You stated; "all teachins have both a heavenly & literal meanin..
Ok, Here is what I said,
"We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, UNLESS the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed.
I don't understand why you feel there is a disagreement so I won't get into that.
You stated; "
biggest problem is the bible has been so altered & butchered no one knows the truth"
Do you believe that what was supposedly excluded from the Bible was all important?
Do you believe what is written must be absolute truth and the truth is vital for our salvation?
Do you believe God's word is important to him?
Do you believe there is any other way to know God outside his Word?
Do you believe God is omniscience?
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
If you answered yes to these last two questions then how can a worm such as humans thwart his all important message to those he loves by contaminating his word?
I think much more of him than that and he expects us to.
That's an insult to who he is!
Isaiah 40:6-8. "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: BUT THE WORD OF OUR GOD SHALL STAND FOR EVER.
1 Peter 1:23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
I hold that to be truth.
Did God have to write to Moses and the Prophets?
G has no problem getting out his word, he made Balaam's donkey speak.
There are many churches who are going to detail the last week of Christ's earthly ministry before His death on the cross from Palm Sunday's exaltation and praise to the Passover meal; betrayal and all the sufferings in Gethsemane followed by those leading up to his death in the mock trials involving the Jews and Roman authorities; and finally of course what He endured on the cross.
Following Passover (which happens to be off a month due to a leap year concept) we have the approximate time of the year correct as to when these things take place; of course now removed nearly 2000 years since the event. We naturally want to deviate from all the pagan rituals of Easter (derived from "Ishtar") along with the celebrations of fertility around the equinox and the variants related to eggs; bunnies and consuming ham. It is doubtful today that we are finding some sinister idol worship when it comes to an egg hunt or consuming certain foods but for those whose conscience doesn't allow that; along with those who won't celebrate Christmas which admittedly has become even more perverted everyone should respect the decisions of others whether abstaining or not (unless somehow we are truly involved with some New Age or occult practices).
At any event; my main concept involves realizing the deliverance of the Exodus with Passover and of course how blood on the doorposts is symbolic of our Lord and His atonement for us with the perfect sacrifice as an unblemished lamb ( 1 Peter 1:19).
Remembering that this week is the culmination of the life of our Lord and not isolating the event from all the other perfect acts He did throughout His ministry needs to be taken into consideration along with the fact that He "ever lives to intercede for us now" ( Heb. 7:25). We must remember the sacrificial love He showed in our relations with others. There is no greater love than giving our life for our friends ( John 15:13). That is one day at a time until the end.
Hi Chris: I didn't understand your first question so I can't answer it and I disagree that being sinless now make me revert back to a body like in the Garden of Eden but I don't want to go into that in this discussion.
I am sinless. As He instructs me to be because He says in His word for us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect (Math. 5:48) and we are to be holy as He is holy. ( Leviticus 11: 44-45, Leviticus 19:2, Leviticus 20:7, 1 Peter 1: 15-16). People think these verses are just suggestions, or they don't count because they are in the OT. God's word from Genesis 1:1 to Rev. 12:22 all matter and tells us exactly how God wants us to live holy, righteous lives. I, of course, cannot be sinless as Jesus was because I was born into original sin and He wasn't. But when I was washed clean and made new by His divine blood, He rid me of the desire to sin. The devil tries to tempt me, but because I am without the nature to sin; the adamic nature, I have no desire to sin. I am also filled with the Holy Ghost, so I have all the weapons I need to resist him and as long as I keep these weapons, of prayer, reading and the study of His word, and fasting, new and at my side, I will be able to resist the temptation. It's when a christians gets lax or distracted or lazy that they can eventually fall back into sin. But if they want to make heaven they must do their first fruits (asking forgiveness for sin and asking that the desires for son be removed) again. These verses of perfection and holiness are exactly what God expects of us and He wouldn't tell us to be that way if He didn't make a way for us to be like this. I wasn't sinless until I gave my heart, soul and "old man" to Jesus. When I was saved, I not only prayed for my soul to be washed clean through His divine, forgiving blood, I also prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to sin anymore and asked if He would take the desire to sin from me (the human nature I inherited from Adam.)
1. Payment of the redemption; illustrated with the "Kinsman-Redeemer" situation between Boaz and Ruth in the book of Ruth. This is the first visible action from the Lord only when one comes to salvation; it was predetermined in the counsel of God before the foundation of the world ( Eph. 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20).
2. Repentance being granted. This is also mentioned in Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:25.
3. Confession by the mouth as a result of believing in the heart ( Romans 10:9-13). This is an action of response to God's saving grace.
There is no other way or method to salvation but by God's prescribed measure of believing on the Son ( Matt. 11:27)
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:471 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20Acts 17:31Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.
I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.
I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.
Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.
Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.
God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.
I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.
Besides, this was the work of their own hands.
Only the blood of Christ can take away sin
and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.
Jeremiah 17:8 along with Psalm 1 bring out the benefits of a tree whose roots are planted near the water. This steadfast faith in the Lord is contrasted in the next verse which describes the vicissitudes of the heart of unregenerate man. These vital concepts describe the state of a soul; who needs to be vigilant to bearing fruit and testing themselves to see if they are in the faith is a necessary prerequisite ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who do not bear fruit are cut off and burned; a figurative statement describing a very real state of the lost at Judgment Day (see John 15:2).
Surely all flesh is as grass ( 1 Peter 1:24) and like a vapor this life soon passes away ( James 4:14). Eternity is in men's hearts showing that indeed the nature of man is for their spirit to live forever after the body and soul perish ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). This means their legacy is either eternal glory and recognition of those things done while living for the Lord; or eternal damnation for the lack thereof. (see Matthew 25:34 and associated verses).
There is some hope for us who still are producing works of wood; hay and stubble ( 2 Tim. 2:21-23) to change to better works if we have a foundation in Christ ( 1 Cor. 3:11). This results in varying degrees or levels in the harvest and subsequent reward for those who are saved (see also Mark 4:20).
