Discuss Deuteronomy 2

GiGi

About Edomites. The Edomites are described in the Bible mainly as opponents of the people of Israel.Moses asked permission for the people of Israel to cross the territory of the Edomites peacefully.He even promised to pay for anything the Israelites might need along the way.Even so,the king of Edom refused to let the people of Israel pass(Number 20:14-21)

Now,in this current millennium,the seventh and last,even in these days of Apocalypse,the battle of Armageddon(air-magog-eddom(red) is in the way( Revelation 16:13-16) , the battle is against three unclean spirits like frogs(why frogs?the website of purebible explains this mystery),that come out of the mouth of the dragon(the red dragon- Revelation 12:3-4),and out of the mouth of the Beast(the MAN Beast of sea),and out of the mouth of the false prophet(the false messiah of the Jews, a false lamb- Revelation 13:11).

Remembering that Edom means red, the battle called Ar/mag/eddon is in the current heavenly environment of the New Testament against the MAN Beast of sea(Magog) and against the MAN Beast revealed as dragon(Satan incarnated, son of perdition, MAN of sin- Revelation 13:11-he was born in Israel decades ago and will manifest himself soon as messiah-an IMPOSTOR). Get ready- Revelation 16:15- Behold, I come as a thief.Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.

Daniel 12:10-12

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried;but the wicked shall do wickedly:and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up,there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth,and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Matthew 24:15

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the Holy Place,(whoso readeth,let him understand

So, it seems that the account of the people the Israelites encountered east of the Jordan have a correlation to the time of Abraham. It seems unsure to me exactly who it was that pushed these giants out of the areas of Ammon, Moab and Edom. WAs it the kings of the east, Abraham and his group, or the Moabites, Ammonites, and Edomites. Perhaps it was all of these since the chapter says that God destroyed the giants in times past.

In Deut. 2:24 God calls on the Israelites to rise up and begin to conquer the peoples east of the Jordan after He recounts how the giants were expelled from the area before. He says He will give them Sihon, the giant king of the Amorites, by putting in the oversized inhabitants of this area a dread of the Israelites that will make these nations of giant men tremble and be in anguish (vs. 25).

So, Moses sends messengers ahead to Sihon asking permission to pass through his land. But Sihon refused this request and came out against the Israelites because the LORD had hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate. The battle ensued with God giving Israel immense victory of all the people of the land of Sihon. They did as God had instructed them, killing ALL men, women, and children. Some think it so harsh and un-God-like for Him to order total extermination. But, if ALL of the people of Sihon were mixed blood with Rephaim, it was best for this people to be destroyed. God hates this mixing of Rephaim blood and human blood. It always is wicked and leads to greater wickedness in the people as a whole.

The Israelites kept the cattle alive and took them as spoil from the cities. From the Arnon River through Gilead all the cities were taken by the Israelites by God's power. And none of the people and land of Ammon was invaded, battled against, or taken at all just as God had forbade them not to do.

In Nu. 13:32 the spies said that the giants in the land eat up the inhabitants of the land. They must have seen this happen to say this.

The accounts of the giants from cultures all over the world show that the giants they encountered had similar characteristics such as: being twice the size of a normal man or more, having double rows of teeth and six fingers on each hand and six fingers on each foot, having red shaggy hair, being cannibalistic, violent, and terrorizing. Yet these giant peoples were overcome and destroyed by large bands of normal size peoples who united to rid their area of them. We do not know if there are still some of these giants still living in some remote areas.

In Genesis 14 and 15 is the account of the wars fought by the kings of the east against the kings of the Dead Sea area in which Lot was taken captive, The text says that the eastern kings smote these peoples named on their way to the Dead Sea coming from the north to south (all extremely large people east of the Jordan River.) There were Amorites west of the Jordan and Ge. 14:13 says that Abraham dwelt with Mamre and his brothers, Aner, and Eschol, Amorites who fought with his men to retrieve Lot and peoples from the Mesopotamian kings.

In Ch. 15 God makes the covenant with/for Abraham, prophesying that Abraham's descendants will go to Egypt and come out in the 4th generation when the sin of the Amorites will be fully grown. God lists the peoples Abrahams descendents will take the in the Exodus. It is unclear how many of these groups were related to the Rephaims, nor if these peoples all intermixed with these extremely large Rephaim descendants, but most likely did to a large extent by the time of the Exodus, thus necessitating the total extermination of all of these peoples including women and children. If they did mix with that of the Rephaims and were internally influenced by the wickedness of the 1st generations of Rephaims after the flood this explains why God determined that those with Rephaim blood needed to be wiped out.

