26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (crucified), but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (the esoteric and kabbalistic false messiah- John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11) shall DESTROY the CITY (Jerusalem) and the SANCTUARY-> Revelation 13:2->the dragon, the esoteric false messiah of Judaism- Revelation 13:11 gave(will give) him (will give to the Beast of sea-ruler of Catholicism) his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority.; and the END thereof shall be with a flood( Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2; Revelation 12:15?), and unto the END of the WAR ( Revelation 16:13-15) desolations are determined.
27 And he (the profane prince of Israel that shall come- Ezekiel 21:25, John 5:43-47; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(covenant with the whole religious structures of the RCC-Judaism and Catholicism- Revelation 13:2): and in the midst of the week( Revelation 13:5) he- the profane wicked prince of Israel, the false messiah- shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease ( 2Thessalonians 2:6-9), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation ( Revelation 16:13-15), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
To understand the first seal of Revelation which is parallel to the " Daniel 9:27" covenant; we have to gain wisdom and understanding on what exactly the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 represents. We can see a similar concept here to the Mahdi of Islam; who is said to come this exact way on a white horse and makes a seven year pact (from what I can tell is in a Hadith rather than specifically mentioned in the Koran but I don't want to focus on that here). My point is the idea of peace through force or SUBMISSION. The point in verse 24 of Daniel 8 is also translated as causing "astonishing devestation". This would likely be the scenario where he takes over the 3 nations of the 10 mentioned in Daniel 7:8. That would possibly be related to a limited nuclear conflict but could of course be a type of "blitzkrieg" that is a sudden assault rendering enemies helpless. SInce this is a power struggle that could be the emphasis here.
These passages also show judgment by God; even in false peace. Jeremiah 6:14 and 8:11 bolster what is seen in Thessalonians about false peace ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The world shall believe in "THE LIE" in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 and the Jews will believe in another who comes in his own name as John 5:43 shows with Jesus warning His own people with what they indeed WILL do in the future. God will use men and Satan to do His will.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. ( John 8:35).
When we consider the state of the human soul as well as the angelic realm we realize that access to the heavenly abode is only for those who kept their first estate; as opposed to those mentioned in Jude 6 who fell away after Lucifer's deception. Such is the case as well for men; unregenerate men are truly slaves to sin ( Romans 6:20). We find that our freedom indeed puts us into bondage while being a servant of Christ brings victory.
It is tempting to include some verses from secular songs which at least admit to the dazzling display that Satan appearing as an angel of light uses to delude the masses. ( 2 Cor. 11:14). Since he can no longer magnify God's name; Satan and his minions can only appeal to the nature of man; as he did when influencing Peter to speak as he did about Christ ( Matthew 16:23). Men's thoughts are on self preservation; not sacrificial love. We want to keep close those who are closest to us; which isn't necessarily wrong in itself but is if God is subservient; thus we hate our lives and keep it ( John 12:25). Hence is the paradox of living in Christ and it will come to it's fullest realization during the fires of the Tribulation. It is hard to comprehend just how powerful the delusion will be mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11. GOD sends the strong delusion! As stated previously; the trumpet judgments still won't deter the world of it's sins; and in Revelation 9:14-21 after the 200,000,000 demon horde kill one third of all of the earth people STILL won't stop their abominable acts. Keep in mind this is well after the sixth SEAL where people at that time are still hiding in caves and fully aware of God and Christ on their thrones beginning judgment ( Rev. 6:16-17).
This of course will lead to the delusion mentioned in Psalm 2 and Revelation 19 where men come together at Armageddon and eventually try to fight God.
To know Christ and to make Him known is the theme of the Navigators ministry and correlates with 1 John and other passages.
This is a good summary of understanding the personal meaning of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for atonement as well as our duties fulfilling our part in the Great Commission.
I imagine most here know the necessary doctrines of believing Christ is a member of the Godhead and thus Divinity Himself who was the only one who could atone for sins (as the sinless spotless Lamb of God) by becoming a man as we are without sin and remaining so throughout His earthly ministry; then dying on the cross and resurrecting from the dead 3 days later. Finally; He is to return once again physically to rule and reign on the earth.
2 Timothy 2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2 show we should avoid the error of stating that the resurrection has already occurred or the day of the Lord is at hand. Matthew 24:26 states that the Lord hasn't come yet for those who say He is hiding somewhere and also states the likeness of His arrival as lightning in the very next verse. This should be enough to disclaim what Preterists state that the Lord has already come. Therefore I would contend that full Preterists that state this are far enough off in doctrine that we should avoid fellowship with them.
Assuming we have the essentials of salvation straightened out; there are many other warnings and admonitions in scripture such as testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith would involve ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). We need to accept that doctrines aren't just what is required to be saved; but also what is necessary to prove that we are bringing fruits worthy of repentance ( Matthew 3:8 and many other similar verses). We are not subject to the law in some sense IF we are truly dead to sin ( Romans 6:11) in one sense; because we have a new nature; but in the same token we DESIRE to obey Christ and love and serve Him as Lord; Master and Savior.
Thoughts on the evil entities and Satan finally getting God's justice
I can write my own song on imagining what it will be like with no Satan to deceive men to war and no demons to torment in the Millennium. Or a world living in peace under Christ's rule.
Whether we realize it or not the air is thick with deception; with demonic hosts in high places ruling and twisting men's minds and controlling the affairs of nations.
I live in a suburban area that is well policed and in a school where I haven't even seen a serious fight. I can't be complacent in prayer as there can always be a lone gunman or some unforeseen incident (we had one lockout for an hour or two last year with a suspicious person on the grounds). As far as I know there has only been one tragedy of a student last year run over by a car when jogging; I haven't heard of any suicides. We are warned with training to be on the lookout for such things along with other training. My complacency living this way and having enough to eat; etc. is something for me to watch out for; but also I am aware that people are perishing in nice homes as much as they are in the neighborhoods I would avoid even during the day near me unless anointed to do witnessing.