Those in the flesh and not Born Again can only interpret what they see around them in the world (the actions of others who serve as their peers and interpreted through their own understanding). God alone as I see it through predestination determines who will be saved. On our end it takes a fair evaluation of who we really are as compared to a righteous God which then leads to godly sorrow and repentance (which is indeed a gift from God as about half a dozen scriptures indicate). John 16:8 must enlighten us to our desperate plight that SHOULD be aided by proper evangelism appealing for individuals to repent.
And yes, I agree with you Momsage, that there is no clear indication about this in the Bible. However, since there is evidence of angelic observance of matters on Earth (as I shared earlier: Matthew 18:10 & 1 Peter 1:10-12) as well as Revelation 6:9,10 (the martyrs plea to God against those thirsty for their blood on Earth), one can see why this belief of a general observance from Heaven's 'residents' can be easily accepted. So for me, as much as I don't subscribe to it, I can understand why some do. And if such a belief doesn't lead to any sin of idolatry, diminishing of God's Holiness & Authority, or elevation of the heavenly ones to a place of refuge for us, then it is a belief that they will have to come to terms with in the Light of the Scriptures.
I agree Momsage, there is no clear instruction or evidence of departed souls in Heaven looking down upon us. I feel that this belief developed from certain passages, such as Matthew 18:10 (angelic activity & witness on behalf of children); 1 Peter 1:10-12 (angelic interest in the workings of the Gospel & people's response to it); and Hebrews 12:1 (the cloud of witnesses: are they actually witnessing/observing our lives on Earth, or is the message for us, 'to lay aside sin & run the race with patience, since we have those who have done so before us which should be our example, or witness to us?). So, if there is angelic observance, some might be inclined, even for comfort sake, also believe that departed souls also have similar opportunity, interest & power to do so. This is probably a belief best left aside for the Word is not specific on it & should not be taught as fact. And I've always thought, that if souls are in the presence of the Lord, would there even be any desire to cast the 'mind' or 'eyes' anywhere else, rather than behold the Glory & Beauty of God in continual worship of Him?
Yes, Momsage, man will always have free will & be able to make choices in life (a gift granted by God). What I've tried to show from my comment you referred to, is that when God by His Spirit is indwelling & controlling His child, the child, though having free will & maybe somewhat self-willed, will always be under the Spirit's watchful Ministry - and this can include correction, warning, discipline, even death (so that the "spirit may be saved": 1 Corinthians 5:5).
From what the Word tells me about the Work of the Spirit, is that a truly saved person, though subject to correction will be kept by HIS Power & not ours: 1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, TO an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth NOT away, RESERVED in heaven for you, Who are KEPT by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." All of God's Work & according to His Promise; or else, we can be popping in & out of salvation (re-birth) at will, making mockery of God's faultless & unfailing work.
Thank you for the testimony of you & your husband's 'salvation', your departure from the Lord & subsequent joyful return. I think many of us can testify similarly of such an experience - but in each case, we have to rely on God's Work & Word & the knowledge that "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord KNOWETH them that are his. And, Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" ( 2 Timothy 2:19). I believe that those whom the Lord seals (& He alone knows them by name), can never be un-sealed. As in your case, or even with me, having at one stage left the Lord & enjoyed the world's offerings, & then returned, it is the Lord's application of His Work in our lives - and this Work usually testifies well through personal testimony. Blessings.
Thank you, there are different understandings of who Jesus was and is, whether He was a man born of a woman His Father being God, or the incarnation of the eternal Son the second member of a Triune God, fully man, and fully God. However, one believes Jesus was without sin from birth to death. There was no sin in Him, He did not commit any sin. He is the spotless Lamb that was slain for our sins. He lived a perfect life that no man has ever done or can do, before or after Him, 1 Peter 1:191 John 3:5.
I was relating to Gigi's insert of Revelation 13:8. It parallels with 1 Peter 1:19-21 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
I don't believe Jesus had a mission to complete to "become" the unblemished Lamb of God. He existed in the realm of eternity in the God head before he took on flesh.
You are correct, I was referring to 1 Corinthians 15.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(JESUS, A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT) In John 14:6-7 Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jesus said this before he was crucified and resurrected.
Verses 47-49
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Jesus was the Heavenly before the foundation of the world, he didn't have to wait on the resurrection to be what he already is.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Hi F Major. 1 Peter 1:2 tells us, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
The Apostle Peter wrote this letter to Christians, mainly of Jewish birth, who were scattered to other nations (mainly resulting from the great persecutions from the Jewish leaders/Saul: Acts 8:1). Peter calls them the Elect of God, i.e. those whom God has chosen to be His. And what criterion did God use to make this selection? The Word tells us that they, and us who believe, are chosen by Him because He knew beforehand (foreknowledge) all those who would hear the Gospel of Salvation through Christ & would respond in faith.
So yes, God has chosen each one of us who believes - He didn't force us to believe just so that we wouldn't nullify His wise choosing by Him making a mistake; but He knew who would respond & to these were granted the gift & privilege of being adopted into His family (see Ephesians 1:3-14 for a greater picture of this mighty Work of God on our behalf). Does this then mean that we don't need to share the Gospel with those trapped & lost in sin because God will save them anyway if they are called to be His elect? No, we must share the Gospel with all, because not only are we not privy to those who would be saved, but God has chosen to save some because when they hear the Gospel, they will believe by the convicting power of His Spirit, & they will call upon the Name of Jesus to save them from the awful penalty of sin & estrangement from a loving God.
"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious..." ( 1 Peter 2:7). If we truly belong to the LORD, Jesus is the most Precious One in our lives, for He has chosen us to be saved with so great & costly a salvation. Unbelievers might stomp on Jesus, curse & ridicule Him - but to us He is precious and our delight, & we can be ever thankful for being chosen to be His.