There are accounts of such extremely large humans from all cultures all over the world, some ancient and some more recent. Historians Josephus and Herodotus mentions them being real. Bones of enormous size have been unearthed all over the world, yet many of them have been mysteriously misplaced when given over to people in power. such as the Smithsonian.

Deuteronomy takes an aside here in verse 10-12 to mention the Emims (meaning terror or fear) in Moab and the Horims (meaning cave dwellers) in Seir who were giants as the Anakim (meaning long-necked) were, but Moab drove out the Emins and destroyed them and Edomites drove out the Horims and destroyed them long before this time. These two groups of giants were overcome by non-giants. God, through Moses reminds the Israelites of this as they were now in Amorite (meaning prideful, self-exalting talkers) territory, which was a land of giants, too. God tells them to rise up, get over the brook of Zered.

Another aside in this chapter is the mention that the time from Kadesh-barnea with the spies and evil report to this point was 38 years until all of the men of war in that generation was "wasted out" from among the camp of Israelites by the LORD as He promised.

And God spoke to Moses to pass over through Ar on the coast (border) of Moab that very day. God tells them not to distress the people of Ammon because, like Moab, they were the descendants of Lot and cousins. Ammon was north-east of Moab and the Amorites held the land from west border of Ammon to the Jordan river and north of the border of Moab.

Ammon was also a land of giants in the past, called Zamzummin, (meaning murmurers, perhaps as in conjuring of spirits) whom the Ammonites drove out in times before this.

Next is listed the Avims (meaning wicked or perverse men), who dwelled in the area of Gaza who were driven out by the

Caphtors. The Caphtors are believed to be either Egyptians descended from Mizraim (of Ham) or people of Crete who took over the area of Gaza which later was the home of the Philistines.

All of these giant clans were considered to be Rephaim (meaning terrible ones) or Nephilim (meaning fallen ones or feller of men) or Gibborim meaning (giants, men of reknown as Nimrod was called).

The land of Canaan was a land of giants, most likely all-over.

Ch. 2 continued.

This journey around Edom is recounted in Numbers Ch. 20-21. After Moses and Aaron had brought water from the rock at Meribah and were reprimanded by God for their unbelief ( Nu. 20:12) telling them that they will not enter the land of promise, they approached Edom to seek safe passage through their land and Edom refused, coming out against them. Aaron dies on Mt. Hor and the battle with King Arad (who may have been a giant like many in Canaan) is fought in Kadesh. This is the area where the spies had surveyed the land 40 years prior noting the giants. The Israelites headed south to the Red Sea at Ezion-geber and then northward gain encircling Mount Seir. This is where the fiery serpents attacked the murmuring Israelites. They ended up at Oboth at the edge of Edom south of the Dead Sea in the Arabah valley. From there they traveled around the east of Edom (because the Edomites would not give them safe passage through their land (which most likely did not have giants).They came across the brook of Zered and into Moab at Ije-abarim. Then they moved to the valley of Zared. From there they went to the northern border of Moab at across the Arnon River. The Amorites lived north of this river. Apparently there were great victories brought about by God in this area. ( Nu. 21:14-15) These battles were recorded in the book of the wars of the LORD.

The Israelites did not disturb Moab ( Dt. 2:9), as the descendants are from Lot, whom God blessed and protected, the Moabites being cousins to Israel. Then they came to Beer, a place where God said He would give them water. The princes of Israel dug and water sprang forth for them. As the princes dug, the people sang, "Spring up , O well, sing ye unto it. So it seems that they needed to show their faith in God by this song sung before or during the digging.

From there they went to Mattanah, Nahahiel, to Bamoth and up Mt. Pisgah. There must have been some tableland on this mount.

Deut. Ch. 2 is recounting the last legs of the travels of the Israelites before they conquer the peoples of the lands of Canaan. They first are instructed to take the lands east of the Jordan River. These are the lands of the Amorites.

From the edges of Canaan in the south God instructs them to travel from Mt. Hor where Aaron dies and circled Mt. Seir many days before God instructed them to travel around the border of Edom going northward, which is the land that Esau and his tribes took from the Horites. God told the Israelites that they are to travel along the border (coast) of Edom and are not to enter Edom or disturb the descendants of Esau dwelling within Edom, since they are descendants of Abraham (and cousins) whom God had given a blessing to in addition to Isaac. God told them that the Edomites would fear the Israelites, so they are to take heed, for God will not give Israel any of the land of Edom since God had given the land of Edom to Esau as a possession. The Israelites could interact with the Edomites to buy food and water (evidently the Manna and water from rocks had ceased. Since God had not ceased to provide for them for 40 years and blessed them so that they lacked no necessity, they now were to buy food and water from the Edomites. So they passed by Edom and headed towards the wilderness of Moab.

Hi Cheryl,

This is a tough scripture, the sons of God and the daughters of men. Some consider the sons of God to be the line of Seth and the daughters of men the line of Cain. Then if we throw in what Jesus said in Matt. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven, wow.

There is no need for angels in heaven to marry, they are immortal, and no need to reproduce as we will be after the resurrection in the kingdom on the new earth. Angels are called sons of God in Hebrew b'nai Elohim in Job 1:6 Job 2:1 Job 38:7.

Through scripture angels take on human form, they eat and drink Gen. 18:7-8 Gen. 19:3 and physically wrestle with man, Gen. 32:24. If they eat and drink would that mean they have all the organs of man on earth? Scripture tells us there are devils/demons and fallen angels on earth along with Satan but there is another group of angels. These angels are different, they are locked in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit until judgment. 2 Peter 2:4-7 Jude 1:6-7. We see in Rev. 9:11 this pit has a king, and this is where Satan will be locked up for 1000 years.

They left their first estate, heaven and in 2 Peter and Jude it says making them an example, (going after strange flesh), they corrupted God's creation Gen. 6:5-7. Even though there are fallen angels roaming the earth this set of angels God made an example to the others they will be locked in chains of darkness until judgment. We see the devils in Mark 5:9-10 were in fear Jesus might cast them down to the bottomless pit.

We see that this happened again after the flood, Gen. 6:4 "and also after." The description in scripture is clear these are not just tall people. 2 Samuel 21:16 Joshua 12:4 Numbers 13:33 Deuteronomy 2:19-21 Deuteronomy 20:17 Amos 2:9. This is just a small amount of information but may it will help in your study.

God bless,

RLW

Generation as described biblically: Please read = Genesis 7:1, Ecclesiastes 1:4, Lamentations 5:19, Daniel 4:3, Matthew 1,

In comparison to your example of Noah- Exodus 20:1-5, Exodus 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 2:14, Judges 2:10, 2Kings 10:30, 2Kings 15:12, Hebrews 3, Luke 1:50, Psalms 102:18, John 17,

Prophetic about Jesus & other generations- Proverbs 30:12,13,14, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 11,

Psalms 12:6-7, Psalms 14,

Hopefully these are helpful

Genesis 27:41,

Esau was also called Edom, Genesis 36:1, please read: Obadiah 1, whole chapter

Note: Obadiah 1:10-14 "For the violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off forever. In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou was one of them. But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity; Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossways, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress."

Obadiah 1:6, Malachi 1, Deuteronomy 2:22, Jeremiah 49:7-22, Judges 11:17, 1Kings 11:14-25, Ezekiel 25:12-14,

Romans 9:13-15,

Hopefully these are helpful also, towards more understanding of why GOD said Esau HE hated.

Responding to ELB,

1John 4:1-20,

Genesis 41:8, Genesis 45:27, Exodus 6:9, Exodus 28:3, Exodus 35:12, Numbers 14:24, Deuteronomy 2:30, Deuteronomy 34:9, Joshua 5:1, Proverbs 18:14, Ezekiel 1:20, Romans 8:14-16, Haggi 1:14,

Isaiah 11:2,

Leviticus 20:27, Numbers 5:14,30,

Numbers 11:17,25,

Judges 9:23,

Hopefully these are helpful

Verse 7-God cared for so many people over decades and it shows that His hand is never short and he has limitless power.

Waline A Anthony,

In Genesis 6:4 it talks about the giants, "in those days; and also, after that", We see in those days and also after that we have giants (Nephilim). We see when Israel went into the promised land God gave them a command Deuteronomy 20:16-18. The word giant is Nephilim, which is also in Numbers 13:33, giants after the flood.

The question this raises is, who are the Nephilim and how did they survive the flood? Were these more fallen angels that created more giants? If the Nephilim were indeed half-human/half-angelic then it may explain the many ancient religious views after Babel with demi-gods (half man half god), but we do not find it clearly in scripture.

