Discuss 2 Samuel 21

As always Jimbob, Blessings,

Conclusion on my reply on the David and Goliath issue in 2 Samuel 21:19: and I quote the text note, "l 19" (referring to the word Jaare-Oregim) "Or son of Jair the weaver." "m 19 Hebrew and Septuagant; 1 Chron. 20:5 son of Jair killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath."

the footnote: "Elhanan...... killed Goliath. See NIV text note" (above paragraph). "Since it is clear from 1 Sa 17 that David killed Goliath, an earlier copyist probably misread the Hebrew for "Lamhi the brother of" (see 1 Ch 20:5) "as the Bethlehemite" (in Hebrew the word for "killed" stands first in the clause). Jaare Oregim. The Hebrew for "Oregim" also occurs at the end of the verse, where it is translated "weavers." An earlier copyist probably inserted it in the name by mistake, since 1 Ch.20:5 reads "Jair" (apparently correctly) instead of "Jaare-Oregim."

What I'm perceiving is that the KJV writers added "the brother of" because it obviously didn't make sense in the original writings, or those that the KJV copyist/s were translating from, that David AND his brother killed Goliath at different times. Actually, it was the NIV writers who put forth the effort , made evident by the text and footnotes, to clear up the matter. I don't see anything purposely deceptive here that warrants the term "corrupt," in regards to the NIV.



Yet, I could be totally off the mark here, since I'm not, and don't claim to be an authority in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc; nor one who desires to decipher nearly every word or passage, for that matter, from the Bible; not my gift. I do though, genuinely appreciate and am grateful for those who do. I've learned much from you. Sincere thanks, and I encourage you to continue this gift you've been blessed with.

When time allows I'll try to address the issue you brought to attention from Mark.

Peace

Blessings Jimbob,

To clarify something, I have also a King James Bible which I use.

To get the point of answering your questions: My KJV says in 1 Samuel 17:49, "And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slang it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead, that the stone sunk into his forehead; and he fell upon his face to the earth." The word "it" has a different font, meaning, I think, it was added for easier understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The KJV on this site is identical.

The NIV I have says, "As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell face down on the ground.

I don't see anything so far that causes any confusion to the meaning as to what occurred here. David slew Goliath.

My KJV in 2 Samuel 21:19 "And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaerogim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. The words "the brother of" are also in a different font, as to give indication they were added for clarification. Also the word "was", referring to the spear has a different font.

The KJV on this site is identical.

The NIV says, "In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gitite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod.

So yes, there is some confusion here. But the "corrupt" NIV text note and footnote appears to clean it up.

I'll send it on another page.

Peace

One eighty thank you for your comment. Yes that does interest me.

I have never seen a modern version that says "yet". Try "Bible Hub" to see the differences in all Bibles.

I honestly don't think a "footnote" in a corrupt bible is going to be your best option for the Truth.

If God preserved His Inspired Words in the KJB, and He did.

That means all modern version bibles are corrupt, (they are not sound doctrine) as in ( 2 Tim 4:3-4)

I am just a little curious One eighty if you don't mind answering a couple of questions about your Niv bible,

1st. In your Niv bible (who killed Goliath) in ( 2 Samuel 21:19)?

2nd. Was the (scripture fulfilled) in ( Mark 15:28) in your Niv bible?

Thank you One eighty.

Blessings to you.

Goliath was six cubits and a span.

2 Samuel 21:15-22 gives you the answer to the rest of those questions.

1 Chronicles 20:4-7

Goliath had four brothers:

1. Ishbibenob

- A Giant, age unknown

- Had a 300 shekles of brass weighted spear

- Had a new sword and was going to kill David with it

- Killed by Abishai

2. Saph (Sippai)

- A Giant, age unknown

- Killed by Sibbechai

3. Lahmi

- A Giant, age unknown

- Spear staff was like a weavers beam (about 5 ft)

- Killed by Elhanan

4. Six Fingered (Unnamed)

- A Giant (a man of great stature), age unknown (likely the largest)

- Had six fingers on each hand

- Had six toes on each foot

- Killed by Shimea

Hoped this helped, if you have any questions just ask me.

