Thank you, Jesus shamed the leaders of Jerusalem about traditions, Matthew 15:3 and we are told in Colossians 2:8. My understanding is when we believe in our heart that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to salvation we are justified by God's grace, Romans 3:24 and being baptized is being obedient to God's word, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: We then start the road to sanctification by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.
Jesus Christ has done everything necessary for our salvation and all we do we do in is name including being baptized, Colossians 3:17. He paid the penalty that our sins deserved by His sacrificial death on the cross. His death satisfied God's justice and turned away His wrath from us. God calls us but we must answer we must believe and be obedient to Him to be chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When we are baptized in the Name of Jesus we have put on Christ, Galatians 3:27. Being baptized is obedience, Ephesians 2:102 Thessalonians 1:8, every believer who has opportunity will be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the result of salvation, not the means to it.
Our obedience strengthens our faith, obedience shows our love for God, and our obedience to God's word is essential and it is not works. Those who are obedient are imitators of Christ and are willingly submitting to the authority, His will, and the word of God.
"11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Romans 6:3:7:
"3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
As to your question you have received several answers, my understanding in the Bible baptism is done only by immersion as the word means. As Jesse said sprinkling did not start until the 1300s and it was for the reason it was so inconvenient. So, this was done just because of convenience's sake, nothing Biblical about it. I agree with Giannis, and we must believe as Jesus said in Mark 16:16.
All we do is to be done in our Lord Jesus's name, Colossians 3:16-17. Many use Matthew 28:19 but we also see in the rest of Scripture that a person who is baptized in Jesus' name is someone who believes in Jesus as Savior, the Messiah, the Son of God who for us died, was buried, and was resurrected we acknowledge this by being baptized in His name, Acts 2:38Acts 8:12Acts 8:16Acts 10:48Acts 19:5Acts 22:16Romans 6:3Galatians 3:27Colossians 2:12Ephesians 4:5.
Paul shows the importance of being baptized in the name of Jesus, Acts 19:1-6. God has placed Jesus and His name above all that is in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18Philippians 2:9-11. Salvation only comes in His name Acts 4:12Romans 10:13. The name of Jesus is the source of power and authority for healing, miracles, and deliverance, Mark 16:17Luke 10:17Acts 4:7Acts 4:30Acts 16:18.
We are to give thanks in Jesus's name, Ephesians 5:20. Our faith is through Him and in His name, Acts 3:16. We must believe in Jesus, John 3:16John 6:47Acts 16:311 John 3:231 John 5:13. Whatever we ask for we are to ask in His name, John 14:13-14. We are to pray to the Father in His name, James 5:14. Jesus is our priest and the only mediator between God and men, 1 Timothy 2:5.
My belief differs from GiGi's as I believe that a person has to be immersed in water during the water baptism.
In Colossians 2:11-12 it says
"11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
In Romans 6:3:7 it says:
"3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7.For he that is dead is freed from sin.".
So the baptism in water signifies the burial of the old sinful man and the raise of the new man. The baptism is actually the burial of the old dead sinful man. To be buried with Christ into His death one has to be fully immersed in His death/grave/water.
Sorry but sprinkling with water, in my opinion, means nothing. On top of that the word baptism which originates from greek means immersion/going under. In the Book of Acts (9:26-40) we can read the story with Philipp and that eunuch. Another story is John's baptism. In the NT we don't see anybody to be water baptized by sprinkling. GBU
Colossians 2:2 says That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
To see the Body of Christ function balancing the gifts of the Spirit to minister to one another and fruits of the Spirit grown to maturity as mentioned in verses like this is perhaps my ultimate goal; it is a work in progress to find examples such as this.
I will give an example from a friend of mine to give some context to the point I am making. Leaving names and places out of this example I will state that the church he attended a year ago before becoming a lead Pastor himself in another state was basically teaching a correct Gospel (although I couldn't accept their stance on divorce and remarriage). The Pastor initially was without any elders or deacons for accountability and proper scriptural function related to his office. He was also rather caught up in himself; my friend helped for about a year or so as an assistant Pastor (and or youth Pastor). Anyway; to cut to the chase after being gone he recently visited the church and was surprised that they even missed him and was more affectionately received than expected. My point in this is that what makes the value of truth transform a heart is when the messenger himself has lived out what he believes. This brings out an example; much like that which my friend now faces in pastoring a rural church that is rather chaotic. Sometimes we view difficulties in church as a game changer; it is so easy to start to attend elsewhere or just virtually participate online. It helps as in the position of my friend to gain wisdom from being an understudy in submission to leadership so that in his current mode He can shepherd the flock more effectively from lessons learned.
Going back to the initial concept then; it is lack of proper function of elders that can lead to a God complex.
I'm glad you are able to have some relief and comfort.
Seventh-day Adventists is a denomination that differ in a few areas than most other denominations, the most notable is the Sabbath day.
Example.
They are distinguished by their observance of Saturday/Sabbath "Day"
The commandment for the Sabbath is found in Exodus 20"8-11.
Notice here in Exodus 31:13-18.
who it was written to.
"Speak thou also unto the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout YOUR GENERATIONS; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Wherefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
If we're applying sound hermeneutics we must consider who this is written to and coordinate this with other scriptures.
Example.
James 2:10. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Also, Colossians 2:16-17.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The consistency of the Bible and uniqueness of Christ
In my last post I describe how the incident in John 9 set apart Christ as doing something new; that only God could perform.
This wasn't something the religious Pharisees could deal with; as the lengthy account of this incident makes painfully clear.
We also see Jesus' claims to be able to forgive sins as something unique; yet the many prophecies in Isaiah should have been enough to convince the Jews that this indeed was the true Messiah. There were references there to healing the blind; ministry reaching out to the Gentiles; as well as things such as Isaiah 61 that Jesus quoted and then cut off before the next verse got into the Second Coming and establishing His Kingdom on the earth at that time.
In the analysis of the "Old" and "New" covenants it is better to say that the New one developed the full meaning of the Old.
It certainly doesn't eliminate moral expectations in regard to murder; adultery and covetousness in the original 10 Commandments; we can look to Colossians 2:16 as to the exception of a mandate for "Holy days" as to not enforcing Saturday as the day of rest. This is a hotbed of controversy for some so I won't elaborate further. It is clear ceremonial laws changed; in regard to foods eaten the Cornelious episode makes that abundantly clear. ( Acts 10).