I understand this subject is hard to discuss in a short post, to cover all the many Scriptures, some seem the point one way and others the other way.
Do you think Jesus is only a created human being? Of course not, He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the anointed one, Jesus is our Lord, our savior whom God sent that shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Do I believe Jesus had a beginning the answer is yes.
Do you think that the Son of God did not exist before Jesus was conceived? If you think that the Son of God existed before the conception of Jesus, do you believe He was created?
Hard to answer, Scripture tells us Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, Rev. 3:4. Jesus could not be a timeless eternal Son and be the beginning of the creation of God, God has no beginning. 1 Peter 1:18-20 Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you". If created means to bring into existence the answer would have to be yes.
Do you worship Jesus? Jesus is the mediator between God and us He is the only way to the Father and is worthy of worship and honor Him, Philippians 2:10.
Do you believe that Jesus is divine? If divine means Jesus is God my answer is no. Jesus is the Son of God our Savior, Messiah, King, in being those He is divine.
Christian Greetings GIGI, I like your thoughts, especially about the circle that is here in this little online fellowship! Here we can try to express our understandings without a face or a smile or handshake and it is good. I began with the thought of sacredness of life and its various relationships in doctrine and practice of the Church in the visible form. With bodies! Sacred is holy and a new born member of the living church is known by name and perhaps family. Paul noted that brethren gave he and Barnabus "the right hand of fellowship". This greeting is good but misses the depth of the bond of love in the practice of the holy kiss. Members can know (the practice still sometimes used is brothers with brothers and sisters with sisters with a dry kiss) the mutual love and rich blessing on occasion.
I think this scripture is an important foundation to the sacredness of life and the holy salutation (by the lips).
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart feverently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" 1 Peter 1:22-23
It is the pureness of this kiss because such a change was made that passes that unfeigned love and it makes for unity by the Spirit.
This practice for those that practice it at all is hard on the flesh and therefore somewhat rare in occurence. It takes a little extra grace to move from the name and handshake and initiate the Kiss. So then the Holy Kiss is related not only to the sacredness of life but also to the very present Church of believers and the lack of resistance by grace by the flesh to heed to the spiritual.
2 Timothy 2:21 shows that we can clean ourselves so that we are not just vessels of clay but can be vessels of honor. Jesus tells us that he purges branches to produce more fruit ( John 15:2). We thus face that the lost are nothing but dead branches or profane vessels but we can through sanctification work towards purification and honor. We can perhaps see this also with the parable of the sower where some have the thorns of worldly cares snuff them out. ( Mark 4:18-19). A truly saved individual will pass the test of the trials which God places to test His own (see 1 Peter 1:7).
To succeed we need to be hidden in Christ ( Colossians 3:3) and truly be dead in Christ. Our old nature is impossible to put to death otherwise and will forever try to resurrect itself. God has put eternity into the hearts of men ( Ecclesiastes 3:11); yet that verse shows we cannot see to understand God who is basically beyond time and ourselves. Perhaps self preservation is a reflection that we are an eternal soul; thankfully God has the upper hand for those He has called and predestined will make it to glorification; and that for eternity ( Romans 8:30).
The concept of redemption or Kinsman redeemer is seen with the story of Ruth. Christ redeemed us from among men through His atoning sacrifice ( Galatians 3:13). He purchased us with His blood. He has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west ( Psalm 103:12 also read verses 13 to 14). We have passed from death to life ( John 5:24). His Spirit bears witness with our spirit as to our salvation ( Romans 8:16).
These and many other promises are things to meditate on and give comfort. We can only undestand such things if we are spiritually discerned; however and one of His children. ( 1 Cor. 2:14-15). Let us test ourselves to see if we are in the faith therefore ( 2 Cor. 13:5-6).
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
>The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment.
I agree with the sleep until Jesus comes, because that's what the Bible says.
However, are these verses that say we'll not be saved now but later conflict with your view?
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
IN THE LAST TIME, not NOW.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
THE END
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
DOES NOT SAY HE THAT ENDURE NOW, IS SAVED NOW. IT SAYS UNTO THE END, WHICH MEANS THE END, NOT NOW.
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
PATIENCE. IF YOURE SAVED NOW WHY NEED PATIENCE. YE "MIGHT" RECEIVE.. ITS CONDITIONAL.
Above are 4 verses saying we're saved later, not now. Can you find 4 or more verses that say we're saved now and not later?
I'm with you, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God given to us. A reason we differ, preconceived ideas are obstacles to the truth. We all grow up in cultures where we inherit certain biased beliefs, values, and attitudes from our parents, teachers, religious affiliation, peer groups, and friends. When we study the Bible unless we can clear these obstacles, and beliefs when we read our sub-conscience mind will block the true meaning with the ones we have stored in our mind.
We must empty our minds as we know nothing, take out the garbage, pray, and let the Spirit of Truth show us the true meaning of what we are studying. We must keep in mind we get milk first and then meat and it can be years between.
I also believe in one God and Father of all, who is the God and Father of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ.
John 20:17Romans 15:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 5:20Colossians 1:31 Peter 1:31 Corinthians 8:6.
You was saved from death 2000 years ago, when you were resurrected a NEW CREATION.
Christ (TRUTH) began revealing himself to you in 1979, this Revelation of "Christ in you" will continue until the angel ls sent to harvest HIS SEED.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (YOU) DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.
You are now in the birth pains of being born again.
Christ revealing who you are IN HIM.
1 Peter 1:23 Being BORN AGAIN ..... by the WORD(s) of GOD ...... TRUTH ......
Revelation 12:2 .... and she (YOU, Christ wife) being with child, travailing in birth, pained to be DELIVERED ......
