Discuss Daniel 12 Page 5

Hi Gigi.

Part 4.

In Revelation 19:17-21 you see the parallel verse " Where the eagles gather as mentioned in

Matthew 24:28.

No mention of the removal of saints. If the saints were raptured and everyone else cast into hell and this is the last day on earth as you presented Who's going to populate the Millennium?

In Revelation 20 you see the Millennium reign of Christ and the great white throne judgment.

Let's use Daniel 12:13 you provided to see who the elect is in these scriptures.

Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time THY PEOPLE shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Who's Daniels people? Israel.

Who's gathered from the four corners of the earth? Israel.

Isaiah 11:9-12.

Ezekiel 34:11-14.

Daniel is not talking about the Church.

The tribulation will drive Israel to their Messiah.

Hosea 5:15. I will go and return to my place, TILL THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR OFFENCE, AND SEEK MY FACE: IN THEIR AFFLICTION THEY WILL SEEK ME EARLY.

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, YE SHALL NOT SEE ME HENCEFORTH, TILL YE SHALL SAY, BLESSED IS HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

This means when they behold him as a nation.

God bless.

Hi Gigi.

Part 3.

Again I'm not saying this researching is bad but when you build your theology off historical research you will find that there is arguments for both sides and often for several sides on every topic.

It's not the way we're prompted to study the Bible.

There's a danger you will fall in the hands of doctrines of men and traditions.

There is more to teaching the Bible than reading scripture and giving a perspective that you adopted from researching history throughout the church age because it don't cause you to understand scripture!!

It hinders spiritual growth and causes one to have a carnal approach in their display of doctrine and misuse of scripture no matter how long they study this way.

When or if one research history for "whatever" concerning doctrine, revelation of truth is always given by the Holyspirit not by the scribe.

So be sure and use convincing scriptures when you go into a debate or rebuttal saying ones view is not supported by scripture.

This is not about whether you are right or wrong because even when you are right about a matter you authenticate it by what you "believe" was taught by the early church as your reasoning. That doesn't always seal the deal when your explanation and rebuttal doesn't go into debth using scripture. It's just argumentive.

With that being said let's look into the scriptures you provided supporting the rapture coming at the second coming.

Luke 21:27.

Matthew 24:29-31.

Daniel 12:13.

When dealing with Luke and Matthew "Notice who's being removed" In Matthew 24:37-39 it says "as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Who's eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

AND KNEW NOT UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME, AND TOOK THEM ALL AWAY?

This speaks of judgment, it's not the rapture of the Church.

This contradicts

1 Thessalonians 5:2-9.

see part 4.

Hi Gigi

Part 1.

You stated.

Hello Patrick, What you are identifying is "dispensationalism", and yes, IT HAS NOT BEEN TAUGHT THROUGHOUT CHURCH HISTORY. (You can search ONLINE) on the subject. You can find on the site testallthingsDOTcom articles concerning this viewpoint that introduced the pre-tribulation rapture into Christian thought in the 1800's by Irwin and Darby in Ireland. Irwin learned of it from the writings of a Jesuit priest from Spain.

Then you stated on a separate post.

IT IS TRUE THAT THERE WERE SOME IN THE EARLY CHURCH WHO BELIEVED IN A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.

The most consistent view in the church over the centuries was that the rapture happens on the Last Day,

( You seem to contradict yourself in your rebuttal.)

Then you went on to say;

" as Jesus said in Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:29-31. Even Daniel was told that he would arise on the Last Day in Daniel 12:13." Let's set that aside for now.

I believe scripture supports this and the early Church taught this throughout history; "as you seem to acknowledge to some degree."

Where part of the issue is during the reformation their wasn't much focus on eschatology. Their focus was on Justification. "And by the way they done a great job on that,"

But some accused the jews for the crucifixion even though Christ said for this purpose he came into the world.

Here's the issue.

There's some value in areas to research what the church believed throughout the centuries but when you leave off from studying the Bible and you use history to settle a debate you don't fall on solid ground.