Also, in the Old Testament, there is the Rephaim (or Rephaites), and the context describes them as giants. The name of these people means "terrible ones" also, refers to departed spirits whose dwelling place was the abyss.

Here are some scriptures that may help your study, Joshua 12:4 2 Samuel 21:16 Also read Joshua 13, 15, 17, 18, 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20.

We do find giants of considerable size. Is there any scripture that tells us where these giants came from? There were not just one or two, but there were many. The descriptions of these giants appear much larger than 8-9 feet tall, a small number of people today.

Numbers 13:33 Deuteronomy 2:19-21 Deuteronomy 20:17 Amos 2:9

Many struggles with there being giants but all over the world history records similarities of myths of giants, were they real? Whatever the case, there is the biblical evidence, plus written accounts outside of the Bible, that giants did exist.

Are the Nephilim and Rephaim the offspring of angels and human women that became demons and evil spirits after the flood that we see in the Bible? In the Bible there are angels which kept not their first estate, but left their habitation and are locked in chains of darkness until judgment.

Study for your conscience may this help, God bless.

RLW

Neville Stewart

There are two primary views on the identity of the sons of God and daughters of men. They were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain. The major support for this interpretation is Genesis chapter 4 describes the ungodly generations of Cain, and 5 is the godly Seth line and the righteous line of Seth.

Cain and Seth are both descendants of Adam and Eve so if the descendants of Cain's daughters were fair, so the daughters of Seth would also be fair so, godly vs ungodly would have to be the difference. Nowhere in scripture are the descendants of Seth called "the sons of God", but more as an adoption, "shall be my son" as Solomon and us today, who receive Jesus and are led by the Spirit of God are the sons/ daughters of God. ( 1 Chronicles 17:13) ( 2 Corinthians 6:18)

The other view is angels who left their first estate and mated with women. Angels are called sons of God in Job, ( Job 1:6) ( Job 2:1) ( Job 38:7). Some say angels can not mate because of what Jesus said in ( Matthew 22:29-30). But all through scripture angels take on human form, they eat and drink and if they left their first estate it is possible. Scripture does not give a lot about this; we have 1656 years from Adam to the flood in only 7 chapters of Genesis.

Scripture tells us there are devils, demons, and fallen angels but these angels are different they are locked in chains of darkness in the bottomless pit until judgment. ( 2 Peter 2:4) ( Jude 1: 6). The bottomless pit comes up in Revelation, another study.

Also mentioned are giants/ Nephilim/ Rephaim "in those days; and also after that", before and after the flood. Whether these were offspring of angels' scripture does not tell us. The description in scripture is clear these are not just tall people. ( 2 Samuel 21:16) ( Joshua 12:4) ( Numbers 13:33) ( Deuteronomy 20:17) ( Deuteronomy 2:19-21) ( Amos 2:9).

This is just a small amount of information, maybe it will get you started in your study.

RLW

Thank you Adam.

Hi Mr E.

Romans 8:22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The Whole world was falling when we thought it was Great.

Yeah, People Love world rather than God

Christian is all about the relationship we had with God

1 John 2:15

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

James 4:8

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

What I mean is that we live in a fallen world where values have been forgotten and day after day this world is crazier, we have reached a stage where money replaces life, they are no longer the times of before every day we are closer to annihilating what made us human that essence that joy and we contemplate more the material and forget about our families. And instead of focusing on the true we have put our eyes on the temporary. Instead of really appreciating life and every day we fall further into the abyss. That is what I mean, and what do you think?

Yes Ofcourse

2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Do you think that we Live in A Fallen World ?

Hi Leyla.

Perhaps this is what you're looking for.

Exodus 22:21 (KJV) Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

or

Leviticus 19:33-34 (KJV) And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

I hope that helps.

There is a place in the bible that gives if calm when others force the words of " don't be prejudice... They are people too..."

I'm trying to not be derogatory. I want plainly a spot in my bible that describes it.

The offspring of a closely related family others others birthed from sabotage of a good family.

I can't remember the pages and the verses.

The pages are above a 1000.

Where should I read.

?

Susannah, Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children OF of the wicked one;

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was OF of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

So is Adam the wicked one? The denominational church world does not seem to know....

