Scripture tells us Jesus returns only one time, Zachariah 14:4 Matthew 24:30Acts 1:111 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Hebrews 9:28Rev. 1:7Rev. 6:15-16. When Jesus returns those who are chosen and faithful are resurrected to reign on earth with Jesus, Rev. 17:14Daniel 2:44Daniel 7:26-272 Timothy 2:12Rev. 5:10Rev. 11:15.
This reign on earth begins after the tribulation and the armies of Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and the ten kings/countries of the beast who destroy mystery Babylon come to battle Jesus in the battle of Armageddon, Zachariah 14:1-3 Ezekiel 39:17-22Rev. 19:17-19Rev. 16:13-16. In Rev. 20 we see Satan bound and sealed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Jesus then sets up the Kingdom on earth and we see the judgment of those in the first resurrection who will be reigning with Jesus on earth for 1000 years Rev. 20:4-6.
The 1000-year Kingdom will be on the earth, but it will be very different from the world today without the temptation of Satan, Isaiah 65:25Zechariah 14:16 It will be a time when Lord Jesus and those chosen to rule the nations with an iron rod so that all the promises of God be fulfilled, all the boundaries of land God promised Abraham have never been, Genesis 15:18-20Numbers 34:1-12 but they will in the future.
We know from Rev. 20:7-10, that there will be nations after the 1000 years that Satan will go out to deceive and bring them together to battle. After this battle, a fire burns up the earth and Satan is cast into the lake of fire, "the earth and the heaven fled away" The final Judgment of the white throne is not just for the lost, and all in this judgment who is not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20:11-15, Daniel 12:2Matthew 25:32-46John 5:28-29.
That's good, brother Bennymkje, may our Lord GOD bless us today and always, and give us His protection.
You know, our conversation is in heaven( Ephesians 1:3-8); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. By the way, The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death-1Co.15:26 combined with Luke 20:35-36. It is the Power, great mystery. Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Romans 8:18-19.
As is written, look up, and lift up your heads; your redemption draweth nigh. Aleluia!
Furthermore, the current time, the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, it is of resurrection - Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 11:15-18 - and we which are alive and remain - We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED(by the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD, self-executing), i.e. we shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air( Isaiah 60:8), i.e. to meet the Lord in the 3rd heaven, 3rd heavenly place in Christ( 2Corinthians 12:1-4), and so shall we ever be with the Lord. --> Would it be or will it be in the day 1335, the misterious biblical day, day 1335? 45 days after 1290 days? Daniel 12:12.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words- 1 Thessalonians 4:18 combined with Daniel 12:2-11.
Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing.
May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection, today and ever
Speaking of John the Baptist, JESUS said: Luke 7:27 - This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
And now? Who will be sent before JESUS's coming? Now is sent Michael- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12.
And what is the current mission of Michael in this world of Devil?
Now, now, don't you know?
He will do the same he did in Sodom and Gomorrah, of the same manner as he revealed it to Lot: Remember: He asked to Lot: Has you here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will DESTROY this place(NOW WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AS A WHOLE), because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord has sent us to DESTROY it.
And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, GET YOU OUT OF THIS PLACE; for the Lord will DESTROY this city (NOW WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AS A WHOLE). But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
Just in the last few weeks someone in my church had two neighbors die; one after a rather brief time span after a massive heart attack; another suddenly and unexpectedly who was much younger. This has brought an openness to one relative to visit church who previously was closeminded; and in the other case it appears the estranged husband of this woman is likely a believer and never divorced but remained separated after leaving due to her bipolar condition causing much contention and strife previously.
These opportunities were paved by this woman and her husband who is a deacon in our church who have tirelessly been witnessing both with example (visiting in the hospital and practical needs) as well as with the Word of God for a number of years.
This doesn't make the grief any less real; but evidence of the Lord at work in the situation is an encouragement to everyone.
Last night I watched a murder mystery related to "Kathy's Law" which basically a family whose daugher was raped and murdured pushed hard after her death for a law to get DNA on anyone arrested and not wait for a conviction for the law to allow this; and it was finally passed in New Mexico. The end of the show was encouraging when they finally caught the man who did it and after he asked for forgiveness the family accepted it as they ultimately wanted to see him saved. He is to spend the rest of his life in jail as should happen to have any stability in society in rendering due justice. This situation shows how no matter what happens we should want to see people saved.
Ultimately; of course scripture says for the believer we read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. Those who die in the Lord are in His presence and we shall see them in eternity after we are raptured or resurrected. I believe we would envy their state and they pity us
We are to be at peace with one another, forgive one another, have mercy on one another.
Just a few references.
1 Thessalonians 4:9
Ephesians 4:32
Galatians 5:26
Galatians 6:2
Matthew 7:12
1 John 4:7
However, we don't lie or deceive one another for the sake of peace. The truth hurts sometimes but it promotes spiritual growth providing that the Christ spirit is in the person.
BELEIVERS SHUNNING OTHER BELEIVERS.
To shun is to deliberately avoid something or someone. In the Bible, the word shun is applied to evil. Job 1:8, Job 28:28, Proverbs 3:7-8Proverbs 14:16. So, shunning evil is good.
There is scripture that promotes excommunication. Matthew 18:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 3:14. but do we do it for harm or Good? What's the intent?
In any case, it would seem that extreme forms of shunning, such as considering someone "dead," utterly ignoring him, or refusing to acknowledge his existence, go beyond what Scripture commands.
