Daniel
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Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.
Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.
I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.
God bless,
RLW
We must always remember that any truth we may have come to is not because we are smarter or wiser than any one else. It is God Himself that must reveal truth to us from His Word, if indeed He has. And He will do that in accordance with His good pleasure on His time table, not ours.
I will say that I did not come to my beliefs regarding the nature of God's Judgment and Salvation Programs and my current understanding of end time events and what God declares about the churches and congregations of our day, solely by my own personal study while isolated somewhere in an ivory tower. But I have been blessed by faithful Bible teachers that have diligently searched the scriptures faithfully applying the principles of Bible interpretation that God has given us in the Bible itself. Some of that teaching can be found today in the ministry of SearchingHisWord and Alameda Bible Fellowship as I referenced previously.
We must also recognize that there are certain truths that could not be understood even by True Believers until we approach the time of the end as we read in Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
And Habakkuk 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
So if there was ever a time when we should be "searching the scriptures to see if these things be so", it is now.
Now, I have a query on what you had earlier written (& now), in discussion with Jema a few days ago: "So when we look at the nature of God's Judgment program very carefully, we find that the Final Punishment is annihilation, that is destruction". And I quote this as you also shared here, "When was the last time you heard a sermon that focused on the Judgment and Wrath of God for sin?" Obviously, I think I have misunderstood you, where it appears that you believe that the final state of man is, either he's enjoying eternal life with the Lord, or a cessation of all existence (annihilation, as you put it). And then the "Wrath of God for sin" as you now stated. Without making any further assumptions, maybe you could clarify your belief, as in my mind I'm unable to reconcile the two statements.
I believe that Matthew 10:28 was quoted as a reference to the complete destruction of soul & body, to which the Greek word does support; as it does to John 3:16 ("perish"), Romans 2:12, 1 Corinthians 8:11, 2 Peter 3:9, and many others. But reference wasn't made to Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:8,9; Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:7; Revelation 20:10,14,15; & others. In the light of these other Scriptures as well as the essence of the Gospel message which requires an eternal suffering, or else we don't have any Good News of salvation to give, how should we understand your statements? Blessings.
Rewards in heaven
Genesis 15:1 is the only scripture I have found that shows that God Himself is our reward. Certainly it is enough; and will be enough for those saved even without receiving rewards to know that He fulfilled what was needed on their behalf despite only getting to heaven as though "through the fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Hebrews 11:6 states that we MUST believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. That is part of the nature of God; and should help us desire to see our brothers and sisters exalted and rejoice in the small ways God can use our service to help build them up in the faith. The admonition of Revelation 3:11 should also keep us pursuing the Lord until the end as we can lose our rewards to another if not careful.
I have probably discussed before several pasages on the type of rewards due to particular service which we do based (hopefully) on our gifts and calling. The reader can look up passages related to faithful preaching of the Word (and the more stringent judgments attached to that responsibility); those who patiently await His coming as Malachi 3 discusses with the book of remembrance and other verses talking about patient endurance until the end; and of course rewards for the martyrs for Christ.
These would no doubt represent levels of authority in some respect in heaven; and I have also brought up the verses in regard to ruling few or many cities; also we could look at 1 Cor. 5:41 for that. We should also note the reward of the evangelist those who lead many to righteousness shining as the stars in Daniel 12:3. That could also refer to end time events as with that of the great multitude martyred seen in heaven in association with the 144,000 taken from the Great Tribulation ( Rev. 7:9).
To be continued.
Christ is the author of the whole Bible. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:1,14
"Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" 2 Peter 1:21
Christ spoke in parables, earthly stories with a heavenly meaning. "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." Mark 4:34
We compare spiritual with spiritual. "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation employed by the churches seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual to discover the underlying gospel message.
Moreover, the churches fail to recognize that as we approach the end of the world, where we are today, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.
"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."
"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry." Habakkuk 2:2-3
There has been a great deal of dialogue on this site recently regarding the authority of various translations of the Bible. Following is my understanding and belief:
1. Every single word and phrase in the original Hebrew and Greek is exactly the word and phrase that God chose to be included as His Holy Word. In other words, God is the One and Only Author of the BiblePaul, Jeremiah, Mark, Isaiah, etc. were inspired scribes taking what can be characterized as "dictation" from God Himself. Any other view has the result of diminishing the absolute authority of the Bible, no matter how we would argue that point.