1 Timothy 2:14 .... but the woman, being deceived (by a carnal mind) was in the TRANSGRESSION ....
1 Timothy 2:15 ..... she shall BE SAVED IN CHILDBEARING ...
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron....
Philippians 2:5 Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form (image) of God, thought it not robbery to equal to God.
1 Corinthians 2:16 ....we have the MIND of CHRIST ....
Romans 8:29 .... being predestinated (by the resurrection of Christ) to be conformed to his image .....
Revelation 2:26 And to him that overcometh (deception) and keepeth MY WORKS, to him will I give power over the nations .....
I'd like to spend a little extra time on this introduction because Peter, who wrote 1 & 2 Peter, there's more information about him than any other apostle. There are some interesting things about Peter in the scriptures.
Peter, in all of his quotes from the Old Testament, he quoted the Septuagint. He did not quote the Hebrew. Peter himself grew up and was raised in a Greek village. He knew the Greek language and wrote in the KOINE Greek of the New Testament.
NOW FOR THE INTRODUCTION TO BOTH 1ST AND 2ND PETER:
I. FIRST AND SECOND PETER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:
First and Second Peter are part of a collection of books in the New Testament called The Jewish Literature. The Jewish Literature begins with the Book of Hebrews and continues through to the end of the Book of Revelation.
II. THE AUTHOR:
The Writer of I & II Peter is Peter, as introduced to us in 1 Peter 1:1. There is more information known about Peter than any other Apostle.
Peter's original name in the Bible is Simon. In Hebrew he is known as Simeon. Simeon and Simon mean the same thing, same person.
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21Matt. 12:50John 20:172 Cor. 11:31Ephesians 1:31 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:161 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
To say that it was the same gospel, would be saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is faulty, & we all know it not.
1 Peter 1:10-12 "of the Grace that should come" future tense
NT gospel is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that sets one free from the law of sin & death
Who is able to redeem one completely out of sin. By the Blood/Life of the Lamb of God, who's blood/life purge out the old leaven from our very heart, & forms there, by His Spiirt the new creature,. Col 3:10 By God's command 2Cor 4:6 Who brings Jn 1:17 Who is ABLE cleanses, delivers & redeems to the uttermost to all that come to God through Him, Meaning in Spirit, not the letter.
Yet, I believe there were few in the OT, who's faith reach out into the NT
Remember, faith come by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself,
David, son of Jesse, would be one, Heb 6:5 his writing speak of this Spirit of Grace & Truth.
What measure he received of it ? him & God knows !
You stated; "all teachins have both a heavenly & literal meanin..
Ok, Here is what I said,
"We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, UNLESS the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed.
I don't understand why you feel there is a disagreement so I won't get into that.
You stated; "
biggest problem is the bible has been so altered & butchered no one knows the truth"
Do you believe that what was supposedly excluded from the Bible was all important?
Do you believe what is written must be absolute truth and the truth is vital for our salvation?
Do you believe God's word is important to him?
Do you believe there is any other way to know God outside his Word?
Do you believe God is omniscience?
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
If you answered yes to these last two questions then how can a worm such as humans thwart his all important message to those he loves by contaminating his word?
I think much more of him than that and he expects us to.
That's an insult to who he is!
Isaiah 40:6-8. "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: BUT THE WORD OF OUR GOD SHALL STAND FOR EVER.
1 Peter 1:23. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
I hold that to be truth.
Did God have to write to Moses and the Prophets?
G has no problem getting out his word, he made Balaam's donkey speak.
He can make a rock sing out.
God bless.
There are many churches who are going to detail the last week of Christ's earthly ministry before His death on the cross from Palm Sunday's exaltation and praise to the Passover meal; betrayal and all the sufferings in Gethsemane followed by those leading up to his death in the mock trials involving the Jews and Roman authorities; and finally of course what He endured on the cross.
Following Passover (which happens to be off a month due to a leap year concept) we have the approximate time of the year correct as to when these things take place; of course now removed nearly 2000 years since the event. We naturally want to deviate from all the pagan rituals of Easter (derived from "Ishtar") along with the celebrations of fertility around the equinox and the variants related to eggs; bunnies and consuming ham. It is doubtful today that we are finding some sinister idol worship when it comes to an egg hunt or consuming certain foods but for those whose conscience doesn't allow that; along with those who won't celebrate Christmas which admittedly has become even more perverted everyone should respect the decisions of others whether abstaining or not (unless somehow we are truly involved with some New Age or occult practices).
At any event; my main concept involves realizing the deliverance of the Exodus with Passover and of course how blood on the doorposts is symbolic of our Lord and His atonement for us with the perfect sacrifice as an unblemished lamb ( 1 Peter 1:19).
Remembering that this week is the culmination of the life of our Lord and not isolating the event from all the other perfect acts He did throughout His ministry needs to be taken into consideration along with the fact that He "ever lives to intercede for us now" ( Heb. 7:25). We must remember the sacrificial love He showed in our relations with others. There is no greater love than giving our life for our friends ( John 15:13). That is one day at a time until the end.
I am sinless. As He instructs me to be because He says in His word for us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect (Math. 5:48) and we are to be holy as He is holy. ( Leviticus 11: 44-45, Leviticus 19:2, Leviticus 20:7, 1 Peter 1: 15-16). People think these verses are just suggestions, or they don't count because they are in the OT. God's word from Genesis 1:1 to Rev. 12:22 all matter and tells us exactly how God wants us to live holy, righteous lives. I, of course, cannot be sinless as Jesus was because I was born into original sin and He wasn't. But when I was washed clean and made new by His divine blood, He rid me of the desire to sin. The devil tries to tempt me, but because I am without the nature to sin; the adamic nature, I have no desire to sin. I am also filled with the Holy Ghost, so I have all the weapons I need to resist him and as long as I keep these weapons, of prayer, reading and the study of His word, and fasting, new and at my side, I will be able to resist the temptation. It's when a christians gets lax or distracted or lazy that they can eventually fall back into sin. But if they want to make heaven they must do their first fruits (asking forgiveness for sin and asking that the desires for son be removed) again. These verses of perfection and holiness are exactly what God expects of us and He wouldn't tell us to be that way if He didn't make a way for us to be like this. I wasn't sinless until I gave my heart, soul and "old man" to Jesus. When I was saved, I not only prayed for my soul to be washed clean through His divine, forgiving blood, I also prayed and told the Lord that I didn't want to sin anymore and asked if He would take the desire to sin from me (the human nature I inherited from Adam.)
1. Payment of the redemption; illustrated with the "Kinsman-Redeemer" situation between Boaz and Ruth in the book of Ruth. This is the first visible action from the Lord only when one comes to salvation; it was predetermined in the counsel of God before the foundation of the world ( Eph. 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20).
2. Repentance being granted. This is also mentioned in Acts 11:18 and 2 Timothy 2:25.
3. Confession by the mouth as a result of believing in the heart ( Romans 10:9-13). This is an action of response to God's saving grace.
There is no other way or method to salvation but by God's prescribed measure of believing on the Son ( Matt. 11:27)
Part two,
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
Love you brother and God bless.
RLW
1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Philippians 2:9: yes, as a Son, Jesus is now subject to His Father & is exalted above all. Yet, the question remains unanswered, 'Who was Jesus prior to His Coming?' He wasn't called Jesus (though some believe in Christophany-type appearances in the OT), but the Scriptures, as I gave earlier, point to Him coming forth from within God.
1 Peter 1:19-21: "If Jesus pre-existed how could he be foreordained?" Jesus was foreordained before His coming to Earth - that was God's Plan & Purpose for redemption. But this verse tells us that Jesus was in God's Plan, but it doesn't speak of where Jesus came from at the beginning; this One Who from God, had framed the worlds ( Hebrews 1:2). I would think it nonsense if any would believe that Jesus, after His appearing, then ascended to the Father, & then made the worlds.
Rather than listing the Scriptures that show Jesus in the Flesh & returning to His Father triumphant (which we all agree to), we need to focus on whether the Scriptures show that He had a beginning before His earthly appearance - and these I gave which have not been addressed. Anyway, we'll leave it for now, as per your wish brother, but if any other 'non-trinitarian' wishes to continue this & specifically to exegete the Scriptures I gave earlier, then I will continue with it, as it is a most important doctrine to understand. Blessings.
I thank you for discussing this and I consider you as a brother in Christ. I do not feel I have represented Scripture in any kind of mystical or spiritual way. I am not trying to convince you, but to explain my understanding. I believe Jesus was a man same as the first Adam without sin, 1 Cor. 15:47 1 Timothy 2:5 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God miraculously conceived, born of the virgin Mary, Matthew 1:20 Acts 17:31 Rev. 12:5
Take Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father? How could God say I will be to him a Father and he shall be to me a Son if Jesus eternally existed with the Father.
Hebrews 2:7 from Psalms 8:5-6 God the Father made and set Jesus His only begotten Son over all His works of His hands this tells me the Father is the creator. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9. To me that is simply saying God the Father is superior and they are not coequal, God the Father highly exalted Jesus His Son.
Christ means He is the Anointed One nothing is above God so God cannot be anointed or anoint Himself, God is the one who anoints, as Jesus was anointed with the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost when He was baptized by John the Baptist. We also see in 1 Corinthians 11:3 This to me shows they are not equal, and God the Father is the head over all.
1 Peter 1:19-21 If Jesus preexisted how could he be foreordained? Eph. 1:10
Chris, I may could say more, maybe we can pick this back up again, but I hope you have some idea of my understanding, this is not to end this but just to pause I hope that is ok.
Jesus to me is Devine He is the Devine only begotten Son of God. He has been placed over all that is in heaven and earth and every knee will bow to Him. You do not think He had a beginning; I believe His beginning was in God's plan before any creation and was brought forth in the fulness of time.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
Adam and Eve were Saved by the cross the same way all that were saved in the OT.
I Would suggest forgiveness for Adam and Eve was granted before they were created.
I don't believe Adam and Eve surprised God by their disobedience in the Garden.
Christ was foreordained as the Lamb of God that take away the sins of the world "BEFORE" the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20. Revelation 13:8.
Jesus' death on the cross was not an after thought by God after the event of mankind falling into sin.
God covering of Coats of skin for Adam and Eve suggest that there was a shedding of blood to cover their nakedness.
I'm sure the fig leaves mentioned in Genesis 3:7 covered there outwardly exposed bodies but not the inward exposed nakedness guilt caused by their transgression.
Besides, this was the work of their own hands.
Only the blood of Christ can take away sin
and those OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ.
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
God has all along been revealing the "lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world through these OT sacrifices.
See Hebrews 9:7-14.
I hope this helps.
God bless.
Jeremiah 17:8 along with Psalm 1 bring out the benefits of a tree whose roots are planted near the water. This steadfast faith in the Lord is contrasted in the next verse which describes the vicissitudes of the heart of unregenerate man. These vital concepts describe the state of a soul; who needs to be vigilant to bearing fruit and testing themselves to see if they are in the faith is a necessary prerequisite ( 2 Cor. 13:5). Those who do not bear fruit are cut off and burned; a figurative statement describing a very real state of the lost at Judgment Day (see John 15:2).
Surely all flesh is as grass ( 1 Peter 1:24) and like a vapor this life soon passes away ( James 4:14). Eternity is in men's hearts showing that indeed the nature of man is for their spirit to live forever after the body and soul perish ( Ecclesiastes 3:11). This means their legacy is either eternal glory and recognition of those things done while living for the Lord; or eternal damnation for the lack thereof. (see Matthew 25:34 and associated verses).