I was taught that the ones Jesus was talking to from the cross were the children of the first liar and murderer. (Cain) The ones who pretended to be Jews from the first by attaching themselves to them by getting to be the scribes of Judah. (woe to you scribes and Pharisees). Kenites are who he is referring to. They still try to put themselves in the place of God's people. Just the way satan always tries to assume God's place (the reason he was kicked out in the first place). He will return trying to take the Messiah's place as the anti Christ. Cain. Ever questioned why Cain's not in Adam's genealogy? A poser isn't it?

Bob, as I see it, there are three types of Jews being spoken of in the Bible: the True Jew (i.e. one who not only 'kept' God's Commandments but also understood & practised their real significance (e.g. Mk 12:42-44: the widow; Jn 3; 7:50; 19:39: Nicodemus). Second type: the Jew whom Jesus often condemned for their spiritual condition & behaviour (e.g. Jn 8:44, which you quoted). Third type: mixed Jews as a result of the Diaspora (586 BC) into Babylon & following mixed marriages throughout the centuries in various lands.

So, who is the real Jew? How does one assess that given their largely mixed blood & by God's determination only? And, of the Jews whom the Lord condemned were of their father, the Devil, did they cease being Jews physically, or was Jesus speaking about their wicked spiritual condition? Only God can determine that when the time of reckoning with them comes.

Whether reference is made to those Jews, or the Israel of God ( Gal 6:16), the fact is that there will be a regathering of Israel according to Isa 11:10-12. And though they are in unbelief (& one could add the 'real' Jews' dilution) Ezek 37:1-8, Israel will be established as a nation before the Anti-Christ's appearing ( Isa 28:15-18, 22) even though they make a covenant with death & Sheol = AntiChrist (v 15).

As Christians, we are indeed His sheep, the true Israel through Jesus Christ, but it remains that God has not forgotten His people, however mixed & adulterous they are, with whom He covenanted & they will figure prominently in the last days & many of them will be restored into His sheepfold.

Chris, how do you or anyone know those over in the middle east are in fact Jews? Because they say so?

Jesus in bible book of Revelation 2:9 says I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Jesus speaking to the Pharisee Jews Bible book of John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

48 Then answered the Jews

Then answered the Jews

Then answered the Jews

Then answered the Jews

pretty obvious who Jesus called of their father the DEVIL. (God's chosen people?)

King James Bible Jesus speaks to some of the Jews in John 10:23 - 29:And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the JEWS (THE JEWS) round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you."

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The United Nations in 1948 created that state, not the Lord, and the United Nations is openly satanic.

Their official publisher is Lucis publishing, originally Lucifer Trust.

It's like you said before, the Messianic Christians will be caught up with ALL the young children, just like us. Those left on earth will know what happened, and repent I pray. The 2 witnesses, the 144,000 and angelic evangelists will convert many.

The Antichrist will chase the unsaved out of Jerusalem, and sit on the Throne. I saw a passage that indicates they will flee to Moab. Even tho the 2 countries have been at odds forever. But now Moab takes them in and hides them, in the hills? I should've written down that scripture. I study till I pass out, sometimes.

I no longer think these events will take a long period of time for it to set up.

Not all of the Jews will turn to Jesus as Messiah. The Russians, Syria and Iran are joined to China now; building that road. Russia will be totally leveled by The Lord.

There's just so much picking up speed. Forever is Just a word now.

Mishael,

"Powerful people are pushing Israel to relinquish ALL the land that they reclaimed in the 6 Day War. Land that they need for all the Jews that will return."

I wonder whether we can bank on Gen 15:18 & 17:8, where God covenants with Abram that his seed will get all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates & ALL the Land of Canaan (for an everlasting possession). What the world (United Nations in 1947) has done to Israel is despicable & will be severely judged for this wicked act. To give Israel a sliver of land to ease their tainted consciences does despite to God's Holy Word. God does not forget His Promises & we will see mighty things happen in that land. Now, if only Israel would acknowledge their Messiah & repent of what they had done to him, Israel would be in a whole different situation now & truly "a holy & peculiar people unto the Lord" ( Deut 14:2).

I don't think so (desert)

I read that Moab doesn't have mountains, but 'rolling hills'. But in case, you're referring to Mt. Seir which is in Edom, then it is the mountainous region of Edom, between the Dead Sea & Gulf of Aqaba.

However, if you actually mean Moab, Utah, I further read that it does have mountains (La Sal mountains) and great lakes, very good for trout fishing.