2. God has guided and preserved the manuscripts that we currently have, and that were used by the King James translators (maybe others) and are 100% faithful to the original Words of God Himself.
3. The job of the translator, while not inspired as the original scribes like Paul and Jeremiah, etc., is to be as faithful as possible to a WORD FOR WORD translation. This is why the King James translators used italics to represent words that they added in order to make the sentence structure flow more easily in the translation.
4. In the English language, God has graciously given us in recent times, concordances and interlinear Tools so that we can check out the King James translation with the original Hebrew and Greek. That is what was to be done by the churches, and anyone that claims to be a teacher of the Bible.
5. Unfortunately, Very little intensive serious Bible study has been done by the churches and denominations after establishing their initial confessions and creeds. Sadly, this is the reason there were and are so many different understandings of various doctrines being taught in the churches. The Bible has lost it's Authority in the churches.
6. God has sealed up certain truths in the Bible that are being revealed only in our day as we approach the end. Daniel 12:9
7.THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY IS THE WORD OF GOD.
This is a very long thread which I have not read through and do not plan to. I will just say this.
If we hope to come to truth, we must start with the understanding the Bible is the very WORD OF GOD. That is, in the original Hebrew and Greek every word and phrase is from the Mouth of God. God did not merely plant thoughts and ideas in the minds and hearts of Paul and Peter and Isaiah and Jeremiah, etc. and then guide them to write in their own style so that we cannot compare a word or phrase in Romans to Peter or Jeremiah or Isaiah. Some would teach this but it is not so. The Bible has ONE AND ONLY ONE AUTHOR. And that is God Himself.
This means that we want a translation that is as faithful on a word by word basis to the original languages as possible. Even if the translators did not understand precisely what God was teaching in a particular passage.
I am not a Bible scholar, but my understanding is that, in the English language, the King James version comes closest to this principle.
Fortunately, in our day, God had given us tools like concordances and interlinears so that we, and especially anyone that claims to be a teacher, can check out the translation of any word or phrase from the original languages where those words and phrases are used by God throughout the Bible.
In approaching the Bible we must understand that the Bible is its own interpreter as we compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God declares in the Bible itself. And that, particularly in our day, God is revealing or clarifying certain truths from the Bible that were there all the time but it had not been God's time to reveal them to believers ( Daniel 12:9).
Ultimately it is God Himself that leads us into truth as we search the scriptures applying the principles that God Himself declares in His Word.
The last day has been going on for 2000 years, Paul understood he was living in the last day.
The word of God is written to each person; as you study and read, it's YOU, his church, the SPIRIT of Christ is speaking to, not a collective BODY, your the body of Christ.
Revelation is the revealing of Jesus Christ TO YOU; his church, his bride.
That (Christ) WHICH IS, and WAS, and WILL BE.
The words of Revelation mean the same TO YOU as it did to the person reading them 1900 years ago.
The words in Revelation are; ALSO, prophecies found in Mosses and the Prophets, Revelation is just a second witness.
In Matthew Jesus said, to be AWARE of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel
The prophecy says the messiah will be CUT OFF in the middle of the week, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, his happened at his death and resurrection.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be TAKEN AWAY (Christ become the once for all sacrifice) and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days,
This 1290 days is the same 3 1/2 years spoken of in Revelation, the second witness.
The BEAST with seven heads and ten horns is also spoken of in Daniel.
Daniel 7:23 ...the FORTH BEAST shall be the forth (and last) kingdom on earth ....
The kingdom of Babylon (1st), the Medes and Persians (2nd), the kingdom of Grecia (3rd) and the KINGDOM OF GOD the 4th BEAST.
Luke 16:16 the law and prophets were until John, since that time the kingdom of God is preached ....
The forth BEAST: the kingdom of God has been on earth since John and will never cease to be, WHICH IS, and WAS and WILL BE: the last day, the sixth day in Genesis when man was CREATED by his resurrection with CHRIST.
God bless you.