Christ became the sacrifice for our sins so no further sacrifice is needed. ( Psalm 40:6-8). Clearly the grace of the N.T. is seen in the Old Testament; particularly in regard to the sacrifice of a contrite and broken heart as seen in Psalm 51 and many other places. God Himself at some point abhorred the sacrifices due to the hypocrisy ( Isaiah 1:14). Many call Isaiah the Gospel of the O.T. and it is needed reading to understand prophetic things to come regarding Christ and God's call to the Gentiles.
Many places appear to show Christ before He came on earth physically; it is an interesting study in itself. So is the Godhead.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18John 3:35John 5:26-27John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
Thanks Giannis for sharing in this. I can agree to Romans 8:29, " that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"; that clearly 'prototokos' here refers to Christ being our 'Forerunner' leading those who are saved by His Blood, into the new Birth He has provided for us; i.e. we follow Jesus, Who is the Firstborn among us.
Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.
That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.
Next I wish to speak of how God' character is "QUINTESSENTIAL"
Which means the highest, purest, most perfect, supreme manifestation, example, incarnation, type of the essence of something, the express image.
Jesus is the quintessential expression of God.
Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High."
Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
John 14:9 "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,, and how saith though then: Show us the Father?
Jesus is God in the flesh. He is the Son of the Father eternally and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Godhead is three Persons in one Godhead. Not three gods, but one. Jesus became man to save us and to show us a fleshy person of the Godhead, that is in union with the Godhead as the Word made flesh. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of true God. There is no other who can truly and perfectly represent God to us. Jesus is the only one who came from within the Godhead to earth to live as a man for us. The Holy Spirit is the only Spirit who came from within the Godhead to come to live in us. When Jesus came to earth, the Father and the Spirit were in Him yet still separate Persons from Him. And when the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Father and the Son lives in each of us, yet are still separate Persons. There are not multiple Fathers and Sons and Holy Spirits inhabiting every believer that every has lived. There is only one. God who is everywhere present all the time and specifically present in every believer. This is a mystery, but it is real and true. God has told us so in His Word that is truly true.
In heaven, if Jesus is the only one we see of the Godhead, we will truly be seeing the Godhead.
Before going back to what I have written so far about Sabbath I would like to see what Paul says about it in Colossians.
Colossians 2:16-17, " 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come ; but the body is of Christ.(it means that the real thing that saves is Christ, like a shadow is an image of a real body under the sun)"
Paul calls Sabbath, among other things, as "shadow of future things(this is the exact translation)". Now since those verses are often presented as meaning the opposite of what they do really mean, lets see what Paul was talking about. In preceding verses Paul says, (verses 6- 8 and 14), "6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.8.Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
And verse 14." Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
And then he goes talking about meat and drink, holy days etc and Sabbath (verses 16-17). It is obvious that Paul includes Sabbath in the ordinances of the Old Testament for which we are not to be judged for not holding them. Why? Because they served as a shadow (metaphor, allegory) of future things, which actually came to us now through Christ. He also says that we must root and build up ourselves in Christ and not on those other things. He then goes on and says that Jesus nailed all those ordinances to the cross, thus blotting them out.
But the main thing is that Paul includes Sabbath in the ordinances, together with all other things like what it was accepted to eat and drink and days that were considered as holy.
What a great read. Thank you so much for sharing this. You bring up a great point about the man being stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. And yes, the Sabbath was given to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Have you ever noticed that out of all the 10 Commandments given in the Old Testament (Exodus Chapter 20), only 9 of them are given emphasis in the New Testament ( Matthew 19:18, Romans 13:9).
The commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy seems to be left out of the New Testament. I see no such commandment given to the church. There is no such commandment given to the church to keep the Sabbath day the way the Jews were to keep it. The Sabbath was part of the Old Covenant Law between God and Israel. The church was not in existence when this command was given. As Christians, are we under the Old Covenant law, or are we under God's grace? This is just a general question, no need to provide an answer as I'm sure I know your answer to this one.
To us today, it would seem quite extreme to see someone put to death for something as simple as picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Some say that we must keep the Sabbath day holy, but also say that it's okay to do certain things (even more than just picking up sticks), and that's justified if it's something they need. I wonder how many of today's Sabbath Keepers would be stoned to death today for the things they do on the Sabbath day, if they were to do those same things if they lived during the time the command was given?
We as believers have freedom in Jesus Christ. We are not to judge others regarding their view on keeping the Sabbath, regardless of which view one takes ( Colossians 2:16). And yes, our rest is in Christ Jesus, Amen!
Again, thank you for sharing this. I have been following along in this topic for the past week or so but chose to stay out as it seems to be a very sensitive subject with some. I'll just leave it at that.
The early Christians were loyal Jews; they worshiped daily in the Temple at Jerusalem; they attended services in the synagogue; they revered the law of Moses.
Notice in Acts 15 Paul did not try to persuade them to drop the Sabbath and start meeting on Sunday.
The dispute over the requirements of a Gentile Christian were resolved at the Council at Jerusalem and the Sabbath wasn't even brought up but the liberty we have in Christ for the Gentiles was on display. In other words, they weren't expected to be as zealous for the Jewish customs and rituals as the Jewish Christians were in the early Church.
Acts 15:22-24
Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT:
In Moses law breaking many of these commandments was a death sentence!
Why aren't we so passionate to execute that?
Who would be alive?
Colossians 2:14-17 shows us how we were freed from the sentencing of the penalty of these laws that brought death instead of life.
Today it is not where or when you worship. It is HOW you worship.
John 4:21-24.
If you are born of the spirit, you are sons of God and has joined him in his rest.
This situation and others like it are not disobeying the Sabbath. But if you get a part time job helping your fiend with his moving business on The Sabbath, this is disobeying the Sabbath. If you need the extra money, pray and God will provide it to you without you having to break the Sabbath. Remember David and his feeding his men the shewbread. ( 1 Sam. 21: 1-6). It wasn't something he did all the time, it was something of need at the time. The same with Christ feeding his disciples from the cornfield on the sabbath ( Matt. 12:21) or someone pulling their ox out of a ditch on the sabbath ( Luke 14:5). So the Holy Spirit is telling us to not let others "judge" you for this kind of behavior on the Sabbath. It does not say to no longer keep this day Holy.
Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
Excuse me but how-in-the-world does this scripture indicate that the church met on Sunday? Paul is asking them at the beginning of each week to set aside an amount of money for whatever so this won't have to be bothered with when he visits them again. This is not work and he certainly doesn't say for them to switch to Sundays to have church until he comes. Please use some discernment.