The verses in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 I believe refer to the restraining power of the Spirit as it works in the current church age.
God will do signs and wonders and protect His saints in the Tribulation as well as save countless multitudes so it seems apparent that the Spirit doesn't leave the earth. It is just that as Daniel states they will be overcome; but for now the gates of hell can't prevail against the church.
I truly believe that as bad as the Tribulation is there will also be a sense of relief for those who are His own because there will be no more time for the world to restrain producing fruit; in this time that means martyrdom. Those who die will join us in heaven at once; in spirit form at first to rise later at His raturn.
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our GOD in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (These sealed 144K of each tribe of Israel are the remnant saved of the condemnation and eternal perdition- Luke 3:7 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, among countless other biblical references).
On the other hand:
-verses 9-12 combined with Revelation 19:6-10
9 I beheld, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped GOD,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and Glory, and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving, and Honour, and Power, and Might, be unto our GOD for ever and ever. Amen.
Momsage, the question is:
Who are the great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stand before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands? And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
The FALSE MESSIAH will soon manifest himself in Israel, as JESUS prophetically announced, saying: John 5:43 - 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER (a false messiah, an IMPOSTOR, a liar) shall come in his OWN name, him ye (the Jews, and even many Pastors, Bishop, among others believers, will be deceived) will receive.
And Paul Apostle said: 2 Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and 9 -
9 - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Get ready
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
7 The mystery of iniquity doth already work (so, it has lasted around 2000 years, but the Wiched, the false messiah of the Jews, could not manifest himself yet):
only he (the sacrifice of JESUS) who now letteth will let(resists, antagonizes),
until he be taken out of the way(it will no longer be valid, GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, there will be no more salvation, but the Abomination of Desolation will be established, and eternal perdition.)
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man (YOURSELF; your carnal mind, where SATAN plays) DECEIVE YOU, For that day (LIGHT shined into darkness) will not COME, except there come a FALLING AWAY (from the lies and deceptions of your carnal mind in ALL MEN) and that man of SIN (the DECEIVED mind) be REVEALED, the son of perdition.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who (that man of sin, that man of unbelief) OPPOSESTH (truth and light) and exalts HIMSELF (his carnal mind) above all that is called GOD; of that is worshipped, so that HE sitteth in the TEMPLE OF GOD (the Lord God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE, not Jerusalem), showing HIMSELF (by the wisdom of himself) that HE ( and all his supposed free will) is GOD.
God Bless YOU as our Father shines LIGHT into DARKNESS.
Dear Jema: Judging by all the criticism it seems I have hit a nerve with many people. As for your question; if I didn't believe in the literal physical return of Christ then I'd be a heretic; or what is known as a "full Preterist." It seems one of my responses is indicating that Christ has already returned. I'll leave it up to the forum here as to my opinion on the subject-as for that i feel the line has to be drawn as to what is clearly spurious doctrine; for 2 Thessalonians 2:2 makes it clear this has not happened. As to the Rapture and such I would never disfellowship over that issue unless such contention came up when someone asks my opinion that I feel the Lord's will won't be done in communicating His Word.
I hope you have noticed that the Word is something and really the only thing that I constantly quote. Any reasonable conversation relies on it. I have discussed the subject of the Rapture before with numerous references from the New and Old Testament; with the basic principle being that God delivers from as well as through certain things. Such is the typology of Enoch and Elijah who were translated as opposed to Lot who escaped just as judgment came. My basic premise is that it is one thing to die as martyrs now and we CERTAINLY need to be cognizant of that fact as something such as the brave girl who was martyred at Sandy Run that it is coming here. The only thing different in the Tribulation is how demonic entities and God's judgments (which ARE immediately upon opening the Seal Judgments which only CHRIST HIMSELF can open) manifest. And as I've stated before the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at present but the saints WILL be overcome in the Tribulation. I will let you look up the verses as I have quoted them often. The worst time in human history ( Matthew 24:21) is something we haven't seen yet when Satan is allowed temporary control over the whole earth; God has to shorten the days or no one survives ( Mark 13:20).
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
the expression of the Scrip implies obedience,, for Matt 7:21 to enter His works that's been prepared for us from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 2:10 which is these works of righteousness of Titus 3:5 that comes to us by His mercy towards us.
What are His works, the first is 'repentance" God Spirit work upon one soul, convincing one of their sins, which springs from the spirit of unbelief, that comes from the devil, his influnece upon one's heart, & keeps one in his kingdom of disobedience & all who plead for sin & are convince we're not to be delivered from it in this life is of the devil, are deluded, deceived & believe a lie,
2 Thessalonians 2:11 their faith is a life & why? Because they did not choose to become lovers of the Truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10,11
I could go on with this vein of Truth that's Scriptural sound, with sound reasoning. His Spirit Witness in your own hearts witnesses to the Truth that's being reveal. the question is will you receive Him?
Friends, for the love of your eternal souls, & for the love of Christ soften your heart by Jeremiah 4:3 thorns, the corruptible seed of the devil & Hosea 10:12 the free gift, the Word of Righteousness, the incorruptible Seed of Rom 5:17 & receive Him
I do believe that Scripture does reveal that the Bride will see "that man of sin" before the Lord meets us in the air and calls up up with a shout...
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
I experienced the Holy Spirt immediately present in me.
I didn't find it in Romans 10:9 bc later found that that was for the Jews back in the transitional period where Apostle Paul is beseeching his brethren!
I didn't find it in 1 Corinthians 15 either bc later found out that was a gospel of Reproof!
But the Holy Spirit entered in after reading Through Romans & at Romans 3:24/25/26 Gods free gift to all AMEN!
Many seriously believe that they are saved but it's all like Pinterest fluffiness.
SO You need to protect your souls I seriously ask you to join the Firstborn school & fellowship absolutely FREE, to escape what is ahead! 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The mark of the beast will devour many!
And I can say I will meet those who take eternity seriously find out how to get in the book of life!