After all, Jesus said that, when someone is put out of the church, he should be treated as "a pagan or a tax collector" Matthew 18:17. In other words, treat an intractable offender as an unsaved person.
How are we to treat the unsaved? With love and grace.
The "pagans and tax collectors" need to be evangelized. We are to love even our enemies ( Matthew 5:44).
The goal of excommunication and any form of shunning is restoration ( Galatians 6:1).
The purpose of any type of discipline is to prompt repentance and, ultimately, to reunite our fallen brother or sister with the church body. Being officially ostracized from the church, the sinner might be brought to repentance.
When the man in the Corinthian church later realized that he had sinned against God, he repented and came back to the church for forgiveness and reinstatement. Fellowship with the Corinthian believers was restored ( 2 Corinthians 2:6-11).
Isn't it hateful to ignore or shun other believers?
Thank you for your reply, I understand archangels are high-ranking angels and are called princes and Michael is the only one in the bible who is called an archangel. Like in the military, the word would be given to the general/archangel and his voice is who the angels and us would hear. Michael is at the top ranking as we see in Revelation 12. I do not see an angel name or rank that could be applied to Jesus.
My understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the announcing of Jesus coming will be the actual voice of the archangel and the last Trump, whether it is Michael, looks like it will be, but I do not know. The question I asked Oseas, he seems to say Michael will come before Jesus, not sure of the meaning of that. I hope this makes sense and thanks for your reply.
For our conversation is in heaven, you believe? If not, come up here.
Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. From whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. (This is a process, a wor of our Lord JESUS, not a magic)
Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Ephesians 1:38 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Daniel 12:3 Take a look.
You did not offend me at all, this subject is hard, and feelings go deep, and many will not even discuss it because it has been a foundation of belief for so many years, and as Giannis said there are verses in the bible that can support different understandings. I am not one to say it is because the word Trinity is not in the Bible. I feel if someone says it is not true because the word Trinity is not in the Bible falls short and does not support why they do not believe in the Trinity.
Same as the rapture, another subject that has been discussed here before. I also do not believe in how it is taught but it is not because the word rapture is not in the Bible. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is caught up from the Greek word harpazo meaning to seize, catch up, snatch away. This can be translated into English as rapture which has the same meaning as harpazo. It is not the word it is what is taught that will happen.
Of course, we can't be like Adam was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned. But now, because of Adam's sin, mankind is born with original sin, human nature, the old man, but God removes that human nature, the desire to sin, with sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. That's why God's word commands us to be free of sin and then He made the way through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ for us to be free. His word says that the sin nature must be destroyed (*to put out of existence: kill) /crucified, (*to destroy the power of) so we can live a holy life.
*Miriam-Webster Dictionary
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
1 Thessalonians 4:1-5
"Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour."
The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.
But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.
Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.
Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
Hi Cheryl1655. The passage you read in Revelation 21:1-3 about the new heaven (sky) & new Earth and then the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, are events (including those in Revelation 22) that will take place right at the very end of earthly time as we know it. This account shows us the end of Satan & his influence on mankind, the end of sin & corruption, & the arrival of a complete renewal of God's original creation, with God in the midst. These are glorious visions which the Apostle John received from Jesus for those end times, and sadly the vision of all those who have rejected Jesus & loved to live in sin, hating the God of Heaven, these will go into punishment of everlasting fire ( Revelation 21:8).
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
He says this above and that not believing his opinion is "extremely dangerous doctrine". Interesting.
What matters is what God says, not one man's opinion, regardless of how loud he shouts it. I'm not aware of any scripture supporting his claim, but know of some saying the opposite.
1 Corinthians 6:19 The Word says our bodies are not our own, implying that it only temporarily hosts us.
1 Corinthians 5:3 - Paul says his spirit is present with them, although his body is absent.
Verses about sleeping awaiting judgment. The body is obviously dead, but the soul obviously is in a state of waiting.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
What are we: a body or a soul/spirit? If a hand gets cut off do we really lose part of our soul too, or is it just a physical appendage separate from us?
Many have out of body experiences- well documented in books and videos, where people have hovered over their bodies watching and noticing things they could not have noticed if they were actually confined to their body.
In summary, Biblical evidence and personal testimony evidence does not support that claim above.
God Bless You all, prayer request for healing. And prayers for each other that we keep on keeping on. I'll meet you all in the air.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (7 years in Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-21 Christ returns with His Saints and the Angels)
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Grace and Salvation and the Holy Spirit will remain. The Body of Christ is he who hinders, God said the Holy Spirit will abide with thee forever. Zech 14:16-21 speaks of those that are left, without the mark or and who did not worship the image will serve year to year.
Isaiah 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Is Jesus Michael the archangel? I have heard this from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Some say the angel of the LORD were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation, but Jesus is not an angel.
Michael is the only angel specifically called an archangel, Jude 1:9. Michael is the chief prince who stands up for Israel, Daniel 10:13,21Daniel 12:1. We see that Michael and his angels battle the dragon/Satan and his angels and cast them down to earth out of heaven with no place found for them anymore in heaven for them, Revelation 12:7-8.
We see in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 that when Jesus returns it will be announced by a shout, by the voice of the archangel, I understand that as Michael.
Jesus is the Son of God, our Lord who gave his life and shed His blood for us. Jesus's name is above all, Ephesians 1:21 including Michael. At the burning bush, it was the angel of the LORD, it does not say what angel it was.
Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
My understanding Jesus is not any kind of angel, Michael was probably the angel of the LORD we see in the OT because Michael is the chief prince of Israel and Michael will announce Jesus's second coming.
When is the Coming of the Lord in the clouds, the "rapture" in context?
( Mt 26:64) .. "Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven".
Jesus said He will be ((coming in the clouds)) in context!
( Rev 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh with clouds)); and every eye shall see him"...
He cometh with clouds in context!
( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) v15 "the coming of the Lord".
v16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout"...
v17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them ((in the clouds)), to meet the Lord in the air"...
We meet the Lord in the clouds in context!
( Mt 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation"...
v30 ".."and they shall see the Son of man ((coming in the clouds)) of heaven with power and great glory".
v31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds"...
The Lord ((coming in the clouds)) in context, Is Immediately after the tribulation!
The return of Jesus riding a white horse in ( Rev 19:11-16) says nothing about coming in the clouds. But v11 does say "he doth judge and make war". So this return is coming (to the earth) not in the clouds. v15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should (smite the nations): and he shall (rule them with a rod of iron): and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". This is not the return in the clouds in context.
This should be clear to all who seek the Truth, the return on the white horse ( Rev 19:11-16) and the return ((in the clouds)) in ( Mt 24:29-31) are not even close to being the same event!
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The Word is GOD, self-executing. Believest thou this?
Could not this man -JESUS- which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
Take ye away the stone. Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of GOD?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD bring with Him.(GOD is Life)
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:(According Daniel 12:2-3)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(the same cloud that was seen by the disciples- Acts 1:9-11), to meet the Lord in the air(in the 3rd heaven that will be established from now on): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(in he 3rd heaven, which will last a thousand years- Revelation 11:15).
The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely- Revelation 22:17.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
After reading two threads, which stated that "we could never love like God loves" I felt compel by Holy Spirit to correct this belief, that's unscriptural.
Paul states 2Cor 5:14
The love of God that flowed through him, he states in Gal 2:20 it was Christ that dwelling within him, living, moving & having His being within Paul, having His mind, heart & spirit. & where Christ dwells He brings His Father with Him John14:23 & God is love, he became an living expression of the Godhead, there's no way that in this abide abode that God love was not known, felt, displays in his life. Have you ever tried keeping your human love in? What about God ?
Jesus states in John15:10 "abide in His love"
We must believe that we can Ephesians 3:19 as we continue to grow in Grace in the knowledge of His will that
Hebrews 10:10 for faith Gal 5:6
1 John 1:14 perfect love experienced, is what John the beloved "tasted, seen & handled" 1John 4:12
1 Thessalonians 4:9 God taught them how to love as He loves
John 13:14 "as I have love you"
Folks,
To my understanding, Jesus prayer in John 17:21-23 reveals a union between the Spirit & Soul of our Creator & his creatures that unites us in such an wonderous way, that it took Divinity to imagine it, & the Son accomplish all His Father's heart desire. Matt 17:5
IN FACT, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 is a revealing letter from Paul the Apostle.
By the way, all GOD's people must remember Acts 1:11 - Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same JESUS, which is taken up from you into HEAVEN(into the 3rd heaven. HEAVEN? Ephesians 1:3 combined with Philippians 3:20-21 among other biblical references. Take a look.), shall so COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen Him go into heaven(3rd heaven, that is the next world- Luke 20:35-36. Take a look). JESUS was on Mount called Olivet in the day when He was taken up, right? and shall COME in like manner( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), and the SAME CLOUD will be there in His return, understand? For better understand, compare with Matt.17:5 and Isaiah 4:5.
What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand? The Word says: Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan.12:v.12 - Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!! It means: 45 days after the period of 1290 days. Get ready you all, as JESUS WARNED: Matthew 25: 6-13.
The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment. This occurs in their Soul, which then can NEVER DIE. But their Body has not yet become "saved" and will die.
So when the True Believer dies, their Body goes into the grave and corrupts; and must wait the Last Day to be Resurrected a Spiritual Body. But in their Soul, they go immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jude 1:14,15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
I do believe that Scripture does reveal that the Bride will see "that man of sin" before the Lord meets us in the air and calls up up with a shout...
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
See, it is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of the current world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching, and the journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last days and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt, on the one hand, in the first moments of exit from Egypt, we will se GOD fighting/ battling against the Enemy through His plagues and severe punishments, there will be only and only severe chastiments, on the other hand, GOD protecting His people to escape the persecution and violence of the evil ones, so will the last seven years of this present world's existence. Indeed it will be wrath against wrath, the spiritual environment will be one of fierce spiritual warfare - Revelation 11:18. Take a look. It all starts now with GOD's declaration of WAR against the Devil's world; What statement? It's in Revelation 11:15KJV - "The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Lord's and of His Christ (not yet, of course), and He will reign forever. For this cause, the NATIONS will be wrathed- Revelation 11:18, but GOD will wrath also, well, if GOD is for us, who can be against us?
By the way, Michael will be with us in the WAR on this last journey- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12:7 to 13. Take a look.
GET READY
You know: The WAR shall be/is against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.
The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.
Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.
So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.
Based upon what you are saying, what is the current condition of believers such as Abraham, David, Paul, Peter, all those whom Christ has saved and have died. Are they alive in their physical bodies somewhere?