The Bible says we will sleep until Christ's return:
Daniel 12:2
Job 14:12
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 15:18-20
Matthew 9:24
A common reason why people assume they go straight to heaven is misinterpreting 2 Cor 5:8-10. The misinterpretation has been repeated so much its become standard dogma to many well meaning Bible readers. But the only problem is the Bible doesn't say that. Paul only says he'd "rather" absent from the body and present with the Lord. The word Rather is a preference. He's not making a broad statement about the afterlife that 100% of the time, when 100% of all people die, that instantly you skip judgment and are immediately with the Lord 100% of the time.
Adding further support to this is Paul in the previous book in 1 Corinthians 5:3 already said he was "absent" from the body when he couldn't meet with the Corinthians in person. Based on the same wording used, I think people are extrapolating way too much from Paul's preferential (rather) statement while ignoring the verses that already say everyone will face judgment and all the sleeping until Christ returns, etc. I would find it hard to ignore 5 verses in favor of one "rather" statement that Paul already used before. Paul also preferred everyone remain single like him- so the inferences seem to be disproportionately applied.
God bless.
Show me the scripture that says there is a single antichrist.
All of Revelation has been explained in Moses and the Prophets,
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do NOTHING, but he REVEALETH to his servants the PROPHETS.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice (replaced by Christ being the LAMB) BE TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.
42 months, 3 1/2 years, this is the same 42 months in Revelation, Christ ministry on earth.
God Bless You!
The bible is precious n holy...but the book in the right hand of the father cd not be opened till the 7 seals were broken...Which are spritual seals not anything to do with literal seals....The writen word...Nothin availeth anything in Christ Jesus but a new Creature... Gal 6:15....Not circumcision nor uncircumcision but only by that New Creature...Which is our new innerman the H.G. That Child of Promise....A baby Christ in the spirit...She brought forth a manchild which is gonna rule all nations...Which is that spirit of truth that is gonna reprove the whole world of sin and righteousness, judgement.
> Christ is the author of the WHOLE Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience. This method, however, fails to recognize that GOD is the AUTHOR of the WHOLE Bible and that the WHOLE Bible is written for us TODAY.
Moreover, as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God did not write the Bible so that it is easy to come to truth. Faithful Bible teachers that apply these principles can guide us in our understanding.
But THE BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTIRETY must be our ultimate authority as we compare scripture with scripture praying that God in His mercy would open our our understanding and lead us into Truth.
Not to debate just something to consider.
I know many have this understanding of this abomination of desolation and applying it to Daniel 9:27. As you said it is in Daniel 9:27 Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 and only in 11:31 and 12:11 does it say the abomination that maketh desolate.
As what happened in 167 BC with Antiochus Epiphanies committed two blasphemous acts in the second Jewish temple by setting up an altar to the Greek god Zeus and also, he sacrificed a pig on the altar, and much more, that is thought something similar will happen in the future with the antichrist.
The abomination of desolation is this horrible person or beast that will do this action that is vile, vicious or terrible in the temple that is said to be rebuilt that makes it desolate. This being is the one who does the act to make it desolate.
If we look at Daniel 9:27 it says, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." For the overspreading of abominations, this is saying because of abominations they have done, he shall make it desolate, not what he does makes it desolate.
Jesus disrobes this in Matthew 23:24-37, and He says what we read in Daniel 9:27. Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For their abominations Jesus is the one who makes it desolate for the overspreading of abominations they have done and their rejection of Him. "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. The Roman army and total destruction.
I agree they may flee from Judea in the future they did just before 70 AD the believers in Jesus fled to Pella a region across the Jordan river and were saved.
Just something to consider.
God bless,
RLW
You mention "Hermeneutics". That is that key. The churches pretty much without exception and throughout the Bew Testament period have used the historical-grammatical method of interpreting scripture.
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation employed by the churches seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that we are to compare spiritual things with spiritual to discover the underlying gospel message.
Moreover, the method of Bible interpretation employed by the churches fails to recognize that as we approach the end of the world, where we are today, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie.
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:2-3
Christ spoke in parables and without a parable spoke he not. That includes the language used by God in the Bible to convey actual historical events and prophecy.
Matthew 24:15 Therefore when YOU SEE the abomination of desolation; spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the HOLY PLACE (whosoever readeth, let him understand).
You are the HOLY PLACE, the temple of GOD.
Christ was talking to those around him, so this APPLIED to them, as well as us, it was AT HAND, near to be reality.
Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice (of animals) shall be TAKEN AWAY, and the abomination that maketh desolate SET UP, there shall be one thousand three hundred and thirty five days.
What is this 1,335 days? It's the changing of the COVENANTS, Christ coming as sinful flesh, and defeating
death; LIFE by Spirit, not blood.
Before the resurrection; LIFE was in the BLOOD, after the resurrecting, LIFE was from the Spirit.
Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE.
Man is THE HOUSE, now desolate without INHABITANT, it died on the cross.
Revelation 18:19 .....for in ONE HOUR (MAN, sinful fleshes death on the cross) is she made DESOLATE.
Revelation 17:17 ...and SHALL MAKE HER DESOLATE AND NAKED ..
Psalms 69:25 Let their habitation (house) be DESOLATE; and NONE dwell in their tents.
Isaiah 5:9 ...of a truth many houses shall be desolate ....
Are you DESOLATE; or has the Spirit of LIFE COME TO YOU?
Romans 8:2 For the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Christ Jesus, has made us FREE from the LAW of sin and death.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over HIS OWN HOUSE, whose house you are ...
You died on the cross; and become DESOLATE, no LIFE, you were raised a body, a new creation, life no longer of the blood; but OF THE LIFE OF CHRIST, by the Spirit of our Father.
Colossians 1:27 ...this mystery .....Christ in you ....
God Bless YOU!
Isaiah 45:4.
Part 1.
Romans 2:25-29.
Colossians 3:11-12
and Galatians 3:27-39
These scriptures can trip you up when we use them for doctrine when talking about NATIONAL ISRAEL.
Some day God will open the eyes of Israel to show them that all their services was pointing them through the same door that the Gentiles goes through to get to the father. "CHRIST".
There will be two folds that will come together under one shepherd. There's no advantage to either fold. That's what Colossians 3:11-12 and Galatians 3:27-39 is saying. Angels, People, The Church and Israel is called elect in the Bible.
Israel and the Church has different origins and has a different path and destiny.
( Don't mistake that for having a different path for salvation.)
They have a separate purpose. When Jesus speaks of Israel as his elect in Matthew 24. he speaks of Israel as a nation. National Israel.
The Church isn't National Israel or "The new Israel. Is the Church Jacob also?
They're both are Chosen or elected by God to do the will of God for different purposes.
The bible makes references to both National Israel and the remnant.
Paul makes that distinction in Romans when he says all Israel is not Israel and when he mentions Kinsman of the flesh. Paul hammers away at this in Romans chapters 9,10 and 11.
Daniel 12:1 Speaks of National Israel.
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the ( CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE ): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (THY PEOPLE) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
"Daniels people is not the Church"
See key verses Daniel 9:24-27 in
Part 2.
This form of self-transformation is also referred to as self-righteousness ( Romans 10-3), while in truth you follow after a image of a false god and a false Christ ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Gal. 4:8; Rev. 12:9). This is how Satan has transformed himself into an angel of light ( 2 Cor. 11:13-15) and deceived the whole world ( Rev. 12:9), as people by nature are in fact children of the devil ( Acts 13:10).
Gal. 1:11,12. The gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ ( Daniel 12:4,9; Amos 3:7; Matthew 16:17; Luke 2:26; Romans 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:10; Gal. 1:16; Eph. 3:3,5; Rev. 1:1).
The Word of God is God ( John 1:1) and the scriptural references we use serve as confirmation that it is not us that speak, but the Spirit of our Father that speaketh in us ( 2 Samuel 23:2; Matthew 10:20; Acts 4:8; 6:10).
Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it ( Matthew 7:14).
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11:11
After saying these things, he said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him."
Matthew 27:52
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised
Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been
Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O BARREN, thou that didst not bear, break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not TRAVAIL WITH CHILD: for more are the children of the DESOLATE ( Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:17) than the children of the married wife (Christ's bride, the virgin) saith the Lord (saith the WORD).
Isaiah 53:11 He (Christ) shall she the TRAVAIL of his BODY ( 1 Corinthians 12:27), and shall be satisfied: BY HIS KNOWLEDGE shall my (the Father's) righteous servant JUSTIFY MANY; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Micah 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a WOMAN IN TRAVAIL: for now thou shall go forth out of the city, and thou shall dwell in the field (like a beast), and thou shall even go to Babylon ( Revelation 18:4); THERE SHALL THOU BE DELIVERED; there shall the Lord redeem thee from the hand of your enemy (death).