That may work in our academic school system on history but not so well when studying the Bible, Especially when you have the same bible they had in your midst and the Holyspirit doing the teaching.

This method doesn't qualify one as a teacher but an historian.

Martin Luther protested for Justification by faith in the early 1500's. before then what was widely taught? Is it good to hold those diverse views?

c part 2.

Chris,

It is true that there were some in the early church who believed in a pre-tribulation rapture. The most consistent view in the church over the centuries was that the rapture happens on the Last Day, as Jesus said in Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:29-31. Even Daniel was told that he would arise on the Last Day in Daniel 12:13. This is why I believe that Jesus comes back only once again and will gather believers to Himself on the Last Day.

Polycarp and Irenaeus may have spoken in regards to a pre-trib rapture, but the modern view in dispensationalism as promoted by Darby and Scofield are not identical to what Polycarp and Irenaeus taught. The interpretation of Darby is what is promoted and believed by many believers today. His theory began in the 1800's.

No, I would love to have one

Hi Dorthy,

The Bible says we will sleep until Jesus returns in the following verses and possibly more:

1 Cor 15:18-20

1 Thess 4:13-18

Job 14:12

Daniel 12:2

This scripture debunks what the other people are saying about people NOT sleeping to await Jesus. I believe what God says over what man says. Don't believe what I say either, but just look at God's truth and decide. But when I read these verses and pray about it its 100% clear what it means to me.

Those claiming immediate heaven may require ignoring these 4 verses and choosing only 2 scriptures and interpret them too broadly: (1) the one where Paul says he'd "rather" be with the Lord. Paul only states his preference. I prefer to be with the Lord too, but that doesn't automatically mean 100% of all people forever will skip judgement and be in heaven immediately. And (2) the verse about Jesus telling the criminal on this day he'll be in paradise doesn't automatically mean 100% of all people will have this, and doesn't invalidate the other 4 verses where it clearly says we'll "sleep" awaiting Jesus, and paradise is a different word than heaven and some think it might even be a place of waiting.

Suggest just following the scriptures and praying for wisdom and understanding rather than believing any unscriptural opinions. God bless.

The same topic is also discussed here and probably other places too:

Link

Hello Richard

I don't argue that the 24 elders are represantatives of both OT and NT time

a. May Daniel 12:1 refer only to the living Jews at that time and not the ones that died before Christ(?)

B The original text doesn't make things clearer that the English text

c. I agree with you that those with the white garments are lukerwarm christians that didn't make it in the rapture (the 5 unwise virgins), but not only these, they are also people that listened to the angel's preaching and didn't accept the mark of the beast and were consequently slaughtered. Yes, rapture is a reward, so lukermarm christians will have a second chance to make it into eternal life, but it would be extremely hard to withstand the great tribulation. Often a thing is ignored. If the belief that the Holly Spirit is who restrains the antichrist is right, and the HS goes together with the church in Heaven, that means that the gospel as we know it now will not be valid. There will not be any more new birth, nor Baptism in the Spirit, nor sanctification by the Spirit, nor any kind of help from God, a whole new situation for those who stay behind. Salvation will now be aquired by choosing sides, together or against the antichrist, accepting or not accepting the mark. So, can we claim that salvation can be lost, since many that will be left behind will eventually accept the mark?

d. 1 Cor 3:15 about those escaping destruction as through fire is something to be considered before the rapture. The reward will now be rule over nations during the millenium. As it is obvious that since the Spirit goes up, obedience to God's Laws is almost impossible, one escaping from his passions, sinful conditions, will be almost impossible too. Serving God will be also impossible, anything that we consider that increases our wage in Heaven now will be removed. So martyrdom is now the only way to get a reward.

e. Can Hebrews 9:27 be appilied to people like Lazarus who was resurrected by Jesus?. He eventually died twice.