How do you understand the passages in the scripture that clearly state these believers experienced physical death, and they're physical bodies were buried?
I do understand the Bible clearly teaches that all of these believers are indeed alive in their Resurrected soul existence, and currently residing in their soul existence with Christ in heaven, awaiting the last day, when they will receive their glorified spiritual bodies at the resurrection of the last day. That I think is very clear from the Bible.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The First Resurrection in Revelation 20 is becoming Born Again.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:14,15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
The Resurrection and Rapture of ALL True Believers (Jews and Gentiles alike that God will have saved throughout history) is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the one and only one Rapture spoken of in the Bible. And it will be on the Last Day ( John 6:39,40,44,54), which will occur IMMEDIATELY following the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. We are currently living in the period of the Great Tribulation. The Resurrection and Rapture are simultaneous events and will initiate Judgement Day when God will execute His Final Judgement upon all those that have not become saved, destroy this sin-cursed earth, and create New Heavens and a New Earth where in ALL True Believers will live and reign with Christ eternally.
There is no future salvation program for Israel as a Nation. And there is no Future Kingdom that Christ will establish on this sin-cursed earth. The Israel that God is concerned about is the "Israel Above" made up of all True Believers (a remnant from every nation) that God will have saved throughout history and will be joint-heirs with Christ in His Eternal Kingdom ( Romans 8:17, Hebrews 11).
The Bible is clear that the Resurrection and Rapture of all True Believers that God has saved throughout the history of the world will occur at the Last Day. ( John 6:39,40,44,54). This is when Christ will return to complete the salvation of all whom He has saved by giving them their resurrected Spiritual Bodies in which they will live with Christ eternally in the new heavens and new earth, which He will create as He destroys this sin cursed earth. This is also when God's Final Judgement will occur on all of the unsaved. The Rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Read also Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
I agree, Matthew does not mention a rapture of the church anywhere in Chapter 24. In fact, he never mentions a rapture in any of the chapters. You say that there is not rapture in ( Mt. 24:4), and that I am believing something that's not written over the pure Words of the Lord Jesse.
You are absolutely right about Matthew not mentioning a rapture in Verse 4, But you are falsely accusing me of believing something I never said. I never once said that any of those verses preceding Verse 4 mentioned a rapture. All I said was I believe the rapture takes place before the start of the Tribulation Period.
You go on to say that "The comment I made about the 7-year tribulation starting in ( Mt. 24:4) Would mean Jesus comes for the church in either that verse or the 3 verses before that."
Why would Matthew have to mention Jesus coming for the church in Verses 1-3? Again, you already agreed with me that the pains of birth (first 3-1/2 years) started in Matthew 24:4. So why didn't Matthew mention Jesus coming for the church in the preceding three verses? Maybe for the same reason that Paul, after speaking about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 didn't immediately speak about the Tribulation Period, or the wrath of God being poured out in the very next verses. He didn't need to, and Matthew didn't need to mention a rapture in Matthew 24-1-3 either.
Jimbob, our discussion on this topic seems to be at a stalemate. We are not going to completely agree with each other on this, so I see no need to continue on and I am ending off with this discussion. I would much rather discuss things that we can agree on.
Continuing with just a few of the Day of the Lord verses.
Zephaniah 1:15
Isaiah 13:9
Lamentations 2:1
Isaiah 13:13
Isaiah 51:22
Jeremiah 25:15
Revelation 16:19
Revelation 14:10
Revelation 16:1
Isaiah 63:1-6.
This is what Paul is telling them is not at hand. This is what we all agree on besides a few that the Church will not see.
However some see the Rapture in Revelation 20:4-6 sadly mistaking it for the Resurrection.
That would place the Church on the Earth during the wrath of the Lord that comes upon all the Earth.
When we take 2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;
Paul gives them the sequence of events in chronological order of what happens "AFTER" that what he reminded them of previously in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
That's why he opens up saying "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by "OUR" gathering together unto him," 2 Thessalonians 2:1.
Paul included them and himself in this gathering! So did they see the son of perdition? No.
We take 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with the following scriptures to pitch our viewpoint. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-15.
The son of perdition can't come while the light bearers is in the world. The Church! Who sits in the midst of the Church? Christ/His Holyspirit.
Scripture tells us Jesus returns only one time, Zachariah 14:4 Matthew 24:30 Acts 1:11 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Hebrews 9:28 Rev. 1:7 Rev. 6:15-16. When Jesus returns those who are chosen and faithful are resurrected to reign on earth with Jesus, Rev. 17:14 Daniel 2:44 Daniel 7:26-27 2 Timothy 2:12 Rev. 5:10 Rev. 11:15.
This reign on earth begins after the tribulation and the armies of Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and the ten kings/countries of the beast who destroy mystery Babylon come to battle Jesus in the battle of Armageddon, Zachariah 14:1-3 Ezekiel 39:17-22 Rev. 19:17-19 Rev. 16:13-16. In Rev. 20 we see Satan bound and sealed in the bottomless pit for 1000 years. Jesus then sets up the Kingdom on earth and we see the judgment of those in the first resurrection who will be reigning with Jesus on earth for 1000 years Rev. 20:4-6.
The 1000-year Kingdom will be on the earth, but it will be very different from the world today without the temptation of Satan, Isaiah 65:25 Zechariah 14:16 It will be a time when Lord Jesus and those chosen to rule the nations with an iron rod so that all the promises of God be fulfilled, all the boundaries of land God promised Abraham have never been, Genesis 15:18-20 Numbers 34:1-12 but they will in the future.
