Discuss Daniel 9 Page 3

Ronald.

Part 2.

In Daniel 9:25. the Messiah the Prince should be translated Messiah the King. That is how its read in Hebrew.

Johns' baptism had nothing to do with him being king.

Here are other issues I have with your timeline.

Daniel 9:25 is the end of the 69th week.

According to you guys timeline, these are consecutive weeks.

So according to that,

Here is the beginning of the seventh week- Daniel 9:26. (And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off!)

Can you see right away there is an issue with that timeline you gave?

You guys put the beginning of the 70th week in your timeline at the baptism.

If you all want to be consistent according to this belief Daniel's 70 weeks is consecutive, according to vs 26 the 70th week starts off with the Messiah being cut off. See Daniel 9:26.

The end of the 69th week is the Messiah presented as king.

If Daniels 70th week Prophecy is consecutive the 70th week starts off with him cut off. (According to the way some have it)

Let's address Part 2 of you reply.

You said Stephen's death as the first Martyr 34-35 AD is 3.5 years after Jesus's crucifixion this would end the 70th week.

Let's go back to Daniel 9:26-27 and take it as it is written.

IM HIGHLIGHTING KEYS IN THE ORDER PRESENTED FOR LACK OF SPACE.

Daniel 9:26.....(and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...);

So, after the 69th week on into the 70th week we have the Messiah cut off but also the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

(According to anyone that would have these weeks consecutive)

According to your timeline, you have that 38 years later.

If these weeks are consecutive, you have to include this in the 70th week.

However, those 38 years is an interval no matter what view you take.

But you guys don't believe there's an interval at all.

It's getting late, We can continue. perhaps during the week or this weekend.

God bless.

Hi Ronald.

Concerning part 1 of your reply.

Rome destroyed the city.

The prince that shall come will rise out of the Romans empire. This empire was never overthrown.

I showed the connection between ch 2 and ch 7 and 9. on into Revelation.

In most of these passages they use the exact same terms and description.

You said you see of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27.

But in Matthew 24:14-15 Jesus place Daniel 9:27 towards the end times!

( And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning Daniel 11:31. That was Antiochus Epiphanes, this happened around 170 BC,

However, Jesus points this to a end time event.

Ronald if you will, refresh my memory of your view on the end times.

Where and when is the Millennial Kingdom?

Are we in it or is it future?

If future, can you give me your view chronologically?

This will help me understand where you are coming from.

God bless.

Hi Ronald.

Part 1

Sorry so late of a response!

I will first speak on your 1st question as a springboard to get into this topic concerning the 69th and 70 week of Daniel 9:26-27.

Your quote.

"If I am correct, it is thought the 69th week ended when Jesus' ride into Jerusalem fulfilling Zech. 9:9. Dan. 9:26 says 69 weeks unto the Messiah, should we look over the 3.5 years from when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit? Look at the multitude that met Him when He rode in, they knew who He was, He came for the lost sheep of Israel. End quote.

Ronald, Daniel outlines the sequence of events in the opposite order than what you present in the 69th week. We see the Messiah cut off. But if you look at Verse 26 Carefully " The People of the prince THAT SHALL COME shall destroy the sanctuary. This puts his arrival after the destruction of Jerusalem. This is saying this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary but the Prince that shall come hasn't come yet.

This is saying, this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary, but the This is saying this person who is coming, His people will destroy the sanctuary. His people destroyed the sanctuary but the Prince that shall come hasn't come yet.

PRINCE THAT SHALL COME hasn't come yet.

Let's examine this.

Beginning with Daniel 9:25. This is where the 69 weeks end. We know that by the beginning of vs 26, ( And after threescore and two weeks )

and here's why I place this at his entry into Jerusalem riding a donkey, In Luke 19:37-39 we see the multitude singing, referring to Psalms 118:26. parallel that with Luke 19:38. The Pharisees saw that as blasphemy!

Psalms 118:22-26 is the scope of scope of Daniel's prophecies and Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

BUT

They denied there king and here's Jesus answer to that in Matthew 23:37-38.

This is the only time Christ presented himself as king!

See part 2.