Revelation 20:11-11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Right. Very soon there will be TWO DISTINCTS MAN Beasts operating or reigning in the Earth in this current time of Apocalypse, time of the END( 1Corinthians 15:24-28.Take a look.) Let us be ready to face them with the Sword, the Word of GOD- Hebrews 4:12-13KJV-. As you said, they are:
1 - the Beast of sea
2 - the Beast of the earth
1 - The very old and serial Gentilic MAN Beast of sea - Rev.13:1-10- , has seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, and whose very ancient roots are described in the verse 2.
2 - The MAN Beast of the earth having two horns like a lamb, a false lamb, in fact a false and ruthless messiah, Rev.13:11-18 combined with John 5:43-47 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 and 9-12. Terrible. Terrible.
Let us prepare to enter and face the final environment of the last week of the Devil's world, and the establishment of the FIFTH universal Devil's kingdom, the Antichrist's kingdom, and also in the middle of this last week the Abomination of Desolation- Daniel 9:27-, this satanic Kingdom is represented and described allegorically in the feet and ten toes of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, part of iron and part of clay, according to Dan.2:41-45.Take a look.
In that fifth universal empire of the Devil, the universal empire of Antichrist, two satanic Beasts will be reigning on Earth, a Gentile Beast and a Jewish Beast, both represented literally in Rev.13, first as the Beast that rose out of the sea, rose from among the nations, from among the peoples, it rose precisely in Italy more or less 2.000 years ago still in the Roman Empire, and the second Beast, the Beast that will still rise from the Earth in this current time, precisely in Israel -Jerusalem- the holy city- this Beast will sit on his own throne as if he was God, claiming to be the messiah, actually an IMPOSTER, a false Christ,-Matt.24:23-, as JESUS warned us, and will exalt himself as if he were God, but he is MAN and not God.
Jesus didn't come to end the law and make it desolate. He came to fulfill the law and perfect it.
He came to end the Leviticus priesthood where they presented sacrifices that pointed to him.
( Matthew 5:17-18.)
They rejected their king "Which was prophesied" They made their own "HOUSE" desolate. ( A people without a King to set on David's throne )
What the Prince that shall come does is totally different,
In Daniel 9:27 he confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.
This is the same thing mentioned in Daniel 12:11, (The abomination that maketh desolate.)
This is what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:15, ( This can't be at the end of Christ ministry because he said it this abomination would be at the end of the world.)
This 3.5 period is called the GREAT tribulation and it's prophesied towards Daniels "THY PEOPLE, ISRAEL.) Daniel 9:24.
You see this played out in Revelation 12:6.
Let's look at who confirms the covenant for 1 week.
Daniel 9:26-27 reads "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....
The Romans destroyed the Sanctuary, Jesus is not their prince.
Jesus didn't confirm this covenant and cause it to cease at his death.
Jesus death BEGINS a covenant!
The covenant in Daniel is a totally different covenant the Antichrist will confirm with Israel and cause the sacrifices to cease midway through the 70th week/Tribulations.
We now are IDENTIFIED with Jesus death and resurrection.
Romans 6:3-11;
Yes, if we're truly indeed are "dead unto sin"
but if we continue in sin for life, as you have responsed to me, & believe that one cannot overcome sin in this life, than we're not IDENTIFIED with Christ death or resurrection. Consider what you're reading in Romans 6; It's speaking about Grace appearance within our hearts Titus 2:11,12; destroying all the works of the devil, Rom 6:14; by 2 Thessalonians 2:8; the man of sin, alais the son of perditon that rules the Adamic nature, the spirit of darkness who animates the son of disobedience. Daniel 2:22; for this purpose is the Son of God is manifested to destroy him, but what is that for those who continue in sin for life, but there condemnation.
Jesus name declares His works, Matt 1:21 not in their sins.
Christ has already come & that in Spirit, He told His disciples; Mark 9:1; Matt 16:28; over 2000 yrs ago, which came in full power at Pentecost.
I will not leave you comfortless, but you will see me again, that your joy maybe full, & Christ doesn't come alone, He brings His Father within Him, They became Ephesians 2:22; John 17:21-23; & they Micah 4:3;
Hebrews 9:28; is Titus 2:11; diffusing the fragrance of His knowledge in every heart. 2Cor 4:6 This is Titus 2:13; describing His 2nd appearance in Spirit. Who continually gives of Himself that Titus 2:14;
As for this son of perdition; it's the old Adamic nature that is rule by Ephesians 6:12; who's coming 2Thessalonians 2:9; this spirit works even deceive the very elect, who, we all must engage with within 2 Cor 10:3-5; Jesus says; Matt 15:18,19; for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so their within us. Think about this, we all have these thoughts spring up within us, 1 Pet 4:3; thus Jesus commands; Luke 14:27; The ones, Satan does deceive is explain, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; they refuse to believe the Witness, whom God has place within conscience. John 16:8; John 12:47-50; Jesus says, 8:24; Therefore were He has gone one cannot go.
Both seeds are spiritual, both kingdoms are within mankind.
This rapture theory John 17:11:15 "not to take them out of the world". But describes receiving 1Pet 1:5-9;The cumulation is the Baptism of the Holy Spirt, describing 2 Cor 10:6; resulting from Titus 3:5; by 1Pet 1:23; unto John 3:3; the chaff, ( old man sin nature is thoroughly purges out without a trace, Daniel 2:34,35; these earthen vessels, 1Cor 15:48,49; ) the wheat (new man created in the image of Him that created him) is gather unto the Gardener, we're His & He's ours, Acts 1:9-11; Daniel 7:13;
It's a spiritual encounter & habitation with the One true God, John 17:24; here & now, Acts 4:32,33;
Do you perceive the wonderous honor & glory of God's Great Salvation, on earth as it is in heaven.
Further insights on prophecy: Conspiracies vs fulfillment
The line of demarcation exists when we consider 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. For now; the gates of hell do not prevail against the church ( Matt. 16:18); but in the Tribulation or time of Jacob's trouble they will be overcome ( Rev. 13:7; Daniel 7:25). While we remain as salt and light the putrification is held back along with the final fulfillments of prophecies.