We know from Rev. 20:7-10, that there will be nations after the 1000 years that Satan will go out to deceive and bring them together to battle. After this battle, a fire burns up the earth and Satan is cast into the lake of fire, "the earth and the heaven fled away" The final Judgment of the white throne is not just for the lost, and all in this judgment who is not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20:11-15, Daniel 12:2 Matthew 25:32-46 John 5:28-29.
God bless,
RLW
You know, our conversation is in heaven( Ephesians 1:3-8); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. By the way, The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death-1Co.15:26 combined with Luke 20:35-36. It is the Power, great mystery. Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Romans 8:18-19.
As is written, look up, and lift up your heads; your redemption draweth nigh. Aleluia!
Furthermore, the current time, the Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium, it is of resurrection - Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 11:15-18 - and we which are alive and remain - We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED(by the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD, self-executing), i.e. we shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air( Isaiah 60:8), i.e. to meet the Lord in the 3rd heaven, 3rd heavenly place in Christ( 2Corinthians 12:1-4), and so shall we ever be with the Lord. --> Would it be or will it be in the day 1335, the misterious biblical day, day 1335? 45 days after 1290 days? Daniel 12:12.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words- 1 Thessalonians 4:18 combined with Daniel 12:2-11.
Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing.
May our Lord GOD bless us and keep us, and give us His protection, today and ever
Amen
And now? Who will be sent before JESUS's coming? Now is sent Michael- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12.
And what is the current mission of Michael in this world of Devil?
Now, now, don't you know?
He will do the same he did in Sodom and Gomorrah, of the same manner as he revealed it to Lot: Remember: He asked to Lot: Has you here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will DESTROY this place(NOW WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AS A WHOLE), because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord has sent us to DESTROY it.
And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, GET YOU OUT OF THIS PLACE; for the Lord will DESTROY this city (NOW WILL DESTROY THE WORLD AS A WHOLE). But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
Revelation 11:15-18. Take a look.
Be careful or else get ready
Just in the last few weeks someone in my church had two neighbors die; one after a rather brief time span after a massive heart attack; another suddenly and unexpectedly who was much younger. This has brought an openness to one relative to visit church who previously was closeminded; and in the other case it appears the estranged husband of this woman is likely a believer and never divorced but remained separated after leaving due to her bipolar condition causing much contention and strife previously.
These opportunities were paved by this woman and her husband who is a deacon in our church who have tirelessly been witnessing both with example (visiting in the hospital and practical needs) as well as with the Word of God for a number of years.
This doesn't make the grief any less real; but evidence of the Lord at work in the situation is an encouragement to everyone.
Last night I watched a murder mystery related to "Kathy's Law" which basically a family whose daugher was raped and murdured pushed hard after her death for a law to get DNA on anyone arrested and not wait for a conviction for the law to allow this; and it was finally passed in New Mexico. The end of the show was encouraging when they finally caught the man who did it and after he asked for forgiveness the family accepted it as they ultimately wanted to see him saved. He is to spend the rest of his life in jail as should happen to have any stability in society in rendering due justice. This situation shows how no matter what happens we should want to see people saved.
Ultimately; of course scripture says for the believer we read 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. Those who die in the Lord are in His presence and we shall see them in eternity after we are raptured or resurrected. I believe we would envy their state and they pity us
Part 3.
How should Christian treat one another?
We are to be at peace with one another, forgive one another, have mercy on one another.
Just a few references.
1 Thessalonians 4:9
Ephesians 4:32
Galatians 5:26
Galatians 6:2
Matthew 7:12
1 John 4:7
However, we don't lie or deceive one another for the sake of peace. The truth hurts sometimes but it promotes spiritual growth providing that the Christ spirit is in the person.
BELEIVERS SHUNNING OTHER BELEIVERS.
To shun is to deliberately avoid something or someone. In the Bible, the word shun is applied to evil. Job 1:8, Job 28:28, Proverbs 3:7-8 Proverbs 14:16. So, shunning evil is good.
There is scripture that promotes excommunication. Matthew 18:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 3:14. but do we do it for harm or Good? What's the intent?
In any case, it would seem that extreme forms of shunning, such as considering someone "dead," utterly ignoring him, or refusing to acknowledge his existence, go beyond what Scripture commands.
After all, Jesus said that, when someone is put out of the church, he should be treated as "a pagan or a tax collector" Matthew 18:17. In other words, treat an intractable offender as an unsaved person.
How are we to treat the unsaved? With love and grace.
The "pagans and tax collectors" need to be evangelized. We are to love even our enemies ( Matthew 5:44).
The goal of excommunication and any form of shunning is restoration ( Galatians 6:1).
The purpose of any type of discipline is to prompt repentance and, ultimately, to reunite our fallen brother or sister with the church body. Being officially ostracized from the church, the sinner might be brought to repentance.
When the man in the Corinthian church later realized that he had sinned against God, he repented and came back to the church for forgiveness and reinstatement. Fellowship with the Corinthian believers was restored ( 2 Corinthians 2:6-11).
Isn't it hateful to ignore or shun other believers?
See part 4.