Colossians 2:14 & 16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." God did give Moses statues and ordinances for instructions on His 10 commandments to give to the Jews but they eventually added foolish ones of their own. Verses 14 explains this by calling these ordinances that were "against" them and which caused the Jews much confusion in following the real laws of God and Moses.
Jesus lived a sinless life by always choosing to exercise faith in God, never sinning, thus He did not deserve the curse of the law; yet took the curse upon himself and trade for humanity.
How many times have unbelievers and believers alike said, it is not fair that all of humanity would pay the price of eternal damnation because of one man's choice, Adam's decision.
Yet, the righteousness of God is seen in that Humanity is saved, with the penalty of sin paid for by one man's choice, Jesus decision to take our place.
There is both quality and justice in the trade; wherein God's righteousness is maintained, while at the same time displaying mercy and grace.
This is the reason for 1 Corinthians 15:22, which states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45, which states:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The only way that God could save fallen man was by Jesus becoming our kinsman Redeemer, by both purchasing us with His blood; while at the same time killing death for the sake of His family, "humanity" (And in the second coming destroying the enemies of his people).
Jesus stated in John 5:39:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
All of God's Word has one purpose, it is the glorification of God ("Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7), and His Son Jesus Christ ( Ephesians 1:20-22; Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:12-19).
It is Jesus that deserves preeminence in God's Word.
All of these Old Testament types and shadows ( Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17) and figures (Theologically referred to as "Expositional Constancy" meant as object lessons to paint the picture of the Messiah, so that He would be recognizable when He came.
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Ephesians 4:13 Till WE ALL COME into the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For IN HIM dwelleth all the FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.
Colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ..... Christ IN YOU ......are you not the body of Christ .....
1 Corinthians 12:27 ... ye are the BODY of Christ ......
John 19:34 ..... Is it not written IN YOU LAW, I HAVE SAID, Ye are gods?
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28Revelation 20:14.
Yes, this has been discussed before. There are those who believe Jesus is God, and those who don't. I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. I'm glad to know that you also disagree with both the Mormon and JW's view on who Jesus is. Many cult groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and also deny that He is God.
I wasn't speaking about the trinity although I believe in a Triune God. This comes mainly from Colossians 2:9. I'm not sure if there's a clearer statement than that! In Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in bodily form! In 1 John 5:20, there are two great statements of fact; Jesus Christ is the true God, and He is the eternal life!
I didn't know that today in Christianity, salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. I stand with you when I say that I don't believe that is a requirement for salvation. The bible teaches that salvation is obtained by surrendering one's life to Jesus Christ and being born from above.
Your questions are fair and might challenge someone to question their belief as Jesus being God. A fair question was also asked in Mark 2:5-8. To a man who was sick of the palsy, Jesus said, "thy sins be forgiven thee." For that, the scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy. Their question was "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Good question! God is the only one who can forgive sins, so why is this man (Jesus) committing blasphemy?
This is not the first time He was accused of blasphemy. He was accused of blasphemy for making Himself equal with God, claiming to be the Son of God, which to those who heard Him, they understood very well that the phrase "Son of God" was the same as claiming to be God. So, they had every right to accuse Him of blasphemy, unless of course Jesus was (and is) God, which I believe He is!
Ronald, thank you so much for reading my original 2-part post, and thank you for sharing your belief on this important topic. Blessings to you also!
We've been married 44 years now and we made that decision right off the bat.
I believe that Paul spoke in Colossians 2:16 about the freedom of believers from the necessity of keeping the OT feasts and holy days. I believe we are free to do so or not dot do so. We also are free to celebrate the seasons of the year, national holidays, birthdays, weddings, anniversaries, family feasts, etc. or not to do so.
But we do need to be on guard about using celebrations for idolatrous practices; as a license to sin and debauchery, drunkenness, and hedonism; as an devotion to the holiday or persons instead of to the Lord.
So, as Paul said, in whatever we do, we are to do it with a clear conscience unto the Lord, with thanksgiving to God and respect for His holiness and supremacy as the only true God.
We are headed over to family today to celebrate Thanksgiving. We have not all been together with nieces, nephews, and grands for a few years with this brother of mine. Looking forward to seeing everyone again. We always have a good time. Also, my other brother is up from Hawaii, so we will see him today and he will come down to stay with us for a few days. He usually divides his time between four households of family members that we all get along with. There are 4 other siblings of mine which is a different story as to their spiritual outlook, love for God, and lifestyles.
I hope you are well during this season with all that is going around. I pray to not get any respiratory viruses since I usually have severe problems due to asthma and reactive airways. For this reason, I don't gather with large groups much and usually hang with people who respect this weakness of my physical body, rescheduling if they have a cold, cough, or any other respiratory symptoms. It has been an adjustment for us, but since I retired from teaching, I have been much more well each cold/flu season by practicing this "social distancing". Not everyone needs to do this, tho.
Something amazing about that BOOK. Do you know why it's called the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE?
It is filled with the names of those of us who have LIFE, the LIFE of the BLESSED SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
FULL of LIFE! Abundant LIFE! John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly." What does it mean to have LIFE more abundant?
To be FULL of the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD, and to have HIS name written on our foreheads though the circumcision not made with hands Colossians 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" May we endeavor to keep to HIS fullness for we are complete in HIM. Colossians 2:10
Being renewed day by day. 2 Corinthians 4:16
Our hope is in JESUS, and not in the things of this world. So, yes, we prepare, and we equip ourselves as soldiers in the army of God, prepared for battle. Yet, we lean NOT on our own strength, but on His everlasting arms, because He is our strength, our shield.
We study to show ourselves approved of GOD. For we are not those who seek honor from men, but the honor that comes from God alone, and he gives us favor. "So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man." Proverbs 3:4
He is the MASTER potter, and we are the clay. May our lives be honorable unto Him, and him alone. For He alone is worthy to be praised. I magnify His name. His glorious name JESUS. All powerful is our LORD, and Savior Jesus Christ.
The grace of our Lord and Savior be with you. Amen
Salvation there is a death and an ressurection for the TRUE believers.
This is not done by an alter call or an profession but by the Spirit of God that searches the heart.
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 3:1
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Life begins here as a babe in Christ,
God bless you for this all important portion of scripture.
We cannot say Satan made me do it, we are responsible if we sin.