There is some hope for us who still are producing works of wood; hay and stubble ( 2 Tim. 2:21-23) to change to better works if we have a foundation in Christ ( 1 Cor. 3:11). This results in varying degrees or levels in the harvest and subsequent reward for those who are saved (see also Mark 4:20).
Those in the flesh and not Born Again can only interpret what they see around them in the world (the actions of others who serve as their peers and interpreted through their own understanding). God alone as I see it through predestination determines who will be saved. On our end it takes a fair evaluation of who we really are as compared to a righteous God which then leads to godly sorrow and repentance (which is indeed a gift from God as about half a dozen scriptures indicate). John 16:8 must enlighten us to our desperate plight that SHOULD be aided by proper evangelism appealing for individuals to repent.
From what the Word tells me about the Work of the Spirit, is that a truly saved person, though subject to correction will be kept by HIS Power & not ours: 1 Peter 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, TO an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth NOT away, RESERVED in heaven for you, Who are KEPT by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." All of God's Work & according to His Promise; or else, we can be popping in & out of salvation (re-birth) at will, making mockery of God's faultless & unfailing work.
Thank you for the testimony of you & your husband's 'salvation', your departure from the Lord & subsequent joyful return. I think many of us can testify similarly of such an experience - but in each case, we have to rely on God's Work & Word & the knowledge that "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord KNOWETH them that are his. And, Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" ( 2 Timothy 2:19). I believe that those whom the Lord seals (& He alone knows them by name), can never be un-sealed. As in your case, or even with me, having at one stage left the Lord & enjoyed the world's offerings, & then returned, it is the Lord's application of His Work in our lives - and this Work usually testifies well through personal testimony. Blessings.
Thank you, there are different understandings of who Jesus was and is, whether He was a man born of a woman His Father being God, or the incarnation of the eternal Son the second member of a Triune God, fully man, and fully God. However, one believes Jesus was without sin from birth to death. There was no sin in Him, He did not commit any sin. He is the spotless Lamb that was slain for our sins. He lived a perfect life that no man has ever done or can do, before or after Him, 1 Peter 1:19 1 John 3:5.
God bless,
RLW
Part 1
I was relating to Gigi's insert of Revelation 13:8. It parallels with 1 Peter 1:19-21 "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
I don't believe Jesus had a mission to complete to "become" the unblemished Lamb of God. He existed in the realm of eternity in the God head before he took on flesh.
You are correct, I was referring to 1 Corinthians 15.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(JESUS, A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT) In John 14:6-7 Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jesus said this before he was crucified and resurrected.
Verses 47-49
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Jesus was the Heavenly before the foundation of the world, he didn't have to wait on the resurrection to be what he already is.
The resurrection proved he is who he says he is.
We are baptized into eternal life!
Thats his life!
Eternal has no beginning nor ending!
Running out of space, See part 2.
Thanks David0921. Concerning the Elect, my understanding from 1 Peter 1:2, is that those who are the Elect of God are such because of God's Foreknowledge; i.e. He knows beforehand who will be His and this of course, as the rest of that verse explains, are those who will be obedient to Christ & His Sacrifice and by the sanctifying Work of the Spirit. These facts are the marks of the Elect, the true believer - God's Foreknowledge of us already knows that to be His Elect, we would turn to the Cross & His Spirit would engage with us, and of course, we would first hear the Gospel & be convicted by its message.
You wrote, "God does not save anyone BECAUSE we Believe. But if and when God Saves an individual by His MERCY and GRACE alone, they will Believe. Our BELIEF, our REPENTANCE are good works that we do as a RESULT of our Salvation."
I'm sorry, but I can't agree to this, because how I'm reading your statement, is that salvation (i.e. the Spirit's regenerating Work in the sinner) comes first then the saved sinner repents & believes in Christ. To me, that is putting the cart before the horse. If a person receives salvation (forgiveness & regeneration) why would repentance & belief come after it? Surely, a sinner needs to repent of his sins first, calling upon the Name of the Lord to be saved. Even as Peter preached in Acts 3:19, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; this speaks of repentance & then conversion (regeneration), not the other way around.
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
The Apostle Peter wrote this letter to Christians, mainly of Jewish birth, who were scattered to other nations (mainly resulting from the great persecutions from the Jewish leaders/Saul: Acts 8:1). Peter calls them the Elect of God, i.e. those whom God has chosen to be His. And what criterion did God use to make this selection? The Word tells us that they, and us who believe, are chosen by Him because He knew beforehand (foreknowledge) all those who would hear the Gospel of Salvation through Christ & would respond in faith.
So yes, God has chosen each one of us who believes - He didn't force us to believe just so that we wouldn't nullify His wise choosing by Him making a mistake; but He knew who would respond & to these were granted the gift & privilege of being adopted into His family (see Ephesians 1:3-14 for a greater picture of this mighty Work of God on our behalf). Does this then mean that we don't need to share the Gospel with those trapped & lost in sin because God will save them anyway if they are called to be His elect? No, we must share the Gospel with all, because not only are we not privy to those who would be saved, but God has chosen to save some because when they hear the Gospel, they will believe by the convicting power of His Spirit, & they will call upon the Name of Jesus to save them from the awful penalty of sin & estrangement from a loving God.
"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious..." ( 1 Peter 2:7). If we truly belong to the LORD, Jesus is the most Precious One in our lives, for He has chosen us to be saved with so great & costly a salvation. Unbelievers might stomp on Jesus, curse & ridicule Him - but to us He is precious and our delight, & we can be ever thankful for being chosen to be His.
I understand this subject is hard to discuss in a short post, to cover all the many Scriptures, some seem the point one way and others the other way.
Do you think Jesus is only a created human being? Of course not, He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the anointed one, Jesus is our Lord, our savior whom God sent that shed His blood for the remission of our sins. Do I believe Jesus had a beginning the answer is yes.