Ezekiel 38 is something geopolitically that seems to have aligned uniquely with Iran; Turkey and Russian agreements. As with anything else; those who look to the current war in Ukraine or any other conflicts basically are repeating centuries old patterns.
The downfall of currencies also seems to have been thwarted temporarily as of the last few days; apparently some small countries are utilizing the dollar more; and there seems to be both a new gold standard backed currency with the BRICS nations; and the concept of electronic currency concurrently happening; for now. Certainly there are harbingers of things to come. The recent lowering in prices of gold and silver (See Zephaniah 1:18; Ezekiel 7:19; and James 5:3) could indicate a collapse either just before the Tribulation and or during it (perhaps further enforced by Antichrist). To have the Mark of the Beast all other trade methodologies must be cancelled; I don't believe that can happen prior to the Rapture of the church in entirety.
Isaiah 8:12 reminds us not to call everything "conspiracy" that everyone else says is. The two dangers we have are thinking everything is an indication that the end has come; OR belittling the literal final fulfillment after all the predictions of the past proved false. Such could of course be argued with verses such as 1 Cor. 15:52 on the Rapture (Rapturo in Latin). Full Preterists think everything happened by 70 AD. Most think it was partially fulfilled; which again makes the most sense with a literal interpretation of the texts.
Romans 3:10,12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:there is non that seeketh after God.
Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
1 Corinthians 1:27,28 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER(AN IMPOSTER - Who's is him?) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Paul apostle prophesied about that IMPOSTOR, saying - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9 :
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (See Revelation 13:11-14)
John 1:11KJV - JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
Philippians 2:6 - 6 Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD:
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Sorry brother did not see your last post. I know we differ on this, as long as we inspire each other to study both sides we are doing ok. I feel the word antichrist has been used so many times having people looking for the wrong thing. This beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit, Rev. 17:8 we don't know what he will look like, the man of sin.
The word antichrist is not in Revelation, and where we see it in 1 John 2:18,221 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7 all are describing people or the spirit of antichrist, deceivers not a beast. There has been people from the time Jesus ascended claiming to be the Messiah and will deliver them from Roman oppression up to revolts before 70 AD. There was one in Acts 21:38 and some others and probably some today.
2 Thessalonians 2:4, which says this beast will exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. Above God, or whatever people all over this world worship, this will be a world event for people of all religions. I agree the deception will be great and he may appear to many as Christ or what or who other people worship. I am sure many will accept him as the Christ.
In Revelation, we have Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and fallen angels on this earth, all working against God, Jesus, and all who have faith in them, it will not be a pleasant time. From the time Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and Satan gives his power, seat, and authority to the beast I only see 3.5 years not 7. And I do not see anyone taken out only the second coming of Jesus. 7 years only comes from Daniel 9 whether that turns out to be true or false. Hope this makes some sense.
I agree The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed.
However that fits the antichrist and his mission. Anti here means "instead of" and it can also mean against.
The Jews is still looking for their Messiah till this day and that's the primary role of the Antichrist.
Jesus hints at this in John 5:43.
So let's parallel the notion with other scriptures concerning him.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 13:8-12.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
These verses along with Daniel 9 emphasizes deception by the Antichrist.
I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:
'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'
You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.
Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.
I appreciate your honesty in expressing your view regarding the Nature of the Bible. That view, to one degree or another, is I believe the view held in the churches of our day. And is the reason that we have such divergent views on so many critical doctrines among the various churches and denominations of our day.
The Holiness and Authority of the Bible has deteriorated in the churches to such a point that they have become almost unrecognizable in many of their beliefs and practices from even a few decades ago.
And because of this I believe we are living in the day where 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, and other end time passages are in play.
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to read and understand. He wrote it in a way that we must search it out in order to find Truth; and God Himself must lead us into Truth from the Bible as we apply the principles that God has laid out, not man. He wrote the Bible in such a way to not only reveal Truth, but to hide Truth.
But I am certain that God is in control and is working out His plan for this world in exact accordance with His Word, the Bible.
e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?
There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.
If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.
I was just emphasizing a portion of those verses that emphasizes everlasting punishment by the hands of the Lord.
( he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.)
Psalms 75:7-8. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.
God is Love but he is also a righteous Judge.
Torment is everlasting I believe because the heart of the wicked is everlasting and uncurably evil.
We have discussed my take on the Holyspirit restraining evil in
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.
I mentioned that because man has no Idea how evil he really is apart from the restrainer/Holyspirit.
When the restraint on evil is taken out of the way you see a picture of man continuous rebellion even in the midst of torment in
Revelation 16:8-9.
I believe you and I along with others have discussed this in the past and I know we have different views on this however we respects one another view.
I believe Sasha had opposing views on this belief and was heavily engaged in these topics and later suze. Perhaps they're checking in from time to time!!
Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).
When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').
Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.
2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).
The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.
I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.
Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.
What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (crucified), but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come (the esoteric and kabbalistic false messiah- John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11) shall DESTROY the CITY (Jerusalem) and the SANCTUARY-> Revelation 13:2->the dragon, the esoteric false messiah of Judaism- Revelation 13:11 gave(will give) him (will give to the Beast of sea-ruler of Catholicism) his Power, and his Throne, and great Authority.; and the END thereof shall be with a flood( Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2; Revelation 12:15?), and unto the END of the WAR ( Revelation 16:13-15) desolations are determined.