Hi Cheryl,

This is a tough scripture, the sons of God and the daughters of men. Some consider the sons of God to be the line of Seth and the daughters of men the line of Cain. Then if we throw in what Jesus said in Matt. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven, wow.

There is no need for angels in heaven to marry, they are immortal, and no need to reproduce as we will be after the resurrection in the kingdom on the new earth. Angels are called sons of God in Hebrew b'nai Elohim in Job 1:6 Job 2:1 Job 38:7.

Through scripture angels take on human form, they eat and drink Gen. 18:7-8 Gen. 19:3 and physically wrestle with man, Gen. 32:24. If they eat and drink would that mean they have all the organs of man on earth? Scripture tells us there are devils/demons and fallen angels on earth along with Satan but there is another group of angels. These angels are different, they are locked in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-7 Jude 1:6-7. We see in Rev. 9:11 this pit has a king, and this is where Satan will be locked up for 1000 years.

They left their first estate, heaven and in 2 Peter and Jude it says making them an example, (going after strange flesh), they corrupted God's creation Gen. 6:5-7. Even though there are fallen angels roaming the earth this set of angels God made an example to the others they will be locked in chains of darkness until judgment. We see the devils in Mark 5:9-10 were in fear Jesus might cast them down to the bottomless pit.

We see that this happened again after the flood, Gen. 6:4 "and also after." The description in scripture is clear these are not just tall people. 2 Samuel 21:16 Joshua 12:4 Numbers 13:33 Deuteronomy 2:19-21 Deuteronomy 20:17 Amos 2:9. This is just a small amount of information but may it will help in your study.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Shellon. I'm unsure which period of David's reign you're thinking of, but 2 Samuel 5:9-13 indicates that his throne was in Jerusalem, and he called it "the city of David". Even the king of Tyre, hearing about the greatness of David, sent lumber & workers to build this house for him. So, one could safely assume that David & his large family lived here.

Did King David's family ever live in his house?

1 Samuel 14:49, 1 Samuel 18:20-28, 1 Samuel 19:11-18, 1 Samuel 22:1,5, 1 Samuel 23:13-14,24,29, 1 Samuel 24, 1 Samuel 25:44,

2 Samuel 3:12-16, 2 Samuel 6:15-23,

* 1 Samuel 6:23,

Note : 2 Samuel 21, vrs 8 "she brought up" didn't say bore, begot, or birthed. 1 Samuel 18:19, looks like she "brought up" her sister Merab's sons.

Hopefully these are helpful.

Hi Victor Yes

2 Samuel 21:8

"the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite"

are they sons of Michal the daughter of Saul?

Waline A Anthony,

In Genesis 6:4 it talks about the giants, "in those days; and also, after that", We see in those days and also after that we have giants (Nephilim). We see when Israel went into the promised land God gave them a command Deuteronomy 20:16-18. The word giant is Nephilim, which is also in Numbers 13:33, giants after the flood.

The question this raises is, who are the Nephilim and how did they survive the flood? Were these more fallen angels that created more giants? If the Nephilim were indeed half-human/half-angelic then it may explain the many ancient religious views after Babel with demi-gods (half man half god), but we do not find it clearly in scripture.

Also, in the Old Testament, there is the Rephaim (or Rephaites), and the context describes them as giants. The name of these people means "terrible ones" also, refers to departed spirits whose dwelling place was the abyss.

Here are some scriptures that may help your study, Joshua 12:4 2 Samuel 21:16 Also read Joshua 13, 15, 17, 18, 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20.

We do find giants of considerable size. Is there any scripture that tells us where these giants came from? There were not just one or two, but there were many. The descriptions of these giants appear much larger than 8-9 feet tall, a small number of people today.

Numbers 13:33 Deuteronomy 2:19-21 Deuteronomy 20:17 Amos 2:9

Many struggles with there being giants but all over the world history records similarities of myths of giants, were they real? Whatever the case, there is the biblical evidence, plus written accounts outside of the Bible, that giants did exist.