Thank you for your reply, I understand archangels are high-ranking angels and are called princes and Michael is the only one in the bible who is called an archangel. Like in the military, the word would be given to the general/archangel and his voice is who the angels and us would hear. Michael is at the top ranking as we see in Revelation 12. I do not see an angel name or rank that could be applied to Jesus.
My understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the announcing of Jesus coming will be the actual voice of the archangel and the last Trump, whether it is Michael, looks like it will be, but I do not know. The question I asked Oseas, he seems to say Michael will come before Jesus, not sure of the meaning of that. I hope this makes sense and thanks for your reply.
God bless,
RLW
Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. From whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. (This is a process, a wor of our Lord JESUS, not a magic)
Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Ephesians 1:38 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Daniel 12:3 Take a look.
You did not offend me at all, this subject is hard, and feelings go deep, and many will not even discuss it because it has been a foundation of belief for so many years, and as Giannis said there are verses in the bible that can support different understandings. I am not one to say it is because the word Trinity is not in the Bible. I feel if someone says it is not true because the word Trinity is not in the Bible falls short and does not support why they do not believe in the Trinity.
Same as the rapture, another subject that has been discussed here before. I also do not believe in how it is taught but it is not because the word rapture is not in the Bible. In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, it is caught up from the Greek word harpazo meaning to seize, catch up, snatch away. This can be translated into English as rapture which has the same meaning as harpazo. It is not the word it is what is taught that will happen.
Thank you and God bless,
RLW
*Miriam-Webster Dictionary
1 John 3:4
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
1 Thessalonians 4:1-5
"Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour."
The verse doesn't say that. Paul states his preference in that verse.
But in 1 Corinthians 5:3 Paul says he actually is absent in body, but present in spirit to the Corinthians.
Luke 17:37 says wherever the body is (deceased) that eagles (like vultures) gather.
Someone stating his preference to be with the Lord doesn't automatically invalidate all the other scripture in the Bible that says we will sleep (in death) until Jesus returns. But I know there's a strong incentive to believe it for funerals and because the phrase has been repeated so many times. No one skips judgment day though.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
It may bring some comfort to you that your daughter did not suffer for a long time, 2 and a half months later God took her in Heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-14,
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
You will see your daughter again and this time you will never be separated from her.
God Bless You and your husband.
"The meeting in the sky" is what I believe you're referring to as the Rapture, or 'the snatching away' (Latin, 'rapio'; Greek, 'harpazo'), and this is referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, which the Apostle Paul's was teaching to those Churches. Now this event (the Rapture) is a subject that has a whole range of views & beliefs amongst Christians, as we piece together what information we're given in the Bible, figuring the how, when, where, this occurs (or, likely to occur). However, to answer your question, my understanding of the Scriptures is that the Rapture ('the lifting up of the living & dead in Christ & meeting Jesus in the sky') is the next great event in God's 'calendar', where His saved, holy ones are removed from the Earth before His Wrath is poured upon the Earth of unbelievers (otherwise called, the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath (see Matthew chapter 24)). See also 1 Thessalonians 1:10 & 1 Thessalonians 5:8-10.
However one views this 'snatching away' & the Day of God's Wrath upon the Earth, the message to those IN CHRIST is clear: BE READY, Live lives pleasing to the Lord, that we may "not be ashamed before Him at His Coming" ( 1 John 2:28,29). GBU.
He says this above and that not believing his opinion is "extremely dangerous doctrine". Interesting.
What matters is what God says, not one man's opinion, regardless of how loud he shouts it. I'm not aware of any scripture supporting his claim, but know of some saying the opposite.
1 Corinthians 6:19 The Word says our bodies are not our own, implying that it only temporarily hosts us.
1 Corinthians 5:3 - Paul says his spirit is present with them, although his body is absent.
Verses about sleeping awaiting judgment. The body is obviously dead, but the soul obviously is in a state of waiting.
Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
What are we: a body or a soul/spirit? If a hand gets cut off do we really lose part of our soul too, or is it just a physical appendage separate from us?
Many have out of body experiences- well documented in books and videos, where people have hovered over their bodies watching and noticing things they could not have noticed if they were actually confined to their body.
In summary, Biblical evidence and personal testimony evidence does not support that claim above.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (7 years in Heaven and in Revelation 19:11-21 Christ returns with His Saints and the Angels)
Revelation 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in Heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Grace and Salvation and the Holy Spirit will remain. The Body of Christ is he who hinders, God said the Holy Spirit will abide with thee forever. Zech 14:16-21 speaks of those that are left, without the mark or and who did not worship the image will serve year to year.
Isaiah 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Is Jesus Michael the archangel? I have heard this from the Jehovah's Witnesses. Some say the angel of the LORD were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation, but Jesus is not an angel.
Michael is the only angel specifically called an archangel, Jude 1:9. Michael is the chief prince who stands up for Israel, Daniel 10:13,21 Daniel 12:1. We see that Michael and his angels battle the dragon/Satan and his angels and cast them down to earth out of heaven with no place found for them anymore in heaven for them, Revelation 12:7-8.
We see in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 that when Jesus returns it will be announced by a shout, by the voice of the archangel, I understand that as Michael.
Jesus is the Son of God, our Lord who gave his life and shed His blood for us. Jesus's name is above all, Ephesians 1:21 including Michael. At the burning bush, it was the angel of the LORD, it does not say what angel it was.
Heb. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
My understanding Jesus is not any kind of angel, Michael was probably the angel of the LORD we see in the OT because Michael is the chief prince of Israel and Michael will announce Jesus's second coming.