Daniel 12:1 admittedly is confusing as it would seem that the time of trouble when His people are raised when considering all the other events beforehand make it seem like the midpoint of the Tribulation. My point was that the 24 elders clearly represent all the saints; and it would make sense that it would be the O.T. and N.T. ones from "all nations". So somehow it is the literal elders as well as all those symbolized by all believers; that was my point; perhaps the original text is worded to make that point clearer than the translation. Whether those who have "fallen asleep" are Resurrected at the same time being part of the church age; or the O.T. saints are raised later on is a mystery to me. I suppose in some sense with the 2 prophets Elijah if not Enoch as well have the final Resurrection at the midpoint as Elijah never died (following the Hebrews 9:27 principal). Just thought of that. The other aspect which you haven't asked me about is my whole view that those in white garments after martyrdom represent believers who are lukewarm and left behind. I suppose that is contentious as well; given my reasoning and scripture as a whole it isn't worth dividing over; but I want to remain faithful to the text. As to the rapture being a reward and not a salvation issue; and how we define the wrath that we as a church aren't going to go through is a complex issue. I say this in all honesty for many now that is the only thing this side of heaven that will cause a real move of God; certainly that is the case for the Tribulation saints there will be a countless multitude. As to whether there is some overlap of the Age of Grace with the Tribulation is a tough subject. Surely; as Psalm 40 seems to implicate; many will see and fear when we are lifted up from the miry clay which could refer to the Rapture; as well as whatever provokes the Jews to jealousy ( Romans 11:14; also see Deut 32:21 I just found that also! Hope these things won't cause too much strife.

Revelation-introduction

The theme of "was; is and is to come" is seen in both Revelation 1:8 and 4:8. With the book of Revelation talking about the "Alpha and Omega" and describing the glorified Christ where John fell at His feet as though dead (1:17); not to mention the theme of His opening the seal judgments; being the sole victor at Armageddon; and ruling on earth it is inconceivable that some have actually suggested that Christ ISN'T the main theme of the whole book of Revelation.

The fate of every individual; whether taking the mark of the Beast or not; and of all who are saved or lost; what their judgments will be; and the absolute determination of the time and manner of judgments is determined by the Godhead alone; specifically the Father and Son. Only those who have the Spirit are those "wise who will understand". ( Daniel 12:10; to be read in context with the rest of the verse). God will indeed use the Tribulation to sanctify some; to do a quick work on the earth. But the unregenerate despite whatever facts that they have at their disposal curse God; and rebel against Him whether during the worst trial the world has ever seen ( Mark 13:19); as well as after the descendants of the survivors of the Tribulation into the Millennium who have the BEST world imaginable who follow Satan in the last rebellion.

The wicked truly will think they are doing God a favor in killing true believers ( John 16:2). We have seen these things before in history with martyrdom; but never at the scale and madness of the Tribulation. We need to see the intensity of that time as part of the great final harvest; a purification to finally wake up the nation of Israel (the one third who come to faith in Zech. 13:9) as well as bring in those of an uncountable number who hear the message of the 144,000 ( Rev. 7:9-17). The consummation of the ages brings His church back to rule and reign with Christ and then final judgment of the wicked. Then comes a sinless new heaven & earth.

Hi earl.

here in revelation 22:11 it says let him holy or unjust ect...still!

earl this suggests after this lifetime and after judgment.

( he that is unjust, let him be unjust "still:" and he which is filthy, let him be filthy... "still:"... and he that is righteous, let him be righteous... "still":... and he that is holy, let him be holy "...still".)

revelation 22:14-15 verifies that!

" blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life,...and may enter in through the gates into the city.....

"for without" are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

"after" this life some will remain righteousness that will enter in through the gates into the city.

and there are some who will remain unjust " the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." who will be without the city.

and revelation 21:8 tells us where they're going!

"but the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

also: revelation 20:13-15 states "and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." this suggests after this life!!

daniel spoke of this in daniel 12:2 "and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

this also suggests 2 groups after this life in an everlasting condition! ( unjust still and righteous still.)

jesus makes reference to 2 groups, 2 destinations after this life in

matthew 25:41-46.

and it's everlasting not a refining fire!!

come on earl let's humble ourselves and not get in the way of this great truth.