What is death? Is it just the body that dies and our conscious soul, lives on somewhere outside the body? This started when the serpent said to Eve, Ye shall not surely die, you will be as gods. Most pagan religions have an afterlife where the soul lives forever. In the Bible, the OT is the word Sheol meaning the grave and death was sleep with no knowledge or consciousness, nowhere is the immortal soul in the Bible.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they were taken out of the garden and forbidden eternal life/immortality from the Tree of Life, Gen. 3:24. When the OT was translated into Greek Sheol became Hades with the Greek meaning that came with it, and in English, it's Hell with the same Greek meaning, the soul separates from the body and the conscious souls goes to a place of the dead. Many believe there is either eternal life with Jesus or eternal damnation in Hell/lake of fire where they will be tormented for eternity.
If we say our soul is immortal, we are saying we are gods because we cannot die. But the Bible says without the gift of eternal life given to us in the resurrection we will die the second death, we will perish, be destroyed forever to be no more. Romans 6:23Psalms 37:10-13Psalms 92:7Proverbs 10:25, 29 John 3:162 Peter 2:10-12, they are mortal and will perish.
The unrighteous will be destroyed/perish, they will have their part in the lake of fire, Rev. 21:8. Their death is forever, not forever in torment. When we die our destiny is fixed, there is not a second chance after death. This adoption of the Greek philosophy of the immortal soul and Hades fogs our understanding, it plugs our ears that are to hear.
I could say more but I will leave it here, I hope you will study for the truth. We should empty our minds in prayer where we are open to the truth given by the Spirit of Truth, not led by the traditions of men, Colossians 2:8.
Thanks for your explanation of 'abrogation' Daruled. Though I understand what you're writing, I still can't see how if 'you don't believe in it' (i.e. in this instance by my use of it), yet I can still "use it correctly". Therefore, Matthew 5:18 as you quoted, is of no problem to me as I read that Jesus was born "under the Law ( Galatians 4:4), to redeem them that were under the law" ( Galatians 4:5). He came as a Jew, abiding by the Laws & all the ceremonial requirements, as the Old Covenant was still in force. And as He said, "I am not come to destroy (the Law), but to fulfil"; His purpose was not to remove the Law but to fulfil its demands perfectly (and so He did in His Life & in His Death). He could not be accused to have broken any Law, even though the religious leaders had much to accuse Him of according to their interpretations & inclusions within the Law. They might even have thought of this Man, with this new teaching, as an opponent to 'their brand' of Laws & thus undermining their hypocritical regime. But Jesus said that the true Law's destruction wasn't His purpose of coming.
But when the Work at the Cross was fully accomplished, the Law that once only led to death giving no hope, was nailed to the Cross ( Colossians 2:14), thus bringing an end to both it & the Old Covenant under which it was enshrined. To Page 2.
You wrote "Yes it is the 4th Commandment. Regarding the Sabbath scripturally, this is directly from God."
There are several scriptures here that do not lend support to your position regarding Christians having to maintain the Sabbath. Not to mention the entire book of Galatians weighing in on the law.
Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
2 Corinthians 3:7-11 (AMP)
7 Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the Law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away,
8 Why should not the dispensation of the Spirit [this spiritual ministry whose task it is to cause men to obtain and be governed by the Holy Spirit] be attended with much greater and more splendid glory?
9 For if the service that condemns [the ministration of doom] had glory, how infinitely more abounding in splendor and glory must be the service that makes righteous [the ministry that produces and fosters righteous living and right standing with God]!
10Indeed, in view of this fact, what once had splendor [the glory of the Law in the face of Moses] has come to have no splendor at all, because of the overwhelming glory that exceeds and excels it [the glory of the Gospel in the face of Jesus Christ].
11 For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!
Are the "commandments" you are referring to the Old Testament laws, especially the Ten Commandments, or are they commands or charges given by Christ?
The book of Galatians addressed this legalism, and one might conclude that Paul defeated the teachers of legalism so effectively that the issue would never trouble the church again. History and experience prove otherwise! Legalism has become so important a part of Christendom that most people believe that it actually belongs.
Let's examine them one at a time. In regards to 1 John 2:4
Those who understand "knowing" in reference to salvation insist that assurance of salvation comes by obeying either the Old Testament laws or the commands of Christ in the New Testament. Those of the Reformed covenant persuasion generally see commandments as referring to the Ten Commandments, which they believe are still binding on believers as a rule of life. Interestingly, the word translated commandments is not the Greek nomos, which John reserves for the Mosaic Law. It is rather entole, meaning order, command, or change. Dispensationalists, on the other hand, do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life, as the way by which God deals with His people ( 2Co 3:7-11; Heb 7:11-14).*[For a full discussion of the contrasts between covenantism and dispensationalism, see Renald E. Showers, There Really Is a Difference (Bellmawr, NJ "Twenty-First Century Biblical Commentary". Marion, IA: Laridian, Inc., 2021.
All Scripture including all of Paul's letters to the churches are inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and Jesus do not contradict each other. Paul wrote in Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Hence why majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life, as the way by which God deals with His people ( 2Co 3:7-11; Heb 7:11-14).
As I pointed out in another comment, we must be extremely careful when talking about the God Head, as our finite minds cannot fully grasp the Nature of Infinite God. We read the Bible and accept what we read by faith without attempting to go beyond that. And there is no question that Jesus, the Lord Jesus Christ, was and is Eternal God Himself.
I am a bit shocked by you statement. And that is absolutely not what the Bible teaches. In the first place if Jesus was not God, He could not have paid for the sins of anyone by enduring the Wrath of God, eternal death required by the Law of God and then have risen again.
Here are just a couple of verses that militate against what you are suggesting:
Speaking of Jesus, we read in Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.
And then in John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
And there are others, like John 1:1-5.
Now you do make a very interesting point about Jesus being called the "SON" of God, and "BEGOTTEN" of the Father. There is no question that Christ existed from Eternity past as Eternal God Himself and will continue to exist throughout Eternity future as Eternal God Himself. But it is fair to ask the question, When did Christ "become" the Son of God? Because the word "Begotten" signifies a "beginning". I submit that Christ became the Son of God when He rose from the Dead. But Jesus is referred to as the Son of God even before going to the Cross here on earth. Without getting into a detailed discussion, I think the case can be made that Christ was, very literally, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" Rev13:8.
Thank you, Jesus shamed the leaders of Jerusalem about traditions, Matthew 15:3 and we are told in Colossians 2:8. My understanding is when we believe in our heart that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to salvation we are justified by God's grace, Romans 3:24 and being baptized is being obedient to God's word, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: We then start the road to sanctification by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.
