would already be in fellowship with the these entities)
I do agree the remaining chapters in 1 John 2,3,4 and 5 were directed at existing Christians.
1 John:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
He is not speaking to believers here in 1John:8 he is speaking to unbelievers! He is hoping to gain new converts to fellowship with as you will see if you read the proceeding verses like 1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
Read on my friend. As believers we should be already be walking in truth 1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:6
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
1 John 3:6
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
As Christians we should stop telling ourselves and others that we can never stop sinning. This is a defeatist attitude and comes not from Jesus or God. In many places Jesus tells us nothing is impossible if we have Faith!
Again, we have Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(No believer has an evil heart of unbelief). The writer is saying examine yourself. Verse 10 he says, "They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
You emphasized 1 John 1;7.
I say: IF we are saved, we ARE walking in the light! if we are not in the light we ARE in darkness!
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7. (This is confirmation of salvation, not earning it or trying not to lose it.)
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on the verses you addressed in part 4 being that I have already gave my interpretation on these verses.
However, I would like to address 1 Timothy 4:1. In Part 3.
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13.
Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!
1 John 1:7.
Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.
2 Peter 2:20.
Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!
Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.
Galatians 6:9.
Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.
We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.
He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.
Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.
God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.
Colossians 1:23.
Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.
Hey brother just one last thing to consider.
Daniel 9:24-27, in this prophecy, there are seventy weeks or 490 years determined unto Daniel's people and the holy city to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Have these 6 things been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah, and the judgment of it carried out in 70 AD? If so, all of this prophecy has been fulfilled in the past.
1 To finish the transgression. To break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing. Psalms 32:1 Isaiah 53:5-11 Romans 4:14-15 Galatians 3:18-19 Hebrews 9:14-15.
2 To make an end to sins. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Matthew 1:21 Hebrews 10:8-11 John 1:29 1 Corinthians 15:3 1 John 3:5 Psalm 32:1 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 8:3.
3 To make reconciliation for iniquity. Reconciliation is an element of salvation that refers to the results of the atonement. Colossians 1:20-22 Isaiah 53:6 Isaiah 53:11 Romans 5:11 Ephesians 2:16 Titus 2:14 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
4 To bring in everlasting righteousness. In conformity to the demands of the covenant and according to God's will. Isaiah 61:10-11 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 5:17-21 2 Corinthians 5:21 1 Peter 2:24.
5 To seal up the vision and prophecy. The greatest prediction, which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament, is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah, Jesus. Daniel 9:23 Matthew 11:11-15 Mark 1:14-15 John 5:36-40 John 6:27 Acts 3:18.
6 To anoint the most holy. The high priest went into the holy of holies once a year with the blood of a sacrificed bull. Jesus our high priest with His own blood anointed the most holy not made with hands once and for all, forever. Hebrews 9:6-14.
Jesus said it in John 19:28-30.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2.
Sanctification and fruit barring.
Having Christ's righteousness imputed to us does not mean we automatically do what is right-that will come through the process of sanctification. What it does mean is that we are positionally righteous; even though we still sin, we are legally righteous. God has credited the righteousness of Christ to our account, and He did this when He saved us. In grace, the holiness of Jesus Christ is ascribed to us. Christ "has become for us wisdom from God, that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption"
1 Corinthians 1:30.
1John 5:13 reads"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Here's an helpful article.
If a person knows Christ and is growing in grace, he or she will be generally marked by the following traits:
1. The believer enjoys fellowship with Christ and His redeemed people. 1 John 1:3.
2. The believer walks in the light, not in the darkness. 1 John 1:6-7.
3. The believer admits and confesses his sin. 1 John 1:8.
4. The believer obeys God's Word. 1 John 2:3-5.
5. The believer loves God rather than the world. 1 John 2:15.
6. The believer's life is characterized by "doing what is right" 1 John 2:29.
7. The believer seeks to maintain a pure life. 1 John 3:3.
8. The believer sees a decreasing pattern of sin in his life. 1 John 3:5-6.
1 John 5:18.
9. The believer demonstrates love for other Christians ( 1 John 3:14).
10. The believer "walks the walk," versus just "talking the talk" 1 John 3:18-19.
11. The believer maintains a clear conscience. 1 John 3:21.
12. The believer experiences victory in his Christian walk 1 John 5:4.
Number 8 in the list above is that the believer will evince a decreasing pattern of sin in his or her life.