God bless,
RLW
( Mt 26:64) .. "Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven".
Jesus said He will be ((coming in the clouds)) in context!
( Rev 1:7) "Behold, he ((cometh with clouds)); and every eye shall see him"...
He cometh with clouds in context!
( 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) v15 "the coming of the Lord".
v16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout"...
v17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them ((in the clouds)), to meet the Lord in the air"...
We meet the Lord in the clouds in context!
( Mt 24:29-31) v29 "Immediately after the tribulation"...
v30 ".."and they shall see the Son of man ((coming in the clouds)) of heaven with power and great glory".
v31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds"...
The Lord ((coming in the clouds)) in context, Is Immediately after the tribulation!
The return of Jesus riding a white horse in ( Rev 19:11-16) says nothing about coming in the clouds. But v11 does say "he doth judge and make war". So this return is coming (to the earth) not in the clouds. v15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should (smite the nations): and he shall (rule them with a rod of iron): and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". This is not the return in the clouds in context.
This should be clear to all who seek the Truth, the return on the white horse ( Rev 19:11-16) and the return ((in the clouds)) in ( Mt 24:29-31) are not even close to being the same event!
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The Word is GOD, self-executing. Believest thou this?
Could not this man -JESUS- which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
Take ye away the stone. Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of GOD?
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD bring with Him.(GOD is Life)
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:(According Daniel 12:2-3)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds(the same cloud that was seen by the disciples- Acts 1:9-11), to meet the Lord in the air(in the 3rd heaven that will be established from now on): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(in he 3rd heaven, which will last a thousand years- Revelation 11:15).
The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely- Revelation 22:17.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
After reading two threads, which stated that "we could never love like God loves" I felt compel by Holy Spirit to correct this belief, that's unscriptural.
Paul states 2Cor 5:14
The love of God that flowed through him, he states in Gal 2:20 it was Christ that dwelling within him, living, moving & having His being within Paul, having His mind, heart & spirit. & where Christ dwells He brings His Father with Him John14:23 & God is love, he became an living expression of the Godhead, there's no way that in this abide abode that God love was not known, felt, displays in his life. Have you ever tried keeping your human love in? What about God ?
Jesus states in John15:10 "abide in His love"
We must believe that we can Ephesians 3:19 as we continue to grow in Grace in the knowledge of His will that
Hebrews 10:10 for faith Gal 5:6
1 John 1:14 perfect love experienced, is what John the beloved "tasted, seen & handled" 1John 4:12
1 Thessalonians 4:9 God taught them how to love as He loves
John 13:14 "as I have love you"
Folks,
To my understanding, Jesus prayer in John 17:21-23 reveals a union between the Spirit & Soul of our Creator & his creatures that unites us in such an wonderous way, that it took Divinity to imagine it, & the Son accomplish all His Father's heart desire. Matt 17:5
Jeremiah 32:38-41 Love never fails.
IN FACT, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 is a revealing letter from Paul the Apostle.
By the way, all GOD's people must remember Acts 1:11 - Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same JESUS, which is taken up from you into HEAVEN(into the 3rd heaven. HEAVEN? Ephesians 1:3 combined with Philippians 3:20-21 among other biblical references. Take a look.), shall so COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen Him go into heaven(3rd heaven, that is the next world- Luke 20:35-36. Take a look). JESUS was on Mount called Olivet in the day when He was taken up, right? and shall COME in like manner( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), and the SAME CLOUD will be there in His return, understand? For better understand, compare with Matt.17:5 and Isaiah 4:5.
What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand? The Word says: Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan.12:v.12 - Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day 1.335. Hallelujaaah!!! It means: 45 days after the period of 1290 days. Get ready you all, as JESUS WARNED: Matthew 25: 6-13.
The Bible is very clear that when Christ applies His Salvation to one of His Elect and they become "saved", they become Born Again, they are given ETERNAL LIFE at that moment. This occurs in their Soul, which then can NEVER DIE. But their Body has not yet become "saved" and will die.
So when the True Believer dies, their Body goes into the grave and corrupts; and must wait the Last Day to be Resurrected a Spiritual Body. But in their Soul, they go immediately to be with Christ in Heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at HOME in the body, we are ABSENT from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jude 1:14,15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, THE LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Thank you for your reply.
See, it is very important to meditate on our last days of existence in this current system of the current world, not because we are going to die, quite the contrary, it is because we will live, we will be alive in these last seven years of the Devil's world, this last period of time of the current world are approaching, and the journey of all believers, prepared or no, for the last days and for the last spiritual sufferings of terrestrial life, it will be similar to the departure of the Hebrew people from Egypt, on the one hand, in the first moments of exit from Egypt, we will se GOD fighting/ battling against the Enemy through His plagues and severe punishments, there will be only and only severe chastiments, on the other hand, GOD protecting His people to escape the persecution and violence of the evil ones, so will the last seven years of this present world's existence. Indeed it will be wrath against wrath, the spiritual environment will be one of fierce spiritual warfare - Revelation 11:18. Take a look. It all starts now with GOD's declaration of WAR against the Devil's world; What statement? It's in Revelation 11:15KJV - "The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the Lord's and of His Christ (not yet, of course), and He will reign forever. For this cause, the NATIONS will be wrathed- Revelation 11:18, but GOD will wrath also, well, if GOD is for us, who can be against us?