27 And he (the profane prince of Israel that shall come- Ezekiel 21:25, John 5:43-47; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(covenant with the whole religious structures of the RCC-Judaism and Catholicism- Revelation 13:2): and in the midst of the week( Revelation 13:5) he- the profane wicked prince of Israel, the false messiah- shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease ( 2Thessalonians 2:6-9), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation ( Revelation 16:13-15), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
GOD bless and get ready
Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
To understand the first seal of Revelation which is parallel to the " Daniel 9:27" covenant; we have to gain wisdom and understanding on what exactly the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 represents. We can see a similar concept here to the Mahdi of Islam; who is said to come this exact way on a white horse and makes a seven year pact (from what I can tell is in a Hadith rather than specifically mentioned in the Koran but I don't want to focus on that here). My point is the idea of peace through force or SUBMISSION. The point in verse 24 of Daniel 8 is also translated as causing "astonishing devestation". This would likely be the scenario where he takes over the 3 nations of the 10 mentioned in Daniel 7:8. That would possibly be related to a limited nuclear conflict but could of course be a type of "blitzkrieg" that is a sudden assault rendering enemies helpless. SInce this is a power struggle that could be the emphasis here.
These passages also show judgment by God; even in false peace. Jeremiah 6:14 and 8:11 bolster what is seen in Thessalonians about false peace ( 1 Thess. 5:3). The world shall believe in "THE LIE" in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 and the Jews will believe in another who comes in his own name as John 5:43 shows with Jesus warning His own people with what they indeed WILL do in the future. God will use men and Satan to do His will.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. ( John 8:35).
When we consider the state of the human soul as well as the angelic realm we realize that access to the heavenly abode is only for those who kept their first estate; as opposed to those mentioned in Jude 6 who fell away after Lucifer's deception. Such is the case as well for men; unregenerate men are truly slaves to sin ( Romans 6:20). We find that our freedom indeed puts us into bondage while being a servant of Christ brings victory.
It is tempting to include some verses from secular songs which at least admit to the dazzling display that Satan appearing as an angel of light uses to delude the masses. ( 2 Cor. 11:14). Since he can no longer magnify God's name; Satan and his minions can only appeal to the nature of man; as he did when influencing Peter to speak as he did about Christ ( Matthew 16:23). Men's thoughts are on self preservation; not sacrificial love. We want to keep close those who are closest to us; which isn't necessarily wrong in itself but is if God is subservient; thus we hate our lives and keep it ( John 12:25). Hence is the paradox of living in Christ and it will come to it's fullest realization during the fires of the Tribulation. It is hard to comprehend just how powerful the delusion will be mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:11. GOD sends the strong delusion! As stated previously; the trumpet judgments still won't deter the world of it's sins; and in Revelation 9:14-21 after the 200,000,000 demon horde kill one third of all of the earth people STILL won't stop their abominable acts. Keep in mind this is well after the sixth SEAL where people at that time are still hiding in caves and fully aware of God and Christ on their thrones beginning judgment ( Rev. 6:16-17).
This of course will lead to the delusion mentioned in Psalm 2 and Revelation 19 where men come together at Armageddon and eventually try to fight God.
To know Christ and to make Him known is the theme of the Navigators ministry and correlates with 1 John and other passages.
This is a good summary of understanding the personal meaning of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for atonement as well as our duties fulfilling our part in the Great Commission.
I imagine most here know the necessary doctrines of believing Christ is a member of the Godhead and thus Divinity Himself who was the only one who could atone for sins (as the sinless spotless Lamb of God) by becoming a man as we are without sin and remaining so throughout His earthly ministry; then dying on the cross and resurrecting from the dead 3 days later. Finally; He is to return once again physically to rule and reign on the earth.
2 Timothy 2:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2 show we should avoid the error of stating that the resurrection has already occurred or the day of the Lord is at hand. Matthew 24:26 states that the Lord hasn't come yet for those who say He is hiding somewhere and also states the likeness of His arrival as lightning in the very next verse. This should be enough to disclaim what Preterists state that the Lord has already come. Therefore I would contend that full Preterists that state this are far enough off in doctrine that we should avoid fellowship with them.
Assuming we have the essentials of salvation straightened out; there are many other warnings and admonitions in scripture such as testing ourselves to see if we are in the faith would involve ( 2 Corinthians 13:5). We need to accept that doctrines aren't just what is required to be saved; but also what is necessary to prove that we are bringing fruits worthy of repentance ( Matthew 3:8 and many other similar verses). We are not subject to the law in some sense IF we are truly dead to sin ( Romans 6:11) in one sense; because we have a new nature; but in the same token we DESIRE to obey Christ and love and serve Him as Lord; Master and Savior.
I can write my own song on imagining what it will be like with no Satan to deceive men to war and no demons to torment in the Millennium. Or a world living in peace under Christ's rule.
Whether we realize it or not the air is thick with deception; with demonic hosts in high places ruling and twisting men's minds and controlling the affairs of nations.
I live in a suburban area that is well policed and in a school where I haven't even seen a serious fight. I can't be complacent in prayer as there can always be a lone gunman or some unforeseen incident (we had one lockout for an hour or two last year with a suspicious person on the grounds). As far as I know there has only been one tragedy of a student last year run over by a car when jogging; I haven't heard of any suicides. We are warned with training to be on the lookout for such things along with other training. My complacency living this way and having enough to eat; etc. is something for me to watch out for; but also I am aware that people are perishing in nice homes as much as they are in the neighborhoods I would avoid even during the day near me unless anointed to do witnessing.
The verses in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 I believe refer to the restraining power of the Spirit as it works in the current church age.
God will do signs and wonders and protect His saints in the Tribulation as well as save countless multitudes so it seems apparent that the Spirit doesn't leave the earth. It is just that as Daniel states they will be overcome; but for now the gates of hell can't prevail against the church.
I truly believe that as bad as the Tribulation is there will also be a sense of relief for those who are His own because there will be no more time for the world to restrain producing fruit; in this time that means martyrdom. Those who die will join us in heaven at once; in spirit form at first to rise later at His raturn.
Revelation 7:1-4 AND 9-12, says:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living GOD: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our GOD in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (These sealed 144K of each tribe of Israel are the remnant saved of the condemnation and eternal perdition- Luke 3:7 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, among countless other biblical references).