Sleep:

Daniel 12:2

Job 14:12

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

1 Corinthians 15:18-20

Matthew 9:24

Hello, the Bible says when we die we will enter a state to await Jesus's return then will face judgment all together. It's called judgment day. Matthew 12:36, Hebrews 9:27. There's no verse saying people get to skip this. There's no verse saying that all people go to heaven instantly, only to later travel back to earth into your body, then meet Jesus in the air, then to only go back to judgment after you've already been in heaven. It's not scriptural or logical and seems to require misinterpreting the following 2 verses, by cherry picking and broadly interpreting it as if it automatically represents all people and all circumstances.

"absent with body present with Lord" isn't in the Bible. That phrase has been changed from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord, regardless. Paul was only stating his preference. It doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.

Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell including Hitler? Jesus has the power to make exceptions and take people to heaven, but the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this word means a waiting area for the dead.

Lastly, these are only 2 verses requiring creative interpretation, but at least 5 verses say we'll be sleeping are straightforward. Which is true? Bible says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scripture either.

PROPHECY.....GBU For this timely Message....You are so right the manchild is our fruit unto God...The H.G....The result of the sower and his seed the words of God...That NEW BORN babe desiring the sincere milk of the word is the H.G...As Jesus said that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit which is the H.G.....Our new innerman....our new heart and new spirit...Being bornagain of an incorruptible seed the words of that New Covenant....The contents of that book that he wrote with his own blood.

.....Unless ya receive the KINGDOM of God as a lil Child you will in NO wise enter there in....Plz note the Kingdom of God does not come till the woman ( the world ) the bride births the Child the H.G...The Child of Promise....Yes indeed We are gonna see ALL men in travail and birth pains....Simply b/c of the Sower and his seed the contents of that Book...The New Covenant in his blood....The WORDS of WONDER that Daniel saw in Daniel 12:6 KJV. The Book ...Men and Woman are gonna birth a baby Christ which is the H.G..... Isaiah 49:23 kjv...Kings shall be your nursing Fathers and their Queens your nursing mothers etc...We are gonna have a baby Christ which is the H.G. As that which is BORN of the spirit is spirit which is the H.G. Emanuel....Ya gotta realize that the Sower of the good seed is the Bridegroom thus the wheat is the H.G. a Baby Christ...The Kingdom....Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child...You will in no wise enter there in....This is how we know without a doubt that Jesus is truly God the Son....He reproduces after the God kind Spirits the H.G.is God....When he breathe on them he was reproducing very God with his breath which was his WORDS his Seeds....Thats y he told them b/c i have spoken these words sorrows have filled your hearts....Then he tells them of a Woman in travail and birth pains... John 16 ...B/C of his words/seeds but the Child didn't come till 50 day later at Pentacost th H.G. was born in them the Child of Promise...Behold the Promise.

Brother Richard:

The REVEALING of Christ was the 3 1/2 years he was IN FLESH on the EARTH.

Revelation 1:1 ...the REVELATION (revealing) of Jesus Christ ....reveals Christ and those 3 1/2 years; fulfilling the coming of the Kingdom of God.

The seven seals are already open, the seventh seal at Pentecost. All the answers are in the scriptures of prophecy.

Daniel 12:7 An I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand, and his left hand unto heaven, and swear by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time (one year), times (2 Years) and a half 1/2 year (1+2+1/2=3 1/2 years: prophecy; Christ in flesh); when he shall accomplish to SCATTER THE POWER of the holy people (his priests) ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.

John 19:30 And when Jesus had therefore received the vinegar ( Psalms 69:21), he said, IT IS FINISHED (prophecy fulfilled), and bowed his head, and gave up the ghost (the Spirit of his Father).

God Bless You.

Hi Nancy.

Daniel 12:11 is giving what is to take place the middle of the 70rh week of Daniel known as the Great Tribulation.

Jesus this as well in Mat 24:14-15. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) This is when the antichrist set up a Idol to be worshipped in the temple.