By the way, Michael will be with us in the WAR on this last journey- Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 12:7 to 13. Take a look.
GET READY
You know: The WAR shall be/is against three unclean spirits like frogs- Revelation 16:13-15. Why frogs?
GET READY
Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
Some of those questions may be answered in God's Word.
The purpose of my original question posted is to collect verses and I still only have 1 supporting salvation now which is the one I found. Of the verses posted I don't see any saying we're saved immediately on earth before judgment. Some cited being born again and being a new creature which are great verses but being transformed is not salvation.
Simply evaluating this on a Biblical support basis there are far more verses supporting future salvation instead of the present one people commonly cite. I believe I listed 7 to 1 before and I found more that support future too, so it might be 10 to 1.
So if there are no other verses supporting this why does a majority of believers believe in something so hardly supported by the Bible? Could it originate from cultural factors? Funerals for example- often people try to comfort others by saying they're in heaven right now despite Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.
Just because there are questions does the questions themselves do not invalidate the truth of God's Word. God bless.
Based upon what you are saying, what is the current condition of believers such as Abraham, David, Paul, Peter, all those whom Christ has saved and have died. Are they alive in their physical bodies somewhere?
How do you understand the passages in the scripture that clearly state these believers experienced physical death, and they're physical bodies were buried?
I do understand the Bible clearly teaches that all of these believers are indeed alive in their Resurrected soul existence, and currently residing in their soul existence with Christ in heaven, awaiting the last day, when they will receive their glorified spiritual bodies at the resurrection of the last day. That I think is very clear from the Bible.
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The First Resurrection in Revelation 20 is becoming Born Again.
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Jude 1:14,15
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the one and only one Rapture spoken of in the Bible. And it will be on the Last Day ( John 6:39,40,44,54), which will occur IMMEDIATELY following the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. We are currently living in the period of the Great Tribulation. The Resurrection and Rapture are simultaneous events and will initiate Judgement Day when God will execute His Final Judgement upon all those that have not become saved, destroy this sin-cursed earth, and create New Heavens and a New Earth where in ALL True Believers will live and reign with Christ eternally.
There is no future salvation program for Israel as a Nation. And there is no Future Kingdom that Christ will establish on this sin-cursed earth. The Israel that God is concerned about is the "Israel Above" made up of all True Believers (a remnant from every nation) that God will have saved throughout history and will be joint-heirs with Christ in His Eternal Kingdom ( Romans 8:17, Hebrews 11).
The Bible is clear that the Resurrection and Rapture of all True Believers that God has saved throughout the history of the world will occur at the Last Day. ( John 6:39,40,44,54). This is when Christ will return to complete the salvation of all whom He has saved by giving them their resurrected Spiritual Bodies in which they will live with Christ eternally in the new heavens and new earth, which He will create as He destroys this sin cursed earth. This is also when God's Final Judgement will occur on all of the unsaved. The Rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Read also Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
Jimbob,
I agree, Matthew does not mention a rapture of the church anywhere in Chapter 24. In fact, he never mentions a rapture in any of the chapters. You say that there is not rapture in ( Mt. 24:4), and that I am believing something that's not written over the pure Words of the Lord Jesse.
You are absolutely right about Matthew not mentioning a rapture in Verse 4, But you are falsely accusing me of believing something I never said. I never once said that any of those verses preceding Verse 4 mentioned a rapture. All I said was I believe the rapture takes place before the start of the Tribulation Period.
You go on to say that "The comment I made about the 7-year tribulation starting in ( Mt. 24:4) Would mean Jesus comes for the church in either that verse or the 3 verses before that."
Why would Matthew have to mention Jesus coming for the church in Verses 1-3? Again, you already agreed with me that the pains of birth (first 3-1/2 years) started in Matthew 24:4. So why didn't Matthew mention Jesus coming for the church in the preceding three verses? Maybe for the same reason that Paul, after speaking about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 didn't immediately speak about the Tribulation Period, or the wrath of God being poured out in the very next verses. He didn't need to, and Matthew didn't need to mention a rapture in Matthew 24-1-3 either.
Jimbob, our discussion on this topic seems to be at a stalemate. We are not going to completely agree with each other on this, so I see no need to continue on and I am ending off with this discussion. I would much rather discuss things that we can agree on.
God Bless!
Part 2.
Continuing with just a few of the Day of the Lord verses.
Zephaniah 1:15
Isaiah 13:9
Lamentations 2:1
Isaiah 13:13
Isaiah 51:22
Jeremiah 25:15
Revelation 16:19
Revelation 14:10
Revelation 16:1
Isaiah 63:1-6.
This is what Paul is telling them is not at hand. This is what we all agree on besides a few that the Church will not see.
However some see the Rapture in Revelation 20:4-6 sadly mistaking it for the Resurrection.
That would place the Church on the Earth during the wrath of the Lord that comes upon all the Earth.
When we take 2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition;
Paul gives them the sequence of events in chronological order of what happens "AFTER" that what he reminded them of previously in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
That's why he opens up saying "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by "OUR" gathering together unto him," 2 Thessalonians 2:1.
Paul included them and himself in this gathering! So did they see the son of perdition? No.
We take 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with the following scriptures to pitch our viewpoint. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-15.
The son of perdition can't come while the light bearers is in the world. The Church! Who sits in the midst of the Church? Christ/His Holyspirit.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.
God bless.