On the other hand:
-verses 9-12 combined with Revelation 19:6-10
9 I beheld, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped GOD,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and Glory, and Wisdom, and Thanksgiving, and Honour, and Power, and Might, be unto our GOD for ever and ever. Amen.
Momsage, the question is:
Who are the great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stand before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands? And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our GOD which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Yes, who are them, Momsage?
The FALSE MESSIAH will soon manifest himself in Israel, as JESUS prophetically announced, saying: John 5:43 - 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER (a false messiah, an IMPOSTOR, a liar) shall come in his OWN name, him ye (the Jews, and even many Pastors, Bishop, among others believers, will be deceived) will receive.
And Paul Apostle said: 2 Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and 9 -
9 - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Get ready
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
7 The mystery of iniquity doth already work (so, it has lasted around 2000 years, but the Wiched, the false messiah of the Jews, could not manifest himself yet):
only he (the sacrifice of JESUS) who now letteth will let(resists, antagonizes),
until he be taken out of the way(it will no longer be valid, GOD shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness, there will be no more salvation, but the Abomination of Desolation will be established, and eternal perdition.)
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man (YOURSELF; your carnal mind, where SATAN plays) DECEIVE YOU, For that day (LIGHT shined into darkness) will not COME, except there come a FALLING AWAY (from the lies and deceptions of your carnal mind in ALL MEN) and that man of SIN (the DECEIVED mind) be REVEALED, the son of perdition.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who (that man of sin, that man of unbelief) OPPOSESTH (truth and light) and exalts HIMSELF (his carnal mind) above all that is called GOD; of that is worshipped, so that HE sitteth in the TEMPLE OF GOD (the Lord God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE, not Jerusalem), showing HIMSELF (by the wisdom of himself) that HE ( and all his supposed free will) is GOD.
God Bless YOU as our Father shines LIGHT into DARKNESS.
I hope you have noticed that the Word is something and really the only thing that I constantly quote. Any reasonable conversation relies on it. I have discussed the subject of the Rapture before with numerous references from the New and Old Testament; with the basic principle being that God delivers from as well as through certain things. Such is the typology of Enoch and Elijah who were translated as opposed to Lot who escaped just as judgment came. My basic premise is that it is one thing to die as martyrs now and we CERTAINLY need to be cognizant of that fact as something such as the brave girl who was martyred at Sandy Run that it is coming here. The only thing different in the Tribulation is how demonic entities and God's judgments (which ARE immediately upon opening the Seal Judgments which only CHRIST HIMSELF can open) manifest. And as I've stated before the gates of hell will not prevail against the church at present but the saints WILL be overcome in the Tribulation. I will let you look up the verses as I have quoted them often. The worst time in human history ( Matthew 24:21) is something we haven't seen yet when Satan is allowed temporary control over the whole earth; God has to shorten the days or no one survives ( Mark 13:20).
Pt 1
I haven't fully followed this thread but I do know the belief of the participants because of previous pass discussions.
Getting down to the root of where this thread has turned based on this topic.
The question is "Are there a place of torment that unbelievers go and are they conscious while tormented?
"I believe so" though you and Jema has presented a good argument in this difficult topic.
I also struggled with this in the past, taking those various scriptures alone.
However, when we consider the incomprehensible holiness of God and the incomprehensible wickedness of flesh deprived of God's Spirit where there is no repentance, I believe that God's everlasting punishment is justified.
CAN WE TRULY KNOW THE STATE OF MAN'S FALLEN CONDITION IN THIS FALLEN WORLD?
Can a ungenerated heart repent?
Note: Man can change his action, but can he change his heart, apart from the spirit of God?
I believe we find the answer in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
I believe this verse speaks of the Holyspirit restraining evil in the world showing God's patience until there is a certain number reached and God is going to say. Go get them!
This is a view I presented a few months ago and was constantly attacked by some while I was on vacation in the dispensationalism discussion.
Anyway, you see the condition of man's heart after the rapture when man take up war against the Lord in Revelation 19:19.
Also, the unrepentant heart is revealed in Revelation 16:10-11 "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Man's heart is in a state of everlasting rebellion against God-
Jesue said Matt 5:20
the expression of the Scrip implies obedience,, for Matt 7:21 to enter His works that's been prepared for us from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 2:10 which is these works of righteousness of Titus 3:5 that comes to us by His mercy towards us.
What are His works, the first is 'repentance" God Spirit work upon one soul, convincing one of their sins, which springs from the spirit of unbelief, that comes from the devil, his influnece upon one's heart, & keeps one in his kingdom of disobedience & all who plead for sin & are convince we're not to be delivered from it in this life is of the devil, are deluded, deceived & believe a lie,
2 Thessalonians 2:11 their faith is a life & why? Because they did not choose to become lovers of the Truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10,11
I could go on with this vein of Truth that's Scriptural sound, with sound reasoning. His Spirit Witness in your own hearts witnesses to the Truth that's being reveal. the question is will you receive Him?
Friends, for the love of your eternal souls, & for the love of Christ soften your heart by Jeremiah 4:3 thorns, the corruptible seed of the devil & Hosea 10:12 the free gift, the Word of Righteousness, the incorruptible Seed of Rom 5:17 & receive Him
in love & truth
1 Thessalonians 4:16
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
2 Thessalonians 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Revelation 4:1
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."
I experienced the Holy Spirt immediately present in me.
I didn't find it in Romans 10:9 bc later found that that was for the Jews back in the transitional period where Apostle Paul is beseeching his brethren!
I didn't find it in 1 Corinthians 15 either bc later found out that was a gospel of Reproof!
But the Holy Spirit entered in after reading Through Romans & at Romans 3:24/25/26 Gods free gift to all AMEN!
Many seriously believe that they are saved but it's all like Pinterest fluffiness.
SO You need to protect your souls I seriously ask you to join the Firstborn school & fellowship absolutely FREE, to escape what is ahead! 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The mark of the beast will devour many!
And I can say I will meet those who take eternity seriously find out how to get in the book of life!