Jesus Christ has done everything necessary for our salvation and all we do we do in is name including being baptized, Colossians 3:17. He paid the penalty that our sins deserved by His sacrificial death on the cross. His death satisfied God's justice and turned away His wrath from us. God calls us but we must answer we must believe and be obedient to Him to be chosen, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When we are baptized in the Name of Jesus we have put on Christ, Galatians 3:27. Being baptized is obedience, Ephesians 2:10 2 Thessalonians 1:8, every believer who has opportunity will be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ. Baptism is the result of salvation, not the means to it.
Our obedience strengthens our faith, obedience shows our love for God, and our obedience to God's word is essential and it is not works. Those who are obedient are imitators of Christ and are willingly submitting to the authority, His will, and the word of God.
God bless,
RLW
What is water baptism?
Colossians 2:11-12:
"11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Romans 6:3:7:
"3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7.For he that is dead is freed from sin.".
GBU
As to your question you have received several answers, my understanding in the Bible baptism is done only by immersion as the word means. As Jesse said sprinkling did not start until the 1300s and it was for the reason it was so inconvenient. So, this was done just because of convenience's sake, nothing Biblical about it. I agree with Giannis, and we must believe as Jesus said in Mark 16:16.
All we do is to be done in our Lord Jesus's name, Colossians 3:16-17. Many use Matthew 28:19 but we also see in the rest of Scripture that a person who is baptized in Jesus' name is someone who believes in Jesus as Savior, the Messiah, the Son of God who for us died, was buried, and was resurrected we acknowledge this by being baptized in His name, Acts 2:38 Acts 8:12 Acts 8:16 Acts 10:48 Acts 19:5 Acts 22:16 Romans 6:3 Galatians 3:27 Colossians 2:12 Ephesians 4:5.
Paul shows the importance of being baptized in the name of Jesus, Acts 19:1-6. God has placed Jesus and His name above all that is in heaven and earth, Matthew 28:18 Philippians 2:9-11. Salvation only comes in His name Acts 4:12 Romans 10:13. The name of Jesus is the source of power and authority for healing, miracles, and deliverance, Mark 16:17 Luke 10:17 Acts 4:7 Acts 4:30 Acts 16:18.
We are to give thanks in Jesus's name, Ephesians 5:20. Our faith is through Him and in His name, Acts 3:16. We must believe in Jesus, John 3:16 John 6:47 Acts 16:31 1 John 3:23 1 John 5:13. Whatever we ask for we are to ask in His name, John 14:13-14. We are to pray to the Father in His name, James 5:14. Jesus is our priest and the only mediator between God and men, 1 Timothy 2:5.
God bless,
RLW
My belief differs from GiGi's as I believe that a person has to be immersed in water during the water baptism.
In Colossians 2:11-12 it says
"11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
In Romans 6:3:7 it says:
"3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7.For he that is dead is freed from sin.".
So the baptism in water signifies the burial of the old sinful man and the raise of the new man. The baptism is actually the burial of the old dead sinful man. To be buried with Christ into His death one has to be fully immersed in His death/grave/water.
Sorry but sprinkling with water, in my opinion, means nothing. On top of that the word baptism which originates from greek means immersion/going under. In the Book of Acts (9:26-40) we can read the story with Philipp and that eunuch. Another story is John's baptism. In the NT we don't see anybody to be water baptized by sprinkling. GBU
To see the Body of Christ function balancing the gifts of the Spirit to minister to one another and fruits of the Spirit grown to maturity as mentioned in verses like this is perhaps my ultimate goal; it is a work in progress to find examples such as this.
I will give an example from a friend of mine to give some context to the point I am making. Leaving names and places out of this example I will state that the church he attended a year ago before becoming a lead Pastor himself in another state was basically teaching a correct Gospel (although I couldn't accept their stance on divorce and remarriage). The Pastor initially was without any elders or deacons for accountability and proper scriptural function related to his office. He was also rather caught up in himself; my friend helped for about a year or so as an assistant Pastor (and or youth Pastor). Anyway; to cut to the chase after being gone he recently visited the church and was surprised that they even missed him and was more affectionately received than expected. My point in this is that what makes the value of truth transform a heart is when the messenger himself has lived out what he believes. This brings out an example; much like that which my friend now faces in pastoring a rural church that is rather chaotic. Sometimes we view difficulties in church as a game changer; it is so easy to start to attend elsewhere or just virtually participate online. It helps as in the position of my friend to gain wisdom from being an understudy in submission to leadership so that in his current mode He can shepherd the flock more effectively from lessons learned.
Going back to the initial concept then; it is lack of proper function of elders that can lead to a God complex.
Thanks for responding.
I'm glad you are able to have some relief and comfort.
Seventh-day Adventists is a denomination that differ in a few areas than most other denominations, the most notable is the Sabbath day.
Example.
They are distinguished by their observance of Saturday/Sabbath "Day"
The commandment for the Sabbath is found in Exodus 20"8-11.
Notice here in Exodus 31:13-18.
who it was written to.
"Speak thou also unto the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout YOUR GENERATIONS; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Wherefore the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
If we're applying sound hermeneutics we must consider who this is written to and coordinate this with other scriptures.
Example.
James 2:10. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Also, Colossians 2:16-17.
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
See part 2.
In my last post I describe how the incident in John 9 set apart Christ as doing something new; that only God could perform.
This wasn't something the religious Pharisees could deal with; as the lengthy account of this incident makes painfully clear.
We also see Jesus' claims to be able to forgive sins as something unique; yet the many prophecies in Isaiah should have been enough to convince the Jews that this indeed was the true Messiah. There were references there to healing the blind; ministry reaching out to the Gentiles; as well as things such as Isaiah 61 that Jesus quoted and then cut off before the next verse got into the Second Coming and establishing His Kingdom on the earth at that time.
In the analysis of the "Old" and "New" covenants it is better to say that the New one developed the full meaning of the Old.
It certainly doesn't eliminate moral expectations in regard to murder; adultery and covetousness in the original 10 Commandments; we can look to Colossians 2:16 as to the exception of a mandate for "Holy days" as to not enforcing Saturday as the day of rest. This is a hotbed of controversy for some so I won't elaborate further. It is clear ceremonial laws changed; in regard to foods eaten the Cornelious episode makes that abundantly clear. ( Acts 10).