Hi Melodysue34,

The stone wall is mentioned in chapter 3 this is the wall around Jerusalem. We see in the prophecy in Daniel 9:25 The street (open Square) shall be built again and the wall even in troublous times. That is what's going on here. Nehemiah received word that the walls of Jerusalem were broken down and the gates were burnt.

Nehemiah then asked the king if he might go to Jerusalem. The nobles of Judah were whimpering because of all the damage and rubbish, they did not want to rebuild the wall because Samaria and the surrounding countries threatened to attack, they had little to no faith (troublous times). A prayer to God from Nehemiah and the wall and gates went up in 52 days Nehemiah 6:15.

Read Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther covers that time in the return from captivity.

Hope this helps,

God bless,

RLW

Hi Landry,

We agree on Daniel 9:25-27 is a prophecy about the Messiah/Christ, the temple, Jerusalem, and Daniel's people, but the rest of your reply, our understandings are different, and I would not know how to reply, but to say a prayer for all of us. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

God bless,

RLW

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for your reply.

I have to disagree with you here.

I won't have time to get to far into it tonight and would actually like to visit this again towards the end of this series I started a couple of months ago.

But I will look at one aspect of your questions.

Your question concerning Daniel 9:27.

He shall confirm the covenant with many", COULD HE IN THIS VERSE FIT JESUS?

Let's look at that passage along with verse 26 and read it straight through.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Pause.

Now here's another player mentioned midway through verse 26 and the focus doesn't come off him throughout vs 27.

Let's continue.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT "SHALL COME" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS "HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. .

This is clearly the prince that shall come.

If it was Jesus confirming the covenant then it would be Jesus that makes the overspreading of abominations that makes it desolate.

Besides it's Jesus that points to this event as being future in Matthews

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15

God bless.

Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:

'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'

You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.

Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.

Page 2.

e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?

There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.

If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.

Page 1.

No offence at all Jimbob; always glad to share with you. I believe you know the passage well, that which is found in Daniel 9:20-27 & this subject has come up often in these pages over the years.

In my understanding of this passage, the mention of 'weeks' is taken to mean 'weeks of years', i.e. where 'seventy weeks' are seen in verse 24. Then the 'seventy weeks' (or, seventy sevens) equate to 490 years. This then is the basis from which the ensuing dates & events fall out. If you have disagreement on this, or other thoughts, then please read no further as you won't subscribe to any of it.

So, as verse 24 gives us, this full period of 490 years "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city" will at its completion, "finish the transgression, make an end of sins...to bring in everlasting righteousness...". And then from Daniel 9:25, we get the timeline of future events (i.e. from Daniel's vantage point & with our limited view & understanding).

a. of the 490 years, 49 years were accomplished: that is, from Artaxerxes commandment (in 445 BC; Nehemiah chap 2 onwards) to 'restore & build Jerusalem' to its accomplishment 49 years later.

b. then after the completion of 49 years & then a further 434 years ("threescore and two weeks") were then fulfilled by the coming of Jesus the Messiah & His Crucifixion.

c. after the 434 years & the death of Jesus, in time (AD 70) "the people of the prince that shall come" (led by Gen Titus of Rome) will desecrate the Temple & destroy Jerusalem.

d. now we have the full completion of 69 weeks (or 483 years of the 490 years prophesied), but one week (7 years) of the seventy weeks remain. Daniel 9:27, "And HE shall confirm the covenant with many for one week". This wasn't Titus or the people of Rome, but these men were the people of the "prince that SHALL COME" (i.e. another coming person that is referred to in verse 27).

Onto Page 2.

Heaven part 6 concluding thoughts for now

Given the paucity of descriptions of what we shall do other than eternally praise; worship and serve Christ we are left to our imaginations in one sense. We also can have the general anticipation of doing all the things (except marriage and procreation) that we do in our earthly bodies now; but without sin and fulfilling an exponentially greater purpose. Many have surmised how we will continually gain in our knowledge; forever work on construction projects (perhaps in all parts of a new universe) and other such things.

Backing up a bit; until that time it seems to me a spurious concept that in heaven time doesn't currently exist. If heaven is a world or planet perhaps things are measured differently (as to the Lord a day is as a thousand years); but nonetheless with all the visions from heaven in the scriptures in Revelation there are specific time frames that mirror the book of Daniel. Truly God is beyond time; and perhaps in new bodies and without sin WE will conceive things differently. God however had His consecrated feasts at specific time intervals; primarily to reflect Christ in the future Passover as sacrifice; in Pentecost for the beginning of the church; etc. Angels such as the one in the story of Daniel 10:13 understood literal days; and the 360 day year was used in the time measurements to show the events to come such as the day Christ was to be crucified 483 years after the decree to build the Temple ( Daniel 9:25).

The dimensions of heaven are clear; but there is no proof it has to be a cube. It could be equidistant on its sides in any shape; really; perhaps shaped as the ancient Temple; or more rectangular with the 12 gates on each side. Just landing that City on earth would destroy things with the gravity of the moon and change the whole appearance of the earth.

As with any other scripture; literal viewpoints should supercede figurative ones unless evidence is clear that it is symbolic.

Part 6.

REVIEWING THE NEW TESTAMENT CONSIDERING PREMILLENNIAL AND AMILLENNIAL VIEW POINTS.

In the previous section I left off discussing the council in Jerusalem mentioned in Acts 15:13-17 and Paul's writings in Romans 11:25.

These verses is concerning what become of Israel and the Covenant promises while the Church age has begun.

This tempts me to revisit the OT and usher in Daniel 9:24-27 at this junction but I will save that for now.

The focus is on Gods future plans for Israel and the timing and location of the Kingdom reign of Christ.

Some call it the Millennium reign or Millennium kingdom which can unfortunately confusing.

Millennium is a Thousand years.

That's just how long Satan will be chained.

Christ reign is everlasting. We must no mistake the Millennium for eternity. There's still sin, chastening and death in the Millennium. Christ rule with a rod of iron. Eternity is entirely different.

The Millennium is a time of testing.

There's a final rebellion by Man after the Devil is loosed for a season.

The statement in Acts 15:13-17 is drawn from Amos 9:11-12 which has been debated.

Amillenarians sought to make this a contradiction of the premillennial point of view.

It seems that "after these things I will return" refers to the return of Christ after the period of Gentile prominence which began in 606 B.C. and is destined to continue until the second coming. It is "after these things" judgment on Israel, their scattering, and discipline that Christ will return and build again the tabernacle or tent of David. The reference to the tent of David does not concern itself with any building but rather with the political power and sway which David had.

Amos 9:14-15 debunks that,

Especially verse 15. "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."

It's bedtime for me.

I will continue at a later time.

God bless.

By Scripture such as Isaiah 9:7 we know Christ is going to sit on David's Throne and set up an everlasting Kingdom to establish it with judgment and with justice "FROM HENCEFORTH" even for ever as noted.

From henceforth?

This has to be from the time the kingdom starts. by the description given of the kingdom we must admit it hasn't happened yet.

This places it future.

The kingdom consists of the Nation of Israel repenting and acknowledging Christ "who they rejected"

He will sit on David's throne IN JERUSALEM according to the promises and Covenants.

IN THE MEANTIME WHAT HAS BECOME OF THE NATION ISRAEL?



I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Romans 11:8

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Romans11:11.



For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans11:25.

How do we consider these verses CONCERNING NATION ISRAEL in Romans 11 and consider the promises and Covenants and the view into the future that Daniel gives us in Daniel 9:24-27?

More to come.

God bless.

EXAMINING THE COVENANTS.

Part 2.

Obviously the "EVERLASTING" conditons described in scripture concerning the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants.

Scriptures such as Isaiah 51:11 and many others don't exist of yet.

They are certainly back in the land but the wailing wall in Jerusalem reminds me of Matthew 27:25.

Also Matthew 23:38-39 seems to parallel with Hosea 5:15.

Does Israel disobedience void the UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT AND PROMISES?

According to Psalms 89:27-36. NO!



"My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, NOR SUFFER MY FAITHFULNESS TO FAIL.

( This is a marvelous saying! It's God's faithfulness that is on display!!)

MY COVENANT WILL I NOT BREAK, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me."

Daniel has much to say about this in Daniel 9:24

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

See Examining the covenants

Part 2.

God bless.

Seal judgments and trumpet judgments continued

I feel like a broken record here--or I could say CD but even that is retro nowadays. Anyway the sixth seal shows that everyone is aware of judgments being bought against the world by God and Christ ( Rev. 6:15-17). That hasn't happened yet clearly; and that is a result of course of the martyrs of the 5th Seal and reaping what they sowed in that regard. All the seals are personally opened by Christ and are therefore preceding the book itself being opened. The first seal in fact is judgment read these verses

2 Thessalonians 2:11

Daniel 8:23

Psalm 55:21

Daniel 8:25

Luke 21:35

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Daniel 9:27

So there will then be a time unlike today when there are no atheists; there will be only God and Satan worshippers; although men will worship demons through the trumpet judgments despite knowing the obvious that they are choosing that over the true God and what are increasing intensities of judgments.

More to come.

Our present reality

It is sobering to look at the history of great kingdoms such as Rome and the eventual downfall by corruption within. I have read about many similar events as to today in America that caused Rome to fall; such as many government type handouts; and of course licensiousness sexually. There is even a theory about the verse Luke 17:27 that there may have been same sex unions in the past that is being referred to.

Certainly Sodom and the surrounding cities shows a similar pattern to today. We should take note of Lot there; who decided to settle originally in the fertile plain; allowing appearances with his eyes to be what drove his decision to move there in the first place; while Abraham sought a better country as it were; and had promises not fulfilled in his lifetime through his progeny. The same concept of course brought Moses out of Egypt to wander in the wilderness for 40 years in what should have been a journey of a few months.

The pride that came before the fall of course is a sin associated with sodomy amongst other things. As I alluded to previously; the first seal of Revelation comes before war; famine and pestilence; a false peace confirmed with many according to Daniel 9:27. There has not been a mesmerizing orator since the time of Hitler and perhaps Mousallini in World War two that was able to conquer so quickly; gone are the Napoleans of the past. As Daniel states in chapter 8; verse 23 rulers will become completely wicked in that time when Antichrist; a man of intrigue arises. The one world religion will also promote the one world government. Through peace he shall destroy many ( Daniel 8:25). With world economies dissolving; and the removal of the ancient landmarks ( Prov. 22:28); no doubt he will realign the nations when he "divides the land for gain" ( Dan. 11:39) and that with the help of a "strange god."

Some think we can tough it out in the Tribulation. Let's not be there if we can avoid it!!

Agape.

Assessing where we are now.

Not knowing the day or hour is something we must live with. I will preface this segment by saying that it seems there are very few in churches these days proclaiming the Day of the Lord is imminent; let alone the Rapture. Again; as I stated in my last commentary when we assumed 1948 had to be the beginning of the last generation and the Lord hasn't come yet instead of letting that argument die we have kind of assumed that now that the cat is out of the bag that no one cares to discuss what appears to be a glaring contradiction of proper interpretation. The world; however seems far more interested in the end times and what is coming to ;pass than much of the professing church these days from what I can tell.

Today; we have in the Mideast the initial unveiling of a huge facility in Dubai where there is a synagogue; mosque and church and a one world monotheistic religious complex has been started (with Papal blessing). We also are at the edge of our dollar collapsing along with that of many governments; electronic currency and cashless societies already pretty much taken over in India as well as new currencies based on gold in Russia; China and Iran. It would seem from scripture that the final world system may begin with such a currency before heading to the Mark of the Beast.

I have said it before and will repeat that FIRST comes false peace as the first seal in Revelation indicates. We have already seen the "Abraham accords" and that likely will continue to advance until the "covenant with many" is confirmed ( Daniel 9:27). These things must come to pass; as the Rapture as well as the Revelation 4 indicates must occur "after these things."

There are a few who are as the stars in the sky; a few; a remnant who are burdened over all the evil and discuss these things anticipating Christ's return (see Malachi 3). God has a book for those in remembrance who will be raptured out before His judgments come forth. That weknow

Hi Gigi.

Thanks for your reply.

Actually God didn't destroy the temple to point to the Messiah and motivate them to turn to Jesus.

He gave them the Prophets, Moses and signs pointing them to his coming throughout the OT.

That was Johns mission to prepare the way for him that was Prophesied to come.

In Daniel 9:25 Daniel gave them a mathematical prophecy of his coming on the day he was to present himself as king.

He did just that fulfilling Daniels prophecy and Zechariah 9:9.

Jesus held them accountable in Luke 19:41-44 for not acknowledging this.

"And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, AT LEAST IN THIS THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE THOU KNOWEST NOT THE TIME OF THY VISITATION.

However all this was in God's plan from the beginning.

It wasn't a plan A and B.

The bible clearly tells us the veil will be moved off of Israel heart and they will turn to the Lord.

Everything is going according to Gos design.

God bless.

Concluding thoughts for now on Rapture and reasons for it; as well as Tribulation saints commentary

My proposition is that the final revival or as Joel 2:23 is basically attained in the "signs and wonders" environment which the rest of Joel and much of the O.T. discuss for the end times. As I have stated numerous times of late by the sixth seal ALL will know about God AND Christ on the throne. ( Rev. 6:12-17). This proves judgments of God clearly are poured out with comprehension by all those on earth at the time. Therefore; the Gospel as preached now will be unnecessary; Christ and God will be on one side; and Satan; the False Prophet and Antichrist on the other side. It would appear that with the woman riding the Beast the first part of the Tribulation the false Babylon one world religion will be the primary killers ( John 16:2; which appears to have particular emphasis on those in Israel at that time). Later on; of course the Antichrist destroys the religion and probably one of the headquarters by fire ( Rev. 17:16). I will state that those who are destroyed are naked; and that seems to parallel Revelation 16:15 as well as the fate of the Laodiceans. It appears a remnant will survive most of the Tribulation who don't step out in faith but also hide out from being forced to take the Mark.

The aforementioned verses and others such as similar sounding events in the seal; trumpet and bowl judgments which make us question not just the timing of the Rapture but other events I am not planning to go into a detailed analysis at present. I will state that just because things are hard to understand we shouldn't just place symbolic interpreteations on them; most believers don't with the already fulfilled prophecies when Christ came the first time so we shouldn't do so now with future events. There is as many are aware a time for "Jacob's trouble" or Daniel's 70th Week ( Jeremiah 30:17; Daniel 9:24-27) which seem to indicate the seven years to purge Israel.

@Mishael

Advocate 1 John 2:1

Shephard & Bishop of souls I Peter 2:25

Man of sorrows Isa 53.3

Judge Acts 10:42

Faithful and True Witness Rev 3:14

Head of the Church Eph 5:23

Rock 1 Corth 10:4

High Priest Heb 6:20

Master Matt 8:19

Living Water John 4:10

Rose of Sharon Song of Solomon 2:1

Alpha and Omega Rev 22:13

Lamb of God John 1:29 Messiah Daniel 9:25

Mediator I Tim 2:5

Teacher John 3:2

Author and Finisher of our Faith Heb 12:2

Image of the invisible God Col 1:15

Everlasting Father Isa 9:6

The Word John 1:1

Holy One Mark 1:24

Light of the world John 8:12

Lion of the tribe of Judah Rev 5: 5

LORD OF LORDS I Tim 6:15

The Beloved Eph 1:6

Carpenter Mark 6:3 The Almighty Rev 21:

Shiloh Gen 49:10

The Way, the Truth and The Life John 14:16

Bright and Morning Star Rev 22:16

Good Shepherd John 10:11

Son of Man Matt 20:28

Only Begotten Son John 3:16

King Of Kings 1 Tim 6:15

Prince of Peace Isa 9:6

Bridegroom Matt 9:15

Dayspring Luke 1:78

Saviour of the world Eph 5:23

Immanuel Luke 1:78 & Matt 1:23

Wonderful Counselor Isa 9:6

I AM John 8:58

The Door John 10:9

The True Vine John 15:1

King of the Jews Mark 15:26

Prophet Matt 21:11

Redeemer Job 19:25

Saviour Isa 45:15 , John 42:2, 1 Tim 4:10

The Amen Rev 3:14

The Living God

Anchor Heb 6:19

The BRANCH Zech 6:12

Bread of Life John 6:15

The Resurrection & Life John 11.25

The Living God, who is the Saviour of all men,

It certainly can be said as happened say in Germany in the 1930's that family members betraying others has been a repeated theme of persecution; whether with dictatorships; or in many Mideast countries today.

As to the other two things; I will repeat what I've said quite often that the gates of hell will NOT prevail against the church; but the saints (in general) will be overcome and martyred during the Tribulation which God Himself must cut short or no one would survive. He who restrains must be held back until he is removed (I would contend with the explanation of that being the method in which the Spirit works with the gifts and calling in the current church age). It is certainly not out of the question that as Daniel states "only the wise will understand" that indeed the man of sin may be evident to God's people before he becomes world dictator and perhaps that fits into the "midnight hour" parable as a sign.

The mark of the Beast is something accompanying worship of Satan and the image set up (which people likely will have some technological way to reproduce). If we take the Tribulation in basic chronological order we see seal judgments first; then sealing the 144,000; then after God's 2 prophets minister they are destroyed and resurrected and the false prophet imitates similar miracles such as fire coming down from the sky. I would strongly state that the covenant which is now likely in initial stages will be "confirmed with many" as Daniel 9:27 states. The first seal or false peace is the first delusion sent by God so those who don't LOVE the truth will be damned. That is clearly judgment as all seals are with Christ Himself opening them personally.

I will state that we all must be ready to die for His names' sake; as it is rapidly getting to where all will hate us from all nations and those who think they believe God will think as the scripture states that they are doing HIm a favor by killing us. False religion I believe comes first

(Part-1):

Hello Jimbob,

To answer your first question, I have gone back and read through Matthew Chapter 24 beginning with Verse 1. The first thing I am looking for is who Jesus is speaking to. It tells us in Verse 1 that Jesus was in the process of leaving the temple grounds when the disciples (Peter, James, John, & Andrew) came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. Jesus gives them the prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple that happened in 70 AD.

In Verse 3, these same four disciples probed Jesus with three questions: When shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Now from this point in Verse 3 on to the end of Chapter 24, Jesus gives these four disciples the answers to their three questions. I am trying to find reference to the church with what Jesus is saying, mainly in response to your question on who the ones taken are referring to, but I just cannot see this as being the church.



Jesus begins answering their three questions in Verse 4. He begins by talking about the pains of birth ( Matthew 24:4-14), and then Matthew 24:15 is the pivotal point. Jesus is talking to Jews who are familiar with their Old Testament scriptures in Daniel ( Daniel 9:27, 11:31, 12:11). And then we see the perils of tribulation ( Matthew 24:16-28). And the finally, the promise of Jesus' coming in Matthew 24:29-31.

As you probably already have figured out by now, I believe the church is gone already, so no, I do not see Matthew 24:40-41 talking about church members being taken, nor do I see those two verses referring to the rapture of the church. I believe the ones taken are taken into judgment. They are taken to fight against Christ when He returns at His second coming. My reason for believing this comes from Joel 3:1-2, and Zechariah 14:2. From what I see, it is God who gathers these people (the ones taken) into the Valley of Megiddo to face judgement.

Page 1.

Yes Jimbob, I would be happy to & will try to be succinct. Though I should mention that the meaning of the Great Tribulation, or Day of the Lord, needs to be clarified first. I understand, as you do, that the time of the outpouring of God's Wrath upon the World can be understood as the Great Tribulation, but I see the final week (7 years) of Daniel's seventy weeks, 490 years: Daniel 9:24-27, as the final seven years - years that will change the World's existence & future forever. And by the way, you believe in a post-trib rapture & I understand that as being before God's Wrath poured out. I view this position to be one of mid-trib for the reason I've shared above, but that's not the point here.

Now my Scriptures for a pre-trib (or, pre-Day of the Lord) rapture:

a. the Church is a mystery ( Ephesians 1:1-13), by which believing Jew & Gentile are united into one Body ( Ephesians 2:11-22). Therefore, the Church's translation is not mentioned in the OT that deals with Christ's Second Coming after the Tribulation, & why the Church is promised deliverance before the time of God's Wrath ( 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

b. the 70th week in Daniel, is the preparation of Israel's restoration & regeneration ( Deuteronomy 4:29-30; Jeremiah 30:4-11; Ezekiel 20:22-44; Ezekiel 22:13-22).

c. the Tribulation (including anti-Christ's reign) is not for the Church, but for those who are in the world ( Revelation 3:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:2,8). The Church is never seen here & will not participate in Israel's time of trouble.

Hello Ronald,

Thank you for sharing this information for my consideration. I have read the account of the 70 AD destruction of the temple. The things Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the inspiration for the Maccabean Revolt.

Some people think that when Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:15 "there shall be an abomination of desolation" is that's what they called it when Antiochus IV Epiphanes, back in 165 B.C., put up his image.



Yeah, it happened once before. But in Matthew, this is a future event, not to be confused with that event. This is something that must happen in the future.

I know this is one of the most debated topics amongst believers, but like you, I am not looking for debate either.

I believe that all prophecy concerning the end time is based on Daniel 9:24-27. I also believe that the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. From what I have read, they are not the same message.

Looking at what Jesus said in Matthew 23:38, I understand that was fulfilled 38 years later in 70 A.D., when Titus the Roman General rode into Jerusalem and killed 1,600,000 Jews. He leveled the city, including the temple, just as Jesus said they would. Why?



Because they rejected their Messiah and even to this day, they no longer do sacrifice. That is because there is only one place that they can sacrifice and it is in Jerusalem, which is why the Jews don't sacrifice today.

But there will come a time in the future when the antichrist arrives on the scene, and he is going to help the Jews rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. And he's going to help them start sacrifices up again. And then right in the middle of the tribulation period, right in the middle of the 70th week, he is going to set up his image in the Holy of holies, and he is going to say that everybody must worship him.

Again, thank you for what you've shared.

God bless!

Brother Ronald.

Part 3.

Matthew 24:32-34.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Israel represents the fig tree in scripture.

Hosea 9:10.

Jeremiah 24:2-3.

Joel 1:7.

This generation is a particular people of this time. (Israel)

Generations is used in that way in scripture as a particular people or Genealogy as seen in Genesis 5:1 and other places.

SO YOU KNOW IT IS NEAR WHEN YOU SEE ISRAEL START TO BLOSOM.

THAT DIDNT HAPPEN IN 70 AD.

Back to Daniel 9:24.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Reconciliation. Jesus done that on the cross, but no one is reconciled until they believe. As a Nation Israel still rejects Christ and will continue until the tribulation. Hosea 5:15, Matthew 23:39.

To finish the transgression. That refers to Israel. Zachariah 12:10 "The last days.

to bring in everlasting righteousness.

To anoint the most Holy. I also believe that's the Holy of holiness. but I believe that is in the Millennium temple that Ezekiel is talking about in the 41st through the 46 chapter.

I will have to leave off here for now Ronald.

God bless.

Brother Ronald.

Part 2.

As I presented my view of a "to the day" accurate 69th weeks, I believe if one holds the view that there is no interval, and these weeks are consecutive. SEVERAL YEARS PAST BEFORE TITUS DESTROYED THE TEMPLE. 70weeks dosent add up.

This brings us to Matthews 23:37-39

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Notice vs 39. "Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

Now we know they saw him again so I believe this means to Behold him as a nation. Remember Luke 19:42.

Also see Hosea 5:15. I will go and return to my place, TILL THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR OFFENCE, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

ISRAEL AS A NATION SIN IS THEIR REJECTION.

Paul hammers on this rejection, Blindness, and restoration in Romans 9,10,and 11.

Paul summarizes this very well in Romans 11:25-28.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS, I BELIEVE IT STRENTHENS MY ARGUMENT DANIEL 9:24 HASNT HAPPENED YET.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, AND SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLYNESS FROM JACOB:

For this is my covenant unto them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching THE ELECTION, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

This hasn't happened yet.