Revelation 20:11-11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Right. Very soon there will be TWO DISTINCTS MAN Beasts operating or reigning in the Earth in this current time of Apocalypse, time of the END( 1Corinthians 15:24-28.Take a look.) Let us be ready to face them with the Sword, the Word of GOD- Hebrews 4:12-13KJV-. As you said, they are:
1 - the Beast of sea
2 - the Beast of the earth
1 - The very old and serial Gentilic MAN Beast of sea - Rev.13:1-10- , has seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, and whose very ancient roots are described in the verse 2.
2 - The MAN Beast of the earth having two horns like a lamb, a false lamb, in fact a false and ruthless messiah, Rev.13:11-18 combined with John 5:43-47 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 and 9-12. Terrible. Terrible.
Let us prepare to enter and face the final environment of the last week of the Devil's world, and the establishment of the FIFTH universal Devil's kingdom, the Antichrist's kingdom, and also in the middle of this last week the Abomination of Desolation- Daniel 9:27-, this satanic Kingdom is represented and described allegorically in the feet and ten toes of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar, part of iron and part of clay, according to Dan.2:41-45.Take a look.
In that fifth universal empire of the Devil, the universal empire of Antichrist, two satanic Beasts will be reigning on Earth, a Gentile Beast and a Jewish Beast, both represented literally in Rev.13, first as the Beast that rose out of the sea, rose from among the nations, from among the peoples, it rose precisely in Italy more or less 2.000 years ago still in the Roman Empire, and the second Beast, the Beast that will still rise from the Earth in this current time, precisely in Israel -Jerusalem- the holy city- this Beast will sit on his own throne as if he was God, claiming to be the messiah, actually an IMPOSTER, a false Christ,-Matt.24:23-, as JESUS warned us, and will exalt himself as if he were God, but he is MAN and not God.
Thanks for replying.
Jesus didn't come to end the law and make it desolate. He came to fulfill the law and perfect it.
He came to end the Leviticus priesthood where they presented sacrifices that pointed to him.
( Matthew 5:17-18.)
They rejected their king "Which was prophesied" They made their own "HOUSE" desolate. ( A people without a King to set on David's throne )
What the Prince that shall come does is totally different,
In Daniel 9:27 he confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.
This is the same thing mentioned in Daniel 12:11, (The abomination that maketh desolate.)
This is what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:15, ( This can't be at the end of Christ ministry because he said it this abomination would be at the end of the world.)
This 3.5 period is called the GREAT tribulation and it's prophesied towards Daniels "THY PEOPLE, ISRAEL.) Daniel 9:24.
You see this played out in Revelation 12:6.
Let's look at who confirms the covenant for 1 week.
Daniel 9:26-27 reads "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....
The Romans destroyed the Sanctuary, Jesus is not their prince.
Jesus didn't confirm this covenant and cause it to cease at his death.
Jesus death BEGINS a covenant!
The covenant in Daniel is a totally different covenant the Antichrist will confirm with Israel and cause the sacrifices to cease midway through the 70th week/Tribulations.
Revelation 13:15
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.
God bless.
See pt2
We now are IDENTIFIED with Jesus death and resurrection.
Romans 6:3-11;
Yes, if we're truly indeed are "dead unto sin"
but if we continue in sin for life, as you have responsed to me, & believe that one cannot overcome sin in this life, than we're not IDENTIFIED with Christ death or resurrection. Consider what you're reading in Romans 6; It's speaking about Grace appearance within our hearts Titus 2:11,12; destroying all the works of the devil, Rom 6:14; by 2 Thessalonians 2:8; the man of sin, alais the son of perditon that rules the Adamic nature, the spirit of darkness who animates the son of disobedience. Daniel 2:22; for this purpose is the Son of God is manifested to destroy him, but what is that for those who continue in sin for life, but there condemnation.
Jesus name declares His works, Matt 1:21 not in their sins.
.
God bless.
Christ has already come & that in Spirit, He told His disciples; Mark 9:1; Matt 16:28; over 2000 yrs ago, which came in full power at Pentecost.
I will not leave you comfortless, but you will see me again, that your joy maybe full, & Christ doesn't come alone, He brings His Father within Him, They became Ephesians 2:22; John 17:21-23; & they Micah 4:3;
Hebrews 9:28; is Titus 2:11; diffusing the fragrance of His knowledge in every heart. 2Cor 4:6 This is Titus 2:13; describing His 2nd appearance in Spirit. Who continually gives of Himself that Titus 2:14;
As for this son of perdition; it's the old Adamic nature that is rule by Ephesians 6:12; who's coming 2Thessalonians 2:9; this spirit works even deceive the very elect, who, we all must engage with within 2 Cor 10:3-5; Jesus says; Matt 15:18,19; for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so their within us. Think about this, we all have these thoughts spring up within us, 1 Pet 4:3; thus Jesus commands; Luke 14:27; The ones, Satan does deceive is explain, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; they refuse to believe the Witness, whom God has place within conscience. John 16:8; John 12:47-50; Jesus says, 8:24; Therefore were He has gone one cannot go.
Both seeds are spiritual, both kingdoms are within mankind.
This rapture theory John 17:11:15 "not to take them out of the world". But describes receiving 1Pet 1:5-9;The cumulation is the Baptism of the Holy Spirt, describing 2 Cor 10:6; resulting from Titus 3:5; by 1Pet 1:23; unto John 3:3; the chaff, ( old man sin nature is thoroughly purges out without a trace, Daniel 2:34,35; these earthen vessels, 1Cor 15:48,49; ) the wheat (new man created in the image of Him that created him) is gather unto the Gardener, we're His & He's ours, Acts 1:9-11; Daniel 7:13;
It's a spiritual encounter & habitation with the One true God, John 17:24; here & now, Acts 4:32,33;
Do you perceive the wonderous honor & glory of God's Great Salvation, on earth as it is in heaven.