Are the Nephilim and Rephaim the offspring of angels and human women that became demons and evil spirits after the flood that we see in the Bible? In the Bible there are angels which kept not their first estate, but left their habitation and are locked in chains of darkness until judgment.

Study for your conscience may this help, God bless.

RLW

Neville Stewart

There are two primary views on the identity of the sons of God and daughters of men. They were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain. The major support for this interpretation is Genesis chapter 4 describes the ungodly generations of Cain, and 5 is the godly Seth line and the righteous line of Seth.

Cain and Seth are both descendants of Adam and Eve so if the descendants of Cain's daughters were fair, so the daughters of Seth would also be fair so, godly vs ungodly would have to be the difference. Nowhere in scripture are the descendants of Seth called "the sons of God", but more as an adoption, "shall be my son" as Solomon and us today, who receive Jesus and are led by the Spirit of God are the sons/ daughters of God. ( 1 Chronicles 17:13) ( 2 Corinthians 6:18)

The other view is angels who left their first estate and mated with women. Angels are called sons of God in Job, ( Job 1:6) ( Job 2:1) ( Job 38:7). Some say angels can not mate because of what Jesus said in ( Matthew 22:29-30). But all through scripture angels take on human form, they eat and drink and if they left their first estate it is possible. Scripture does not give a lot about this; we have 1656 years from Adam to the flood in only 7 chapters of Genesis.

Scripture tells us there are devils, demons, and fallen angels but these angels are different they are locked in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit until judgment. ( 2 Peter 2:4) ( Jude 1: 6). The bottomless pit comes up in Revelation, another study.

Also mentioned are giants/ Nephilim/ Rephaim "in those days; and also after that", before and after the flood. Whether these were offspring of angels' scripture does not tell us. The description in scripture is clear these are not just tall people. ( 2 Samuel 21:16) ( Joshua 12:4) ( Numbers 13:33) ( Deuteronomy 20:17) ( Deuteronomy 2:19-21) ( Amos 2:9).

This is just a small amount of information, maybe it will get you started in your study.

RLW

Thanks for your input Chris. After to reading your post, it has given me reason for more thorough research. Thanks again.

What you read in 1 Samuel 31:4,5, does show that Saul & his armour bearer fell on their swords & were buried by the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead under a tree at Jabesh (vv 11-13).

Then in 2 Samuel 21:12, King David comes onto the scene. He willing to avenge the death of the Gibeonites, took Saul's children, except Mephibosheth, & gave them to the King of Gibeon to slaughter them to avenge the death of his people. This they did & then David, hearing of this later, came to where the remains of Saul & the others were & took them & buried them amongst the tribe of Benjamin (vv 12-14).

However, the apparent discrepancy about Saul falling on his sword or whether the Philistines killed him instead, can be cleared up by understanding that, Saul's wounding was as 'sore wounding', i.e. it was a fatal wound but that death would be some time in coming. Thus Saul hurried it up by committing suicide. But the Scripture tells us that the Philistines actually struck the death blow - Saul just finishing off the job, so to speak.

Something doesn't read correctly here, as verse 12 states that the Philistines slew Saul in Gilboa. How is that

possible when Saul and his armor bearer fell on their own swords back in I Samual 31: 4&5? They were both dead!

Does people who have 6 toe's today still have gods love Thank's and god bless you for your time

Abi on 1 Timothy 5:18

According to 2 Samuel 21:20-21, Jonathan son of Shimea David's brother slew the giant that had 12 fingers and 12 toes.

To add to my comment, I hope the previous comment was clearly understood for that specific section of scripture referenced. However if you were trying to study David's decisions that looked 'cowardice' or atleast appearance of.

1 Samuel 27 ,

2 Samuel 11

2 Samuel 15:14-37

Hope that's helpful in your studies

According to 2 Samuel 21:20-21, Jonathan son of Shimea David's brother slew the giant that had 12 fingers and 12 toes.