God Bless You!
The following are the fundamental rules of Bible study that the Bible lays down:
> Christ is the author of the whole Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation employed by the churches seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that the Bible is written for us today.
Moreover, the method of Bible interpretation employed by the churches fails to recognize that as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God ultimately must lead us into truth as we apply these principles and pray for understanding with a view to being obedient to His Word.
From what we do now in the scriptures; he was a man who pleased God and "was not"; he was the first man to be translated to heaven; then Elijah later on. Since it appears Elijah is one of the 2 last prophets then it is clear that he has NOT received as yet a resurrection body. If the principle of Heb. 9:27 holds forth; then the same would be said of Elijah; and hence these would be the final 2 prophets. This is controversial; but bolstered by the fact that Christ was said to be the first of the firstfruits; ( 1 Cor. 15:23) which was followed apparently by a resurrection of some of the saints from the grave at that point ( Matthew 27:53). The Rapture is the next phase along with the Resurrection of all the church age saints (it appears that perhaps the rest of the O.T. saints are resurrected later on in the Tribulation when we look at Daniel 12:2.
What we do understand is how to be a man after God's own heart and how that qualifies us for the Rapture and to escape all things to come; as well as the multihued of ten thousand times ten thousand angels also bolstered by Revelation 5:11. There are other texts quoted in scripture that we don't have copies of; even with the sermon on Mars hill by Paul as well as his comment to the Cretians being greedy and gluttonous came from secular writers (not a pleasant message to hear is true; no doubt). Scripture as a whole is intertwined with numerous cross references (a Dake's bible has over 100,000!) Some of these of course are questionable but in scripture it is clear that "thus saith the Lord" means certain things indeed happened.
Today; we seem to think little on the next generation; hence kids have found that there isn't much value in their existence. With so many cut off before birth it is no wonder that kids would feel unvalued today and with such poor parenting skills undisciplined themselves. Hosea 4:6 indicates that because of a lack of knowledge people are perishing. Life is as a vapor as several scriptures indicate ( James 4:14). Not only are things accelerated today ( Daniel 12:4) but as I said in the last piece the value of everything has diminished. There will be no suffering loss; I assure you for cell phones; computers and other high tech entertainment sources NOT being present in heaven. We need to be careful in earthly treasures as well (See Luke 16:11); such behaviors show what is really in our hearts as to our conduct in this world.
In light of these facts; do we consider how great it is that we are saved from having to be in an unregenerate state for all eternity? Isaiah 66:4 describes how God "chooses their delusions" and later on at the end of that chapter a vivid description of hell is given. Phillipians 1:21 states that Paul said "to live is Christ; to die is gain." and other verses show that it is better to be in the house of mourning rather than mindless happiness ( Ecclesiastes 7:2).
In light of all this; we do well to see how we approach the House of Worship but also how we live out the rest of the week. It is sad today how many people insist on having beepers and other cell phone distractions interrupt the services. Personally; I feel a need to have a cell phone only in case my elderly parents have an emergency at home. That was the original use of "beepers". For every moment here on earth there are eternal ramifications; we need to focus on working while it is yet day ( John 9:4). As for Christ it is also for us in that respect our time to serve here is short and we need to focus on the Great Commission.
The following are the fundamental rules of Bible study that the Bible lays down:
> Christ is the author of the whole Bible. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
> the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:21
> Christ spoke in parables (earthly stories with a spiritual meaning). But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. Mark 4:34
> We compare spiritual with spiritual. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13
The historical-grammatical method of interpretation employed by the churches seeks to discover the writer's intended meaning, customs of the times, and the writer's intended audience and thus fails to recognize that God is the author and that the Bible is written for us today.
Moreover, the method of Bible interpretation employed by the churches fails to recognize that as we approach the end of the world, and the coming of the bridegroom, God is unsealing truths that have been kept sealed until the time of the end ( Daniel 12:9-10). This is spoken of in the Bible as a vision that will speak at the end and not lie ( Habakkuk 2:2-3).