Christ became the sacrifice for our sins so no further sacrifice is needed. ( Psalm 40:6-8). Clearly the grace of the N.T. is seen in the Old Testament; particularly in regard to the sacrifice of a contrite and broken heart as seen in Psalm 51 and many other places. God Himself at some point abhorred the sacrifices due to the hypocrisy ( Isaiah 1:14). Many call Isaiah the Gospel of the O.T. and it is needed reading to understand prophetic things to come regarding Christ and God's call to the Gentiles.
Many places appear to show Christ before He came on earth physically; it is an interesting study in itself. So is the Godhead.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
God bless,
RLW
Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.
That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.
Which means the highest, purest, most perfect, supreme manifestation, example, incarnation, type of the essence of something, the express image.
Jesus is the quintessential expression of God.
Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High."
Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily"
John 14:9 "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
He that hath seen me hath seen the Father,, and how saith though then: Show us the Father?
Jesus is God in the flesh. He is the Son of the Father eternally and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Godhead is three Persons in one Godhead. Not three gods, but one. Jesus became man to save us and to show us a fleshy person of the Godhead, that is in union with the Godhead as the Word made flesh. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of true God. There is no other who can truly and perfectly represent God to us. Jesus is the only one who came from within the Godhead to earth to live as a man for us. The Holy Spirit is the only Spirit who came from within the Godhead to come to live in us. When Jesus came to earth, the Father and the Spirit were in Him yet still separate Persons from Him. And when the Holy Spirit lives in us, the Father and the Son lives in each of us, yet are still separate Persons. There are not multiple Fathers and Sons and Holy Spirits inhabiting every believer that every has lived. There is only one. God who is everywhere present all the time and specifically present in every believer. This is a mystery, but it is real and true. God has told us so in His Word that is truly true.
In heaven, if Jesus is the only one we see of the Godhead, we will truly be seeing the Godhead.
Before going back to what I have written so far about Sabbath I would like to see what Paul says about it in Colossians.
Colossians 2:16-17, " 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come ; but the body is of Christ.(it means that the real thing that saves is Christ, like a shadow is an image of a real body under the sun)"
Paul calls Sabbath, among other things, as "shadow of future things(this is the exact translation)". Now since those verses are often presented as meaning the opposite of what they do really mean, lets see what Paul was talking about. In preceding verses Paul says, (verses 6- 8 and 14), "6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.8.Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
And verse 14." Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"
And then he goes talking about meat and drink, holy days etc and Sabbath (verses 16-17). It is obvious that Paul includes Sabbath in the ordinances of the Old Testament for which we are not to be judged for not holding them. Why? Because they served as a shadow (metaphor, allegory) of future things, which actually came to us now through Christ. He also says that we must root and build up ourselves in Christ and not on those other things. He then goes on and says that Jesus nailed all those ordinances to the cross, thus blotting them out.
But the main thing is that Paul includes Sabbath in the ordinances, together with all other things like what it was accepted to eat and drink and days that were considered as holy.
What a great read. Thank you so much for sharing this. You bring up a great point about the man being stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. And yes, the Sabbath was given to the children of Israel as a sign between them and God. Have you ever noticed that out of all the 10 Commandments given in the Old Testament (Exodus Chapter 20), only 9 of them are given emphasis in the New Testament ( Matthew 19:18, Romans 13:9).
The commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy seems to be left out of the New Testament. I see no such commandment given to the church. There is no such commandment given to the church to keep the Sabbath day the way the Jews were to keep it. The Sabbath was part of the Old Covenant Law between God and Israel. The church was not in existence when this command was given. As Christians, are we under the Old Covenant law, or are we under God's grace? This is just a general question, no need to provide an answer as I'm sure I know your answer to this one.
To us today, it would seem quite extreme to see someone put to death for something as simple as picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Some say that we must keep the Sabbath day holy, but also say that it's okay to do certain things (even more than just picking up sticks), and that's justified if it's something they need. I wonder how many of today's Sabbath Keepers would be stoned to death today for the things they do on the Sabbath day, if they were to do those same things if they lived during the time the command was given?
We as believers have freedom in Jesus Christ. We are not to judge others regarding their view on keeping the Sabbath, regardless of which view one takes ( Colossians 2:16). And yes, our rest is in Christ Jesus, Amen!
Again, thank you for sharing this. I have been following along in this topic for the past week or so but chose to stay out as it seems to be a very sensitive subject with some. I'll just leave it at that.
Blessings!!!
The early Church.
The early Christians were loyal Jews; they worshiped daily in the Temple at Jerusalem; they attended services in the synagogue; they revered the law of Moses.
Notice in Acts 15 Paul did not try to persuade them to drop the Sabbath and start meeting on Sunday.
The dispute over the requirements of a Gentile Christian were resolved at the Council at Jerusalem and the Sabbath wasn't even brought up but the liberty we have in Christ for the Gentiles was on display. In other words, they weren't expected to be as zealous for the Jewish customs and rituals as the Jewish Christians were in the early Church.
Acts 15:22-24
Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT:
In Moses law breaking many of these commandments was a death sentence!
Why aren't we so passionate to execute that?
Who would be alive?
Colossians 2:14-17 shows us how we were freed from the sentencing of the penalty of these laws that brought death instead of life.
Today it is not where or when you worship. It is HOW you worship.
John 4:21-24.
If you are born of the spirit, you are sons of God and has joined him in his rest.
God bless.
This situation and others like it are not disobeying the Sabbath. But if you get a part time job helping your fiend with his moving business on The Sabbath, this is disobeying the Sabbath. If you need the extra money, pray and God will provide it to you without you having to break the Sabbath. Remember David and his feeding his men the shewbread. ( 1 Sam. 21: 1-6). It wasn't something he did all the time, it was something of need at the time. The same with Christ feeding his disciples from the cornfield on the sabbath ( Matt. 12:21) or someone pulling their ox out of a ditch on the sabbath ( Luke 14:5). So the Holy Spirit is telling us to not let others "judge" you for this kind of behavior on the Sabbath. It does not say to no longer keep this day Holy.
Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
Excuse me but how-in-the-world does this scripture indicate that the church met on Sunday? Paul is asking them at the beginning of each week to set aside an amount of money for whatever so this won't have to be bothered with when he visits them again. This is not work and he certainly doesn't say for them to switch to Sundays to have church until he comes. Please use some discernment.
Colossians 2:14 & 16 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." God did give Moses statues and ordinances for instructions on His 10 commandments to give to the Jews but they eventually added foolish ones of their own. Verses 14 explains this by calling these ordinances that were "against" them and which caused the Jews much confusion in following the real laws of God and Moses.
Part 9.