Do you think that the Son of God did not exist before Jesus was conceived? If you think that the Son of God existed before the conception of Jesus, do you believe He was created?
Hard to answer, Scripture tells us Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God, Rev. 3:4. Jesus could not be a timeless eternal Son and be the beginning of the creation of God, God has no beginning. 1 Peter 1:18-20 Jesus was "foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you". If created means to bring into existence the answer would have to be yes.
Do you worship Jesus? Jesus is the mediator between God and us He is the only way to the Father and is worthy of worship and honor Him, Philippians 2:10.
Do you believe that Jesus is divine? If divine means Jesus is God my answer is no. Jesus is the Son of God our Savior, Messiah, King, in being those He is divine.
Hope this is what you were needing.
God bless,
RLW
I think this scripture is an important foundation to the sacredness of life and the holy salutation (by the lips).
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart feverently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" 1 Peter 1:22-23
It is the pureness of this kiss because such a change was made that passes that unfeigned love and it makes for unity by the Spirit.
This practice for those that practice it at all is hard on the flesh and therefore somewhat rare in occurence. It takes a little extra grace to move from the name and handshake and initiate the Kiss. So then the Holy Kiss is related not only to the sacredness of life but also to the very present Church of believers and the lack of resistance by grace by the flesh to heed to the spiritual.
My after lunch thoughts.
:)
I takes the whole word of God to understand any part of the word.
Romans 7
It takes other truths in God's to understand Romans 7.
If ones does not believe other truths in the word then he want understand Romans 7.
One truth that always has to be applied to any scriptures we study in the word IS:
Hebrews 4:3 .... the WORKS were finished from the foundation of the world ......
Revelation 13:8 ... the LIFE of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world .....
Matthew 25:34 ..... the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world .....
Matthew 13:35 .... things which have been keep secret from the foundation of the world ....
So, all this, the WORKS being done before the foundation, we come to this truth:
Hebrews 4:2 ... unto them was the GOSPEL PREACHED, as well as UNTO US ...
One of the truths of the gospel is your sins are forgiven, therefore their sins were forgiven from the foundation of the world.
The prophets declared this to them as well as us:
Psalms 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our SINS from us.
They didn't BELIEVE, as most today don't BELIEVE these words of God, God has not seen our sins from the foundation of the world.
So, what is this SIN that kept THEM and KEEPS us from God: his word tells us:
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.
So, what's God's solution for UNBELIEF and the mystery keep secret from the foundation of the world.
The SPIRIT of TRUTH, pour out on man at pentecost.
John 16:8 When he is come, he will REPROVE the world of SIN ....
John 16:9 .....of SIN, because they BELIEVE NOT ......
You can believe in God, and yet, NOT BELIEVE his words.
1 Peter 1:23 You are BORN AGAIN, by the WORDS of God ....
I'm out of characters.
Meditate on these truths and we will continue on to Romans 7.
God BLESS YOU!
John
John
What is our cross for?
To DIE on or cross.
Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the Lord is the DEATH (on our cross) of his saints.
If we die on the cross of Christ, the we were MARRIED to him in his RESURRECTION.
1 Corinthians 15:43 .... raised in GLORY .....
1 Peter 1:21 WE by him (Christ) do BELIEVE in God, who raised him from the dead, and GAVE him GLORY....
John 17:22 And the GLORY thou GAVEST ME, I have GIVEN them, that as we are ONE, they may BE ONE in us.
There was ONLY ONE BODY raise at the RESURRECTION of Christ.
Ephesians 4:4 .....ONE body .......
1 Corinthians 12:27 ..... ye are the BODY of Christ ......
Ezekiel 36:26 A NEW HEART will I give you .....
1 Corinthians 2:16 .... ye have the MIND of Christ .....
We are a NEW Creation, ONE BODY, with the heart and mind of Christ.
Psalms 107:31 Oh that man would praise the LORD for his goodness, his wonderful works to the children of men!
God Bless YOU!
2 Timothy 2:21 shows that we can clean ourselves so that we are not just vessels of clay but can be vessels of honor. Jesus tells us that he purges branches to produce more fruit ( John 15:2). We thus face that the lost are nothing but dead branches or profane vessels but we can through sanctification work towards purification and honor. We can perhaps see this also with the parable of the sower where some have the thorns of worldly cares snuff them out. ( Mark 4:18-19). A truly saved individual will pass the test of the trials which God places to test His own (see 1 Peter 1:7).
To succeed we need to be hidden in Christ ( Colossians 3:3) and truly be dead in Christ. Our old nature is impossible to put to death otherwise and will forever try to resurrect itself. God has put eternity into the hearts of men ( Ecclesiastes 3:11); yet that verse shows we cannot see to understand God who is basically beyond time and ourselves. Perhaps self preservation is a reflection that we are an eternal soul; thankfully God has the upper hand for those He has called and predestined will make it to glorification; and that for eternity ( Romans 8:30).
The concept of redemption or Kinsman redeemer is seen with the story of Ruth. Christ redeemed us from among men through His atoning sacrifice ( Galatians 3:13). He purchased us with His blood. He has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west ( Psalm 103:12 also read verses 13 to 14). We have passed from death to life ( John 5:24). His Spirit bears witness with our spirit as to our salvation ( Romans 8:16).
These and many other promises are things to meditate on and give comfort. We can only undestand such things if we are spiritually discerned; however and one of His children. ( 1 Cor. 2:14-15). Let us test ourselves to see if we are in the faith therefore ( 2 Cor. 13:5-6).
Agape.
These who did not believe in Jesus will not have the eternal life that Jesus says belong to believers.
Unbelievers will live forever just like believers but in the absence anything good and righteous and not live in God's presence although God will always know where they are and all that they will experience in hell.
Unbelievers will go to hell upon physical death and will enter the Lake of Fire at the final judgment. They will be alive in the Lake of Fire forever, as the Devil and His angels will also be. There these will experience eternally the wrath of God.