No one who belongs to Christ continue to "Practice" sin as a way of life.
1 Peter 2:2
God bless.
A new life is initiated by a new birth and we find that when we accept Christ as our Lord and savior.
The dawning of spring is a vivid reminder of Christian truths about new birth, new beginnings, and resurrection.
Jesus said,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
( John 3:3).
Our life is fruitless without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
When we come to faith in Jesus, the Spirit of God comes to live in us, sealing us as God's own adopted children, guaranteeing us a future inheritance ( Rom. 8:16; Gal. 4:4-7; Eph. 1:13-14; Titus 3:4-7).
He also gives us the power to do the good works that pleases God and produce fruit.
Have you been born again by placing your faith in Christ alone? Do you love God? Have His peace in your heart? Love His people? Hunger and thirst for righteousness? Desire to serve Him and share the life-changing news of the gospel with others? These are just a few signs that you may have been born twice! One physically, one spiritually.
While we are thankful for the new, secure birth in Christ, we should also be thankful for the new beginnings.
Even though we are children of God, we still strugglewithsin, and when we do, we do not need to get saved all over again, we are His children forever.
However, because of our sins, our relationship isn't where it should be and we need to be reconciled to Him, having our sins forgiven so that our fellowship, "that oneness can be restored.
Our relationship with Him is restored when, in prayer, we confess our sins to Him. 1 John 1:9.
God bless.
As S Spencer said, this is an interesting question, just some last thoughts and whether or not we have enough Scripture to know the complete answer. Scripture is relatively silent about the eternal past, even in the New Testament, where the clearest and fullest light of God's revelation shines. Very few passages reach backward in their scope further than the foundation of the world at the beginning of the ages of our time. God's plan was before the foundation of this earth was laid.
God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all, 1 John 1:5, and we know from Job 38 that the angels and the principalities and powers in heaven were created before Genesis 1. A thought, God created darkness as a place to put the earth outside of the third heaven, the earth was without form and void, this would be empty of all life and covered in surging water of chaos enclosed in total darkness that God's Spirit moved upon and God said let there be light, God called light out of darkness His light moved into the space of darkness.
God called out of this darkness everything there is below the third heaven and the time we live in. My understanding is different on Lucifer in Isaiah 14, and something happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 but that may be for other discussions.
Thank you for these questions, they inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
The superscription is the Latin phrase for the Savior of the World and while we study the last supper let us keep this aspect of the Son in our mind. Each gospel has something to tell us about the significance of it.
"And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;/ For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."(26:27-28) Luke also treats the same. He does it after he blesses the cup. which is by offering it to his Father. "And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves." Divide it among yourselves is similar to the act of the Sower in the Parable. "Behold, a sower went forth to sow;" The field is the world where the heart is not alike. In vv.4-6 we read how the seed come to nought or produced very little. the fault lay entirely with the heart of man. "but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."( 1 John 1:7-9). Blood of Jesus is not at fault but the heart of man is. Out of it comes heresies since it is not entirely good. Like the proverbial curates egg it is half half. So some of the time man runs with his brethren and claims."I have seen the light Hallelujiah" and at other time he is chasing with politicians to do their bidding. Limited salvation as some sects claim is a case in point. If they stumble at this what else is there for them? "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."(Jas.2:10)
Notice it is "after supper" that he said " Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." As with the bread they have had partaken the bread during the Last supper "this do in remembrance of me."( Luke 22:19-20). If one makes 'this cup' to mean his blood, what are we to assume? Man's reason is at fault.
As with anything that comes into our minds, whether to lie, lust or whatever, when we it begins to take hold, to affect our minds & consciences, we must deal with it speedily, in the power of the Spirit lest it becomes sin & we offend our Heavenly Father. Yet, there is forgiveness if we earnestly repent of it & seek to cast it aside ( 1 John 1:9).
1 John 1:9
Much love to you, in Christ Jesus.
1 John 1:10 says "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Someone claiming they haven't sinned is a sin; it's calling God a liar.