His Role
Jesus lived a sinless life by always choosing to exercise faith in God, never sinning, thus He did not deserve the curse of the law; yet took the curse upon himself and trade for humanity.
How many times have unbelievers and believers alike said, it is not fair that all of humanity would pay the price of eternal damnation because of one man's choice, Adam's decision.
Yet, the righteousness of God is seen in that Humanity is saved, with the penalty of sin paid for by one man's choice, Jesus decision to take our place.
There is both quality and justice in the trade; wherein God's righteousness is maintained, while at the same time displaying mercy and grace.
This is the reason for 1 Corinthians 15:22, which states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45, which states:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The only way that God could save fallen man was by Jesus becoming our kinsman Redeemer, by both purchasing us with His blood; while at the same time killing death for the sake of His family, "humanity" (And in the second coming destroying the enemies of his people).
Jesus stated in John 5:39:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
All of God's Word has one purpose, it is the glorification of God ("Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7), and His Son Jesus Christ ( Ephesians 1:20-22; Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:12-19).
It is Jesus that deserves preeminence in God's Word.
All of these Old Testament types and shadows ( Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17) and figures (Theologically referred to as "Expositional Constancy" meant as object lessons to paint the picture of the Messiah, so that He would be recognizable when He came.
See Pt 10
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
Is Christ God?
Ephesians 4:13 Till WE ALL COME into the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For IN HIM dwelleth all the FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.
Colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ..... Christ IN YOU ......are you not the body of Christ .....
1 Corinthians 12:27 ... ye are the BODY of Christ ......
John 19:34 ..... Is it not written IN YOU LAW, I HAVE SAID, Ye are gods?
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
Yes, this has been discussed before. There are those who believe Jesus is God, and those who don't. I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. I'm glad to know that you also disagree with both the Mormon and JW's view on who Jesus is. Many cult groups deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and also deny that He is God.
I wasn't speaking about the trinity although I believe in a Triune God. This comes mainly from Colossians 2:9. I'm not sure if there's a clearer statement than that! In Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in bodily form! In 1 John 5:20, there are two great statements of fact; Jesus Christ is the true God, and He is the eternal life!
I didn't know that today in Christianity, salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. I stand with you when I say that I don't believe that is a requirement for salvation. The bible teaches that salvation is obtained by surrendering one's life to Jesus Christ and being born from above.
Your questions are fair and might challenge someone to question their belief as Jesus being God. A fair question was also asked in Mark 2:5-8. To a man who was sick of the palsy, Jesus said, "thy sins be forgiven thee." For that, the scribes accused Jesus of blasphemy. Their question was "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Good question! God is the only one who can forgive sins, so why is this man (Jesus) committing blasphemy?
This is not the first time He was accused of blasphemy. He was accused of blasphemy for making Himself equal with God, claiming to be the Son of God, which to those who heard Him, they understood very well that the phrase "Son of God" was the same as claiming to be God. So, they had every right to accuse Him of blasphemy, unless of course Jesus was (and is) God, which I believe He is!
Ronald, thank you so much for reading my original 2-part post, and thank you for sharing your belief on this important topic. Blessings to you also!
Micah 4 is a prophecy of Jesus Christ (the Kingdom of God).
It has been happening to the called out now for 2000 years, ever since John came PREACHING: prepare ye the way; for the kingdom of God, is AT HAND.
Colossians 2:27 .... this MYSTERY .... Christ IN YOU ........
God Bless You
We've been married 44 years now and we made that decision right off the bat.
I believe that Paul spoke in Colossians 2:16 about the freedom of believers from the necessity of keeping the OT feasts and holy days. I believe we are free to do so or not dot do so. We also are free to celebrate the seasons of the year, national holidays, birthdays, weddings, anniversaries, family feasts, etc. or not to do so.
But we do need to be on guard about using celebrations for idolatrous practices; as a license to sin and debauchery, drunkenness, and hedonism; as an devotion to the holiday or persons instead of to the Lord.
So, as Paul said, in whatever we do, we are to do it with a clear conscience unto the Lord, with thanksgiving to God and respect for His holiness and supremacy as the only true God.
We are headed over to family today to celebrate Thanksgiving. We have not all been together with nieces, nephews, and grands for a few years with this brother of mine. Looking forward to seeing everyone again. We always have a good time. Also, my other brother is up from Hawaii, so we will see him today and he will come down to stay with us for a few days. He usually divides his time between four households of family members that we all get along with. There are 4 other siblings of mine which is a different story as to their spiritual outlook, love for God, and lifestyles.
I hope you are well during this season with all that is going around. I pray to not get any respiratory viruses since I usually have severe problems due to asthma and reactive airways. For this reason, I don't gather with large groups much and usually hang with people who respect this weakness of my physical body, rescheduling if they have a cold, cough, or any other respiratory symptoms. It has been an adjustment for us, but since I retired from teaching, I have been much more well each cold/flu season by practicing this "social distancing". Not everyone needs to do this, tho.
Something amazing about that BOOK. Do you know why it's called the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE?
It is filled with the names of those of us who have LIFE, the LIFE of the BLESSED SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.
FULL of LIFE! Abundant LIFE! John 10:10 "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly." What does it mean to have LIFE more abundant?
To be FULL of the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD, and to have HIS name written on our foreheads though the circumcision not made with hands Colossians 2:11 "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" May we endeavor to keep to HIS fullness for we are complete in HIM. Colossians 2:10
Being renewed day by day. 2 Corinthians 4:16
Our hope is in JESUS, and not in the things of this world. So, yes, we prepare, and we equip ourselves as soldiers in the army of God, prepared for battle. Yet, we lean NOT on our own strength, but on His everlasting arms, because He is our strength, our shield.
We study to show ourselves approved of GOD. For we are not those who seek honor from men, but the honor that comes from God alone, and he gives us favor. "So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man." Proverbs 3:4
He is the MASTER potter, and we are the clay. May our lives be honorable unto Him, and him alone. For He alone is worthy to be praised. I magnify His name. His glorious name JESUS. All powerful is our LORD, and Savior Jesus Christ.
The grace of our Lord and Savior be with you. Amen
This is not done by an alter call or an profession but by the Spirit of God that searches the heart.
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 3:1
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Ephesians 4:24
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Life begins here as a babe in Christ,
God bless you for this all important portion of scripture.
If this is not gotten right nothing else matters.
We cannot say Satan made me do it, we are responsible if we sin.