See Part 3.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9

I believe the key to understanding Daniel 9:24-27 is recognizing that God does not have in view in these verses a literal, physical city or temple that was to be built or destroyed. Rather, He has in view the city and the temple which is the body of believers, which was to be build by teaching the law of God. He also has in view the cutting off of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the spiritual city and sanctuary.

Daniel 9:24-27

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We must always compare scripture with scripture and remember that the Bible is first and foremost The GOSPEL which includes God's Judgement for sin and His Mercy in Salvation. And that God uses types and figures to both reveal and hide Truth. It is not about the political nations of this world which will ultimately be destroyed. It is about the Kingdom of God which is an Eternal Kingdom. And to demonstrate the Glory of God.

Hi Brother Ronald.

Who's the Elect in Mathew 24.

Part 1.

Here is my understanding of the timeline given to Israel in Daniel's people in Daniel 9:24-27 and also how it associates with Matthew 23, Matthew 24. Romans 11 and so on. I might add a few more as I go.



Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

to finish the transgression,

and to make an end of sins,

and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and to seal up the vision

and prophecy,

and to anoint the most Holy.

I WILL COME BACK TO vs 24.

Daniel 9:25-26 most agree that this was accomplished but what I think what is important to Know is that it was a dated prophecy, and it was precise in its timing. "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

On occasions in the Gospels they tried to make Jesus king but he would give them the slip because his time has not come yet.

On the triumphal entry he arranged and fulfilled the prophecy riding on a donkey. Zechariah 9:9.

This also fulfilled the dated, mathematical prophecy of Daniel 9:25 on the very day. Read Luke 19:30-44.

LISTEN TO THE LORD HERE IN Luke 19:41-44.

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, AT LEAST IN THIS THY DAY, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; BECAUSE THOU KNEWEST NOT THE TIME OF THY VISITATION.

He fulfilled the prophecies, and they rejected their king and was held accountable.

I believe this ends the 69th week.

See Part 2.

Brother S. Spencer. You may have already checked out bro. Giannis' breakdown of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24-27, but thought to mention it here, as those weeks of years are an important timeline to place history from Artaxerxes' authorization for Nehemiah to leave for the purpose of re-building Jerusalem, right up to the crucifixion of Christ. Though, I had a problem in correctly apportioning the years (maybe the year 445 BC that is commonly used as Artaxerxes' command for Nehemiah to depart, is not precise), it seems clear that only 69 of the 70 weeks have been so far fulfilled. I have not been able to find the final week (of seven years) in the Daniel texts. As Giannis stated, Titus did no more than destroy the temple & Jerusalem and this week must point to another time & person still to come (of which Daniel 7:8,24,25,26 refers to).

Hello Spencer

Pt 1

My understanding of Daniel 9:25-27

"25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: (7+62+1 )the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."

Why that time of 490 years is split into 7, 62, and 1 weeks?

7 weeks, 49 years, is the time between the order to rebuilt Jerusalem, her walls and the Temple and its accomplishment.

From that date untill Jesus' crucifixion 62 weeks will pass by, that is 434 years.

1 week the last is the period of antichrist ' rule on earth. But let's go to verses 26-27,

"26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate"

Well, here there are two options, the 70th week is EITHER about the time of Jesus' ministry and the destruction of Jerusalem OR antichrist's time.

If it was Jesus' time then additional weeks should have been added since the destruction of Jerusalem was about 40 years later, that is an additional 5-6 weeks. But the prophesy places it in the last week. Also it says that that prince will make a COVENANT with people. Obviously that person was not Titus. Titus didn't make any covenant, he just came, conquered, destroyed and left. So it has to be the antichrist who is going to make a deal with the sinful world and as a sign for that deal he will put his mark, 666, on people.

But why the prophesy separates the last week from the rest?

Thanks Ronald.

I'm sorry it's taking so long between responses. Please bare with me.

I've read over your material on Daniel 9:24 and you say you believe this was fulfilled.

Where do you fit the abominations that make it desolate into your time line?

I believe Daniel 9:24 is the scope of All 70 weeks.

I believe 69 weeks was fulfilled and the 70th week is yet to come.

I also don't hold the view vs 24 has been fulfilled.

Thanks for being patient with me.

God bless.