Either way, people sin, including you. No one in this forum believes you haven't sinned in your life. We should strive to be perfect and try very hard to avoid sin as Jesus challenged us to do, and that's awesome if we can make it through a day without any knowledge of wrongdoing. But we have a sinful nature and with God's rules it's extremely easy to sin. And I think we might sin and not even be aware of it.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28 KJV
I believe this means the same to a man or woman. Have you never once in your life looked at someone with lust? Never coveted? Never lied even in the smallest way? Never gluttony- overeating or not taking care your body? Always 100% respected God's holy temple? Anger? Loving others? Can anyone go an entire week or month without doing one of these?
Do you believe you've been perfect your whole life like Jesus, or do you just mean that since being a Christian you aren't aware of any recent sin?
My comment is intended to be helpful to you. I think I would do you a disservice to not challenge your assumption. God bless
This verse is 100% clear what it means. It's calling someone deceived and dishonest if they say they are without sin.
"And behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."
The Spirit uses the expression, "behold" which is not solely addressed to the natural ear but also to the ear of faith. This is the significance of the bright cloud,- they have heard and woe to ye if you pretend not to hear it. The scribes and Pharisees were good at this hypocrisy, "Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:/All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."(23:2) Similarly whosoever speaks of justification and have no faith in works he is a liar. "f we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." ( 1 John 1:10). His word is not in them is what Apostle John says to them. God witnessed 'Hear ye him" and the cloud of witnesses representing the world of the Spirit is in each of us witnesses the truth. Hypocrisy of the Evangelicalism is to deny the works. "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."(John6:29)
Elisha would thus know beforehand the plan of King of Syria, and as the servant tells, "None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber." (2 Ki.6:12). This is precisely what Jesus meant, "Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."( Luke 12:3). Psalmist David calls the cloud of witnesses as the great congregation. (Ps.40:9) This is the reason that I spare not myself to reveal what the Spirit has instructed me, despite of my age and infirmities because this shall be read and become the mainstream as and when God shall decide. So patience and faith makes my labour of love as for His glory. Amen
I see this the way you do Gigi.
It troubles me to hear someone say they have been made perfect and they no longer "commit" sin when the Holy spirit convicts us of sin. The holyspirit also guides us to truth.
In 1 John 1 John is writing to believers. John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10.
John is writing to believers!!
There is not much more to said to a person if the Holy spirit isn't convicting and guiding them to this truth.
God bless.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The people in these verses are those who refuse to believe they are sinners in the first place, scoffers who don't believe in sin, don't think they need salvation because they don't believe they are sinners.
When Paul was writing this letter he expected the Roman church to read it from beginning to end, as a letter would be read, and to understand that, although the law needs to exist to show us what sin is, and that we can be tempted to break these laws and sin when we are tempted of satan, that as christians, God expected the church to live sinless because God forbade them to believe they could sin under Grace.
For those who may wish to respond to this discussion, I welcome the replies, however, please discuss the sinning/christian doctrine with scriptures and Godly common sense. Please show me where I am wrong with the scriptures I have used by telling me why the interpretation I have given is incorrect. Not simply by your opinion, but by other scriptures. What God says not man. God Bless :)
Such a passage should be enough to convince someone of the fact that there will always be the potential to sin. The first thing we should point out here is that even without any outer manifestations of sin man has a sin nature. I believe it is scriptural to say that at the point of salvation we are as Galatians 2:20 states "crucified with Christ". If we are truly saved we can theoretically continue after the time of our salvation to live without sinning but the pattern of living in sin is still deep in our minds. That nature therefore must meet resistance and a believer is therefore sensing that he is "grieving the Spirit" ( Eph. 4:30-31). These verses show one is sealed indeed until redemption (by death or rapture); but that we can still do things displeasing to God.
Another thing is the use of the word perfect. Matthew 5:48 shows how Christ commanded on the Sermon of the Mount to be perfect. This was in reference to agape love; that is loving your enemies as well as your friends; in other words the opposite of hypocrisy of the Pharisees in particular. I would agree that we are called to live out our lives in total submission to the Spirit which we all fail on but we are starting to be progressively sanctified as believers. We must be cautious also not to assume our legalism is attaining any righteousness; however. Loving our brother is stated in 1 John as an imperative as well; if we show disdain because of any sin in their lives in the flesh we are sinning ourselves.
Furthermore; we have the verse in Genesis where it states that Noah was "perfect in his generations." ( Gen. 6:9). This does refer to he being the only true worshipper of God (and probably his family) as opposed to those who missed the boat; but in context it likely is not biologically corrupted as the offspring of the Nephilim which was likely everyone else who missed the ark.