What is death? Is it just the body that dies and our conscious soul, lives on somewhere outside the body? This started when the serpent said to Eve, Ye shall not surely die, you will be as gods. Most pagan religions have an afterlife where the soul lives forever. In the Bible, the OT is the word Sheol meaning the grave and death was sleep with no knowledge or consciousness, nowhere is the immortal soul in the Bible.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they were taken out of the garden and forbidden eternal life/immortality from the Tree of Life, Gen. 3:24. When the OT was translated into Greek Sheol became Hades with the Greek meaning that came with it, and in English, it's Hell with the same Greek meaning, the soul separates from the body and the conscious souls goes to a place of the dead. Many believe there is either eternal life with Jesus or eternal damnation in Hell/lake of fire where they will be tormented for eternity.
If we say our soul is immortal, we are saying we are gods because we cannot die. But the Bible says without the gift of eternal life given to us in the resurrection we will die the second death, we will perish, be destroyed forever to be no more. Romans 6:23 Psalms 37:10-13 Psalms 92:7 Proverbs 10:25, 29 John 3:16 2 Peter 2:10-12, they are mortal and will perish.
The unrighteous will be destroyed/perish, they will have their part in the lake of fire, Rev. 21:8. Their death is forever, not forever in torment. When we die our destiny is fixed, there is not a second chance after death. This adoption of the Greek philosophy of the immortal soul and Hades fogs our understanding, it plugs our ears that are to hear.
I could say more but I will leave it here, I hope you will study for the truth. We should empty our minds in prayer where we are open to the truth given by the Spirit of Truth, not led by the traditions of men, Colossians 2:8.
RLW
Thanks for your explanation of 'abrogation' Daruled. Though I understand what you're writing, I still can't see how if 'you don't believe in it' (i.e. in this instance by my use of it), yet I can still "use it correctly". Therefore, Matthew 5:18 as you quoted, is of no problem to me as I read that Jesus was born "under the Law ( Galatians 4:4), to redeem them that were under the law" ( Galatians 4:5). He came as a Jew, abiding by the Laws & all the ceremonial requirements, as the Old Covenant was still in force. And as He said, "I am not come to destroy (the Law), but to fulfil"; His purpose was not to remove the Law but to fulfil its demands perfectly (and so He did in His Life & in His Death). He could not be accused to have broken any Law, even though the religious leaders had much to accuse Him of according to their interpretations & inclusions within the Law. They might even have thought of this Man, with this new teaching, as an opponent to 'their brand' of Laws & thus undermining their hypocritical regime. But Jesus said that the true Law's destruction wasn't His purpose of coming.
But when the Work at the Cross was fully accomplished, the Law that once only led to death giving no hope, was nailed to the Cross ( Colossians 2:14), thus bringing an end to both it & the Old Covenant under which it was enshrined. To Page 2.
You wrote "Yes it is the 4th Commandment. Regarding the Sabbath scripturally, this is directly from God."
There are several scriptures here that do not lend support to your position regarding Christians having to maintain the Sabbath. Not to mention the entire book of Galatians weighing in on the law.
Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
2 Corinthians 3:7-11 (AMP)
7 Now if the dispensation of death engraved in letters on stone [the ministration of the Law], was inaugurated with such glory and splendor that the Israelites were not able to look steadily at the face of Moses because of its brilliance, [a glory] that was to fade and pass away,
8 Why should not the dispensation of the Spirit [this spiritual ministry whose task it is to cause men to obtain and be governed by the Holy Spirit] be attended with much greater and more splendid glory?
9 For if the service that condemns [the ministration of doom] had glory, how infinitely more abounding in splendor and glory must be the service that makes righteous [the ministry that produces and fosters righteous living and right standing with God]!
10Indeed, in view of this fact, what once had splendor [the glory of the Law in the face of Moses] has come to have no splendor at all, because of the overwhelming glory that exceeds and excels it [the glory of the Gospel in the face of Jesus Christ].
11 For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!
Also, Romans 8:1-4 (KJV)
The book of Galatians addressed this legalism, and one might conclude that Paul defeated the teachers of legalism so effectively that the issue would never trouble the church again. History and experience prove otherwise! Legalism has become so important a part of Christendom that most people believe that it actually belongs.
Let's examine them one at a time. In regards to 1 John 2:4
Those who understand "knowing" in reference to salvation insist that assurance of salvation comes by obeying either the Old Testament laws or the commands of Christ in the New Testament. Those of the Reformed covenant persuasion generally see commandments as referring to the Ten Commandments, which they believe are still binding on believers as a rule of life. Interestingly, the word translated commandments is not the Greek nomos, which John reserves for the Mosaic Law. It is rather entole, meaning order, command, or change. Dispensationalists, on the other hand, do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life, as the way by which God deals with His people ( 2Co 3:7-11; Heb 7:11-14).*[For a full discussion of the contrasts between covenantism and dispensationalism, see Renald E. Showers, There Really Is a Difference (Bellmawr, NJ "Twenty-First Century Biblical Commentary". Marion, IA: Laridian, Inc., 2021.
All Scripture including all of Paul's letters to the churches are inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and Jesus do not contradict each other. Paul wrote in Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Hence why majority of Christians do not believe the Law of Moses is binding upon believers today as a rule of life, as the way by which God deals with His people ( 2Co 3:7-11; Heb 7:11-14).
Colossians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
As I pointed out in another comment, we must be extremely careful when talking about the God Head, as our finite minds cannot fully grasp the Nature of Infinite God. We read the Bible and accept what we read by faith without attempting to go beyond that. And there is no question that Jesus, the Lord Jesus Christ, was and is Eternal God Himself.
I am a bit shocked by you statement. And that is absolutely not what the Bible teaches. In the first place if Jesus was not God, He could not have paid for the sins of anyone by enduring the Wrath of God, eternal death required by the Law of God and then have risen again.
Here are just a couple of verses that militate against what you are suggesting:
Speaking of Jesus, we read in Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLETH ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY.
And then in John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
And there are others, like John 1:1-5.
Now you do make a very interesting point about Jesus being called the "SON" of God, and "BEGOTTEN" of the Father. There is no question that Christ existed from Eternity past as Eternal God Himself and will continue to exist throughout Eternity future as Eternal God Himself. But it is fair to ask the question, When did Christ "become" the Son of God? Because the word "Begotten" signifies a "beginning". I submit that Christ became the Son of God when He rose from the Dead. But Jesus is referred to as the Son of God even before going to the Cross here on earth. Without getting into a detailed discussion, I think the case can be made that Christ was, very literally, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" Rev13:8.
To be continued