Let us know if this helps

God bless

I would like the last part of verse 11 chapter 12 explained. Ihank you

Amen Brother Alex, Revelation 5

Six seals (of the BOOK of life) were all opened, beginning with Christ ministry in the flesh and ending with his death and resurrection.

Between the sixth seal ( Revelation 6:12-17 Christ's death and resurrection) and the seventh seal ( Revelation 8:1 pentecost) there was silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; 45 days.

No activity (silence) of the Holy Ghost, for 45 days, from resurrection to pentecost.

The seventh seal was open at pentecost with the out pouring of the Holy Ghost.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be take away, and the abomination that maketh desolate BE SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

42 months; three and a half years, Christ's ministry in the flesh.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth (for the seventh seal), and cometh to the one thousand three hundred five and thirty days.

1335 minus 1290 equals 45 days: passover till feast of the first fruits ..... Pentecost .....Christ second coming and minstry as the Holy Ghost.

May God give us eyes to see and ears to hear.

God Bless you.

This topic is widely referred to or discussed in the Scriptures, but I'm unsure whether you're just wanting Scriptures relating to death or more specifically on the preparation to enter eternity. So here are a few Scriptures for you to look at:

Psalm 49:6-15; Psalm 116:15; Daniel 12:1-3; John 11:19-26; Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:12-58; Revelation 21:4.

People often ask, how can a loving God send someone to hell.

That's hard to accept, even in the Christian community. It's not uncommon for one to fashion doctrine to a more suitable doctrine for their itching ears.

If nothing else we have clarity the scripture warns us of these things.

Let's take a look at the nature of man apart from the Holy Spirit.

Here in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7. I believe we have the Holyspirit/restrainer being removed, "likely at the rapture" We see a series of evil events take place by the Antichrist.

"And now ye know what WITHHOLDETH that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: ONLY HE WHO NOW LETTETH WILL LET, UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY."

Now notice the ungenerated and unrepentant heart of man in Revelation 16:8-11.

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

And men were scorched with great heat, AND BLASPHEMED THE NAME OF GOD, WHICH HATH POWER OVER THESE PLAGUES: AND THEY REPENTED NOT TO GIVE HIM GLORY.

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; AND THEY GNAWED THEIR TONGUES FOR PAIN,

AND BLASPHEMED THE GOD OF HEAVEN BECAUSE OF THEIR PAINS AND THEIR SORES, AND REPENTED NOT OF THEIR DEEDS.

The ungenerated man has the same nature as his father Satan.

Daniel 12:2.

God bless.

Amen Brother Jesse.

These scriptures are clear! there's no way one can honestly deny or twist them.

And Daniel sums it up well also.

Daniel 12:9-10. And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Daniel was told these words would be sealed unto the END. They're to be unsealed here in

Revelation 22:10-11. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Here we see the same thing referenced in the old testament.

Both Daniel and John gives the contrast of the fate of two groups. This so-called refining fire has already past.

God bless.

Revelation 22:11.

A very tough verse to deal with.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

In the context of death and the end times, this is a dire warning. Unbelievers who reject the gospel do not receive a second chance to be saved if they die. Eternity does not change anyone's status. The person who dies in an unsaved condition will be unsaved throughout eternity, and the saved person will be saved throughout eternity.

When Jesus returns, He will reward the righteous but punish the unrighteous. Daniel 12:10 states that in the end time "Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly." Someday it will be too late for the unsaved to change their destination by repenting and believing in Jesus. Hebrews 3:15 implores: "Today, if you hear his voice., do not harden your hearts."

More to come.

God bless

Brother Jesse:

Revelation 13:5 And there was give him (man) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him for forty two months.

One thousand two hundred ninety days. Forty two months. Three and a half years. Christ ministry on earth.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time daily sacrifice shall be taken away (old covenant) and the abomination THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded (Christ's resurrection), ....saying, the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for the age of the age.

John 19:30 .....It is finished ......

Hebrews 2:8 ....we see NOT YET all things put under him.

You commented the other day that just because we don't believe, doesn't make it not so.

Christ said he speaks as if all things are done.