God ultimately must lead us into truth as we apply these principles and pray for understanding with a view to being obedient to His Word.
One general rule that I believe needs to be practiced is to take any scripture as literally and specifically as possible unless otherwise indicated (such as overt symbolism which is usually defined within the passage as such and the meaning intended).
John 7:38 about "rivers of living water" would be such an example. Ezekiel 47; however gives no indication of the need to make the "fresh water" and the very literal descriptions within the text as being anything but an actual event. In other words; it SHOULDN'T be a cross reference to the John 7:38 verse. We can see even currently fresh water that comes from underground sources that is infiltrating into the Dead Sea; just as we can see the desert starting to bloom as described in Isaiah 35:1. If that verse is taken literally the other should be as well.
There are other things such as 1 Peter 2:9 (cross referenced with Deut. 14:2) that are describing in context the church in the same light as God was delineating His chosen people within the nation of Israel. In both cases there is a REMNANT who are truly called and chosen. Romans 10 describes how we are grafted in and there is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile; however the very next chapter shows how eventually the veil is lifted and the blindness of the Jews will change ( Romans 11:25). Isaiah shows how eventually the Gentiles will be blessed; and Zechariah shows how the nation will have to be broken enough to finally recognize their Messiah. The problem in all the cases I've mentioned so far is not the validity of a parallel passage existing but the application of it.
There certainly are cases where things are referred to as cross references when they are really not. Daniel 12:4 is not really tied into any other specific scripture; but in this case the application can be exaggerated especially when other verses that sound similar are referring to another historic event. Nahum 3 is case in point.
In Revelation 3:5, John gives an exhortation to the church. He says, "He that overcomes, and that's a Present Participle.
To the one who (is) overcoming, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will (not) blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
We are given references to the Old Testament that tell us there's more than one book. ( Exodus 32:32-33, Daniel 12:1-2, 7-10, Psalm 69:28)
There's the book of life which has listed in it everybody that has received human life. And then there's the book of the Lamb, those who belong to Christ.
In the book of life, if a person rejects Christ, their name is removed from the book of life as if they've never been born. They're gone!
But no one is ever blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
If you go back into the Old Testament and you study from those references, it will show you that there's more than one book. And the Jews knew that.
It's not that God has books up there. But it's just a human example or an illustration that God knows everything, all the people that have been born, and all the people that belong to Christ.
He say (I will not) blot out his name out of the book of life. And I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Jesus said that He would do that.
So, our names are entered into the Lamb"s book of life the moment we receive Christ. He will never blot out a believers name from that book. That's how permanent our salvation is. He will never blot our names out of His book!
We see a lack of wisdom of any ssort these days as we continue to increase in knowledge exponentially (shades of Daniel 12:4). In one sense; we cannot rely on our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-6) but on God alone. There are certain principles whether of law; crops; finances or other things which all those under the sun are embarked in to one degree or another with whatever freedoms God allows. We certainly cannot operate against human wisdom or our conscience when we don't do something we know we are supposed to do ( James 4:17). As with anything else there are extremes we should try to avoid. Christ; for instance when He was on earth told those He sent forth two by two not to bring much along with them ( Mark 6:8); but later once He was preparing for His departure the instruction changed ( Luke 22:36). This included money; clothes and a weapon for protection from thieves. We have two major things that we need to avoid; the first being seeking things for ourselves outside the will of God or trying to "help God" by speeding up the process. Having the understanding that everything belongs to God and that we take nothing into this world and cannot take anything out helps a great deal ( 1 Timothy 6:7). The second thing is not laying down our life for the Lord. At the extreme this would be martyrdom; but everyday tests where we choose to serve others above our own desires we "die a little" bit at a time as we carry our cross daily. Things like marriages of course can be a major factor and in some cases individuals who can remain chaste can be in unique advantages for unfettered service toward the Lord. Again; as with anything else I have seen more than enough Godly Christian marriages where more than sufficient attention is paid to the wife and children along with a generous amount of time dedicated to corporate worship; prayer; evangelism and small group studies. Being equally yoked of course works this out best.