The line of demarcation exists when we consider 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. For now; the gates of hell do not prevail against the church ( Matt. 16:18); but in the Tribulation or time of Jacob's trouble they will be overcome ( Rev. 13:7; Daniel 7:25). While we remain as salt and light the putrification is held back along with the final fulfillments of prophecies.
Ezekiel 38 is something geopolitically that seems to have aligned uniquely with Iran; Turkey and Russian agreements. As with anything else; those who look to the current war in Ukraine or any other conflicts basically are repeating centuries old patterns.
The downfall of currencies also seems to have been thwarted temporarily as of the last few days; apparently some small countries are utilizing the dollar more; and there seems to be both a new gold standard backed currency with the BRICS nations; and the concept of electronic currency concurrently happening; for now. Certainly there are harbingers of things to come. The recent lowering in prices of gold and silver (See Zephaniah 1:18; Ezekiel 7:19; and James 5:3) could indicate a collapse either just before the Tribulation and or during it (perhaps further enforced by Antichrist). To have the Mark of the Beast all other trade methodologies must be cancelled; I don't believe that can happen prior to the Rapture of the church in entirety.
Isaiah 8:12 reminds us not to call everything "conspiracy" that everyone else says is. The two dangers we have are thinking everything is an indication that the end has come; OR belittling the literal final fulfillment after all the predictions of the past proved false. Such could of course be argued with verses such as 1 Cor. 15:52 on the Rapture (Rapturo in Latin). Full Preterists think everything happened by 70 AD. Most think it was partially fulfilled; which again makes the most sense with a literal interpretation of the texts.
More to come...
Romans 3:10,12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:there is non that seeketh after God.
Psalms 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
1 Corinthians 1:27,28 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER(AN IMPOSTER - Who's is him?) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Paul apostle prophesied about that IMPOSTOR, saying - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9 :
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (See Revelation 13:11-14)
John 1:11KJV - JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
Philippians 2:6 - 6 Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD:
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
Sorry brother did not see your last post. I know we differ on this, as long as we inspire each other to study both sides we are doing ok. I feel the word antichrist has been used so many times having people looking for the wrong thing. This beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit, Rev. 17:8 we don't know what he will look like, the man of sin.
The word antichrist is not in Revelation, and where we see it in 1 John 2:18,22 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7 all are describing people or the spirit of antichrist, deceivers not a beast. There has been people from the time Jesus ascended claiming to be the Messiah and will deliver them from Roman oppression up to revolts before 70 AD. There was one in Acts 21:38 and some others and probably some today.
2 Thessalonians 2:4, which says this beast will exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped. Above God, or whatever people all over this world worship, this will be a world event for people of all religions. I agree the deception will be great and he may appear to many as Christ or what or who other people worship. I am sure many will accept him as the Christ.
In Revelation, we have Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and fallen angels on this earth, all working against God, Jesus, and all who have faith in them, it will not be a pleasant time. From the time Satan and his angels are cast down to earth and Satan gives his power, seat, and authority to the beast I only see 3.5 years not 7. And I do not see anyone taken out only the second coming of Jesus. 7 years only comes from Daniel 9 whether that turns out to be true or false. Hope this makes some sense.
God bless
RLW
I agree The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed.
However that fits the antichrist and his mission. Anti here means "instead of" and it can also mean against.
The Jews is still looking for their Messiah till this day and that's the primary role of the Antichrist.
Jesus hints at this in John 5:43.
So let's parallel the notion with other scriptures concerning him.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Revelation 13:8-12.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
These verses along with Daniel 9 emphasizes deception by the Antichrist.
Goodnight brother.
I also agree and hold to the outline Brother Chris gave on the 70 weeks but I term "the great tribulation" as the 2nd half of the 70th week as you do. "3 and a half years."
I believe in Mathew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14 Jesus describes the abomination of desolation as the beginning of the Great tribulation. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.
I believe Daniel 8:23-25 describes the rise and first half of the 70th week.
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
Also we see this false world peace mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:3.
We see today an urge to leave the narrow gate and merge other religious practices and religions into the Church.
The Nation of Islam uses the Bible and false so called Christian preachers to bridge the gap of their version of Islam and Christianity today.
The Antichrist is coming to set himself up above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:4.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
God bless.
'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'
You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.
Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.
I appreciate your honesty in expressing your view regarding the Nature of the Bible. That view, to one degree or another, is I believe the view held in the churches of our day. And is the reason that we have such divergent views on so many critical doctrines among the various churches and denominations of our day.
The Holiness and Authority of the Bible has deteriorated in the churches to such a point that they have become almost unrecognizable in many of their beliefs and practices from even a few decades ago.
And because of this I believe we are living in the day where 1 Peter 4:17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, and other end time passages are in play.
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to read and understand. He wrote it in a way that we must search it out in order to find Truth; and God Himself must lead us into Truth from the Bible as we apply the principles that God has laid out, not man. He wrote the Bible in such a way to not only reveal Truth, but to hide Truth.
But I am certain that God is in control and is working out His plan for this world in exact accordance with His Word, the Bible.
e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?
There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.
If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.
Good to hear from you as always!
I was just emphasizing a portion of those verses that emphasizes everlasting punishment by the hands of the Lord.
( he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.)
Psalms 75:7-8. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.
For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.
God is Love but he is also a righteous Judge.
Torment is everlasting I believe because the heart of the wicked is everlasting and uncurably evil.
We have discussed my take on the Holyspirit restraining evil in
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.
I mentioned that because man has no Idea how evil he really is apart from the restrainer/Holyspirit.
When the restraint on evil is taken out of the way you see a picture of man continuous rebellion even in the midst of torment in
Revelation 16:8-9.
I believe you and I along with others have discussed this in the past and I know we have different views on this however we respects one another view.
I believe Sasha had opposing views on this belief and was heavily engaged in these topics and later suze. Perhaps they're checking in from time to time!!
It's getting late Ronald,
Perhaps we will talk over the weekend.
God bless you.
God bless you.
Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).
When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').
Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.
2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).
The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.
I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.
Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.
What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?