We should look at his words as if all things are done.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which believed (his words) do enter into rest ......the works were finished before the foundation of the world.

Philippians 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, AS I live saith the Lord, Every knee shall bow, and every tongues shall confess

to God.

It's this lake of fire (for our God is a consuming fire) that CAUSES Confession to salvation.

I'm out of characters, give your rebuttal and I will respond.

God Bless YOU!

Hi Dawn.

Michael the archangel seems to be a powerful militant angel in the behalf of Israel.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of "THY PEOPLE" and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:1.

Daniel 10:13.

Daniel 10:21.

However we know he is not Christ.

We can easily refute that here in Jude and in the book of Luke.

Here in Jude 1:8-9. you see Michael the archangel gives respect to dominion and says THE LORD REBUKE YOU.

Jude 1:9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Here in Luke 4:8. We see Jesus who created all things rebuke Satan.

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Michael the archangel is a created being.

"The Angel of the Lord is the pre incarcerated Christ. Who created all things.

Colossians 1:16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

John 1:3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God bless.

Hey Dawn Pattison,

Revelation 1:5 is about Jesus; He is the prince of the kings of the world. The word prince used is the Greek word archon meaning; ruler, governor, leader, leading man, no authority higher. God placed Jesus above all, Philippians 2:9, and He will reign until all enemies are put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25.

Michael is one of the chief princes, the only one called archangel, Jude 1:9 and the prince of the people of the house of Israel, Daniel 10:13-21. At the end we see that Michael will stand up, Daniel 12:1, also in Revelation 12:7-12 Michael and other angels cast Satan out of heaven down to this earth permanently.

God bless.

RLW

Richard:

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week....

This is talking about Christ confirming the NEW COVENANT.

From his entering into Jerusalem (Sunday)on the colt of and ass (prophecy) to his resurrection to LIFE (Sunday), ONE WEEK and the covenant was confirmed.

.......and in the midst of the week (the day he was crucified) he shall cause the sacrifice (old covenant) and obligation TO CEASE, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (no LIFE other than the LIFE OF CHRIST), even until the consumption, and that DETERMINED (judgement) shall be poured out on the DESOLATE (those not having THE LIFE OF CHRIST).

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice (old covenant) shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation SET UP, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

THREE and ONE HALF YEARS, Christ ministry in the flesh. FIRST COMING.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and COMETH to the one thousand three hundred thirty five days (PENTECOST), Christ ministry in the Spirit. SECOND COMING.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues shall see their dead bodies (sinful flesh, dead in trespasses) three days and a half (Christ betrayal to Christ resurrection) and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in the graves.

Revelation 11:11 and after three days and a half (laying in the grave with Christ) the SPIRIT OF LIFE from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet (these whose names are written in the BOOK OF LIFE, once dead, Now have THE LIFE OF CHRIST, and great fear fell upon them that saw them.

Revelation 20:9 Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.

God Bless YOU!

Jesus is powerful enough to make exceptions to whomever He wants, but He didn't say all thieves on crosses from now on will instantly go to heaven, or all criminals will go to heaven instantly upon death, or everyone death row will automatically go to heaven, or all Christians will go to heaven, or that all people will go to heaven instantly upon death. No, He only said to the one person next to Him that he's be in "paradise." The other thief didn't receive this.

Secondly, paradise could be a different place than heaven. Some think it may be a place for souls to wait until Jesus's return and judgment then salvation. That would make more logical sense, because Jesus said the dead will rise at that time to meet Jesus in the air then be judged. It doesn't make sense for anyone to skip judgment and go to heaven when they haven't even been judged yet, only to go back to earth in their body and repeat the process. The Bible says "all will be judged" on a particular day.

I personally believe what the Bible says in these verses:

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:18-20, Matthew 9:24.

Hi James.

Are you talking about Romans

11:5-7?

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

If so that's Israel.

Mathew 24:24.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

These verses seems to suggest the same.

Vs 16: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Vs 20: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Daniel 12:1.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for THE CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The children of Daniels people is Israel.

Israel is also called Gods elect throughout the Scripture.