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.
Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.
If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.
The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.
Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?
Thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
I have followed you and others on this great discussion!
Thanks for giving your understanding.
You stated the "beginning" in John 1:1-10 refers to Christ earthly ministry.
I believe we should ask ourselves "What was Christ role in those 3 years?
We know that Jesus's death brought in the new covenant that was Prophesied to come in the OT, ( Jeremiah 31:31) "also other verses". but what was his ministry or Role during those 3 years?
During Jesus 3-year ministry he sought out the ( lost sheep of Israel ).
John is identifying Jesus as "the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And as the "true Light, which lighteth (every man) that cometh into the world". Here John is not talking about Jesus earthly ministry, the lost sheep of Israel or his role.
JESUS ROLE AND THE ENDING OF THE OLD COVENANT IS ANOTHER TOPIC, BUT I BELIEVE THE 3 YEAR MINISTRY WAS ENDING THE OLD COVENANT AND HIS DEATH WAS THE BEGINING OF THE NEW COVENANT.
Jesus as savior was announced in Genesis 3:15.
In John 5:39 Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's ministry as savior was performed in the Old Testament in types, JOHN IS NOT ADDRESSING THE BEGINNING OF NEITHER OF THOSE.
I would like to highlight something in John 1:1-10.
We see Jesus as the word, as God, as life, as light and as the "creator in verse 10",
Jesus is called the light, and that light didn't begin at Christ earthly ministry according to verse 9
This light is also mentioned in 1 John 1:1-7. God is also referenced as that light!
We see the Trinity in the light as the Father and the light as the Son as the same in these passages.
You have the father the son and the Holy Spirit exhibited in John 1:1-10 and 1 John 1:1-7.
God bless.
This Docetic position stems from a belief that 'Deity cannot unite with flesh', but it doesn't mean that Scriptures aren't used to prove their belief, but with that foundation, their mental capabilities are engaged to re-visit Scriptures with alternative viewpoints. But there would be those who have from young age been taught that the incarnation is impossible (as you would know how RCs are indoctrinated from an early age in other matters, viz. Mary, saints, indulgences, penances, the Mass, etc.); or others by their own research from books, the Web, etc., where they can find a 'better' logic to this mystery, than just accepting what the Word states.
Thus we have the apostolic epistles, which essentially are pastoral letters directed to Churches for teaching, encouragement, dealing with problems/matters arising, & refuting the teaching of others that were contrary to what they had been taught. I always go back to 1 John in this 'docetic' regard, as Gnosticsm was rife then & John had to deal with it (see 1 John 1:1,2; 1 John 2:18 (the anti-Christ spirit, cf 1 John 4:2,3); 1 John 2:22,23). GBU.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Part 4
I will make this the last and probably short.
John 1:1 I see John's prolog as the beginning of Jesus ministry, not the Genesis creation, we see this in 1 John 1:1-3 seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers. John says they heard, they saw, they touched this Word of life. and this word was manifested, Jesus being the tabernacle of God with us on earth.
I will stop for now and study over what you have posted. I do thank you Chris so much for the time and effort you put in this, and I will go over it.
God bless,
RLW
In the Abstract we have God blessing His creation. (Ge.1:20-22) In the light of the above here we have St Peter making a distinction as to what kosher is and what is not.
"And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat./ But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."(Ac.10:13-14) In the vision of Simon Peter at Joppa, his Jewish mindset proved daunting. So the voice came second time and third time. But the voice made the point:' What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.' The Spirit is specific and the number Three, -a command number mentioned above is for instruction: the Son has cleansed with his blood such ceremonial defilement stipulated in the Law of Moses. ( 1 John 1:7)
Jesus during his earthly ministry pointed where defilement could occur:"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man./For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:/These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.(Matt.15:18-20).
In this context to the pure everything is pure. (Ti.1:15). This purity is not imposed from outside by sheer will but in being at rest, letting Jesus who lives in the believer at rest too, so whatever he does is for the glory of God. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Pe.4:11)
When I repent and confess my sins to HIM, HE is faithful and just to forgive me, and cleanse me from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
When I walk in the Spirit; it will keep me from sin. Galatians 5:16
Thank YOU LORD JESUS for the joy of serving YOU.