This is not a salvation issue and shouldn't cause divisions within the body, but yes, I believe you are interpreting the Bible correctly. In my opinion theree is much stronger Biblical support for this compared to the idea of Christians going direct to heaven as they die. Someone can simply make a list and there are probably more than double the amount of verses supporting that someone will wait in sleep for Jesus to return than to go to heaven immediately. It also makes more logical sense as it would seem weird for Christians to go to heaven and skip judgment when it says everyone will be judged, and everyone in this case means everyone- and it also says it will happen on the same day: the day of judgment, which wouldn't exactly happen if people periodically went to heaven randomly. It would not make as much logical sense if Christians went to heaven only to return back to earth in the grave to rise, then meet Jesus, then go back to heaven a 2nd time. Whereas, the alternative seems to both fit scripture and be more logical too.
John 5:28-29
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
Daniel 12:2
1 Corinthians 15:6
1 Corinthians 15:51
etc
The support for the other perspective is the thief on the cross through an assumption that this is a template for all of mankind to follow and no exceptions and that paradise is the same is heaven. The second is that when Paul said he'd rather be away from his body and with the Lord that one assumes his preference means reality for all, and assumes that him wanting to be with the Lord means there's no waiting period. Of course when someone sleeps in death it likely won't seem like waiting, just like when we sleep on earth we usually aren't conscious a full 8 hours waiting to wake up. God bless.
That's the way I have it as well.
On the Matthew 24:31-46 I think I was responding to Gigi.
Her quote;
By GiGi
The most consistent view in the church over the centuries was that the rapture happens on the Last Day, as Jesus said in Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:29-31. Even Daniel was told that he would arise on the Last Day in Daniel 12:13. This is why I believe that Jesus comes back only once again and will gather believers to Himself on the Last Day.
End quote.
My point was that Matthew 24 was not about the rapture.
Those taken away are gathered for judgment.
She's rapturing the wrong group!
Some say that the tribulation is a time of testing for God's people. Who and what is being tested? God's grip?
We must consider these verses. John 10:28-29.
I John 4:4.
Matthew 28:20.
John 14:18-20.
Ephesians 3:30.
Jude 1:24-25.
Philippians 1:6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST:
So it's obvious God is not testing a spirit filled vessel.
TRIBULATION.
This is mentioned in Daniel 12 where a specific time period is mentioned and Jesus confirms it in Matthew 24:15-21. This tribulation is to come upon the whole world. This is not the persecution ( By the world ) promised to the Church in Matthew 5:10 and other places.
There's a huge difference between persecution by the world and tribulation ( UPON ) the world.
Millennium.
Where does Christ thousand years reign here on earth fit in their theology?
My reason for asking is they are split in this view.
If you say the rapture comes after the tribulation and you use Matthew 24 to authenticate that, When is the thousand years reign of Christ here on earth?
Why would you rapture people out of the Millennium?
Some hold the view the Millennium has already begun and the Church will usher in the Millennium by preaching the Gospel.
They say there is no rapture.
Continue this weekend.
God bless.
You probably don't need these admonitions. That is a hard saying; how God is impartial. He will bless those who bless Him; and curse those who curse Him. It seems you have a great desire for the Word; and having a husband in the faith; hopefully you are growing as well in the role God has given you in this life. It is the fact that those who are hundredfold that have the greatest rewards is simply God's character being reflected; as well as gaining more "interest" as it were because of heavenly rewards. He who sows in tears will reap in joy. ( Psalm 126:5-6). It goes against the flesh to invest time and energy and finances in ministry for the Lord but we are told that we MUST believe that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him ( Heb. 11:6). These crowns of course extend to those who patiently hope and wait for His coming; those in leadership over the church (held to a higher standard); a special one for martyrs; and several other designations. We may cast our crowns at His feet but as adopted children we have eternal promises and positions. It is hard to say in eternity as compared to the Millennium the differences in rulership; etc. Obviously it is better to be a doorkeeper in the house of God than to be lost and cast out.
It is not taught today how some will make it through the Bema suffering loss getting in as through the fire ( 1 Cor. 3:15). Revelation 3:11 is not taught much either. One of my frequent comments on that is that if I fail I'd better be honored to see someone else exalted due to my lack of service. God will use anyone as a method of spreading salt and light; some sowing others reaping the benefits.
Sad truth today is that there are few who can discern those who are shining as the stars among the masses of confessing Christians ( Daniel 12:3 associated with leading many to righteousness).
Agape; Rich P