Believers will be in heaven and will not know anything of the experience of unbelievers in hell because we will not ever experience sorrow or pain in our life in eternity.
As to the transfiguration: ( Matt. 17:1-13 and Mk 9:2) it says that Peter, James and John accompanied Jesus up the mountain. Jesus did not appear to them. He was actually there and allowed His appearance to change to reveal His divine glory.
Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with Jesus. The Father actually did speak out of the cloud, the disciples actually heard the Father speak. Vs. 09 of Mt. 17 does say that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of this vision until after He is risen. A vision does not always need to be something that is not physical or actually happening. Mark 9 states that Jesus told the disciples not to speak of "what they had seen" until He was risen from the dead. So this indicates that the disciples actually saw this with their eyes as a present reality. 1 Peter 1:16-18 refers to the transfiguration as something they were "eyewitnesses" to, they all saw the same thing at the same time and heard the same things at the same time.
Because Jesus is God, He did not become less than God in His incarnation. He still possessed glory as God incarnated, but this glory was less than what He shared with the Father for eternity past before the incarnation.
I agree with the sleep until Jesus comes, because that's what the Bible says.
However, are these verses that say we'll not be saved now but later conflict with your view?
1 Peter 1:5 - "...salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
IN THE LAST TIME, not NOW.
1 Peter 1:13 "...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;"
THE END
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
DOES NOT SAY HE THAT ENDURE NOW, IS SAVED NOW. IT SAYS UNTO THE END, WHICH MEANS THE END, NOT NOW.
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."
PATIENCE. IF YOURE SAVED NOW WHY NEED PATIENCE. YE "MIGHT" RECEIVE.. ITS CONDITIONAL.
Above are 4 verses saying we're saved later, not now. Can you find 4 or more verses that say we're saved now and not later?
I'm with you, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God given to us. A reason we differ, preconceived ideas are obstacles to the truth. We all grow up in cultures where we inherit certain biased beliefs, values, and attitudes from our parents, teachers, religious affiliation, peer groups, and friends. When we study the Bible unless we can clear these obstacles, and beliefs when we read our sub-conscience mind will block the true meaning with the ones we have stored in our mind.
We must empty our minds as we know nothing, take out the garbage, pray, and let the Spirit of Truth show us the true meaning of what we are studying. We must keep in mind we get milk first and then meat and it can be years between.
I also believe in one God and Father of all, who is the God and Father of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ.
John 20:17 Romans 15:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 5:20 Colossians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3 1 Corinthians 8:6.
God bless,
RLW
You was saved from death 2000 years ago, when you were resurrected a NEW CREATION.
Christ (TRUTH) began revealing himself to you in 1979, this Revelation of "Christ in you" will continue until the angel ls sent to harvest HIS SEED.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (YOU) DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the CHILDREN of the RESURRECTION.
You are now in the birth pains of being born again.
Christ revealing who you are IN HIM.
1 Peter 1:23 Being BORN AGAIN ..... by the WORD(s) of GOD ...... TRUTH ......
Revelation 12:2 .... and she (YOU, Christ wife) being with child, travailing in birth, pained to be DELIVERED ......
1 Timothy 2:14 .... but the woman, being deceived (by a carnal mind) was in the TRANSGRESSION ....
1 Timothy 2:15 ..... she shall BE SAVED IN CHILDBEARING ...
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron....
Philippians 2:5 Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form (image) of God, thought it not robbery to equal to God.
1 Corinthians 2:16 ....we have the MIND of CHRIST ....
Romans 8:29 .... being predestinated (by the resurrection of Christ) to be conformed to his image .....
Revelation 2:26 And to him that overcometh (deception) and keepeth MY WORKS, to him will I give power over the nations .....
God bless you
I'd like to spend a little extra time on this introduction because Peter, who wrote 1 & 2 Peter, there's more information about him than any other apostle. There are some interesting things about Peter in the scriptures.
Peter, in all of his quotes from the Old Testament, he quoted the Septuagint. He did not quote the Hebrew. Peter himself grew up and was raised in a Greek village. He knew the Greek language and wrote in the KOINE Greek of the New Testament.
NOW FOR THE INTRODUCTION TO BOTH 1ST AND 2ND PETER:
I. FIRST AND SECOND PETER IN THE NEW TESTAMENT:
First and Second Peter are part of a collection of books in the New Testament called The Jewish Literature. The Jewish Literature begins with the Book of Hebrews and continues through to the end of the Book of Revelation.
II. THE AUTHOR:
The Writer of I & II Peter is Peter, as introduced to us in 1 Peter 1:1. There is more information known about Peter than any other Apostle.
Peter's original name in the Bible is Simon. In Hebrew he is known as Simeon. Simeon and Simon mean the same thing, same person.
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34 John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28 John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10 Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18 Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21 Matt. 12:50 John 20:17 2 Cor. 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:16 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
God bless,
RLW
OT gospel was the law of Moses
Hebrews 8:7-9
To say that it was the same gospel, would be saying that the gospel of Jesus Christ is faulty, & we all know it not.
1 Peter 1:10-12 "of the Grace that should come" future tense
NT gospel is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, that sets one free from the law of sin & death
Who is able to redeem one completely out of sin. By the Blood/Life of the Lamb of God, who's blood/life purge out the old leaven from our very heart, & forms there, by His Spiirt the new creature,. Col 3:10 By God's command 2Cor 4:6 Who brings Jn 1:17 Who is ABLE cleanses, delivers & redeems to the uttermost to all that come to God through Him, Meaning in Spirit, not the letter.
Yet, I believe there were few in the OT, who's faith reach out into the NT
Remember, faith come by hearing & hearing by the Word of God, Himself,
David, son of Jesse, would be one, Heb 6:5 his writing speak of this Spirit of Grace & Truth.
What measure he received of it ? him & God knows !
in love & truth