Merry Christmas to all, and a prosperous New Year.
GOD to shine HIS blessed face on all who read, pray, and follow HIS precepts and commandments.
December 21, 2023
I had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine who is a young Pastor last week. In it; he was lamenting an individual who claimed that Christ died for him (or her). This was because the evidence of it through this person's behavior would indicate otherwise. It is indeed true and necessary that we all have a personal understanding and experience in regard to salvific faith and repentance granted in regard to being one of God's elect if indeed we are saved. Clearly "accepting" Christ as Lord isn't really doing anything beyond what demons do and shudder ( James 2:19). Confession with the mouth and belief in the heart must coexist ( Romans 10:9-10); it is more than just a verbal declaration of facts. Nonetheless there should be some understanding of the atonement; as well as evidence that the heart has been changed with the spirit convicting of sin; righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8). As the Lord states "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" ( Matt. 12:34 and other related verses in New and Old Testament). What John 3:16 is indicating is a state of belief; not merely a one time thing (as translated correctly). Enduring to the end shows that it isn't our own strength which brings about this result; since we all struggle with sin as long as we live ( 1 John 1:8). Nonetheless we have the capacity to live a life of Holiness; since greater is He within us than he who is in the world ( 1 John 4:4).
There are variations of strengths and weaknesses that we all have; some are steeped in doctrines but rather cold in affection towards God; others seem to be caught up in experiences at the expense of wisdom from the Word; and often they seem to have little grasp of repentance or deem it not worthy in very much discussion. There is ample substance in the Word for the Spirit to enlighten us; and any personal vision or dream must be subject to the Word; if in variance then it must be discarded.
MORE TO COME
This is a difficult subject to discuss openly. Being one is to be united in the holy love of God. The way we can do this is to become one with His Son, Jesus Christ the only way to the Father, John 14:6. When a man and woman are married, they become one as we through faith become one in Jesus. When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist Jesus was filled without measure with the Holy Ghost/Spirit, God's Spirit, John 3:34.
God was manifested in Jesus, John 14:10 1 Tim. 3:10. Jesus was the Tabernacle of God, John 10:38. Jesus and the Father are one John 10:30 and Jesus told us we can be one as He and the Father are one, John 17:20-23. Jesus did nothing on His own, only the will of the Father, Jesus was obedient to the Father, Rom. 5:19 and as you said, Jesus was sent by the Father, John 5:30. The doctrine Jesus laid out was not His doctrine but His who sent Him, the Father, John 7:16.
All things are delivered unto Jesus of the Father, Matt. 11:27 and all in heaven and earth is under Jesus's feet, 1 Cor. 15:27 and will be until the last enemy is under His feet, that is death, Rev. 20:14. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, John 14:28. Scripture says Jesus has a God, 2 Cor. 11:3 1 Eph. 1:3 Eph. 1:17 Col 1:3 Jesus said He had a God John 20:17.
In the garden, Jesus prayed to the Father that the cup He was about to partake could pass if there was another way, but said not His will but the Father's will, Matt. 26:39. All the introductions, greetings, and blessings in the Scriptures in the New Testament that are given to the followers of Christ and called to be saints from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, two not three.
Rom. 1:7-8 1 Cor. 1:3-4 1 John 1:3 2 John 1:3 2 Cor. 1:2-3 Gal. 1:3-4 Eph. 1:2-3 Phil. 1:2 Col. 1:2-3 2 Thess.1:2 1 Tim.1:2 2 Tim.1:2 Titus 1:4 Philemon 1:3 2 Pet. 1:2.
You must study the Scriptures letting the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God guide you to your understanding, not from my reply, or man.
God bless,
RLW
I have FAITH in the finished WORKS of Christ.
( Rom. 3:10)"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
( Rom. 3:23)"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
It is because of that FAITH that leads me in to a life of OBEDIENCE.
( Rom. 4:4)"Now to him that WORKETH is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of DEBT."
( 1 John 1:6) "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and WALK in DARKNESS, WE LIE, and DO NOT THE TRUTH:"
( 2 Cor. 6:17) "Wherefore COME OUT from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"
( Heb. 11:8) "BY FAITH Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."
Jordyn You should know that you cannot profess a FAITH in Christ yet WALK in DARKNESS
( Mat. 6:24)"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
We have to be cautious of the "subtle" things or I might as well continue smoking cigarettes, commit fornication, adultery and thievery so long as I BELIEVE. No, I want to have FULL OBEDIENCE.
( Rev 3:16) "So then because thou art LUKEWARM, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
You are explaining something I already understand quite well.
Again I thank you for your time and patience. you have helped me in some areas of which I am really grateful for.
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for your response and sharing your understanding of this scripture. I will continue to pray, study and research this as I want to keep an open mind. There has been some controversy over the years regarding exactly when, who and where the letters of 1John were presented, and to whom. Most agree, the letters would have been presented to wide gatherings of people in multiple places, which in all probability could include large audiences of not only believers, but also unbelievers.
It makes sense that John may have wanted to reach out and provide his messages to as many people as possible.
With that said, I was only commenting on 1 John verses 1-10, and as I read and understand these 10 verses, I still believe John was reaching out to the unsaved/nonbelievers in these particular verses. Not to dissect each verse I will present a key verse that sways me in my current understanding.
1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
John says that which we (Christians) have seen and heard we declare unto you (Christians already know this, he must be reaching out to others) John goes on to say: that ye also may have fellowship with us (Christians are already in fellowship, he is speaking to others that are not currently in fellowship) John then says: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ (Existing Christians would already be in fellowship with the these entities)
I do agree the remaining chapters in 1 John 2,3,4 and 5 were directed at existing Christians.
GBU
He is not speaking to believers here in 1John:8 he is speaking to unbelievers! He is hoping to gain new converts to fellowship with as you will see if you read the proceeding verses like 1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ."
Read on my friend. As believers we should be already be walking in truth 1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
1 John 2:6
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
1 John 3:6
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
As Christians we should stop telling ourselves and others that we can never stop sinning. This is a defeatist attitude and comes not from Jesus or God. In many places Jesus tells us nothing is impossible if we have Faith!
Read and Believe
Part 2.
Continuing my response to part 1.
Again, we have Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
(No believer has an evil heart of unbelief). The writer is saying examine yourself. Verse 10 he says, "They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
You emphasized 1 John 1;7.
I say: IF we are saved, we ARE walking in the light! if we are not in the light we ARE in darkness!
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7. (This is confirmation of salvation, not earning it or trying not to lose it.)
I believe we will have to agree to disagree on the verses you addressed in part 4 being that I have already gave my interpretation on these verses.
However, I would like to address 1 Timothy 4:1. In Part 3.
See Part 3.
Part three,
Each believer is personally responsible for living in obedience to Christ's commands. 1 Timothy 4:16. Can we come up short, Hebrews 4:1. Some of the natural branches of the house of Israel were broken off for unbelief so the people of the nations who believe and are justified are grafted in. Believers/saved can be cut off if they do not continue in his goodness/grace. Romans 11:15-24.
Much of your post I agree, it is about becoming saved and our relationship with Jesus, and if we continue to abide in Him those scriptures apply. Concerning Pentecost, Peter was pleading that they accept Jesus as their Messiah that was promised, and they killed Him, not to repent from Judaism. Peter and the disciples at this time were still observing the old law. We see years later they were still debating it in Acts 15.
1 Cor. 9:27 If we look at the wording "But I keep under my body and bring it into subjection" it is as if his body is his adversary. It is like he was beating his body whether it is said metaphorical, but to the subduing of the natural appetites of the flesh, a life of self-denial not to succumb to the sins of the flesh. The Greek adokimos translated as castaway, is the same word for reprobate, Romans 1:28 Titus 1:16. I do not think Paul is talking about rewards.
Hebrews 3:12-13 This chapter starts with "Wherefore holy brethern" These are Christians, saved, verse 6 "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." The writer includes himself "If We". Verses 12 and 13 are to these same people and verse 14 says "For we are made partakers of Christ" Because they are made so they are saved believers in Christ.
1 John 1:7 If is conditional a choice if you walk in the light there is fellowship, if you don't walk in the light, you are outside of the fellowship.
See part four.
Part 6.
This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13.
Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!
1 John 1:7.
Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.
2 Peter 2:20.
Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!
Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.
Galatians 6:9.
Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.
We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.
He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.
Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.
God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.
Colossians 1:23.
Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.
See Part 7.