Isaiah 45:4.

For Jacob my servant's sake, and ISRAEL MINE ELECT, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 65:9.

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

PARALLEL VERSES.

Isaiah 65:22.

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Jeremiah 30:7.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

God bless.

Genesis 1:31,

Genesis 1:7, could it be that because HE hadn't made the "lights in the Firmament" yet? Genesis 1:15-18, that it doesn't mention seeing it until Genesis 1:31. Could it also be because the firmament wasn't completed yet, & possibly rather empty?

Psalms 19:1, Daniel 12:3,

Hopefully this is helpful

Hi Naomi,

There was just a discussion related to this:

Link

I'm sure there's been many others in the past too if you do an advanced search for it.

The Bible says when we die we will enter a state to await Jesus's return then will face judgment all together. It's called judgment day. Matthew 12:36, Hebrews 9:27. There's no verse saying you get to skip this, and nothing saying you go to heaven then go back to earth into your body, only to go back to judgment after you've already been in heaven.

Daniel 12:2

Job 14:12

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

1 Corinthians 15:18-20

Matthew 9:24

Those who believe in instant heaven involves misinterpreting 2 key verses: 1. Misquoting Paul when he said he'd "rather" be in heaven (those sleeping in the grave haven't necessarily departed from their old bodies yet anyway), 2. Thief on cross when Jesus said that day he'd be in "paradise". Most ignore all the other verses above saying we will await Jesus's return, then have a day of judgment. God bless.

Sister GiGi: Revelation is very much ACTUAL; but the ACTUAL is hidden in symbols, metaphors, etc.

The seven seals were opened at the death and resurrection of Christ and pentecost, forty five days later.

Revelation 6

First seal white horse (Christ) to conquer (as Holy Ghost).

Second seal red horse (Satan to deceive the whole world)

Third seal, black horse, balances (judgement give to rightly divide the word of God)

Forth seal Death and the grave

Fifth seal Old testament saints awaiting Christ resurrection.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all (Old Saints) having obtained a good report through FAITH (given to them by the Holy Ghost), received not the promise (of Eternal life, but having to wait under the alter (the grave) for Christ resurrection).

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us (we shall never see death), that they (Old Saints) without us (New Saints) should be made perfect (through Christ resurrection).

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has his part in the FIRST RESURRECTION .....

Sixth seal Christ crucifixation and resurrection.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon turned to blood.

Joel 2:31 And the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible DAY of the Lord come.

Matthew 27:51-53 earthquake, Old saints resurrected, moon (symbolic of Christ, Psalms 89:37).

Seventh seal silence in heaven one half hour (symbolic) of the forty five days between the resurrection and pentecost.

Daniel 12:11 From the time the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and the ABOMINATION THAT MAKETH DESOLATE SET UP, there shall be twelve hundred ninety days (forty two months, Christ ministry IN THE FLESH).

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days (pentecost, Christ second coming and ministry on earth).

GBU

I'd like to offer an alternative viewpoint to the absent with body present with Lord phrase.

First, it doesn't say that in the Bible. That phrase is actually from 2 Corinthians 5:8 where Paul said he would "rather" be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. He didn't say in 100% of all cases when people die that 100% of the time they will be "immediately" with the Lord. Paul was stating his preference. It doesn't mean Hitler and other mass murderers are with the Lord right now, simply because of this one verse.

Second, people often quote the verse about the man on the cross that Jesus said would be in "paradise" on that day as support. But Jesus didn't say 100% of all people, from this moment onward will 100% go to heaven, and zero people going to hell including Hitler? Jesus has the power to make exceptions and take people to heaven, but the word paradise is not necessarily the same as heaven. Some believe this word means a waiting area for the dead.

Lastly, there are many more Bible verses indicating that the dead are 'sleeping' and are awaiting the Lord to meet in the air and then face judgment. It says all will be judged, not just some. So, believing people go immediately to heaven without waiting on the Lord, and skipping judgment doesn't align with the other scriptures. God bless.

Daniel 12:2, Job 14:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18