3 years famine: 2 Samuel 21:1

Michal was David's 1st wife: 1 Samuel 18:20, 1 Samuel 25:44,

2 Samuel 21:8-9

He buried the bones of the family he loved : 1 Samuel 18:1, 2 Samuel 21:12-15

& he had just faught the Philistines

Doesn't sound cowardice

Exhaustive mentally, emotionally & physically, yes

I still can't understand David waxed faint? Is that saying that his cowardice grew considerably?

Who are the Sons of God in Genesis 6 before the flood of Noah?

Sons of God (ANGELS) shout before the world began - Adam man came 6 days later. How can Adam shout before he existed?

Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 - Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the SONS OF GOD sons of God shouted for joy?

How can the sons of God be men since they were shouting for joy when the earth was created?

Adam man did not come till 6 days AFTER the earth was made.

Adam was a Son of God since he created him -

Angels are SONS of God since God created them and was their Father

Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN SON of GOD -

Believers DO NOT become Sons of God till they are born again of the Holy Spirit only in the new testament

So were all the SONS OF GOD of Genesis 6 the men who were ALL righteous

the DAUGHTERS OF MEN were all women who were ALL wicked and evil

So all the men were godly and the women were evil ?

Really can we believe this: all the men were godly and the women were evil

then the godly men and wicked women got married and believers and unbelievers had children who were GIANTS

so where are these giants today? Playing for the NBA?

2 Samuel 21:20 - And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.

so see any unbelievers running around with 6 fingers and toes?

then the Lord commanded all the they be killed? What?

No the fallen angels tried to corrupt the blood line of the chosen seed. that is why the Lord commanded the Cannanites be exterminated.

Nephillim part 1 Who are the Sons of God in Genesis 6 before the flood of Noah?

Sons of God (ANGELS) shout before the world began - Adam man came 6 days later.

Job 38:4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 - Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 - When the morning stars sang together, and all the SONS OF GOD sons of God shouted for joy?

How can the sons of God be men since they were shouting for joy when the earth was created?

Adam man did not come till 6 days AFTER the earth was made.

Adam was a Son of God since he created him -

Angels are SONS of God since God created them and was their Father

Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN SON of GOD -

Believers DO NOT become Sons of God till they are born again of the Holy Spirit only in the new testament

So were all the SONS OF GOD of Genesis 6 the men who were ALL righteous?

the DAUGHTERS OF MEN were all women who were ALL wicked and evil?

So all the men were godly and the women were evil ?

Really can we believe this: all the men were godly and the women were evil

then the godly men and wicked women got married and believers and unbelievers had children who were GIANTS

so where are these giants today? Playing for the NBA?

2 Samuel 21:20 - And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.

so see any unbelievers running around with 6 fingers and toes?

then the Lord commanded all the they be killed

1 Chron 20:4 - And it came to pass after this, that there arose WAR WAR WAR at Gezer with the Philistines; at which time Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Sippai, that was of the children of the giant: and they were subdued.

So were all the SONS OF GOD of Genesis 6 the men who were ALL righteous

the DAUGHTERS OF MEN were all women who were ALL wicked and evil

So all the men were godly and the women were evil ?

Really can we believe this: all the men were godly and the women were evil

then the godly men and wicked women got married and believers and unbelievers had children who were GIANTS
so where are these giants today? Playing for the NBA?

2 Samuel 21:20 - And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.

see any unbelievers running around with 6 fingers?

One of the dead was her son Mephibosheth.

There was 2 with name of Mephibosheth. One was Jonathans son, which was spared. The other was Sauls son born of Rizpah, who was turned over to be killed. Same names confuses us sometimes.

It's mentioned that she brought them up not that she gave birth to them.

I was cross refereeing the same chapter on another Bible version and i found out that Elhanan killed Goliath the English Standard Version but King James Version states clearly that it was brother to Goliath.

Verse 7~David showed loyalty to his oath by showing kindness to Mephibosheth. We want to honor our word too.

According to 1 Samuel 18:19, Saul married his daughter Merab to Adriel. The five sons that sprang from this union were put to death by the Gibeonites. Michal just brought them up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite: