Ezekiel 36:26 reads, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh"
You said,
"Israel failed with the Law of Moses and the tradition of their fathers. Only in Christ shall they reach that state"
Israel wasn't able to reach that state under the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law wasn't given for that purpose!
Ezekiel and Jeremiah states that God was going to do something NEW!
Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Ezekiel 11:19-20.
Ezekiel 36:26-27.
The Spirit within represents a NEW birth. The Law and the Prophet's taught this
Jesus counseled Nicodemus on this in
John 3:5-10.
Nicodemus was expected to Know this being that he was a Teacher of Israel.
The interpretation of the sticks is in passage. Ezekiel 37:16-21.
The two sticks represent the southern and the Northern Kingdom as mentioned.
Also, they will be gathered from every side and brought back into their own land.
Let's take Ezekiel 36 and Ezekiel 37 and put them in its proper context.
There's mention of a new heart and new spirit.
The dry bones.
The two sticks.
Their gathering.
and their own Land.
Ezekiel is writing during the captivity of Babylon but his writings extends past the captivity on into the latter days as do Daniel and Jeremiah.
Judgment of Israel is of a much broader scope than the Babylonian captivity.
We find that in Deuteronomy 28:37 ,64-68.
It's important to note that this dispersion is global, Not Babylon.
Also the gathering Ezekiel is talking about is global and exceeds Babylon.
This is a second gathering! Isaiah 11:9-12.
Isaiah 43:5-6.
When you read this you'll see that it has never happened.
They still have a heart of stone.
Some look at Israel today and say this must be the Church but "in those days" there is more to consider here than just the New heart concerning this prophecy.
Repentance: Granted by God AND lived out in the lives of true saints of Christ
Without a heart change; we won't have works that are done that produce any good fruit. Thus; we need the gift of repentance ( Rom. 9:15-16) to bring us to saving faith in order to have the desire in our hearts to serve; obey and love Christ ( Ezekiel 11:19; also see Mark 1:15).
An example of this is when Christ says that we who are evil still can give "good gifts" to our children ( Matt. 7:11). The problem with such actions isn't toward what is done for the recipient (unless there is a deliberate attempt to control; spoil or manipulate their behavior which may be more common than some parents want to believe). Another example would be with those who give their lives to charitable causes but choose not to preach the Gospel. I won't name names here but this has happened with famous people in the past; and there are charities today which I don't support that refuse to proclaim the Gospel.
Of course if the only repentance had to be the type associated with our moment of salvation there wouldn't be so many warnings not to fall away. We are foolish to be so myopic as to disregard examples throughout scripture where sins have destroyed lives; even of saints. We see people in the New Testament who die prematurely due to sinful lifestyles ( 1 Cor. 11:30; James 5 end of chapter). The whole of 1 Corinthians and much of 2 Corinthians shows a slew of problems such as incest; greed; disputes; gluttony; jealousies; etc that needed to be dealt with. It also shows how they were indeed to judge disputes among themselves not the world; in 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and several other passages in the same book regarding those living in grievous error and covering for women.
With the context of the church and the Old Testament we see that not only individuals but nations are petitioned to be forgiven (such as with Daniel's prayer after the 70 year exile). A little leaven ruins the lump.
Just to refer to some of your points, David0921. My "view of OT Salvation is a Gospel of Grace plus Works". I would rather define my view as: "FULL Salvation" was not known by the OT saints under the Law. Whereas the 'Gospel of Grace plus Works' would apply today, where man chooses to add his own efforts, even the Law, to make God's Grace truly effective. Israel could never be saved whilst under the Law, for the Law (& the Sacrifices) gave no salvific provision. Why God accepted them, was simply because of their relationship to God by their election, obedience & ordained sacrifices. But they had to, like all those pre-Cross, wait for Christ's redemptive Work to be completed.
Re: Nicodemus. Yes, he should have, as a teacher of the Torah & the Writings, picked up easily what Jesus was speaking about concerning re-birth. Scriptures such as Psalm 51;10, Psalm 51:16,17; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26 which Nico knew, should have immediately brought him understanding to the revelation Jesus just gave him. The OT saints could only yearn after such a cleansing of heart as God forgave them when they repented, but not until the Spirit of God would come (to whom Jesus pointed), would Nico & others experience that spiritual re-birth.
My great emphasis on the Luke 16 account is because I don't regard it as a parable. I've written before on this: that a parable (as Jesus gave), were simple, everyday stories that gave a view of Kingdom Life & God's Requirements. If the rich man, Lazarus, & Abraham being mentioned were simply a part of a parable (a non-specific account), then Jesus was lying, for no such situation ever existed or could exist in Hades & Jesus' disciples & Pharisees who were listening, would have been grossly misled into understanding about the after-life. Yes, the body lies in the grave, but the spirit lives on; & pre-Cross, Hades is given as that place.
The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.
Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).
I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to
Not to debate you on this because to hold the view you hold you would have to ignore 2 thirds of scripture.
Here's just a few.
Ezekiel 11:17-20 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Jeremiah 32:37-40. Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Isaiah 48:8-11. Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I KNEW THAT THOU WOULDEST DEAL VERY TREACHEROUSLY, AND WAST CALLED A TRANSGRESSORS FROM THE WOMB.
FOR MY NAME'S SAKE WILL I DEFER MINE ANGER, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
FOR MINE OWN SAKE, EVEN FOR MINE OWN SAKE, WILL I DO IT: FOR HOW SHOULD MY NAME BE POLLUTED? And I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER.
God's name is tied to the existence and restoration of Israel.
In the discourse to Nicodemus; the Godhead is once again refered to as "we" in v. 11. The famous John 3:16 has been used to raise an apparent contradiction. The "whosoever" has been considered the elect according to some. We should also keep in mind that we ALL were a part of the world before we were saved. Therefore; that shows our limit to the scope of time and space to the specifics of when we went from death to life. We should also bear in mind that there is a process involved where the Spirit convicts of sin; righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8). Repentance is also said to be something granted by God ( Acts 5:31; etal). Our own consciousness even in a darkened state can recognize consequences for sin and fear judgment
but until we see the light and undergo a heart change we won't want to be reproved (v. 20). (also see Ezekiel 11:19). After we are saved; there must be good works and continuing sanctification as v. 21 alludes to. Therefore; there is transformation occurring before we understand and make a verbal confession; and it continues throughout our lives.
The last part of the passage from verse 22 on show Johns discoursse; once again highlighting election. Verse 27 states that a man cannot recieve anything unless it be "given him from heaven". This theme is repeated in v. 31 and 32 that with earthly uderstanding no man receiveth his testimony (v. 32). Verse 33 seems to show to some extent how a believer is sealed as is shown in Ephesians 1:13-14 (I could use further clarification of that). Nonetheless; v. 36 again shows that someone who believes "on the Son" has everlasting life; and the contrary for those who don't including God's wrath.
The end of this passage is given more detail in other scriptures; including John. We must not only believe; but do as He says; for those who love Him will keep His commandments ( John 14:15). This makes love for one another paramount ( John 13:34)
There would seem to be two parameters here. We need to acknowledge that forgiveness of sins is still necessary after one is "Born Again" as long as we remain in our old bodies; with the potential for corrupted behaviors if we are not subject to Him in putting these old works to death. Since there are verses about sitting down before your brother before taking your gift before the altar and forgiving "seventy times seven" we certainly can bear the scars as long as we are in these mortal bodies because of the result of our sins. It was grace that allowed David to be forgiven of adultery and deliberately putting Uriah the Hittite in a position to be killed hence setting him up. Both sins according to the law were worthy of death; the Prophet told David that he would not die (grace); however he was to lose his child by Bathsheeba. This grief would not last forever; as David foresaw that he would go to see his child; not vice versa implying after his death. Consequences in Corinthians also show how communion unworthily taken can result in early death.
This begs the question as to whether anything can be forgiven for the unregenerate. On a surface level actions can be forgiven; at least among men. The comment to the Pharisee about those who are forgiven much love much ( Luke 7:36 and continuing into next chapter) shows that the heart of stone ( Ezekiel 11:19) was not converted in his case to one of flesh. All we can do as sinners is try to avoid the consequences of largely external actions. The heart where all the thoughts of evil or bad fruit come from ( Matthew 15:19) must be transformed so that we can understand we have offended a Holy God whenever we transgress against those made in the image of God (in reality in the image of man since Adam). All mankind should be treated with dignity as an eternal soul; even in a fallen state.
In short; we cannot lose our salvation but until glorification sin remains. We should mend things fast ( Prov. 18:19!)
Sometime we lose sight that the Gospel was preached to Abraham 430 years before this point: being the giving of the law.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as UNTO THEM .....
Those that fell in the wilderness.
John the Baptist came preaching the gospel.
After John was put in prison, Jesus came preaching the gospel.
Paul says my gospel.
What is this GOSPEL.
It CANNOT BE heaven and hell, else you would see the PROPHETS screaming this at the top of their lungs.
Amos 3:2 Surely the Lord God WILL DO NOTHING, but he REVEALETH HIS SECRETS unto his servants the PROPHETS.
The Book of Job is a PROPHESY.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day (future) when the Sons of God (the Called and Chosen) came to present themselves before the Lord (as a living sacrifice) and Satan (a deceitful and WICKED HEART living inside the called and chosen) came in WITH THEM.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then shall that WICKED be revealed ...
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him (the called and chosen), whose coming is after the working of Satan (a heart of stone, lies, deception, falsehoods and wickedness) ....
Ezekiel 11:9 And I will GIVE THEM (GRACE) ONE heart, and I will put a new spirit in you, and take the STONEY HEART (after the workings of Satan) out of their flesh, and GIVE THEM (GRACE) a heart of flesh (after the workings of Christ, LIFE and TRUTH).
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then shall that WICKED (SATANIC HEART) be revealed, whom the Lord shall CONSUME (for our God is a consuming fire) with the spirit of his mouth (his words of TRUTH), and shall DESTROY (that Satanic heart) with the brightness OF HIS COMING.
Matthew 12:28 But if I CAST OUT DEVILS (a STONY HEART) by the SPIRIT of God then the Kingdom of God is come unto YOU (Christ's Heart, Life and truth, REPLACING Satin's heart, lies, wickedness, a heart of antichrist).
All this is GOD'S WORK, man is just HEIR of these work's.
In the past I've used that analogy of the puzzle pieces. The Gospel paints a picture starting from Genesis.
The problem often comes when one have a picture in mind and try to fit pieces of the puzzles together that don't belong so they have to reshape the surrounding pieces to there liking, usually by spritualizing all the pieces/scripture, or they take one piece of a puzzle/scripture that represents their picture and try to fit it in a 1000 piece puzzle that it doesn't belong to, so they reshape the 1000 pieces by spritualizing.
Here's an example.
Who's the writer referring to here?
"Therefore my people" are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:13.
I've heard it taught that this was all of creation. ( A piece of puzzle that don't even fit the chapter or anywhere else in the 66 books. )
But if they would let the scripture say what it is saying you would find the answer throughout the chapter, especially verse 7.
"For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry"
Isaiah 5:7.
Here's just a few of many other puzzle pieces.
Exodus 3:10.
Exodus 5:1.
Exodus 8:23.
Leviticus 26:12.
1 Samuel 2:28-29.
1 Kings 6:12-13.
Isaiah 1:3.
Isaiah 10:24.
Isaiah 14:25.
Jeremiah 1:16.
Jeremiah 2:11.
Ezekiel 11:20.
Ect...
There's hundreds that reference Isaiah 5:13. to Israel!!
And Hosea 2:23 suggests God's not done with them. Also Romans 11:1.
God is in the generation of the righteous. Psalms 14:5.
We become his people by seeking him, not everyone will do this.
Zachariah gives a distinction between between the heathen nations and God's people. Zachariah 8:7.
Another distinction.
Mathew 7:21-23. You can't be his people and he not know you.
Salvation is a new creation in you performed by God.
Salvation is when "GOD TRANSFORM YOU" after you truly believing and trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. You have been transformed from dead to life. we're not perfect but we are transformed.
Here's a few old testament scripture that gives a description of salvation and how it's performed.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the LORD thy God will CIRCUMCISE thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. "Here you see the lord cutting away filthy flesh from your heart."
vs. 8. " This is what God causes you to do after cutting away the "flesh".
"And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day."
Jeremiah 24:7.
Jeremiah 31:33-34.
Jeremiah 32:38-40.
"I like vs 40! Eternal Security found in the old testament!
( And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me)
Ezekiel 11:19.
Ezekiel 36:25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I CLEANSE YOU.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. "Salvation is a cleansing!"
Salvation is a transformation by Gods spirit in you, and that comes by way of Jesus.
Salvation is a new creation in you performed by God.
Salvation is when "GOD TRANSFORM YOU" after you truly believing and trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. You have been transformed from dead to life. we're not perfect but we are transformed.
Here's a few old testament scripture that gives a description of salvation.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the LORD thy God will CIRCUMCISE thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. "Here you see the lord cutting away filthy flesh from your heart."
vs. 8. " This is what God causes you to do after cutting away the "flesh".
"And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day."
Jeremiah 24:7.
Jeremiah 31:33-34.
Jeremiah 32:38-40.
Ezekiel 11:19.
Ezekiel 36:25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I CLEANSE YOU.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. "Salvation is a cleansing!"
Salvation is a transformation by Gods spirit in you, and that comes by way of Jesus.
The sons of Korah had a dark history when the earth swallowed those directly involved in the rebellion in Numbers 16 where 250 were swallowed up by the earth and apparently went to hades immediately and while still alive. There could certainly be a recognition of the fate by the author who apparently at the very least was sympathetic to what happened. In regard to the text; where he says he is in the lower parts of the earth (v.6); and the hopelessness personally expressed here as in no other section of scripture it is certainly conceivable that he had a real revelation of hell. Such torments as listed in the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man
(starting in Luke 16:20) illustrate an account of an individual still in hell today from real life who is the nameless rich man. Such is the situation of the lost after death and this chapter should be enough to scare someone straight to repentance realizing there is no hope apart from Christ. Sadly; though when the rich man sought for someone to be raised from the dead he was told by Abraham that they would not listen; and the implication is that even those who see many not believe-as is evidenced by the rebellious Jews in the Book of Acts.
For the heart to respond it must be changed from the stony heart to one of flesh ( Ezekiel 11:19). It must be something which God grants to His elect; no man comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him first ( John 6:44). May He grant that to some today.
Jeremiah 17:9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
YOU ARE SO RIGHT, IN THE HEBREW I THINK IT ACTUALLY SAYS INCURABLY WICKED.
THAT'S WHY GOD DON'T REPAIR THE OLD HEART, HE GIVES US A NEW HEART.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 11:19. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I WILL TAKE THE STONY HEART OUT OF THEIR FLESH, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Proverbs 3:3-6. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Even the desciples was confused throughout Jesus ministry.
John 6:60-63. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.
John 16:12-13. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Above, and again 100 percent is JEHOVAH /GOD in full control. At that time above we again learn how man repeatably and boldly sowed sin, and the sown sin sooner or later produce a bountiful crop of sin whether individually or collectively. Nevertheless Jehovah is always the FINAL INSPECTOR, meaning GOD always allow man enough time to self inspect what we sow before FINAL INSPECTION by GOD. The above failed inspection by GOD and the rest is history. 2020 is a repeat of the above and more so sooner than later we to will be history, according to the entire book of Revelation. Them 7 SEALS in Revelation are TRUTH FROM GOD and John 3:16-21 is THE DOOR WE to enter into SALVATION. Holy, Holy...
What Ezekiel saw was a vision given to him by God. In Ezekiel 11:24 and 25, this is clearer. John was also given visions by our Lord. In Rev. 4:2 and 17:3, John writes about this.
"Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come." All the proud men who defied the Word of the LORD and stood to fight against the punishment and judgment of God, perished; but the humble and obedient were spared.
I realize how in Ezekiel everything is moving by the power of God the cherubs, Ezekiel being led by God to prophesy what thus saith the Lord. The Lord said he will lead you,and guide you and they that are led by the spirit of God they are the sons of God. Truly as being a christian we must allow God to lead, and guide us in everthing we do.
Verse 3: These men were acting contrary to the message that Jehovah God gave through Jeremiah and Ezekiel. It was not a time to build houses and they showed by their actions that they didn't believe Jehovah's word.
Jehovah God can give us a heart that is sensitive to his guidance. We must do our part by taking time to read the Bible, meditate and apply what we read.
My understanding is observed from verses 9,10, 11
first it states I will execute judgements among you (verse 9) and immediately Pelatiah drops dead! Revealing
Then twice the Lordt states I will judge you in the border of Israel, could it be so that they are being judged from then until now in the border of Israel? Then will be judged a second time as Jesus Messiah returns in the border of Israel?
The sense of the passage refers to the blessings of the gosple and is quoted by paul as such, as men believe the gosple God gives them a new heart and makes them new creatures in Christ Jesus. The work begins on earth and is completed in heaven
I extremely strongly suggest New Testament use New Testament of WESTERN ARAMAIC's WESTERN Peshitta that the New Testament will be 100% Clear, Accurate and Infailllible.
verse 18 19 20 let us do that today trusting in god to be our god and learn his word and live holy every day I love god words I enjoy all the question so when someone talk to me about the bible I want God to use me to speak his word at any time
Pt 1
Ezekiel 36:26 reads, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh"
You said,
"Israel failed with the Law of Moses and the tradition of their fathers. Only in Christ shall they reach that state"
Israel wasn't able to reach that state under the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law wasn't given for that purpose!
Ezekiel and Jeremiah states that God was going to do something NEW!
Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Ezekiel 11:19-20.
Ezekiel 36:26-27.
The Spirit within represents a NEW birth. The Law and the Prophet's taught this
Jesus counseled Nicodemus on this in
John 3:5-10.
Nicodemus was expected to Know this being that he was a Teacher of Israel.
The interpretation of the sticks is in passage. Ezekiel 37:16-21.
The two sticks represent the southern and the Northern Kingdom as mentioned.
Also, they will be gathered from every side and brought back into their own land.
Let's take Ezekiel 36 and Ezekiel 37 and put them in its proper context.
There's mention of a new heart and new spirit.
The dry bones.
The two sticks.
Their gathering.
and their own Land.
Ezekiel is writing during the captivity of Babylon but his writings extends past the captivity on into the latter days as do Daniel and Jeremiah.
Judgment of Israel is of a much broader scope than the Babylonian captivity.
We find that in Deuteronomy 28:37 ,64-68.
It's important to note that this dispersion is global, Not Babylon.
Also the gathering Ezekiel is talking about is global and exceeds Babylon.
This is a second gathering! Isaiah 11:9-12.
Isaiah 43:5-6.
When you read this you'll see that it has never happened.
They still have a heart of stone.
Some look at Israel today and say this must be the Church but "in those days" there is more to consider here than just the New heart concerning this prophecy.
look at the previous verses. Isaiah 11:6-9.
See pt 2.
Without a heart change; we won't have works that are done that produce any good fruit. Thus; we need the gift of repentance ( Rom. 9:15-16) to bring us to saving faith in order to have the desire in our hearts to serve; obey and love Christ ( Ezekiel 11:19; also see Mark 1:15).
An example of this is when Christ says that we who are evil still can give "good gifts" to our children ( Matt. 7:11). The problem with such actions isn't toward what is done for the recipient (unless there is a deliberate attempt to control; spoil or manipulate their behavior which may be more common than some parents want to believe). Another example would be with those who give their lives to charitable causes but choose not to preach the Gospel. I won't name names here but this has happened with famous people in the past; and there are charities today which I don't support that refuse to proclaim the Gospel.
Of course if the only repentance had to be the type associated with our moment of salvation there wouldn't be so many warnings not to fall away. We are foolish to be so myopic as to disregard examples throughout scripture where sins have destroyed lives; even of saints. We see people in the New Testament who die prematurely due to sinful lifestyles ( 1 Cor. 11:30; James 5 end of chapter). The whole of 1 Corinthians and much of 2 Corinthians shows a slew of problems such as incest; greed; disputes; gluttony; jealousies; etc that needed to be dealt with. It also shows how they were indeed to judge disputes among themselves not the world; in 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and several other passages in the same book regarding those living in grievous error and covering for women.
With the context of the church and the Old Testament we see that not only individuals but nations are petitioned to be forgiven (such as with Daniel's prayer after the 70 year exile). A little leaven ruins the lump.
Just to refer to some of your points, David0921. My "view of OT Salvation is a Gospel of Grace plus Works". I would rather define my view as: "FULL Salvation" was not known by the OT saints under the Law. Whereas the 'Gospel of Grace plus Works' would apply today, where man chooses to add his own efforts, even the Law, to make God's Grace truly effective. Israel could never be saved whilst under the Law, for the Law (& the Sacrifices) gave no salvific provision. Why God accepted them, was simply because of their relationship to God by their election, obedience & ordained sacrifices. But they had to, like all those pre-Cross, wait for Christ's redemptive Work to be completed.
Re: Nicodemus. Yes, he should have, as a teacher of the Torah & the Writings, picked up easily what Jesus was speaking about concerning re-birth. Scriptures such as Psalm 51;10, Psalm 51:16,17; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:26 which Nico knew, should have immediately brought him understanding to the revelation Jesus just gave him. The OT saints could only yearn after such a cleansing of heart as God forgave them when they repented, but not until the Spirit of God would come (to whom Jesus pointed), would Nico & others experience that spiritual re-birth.
My great emphasis on the Luke 16 account is because I don't regard it as a parable. I've written before on this: that a parable (as Jesus gave), were simple, everyday stories that gave a view of Kingdom Life & God's Requirements. If the rich man, Lazarus, & Abraham being mentioned were simply a part of a parable (a non-specific account), then Jesus was lying, for no such situation ever existed or could exist in Hades & Jesus' disciples & Pharisees who were listening, would have been grossly misled into understanding about the after-life. Yes, the body lies in the grave, but the spirit lives on; & pre-Cross, Hades is given as that place.
The bulk of this discussion is focused on men who profess to believe as a Christian and who are seeking faith as a means to an end. This; in my opinion is far more insidious; and leads to greater judgment than the average pagan who overtly worship false gods. We have discussed Lot's wife; and of course in New Testament times we have warnings such as Hebrews 10:29 to seriously consider as well as the previous verse. We have more than the law now; we have the Bible; the written testimony of God with His redemptive plan for us.
Part of the problem; as I have pointed out a number of times is the concept of "decisional regeneration". We can follow the admonition of Romans 10:9 and attest to the veracity of John 3:16 and a few other basic verses on salvation for a number of reasons; but apart from a transformation through the Holy Spirit and God drawing a person toward repentance we are NOT saved. This concept is found in 5 scriptures as either granting or leading someone to repenetance (see 2 Tim. 2:25; Romans 2:4). Two types of sorrow are mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:10; godly and worldly sorrow. The end result is either spiritual death or life. (compare Peter to Judas Iscariot after Gethsemene; and until His crucifixion for examples of these two types of sorrow). I would go farther though; some of us haven't even considered the consequences of our sins and how it would affect us at the end of this life; and Judgment Day. Fear of hell may not save someone without an appreciation for the Holiness of God and how we have offended our Creator; which comes in a large part after we are saved (experientially slow for some; immediate for others). But true repentance gives us some realization of our state apart from Christ along with a new heart ( Ezekiel 11:19-20).
I will say that in today's world; it is going to get very costly to even confess Christ; assuming; of course it is real church that we are declaring allegiance to
Not to debate you on this because to hold the view you hold you would have to ignore 2 thirds of scripture.
Here's just a few.
Ezekiel 11:17-20 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Jeremiah 32:37-40. Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Isaiah 48:8-11. Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I KNEW THAT THOU WOULDEST DEAL VERY TREACHEROUSLY, AND WAST CALLED A TRANSGRESSORS FROM THE WOMB.
FOR MY NAME'S SAKE WILL I DEFER MINE ANGER, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
FOR MINE OWN SAKE, EVEN FOR MINE OWN SAKE, WILL I DO IT: FOR HOW SHOULD MY NAME BE POLLUTED? And I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER.
God's name is tied to the existence and restoration of Israel.
In the discourse to Nicodemus; the Godhead is once again refered to as "we" in v. 11. The famous John 3:16 has been used to raise an apparent contradiction. The "whosoever" has been considered the elect according to some. We should also keep in mind that we ALL were a part of the world before we were saved. Therefore; that shows our limit to the scope of time and space to the specifics of when we went from death to life. We should also bear in mind that there is a process involved where the Spirit convicts of sin; righteousness and judgment to come ( John 16:8). Repentance is also said to be something granted by God ( Acts 5:31; etal). Our own consciousness even in a darkened state can recognize consequences for sin and fear judgment
but until we see the light and undergo a heart change we won't want to be reproved (v. 20). (also see Ezekiel 11:19). After we are saved; there must be good works and continuing sanctification as v. 21 alludes to. Therefore; there is transformation occurring before we understand and make a verbal confession; and it continues throughout our lives.
The last part of the passage from verse 22 on show Johns discoursse; once again highlighting election. Verse 27 states that a man cannot recieve anything unless it be "given him from heaven". This theme is repeated in v. 31 and 32 that with earthly uderstanding no man receiveth his testimony (v. 32). Verse 33 seems to show to some extent how a believer is sealed as is shown in Ephesians 1:13-14 (I could use further clarification of that). Nonetheless; v. 36 again shows that someone who believes "on the Son" has everlasting life; and the contrary for those who don't including God's wrath.
The end of this passage is given more detail in other scriptures; including John. We must not only believe; but do as He says; for those who love Him will keep His commandments ( John 14:15). This makes love for one another paramount ( John 13:34)
This begs the question as to whether anything can be forgiven for the unregenerate. On a surface level actions can be forgiven; at least among men. The comment to the Pharisee about those who are forgiven much love much ( Luke 7:36 and continuing into next chapter) shows that the heart of stone ( Ezekiel 11:19) was not converted in his case to one of flesh. All we can do as sinners is try to avoid the consequences of largely external actions. The heart where all the thoughts of evil or bad fruit come from ( Matthew 15:19) must be transformed so that we can understand we have offended a Holy God whenever we transgress against those made in the image of God (in reality in the image of man since Adam). All mankind should be treated with dignity as an eternal soul; even in a fallen state.
In short; we cannot lose our salvation but until glorification sin remains. We should mend things fast ( Prov. 18:19!)
In you post to GiGi you said:
Sometime we lose sight that the Gospel was preached to Abraham 430 years before this point: being the giving of the law.
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as UNTO THEM .....
Those that fell in the wilderness.
John the Baptist came preaching the gospel.
After John was put in prison, Jesus came preaching the gospel.
Paul says my gospel.
What is this GOSPEL.
It CANNOT BE heaven and hell, else you would see the PROPHETS screaming this at the top of their lungs.
Amos 3:2 Surely the Lord God WILL DO NOTHING, but he REVEALETH HIS SECRETS unto his servants the PROPHETS.
The Book of Job is a PROPHESY.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day (future) when the Sons of God (the Called and Chosen) came to present themselves before the Lord (as a living sacrifice) and Satan (a deceitful and WICKED HEART living inside the called and chosen) came in WITH THEM.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then shall that WICKED be revealed ...
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him (the called and chosen), whose coming is after the working of Satan (a heart of stone, lies, deception, falsehoods and wickedness) ....
Ezekiel 11:9 And I will GIVE THEM (GRACE) ONE heart, and I will put a new spirit in you, and take the STONEY HEART (after the workings of Satan) out of their flesh, and GIVE THEM (GRACE) a heart of flesh (after the workings of Christ, LIFE and TRUTH).
2 Thessalonians 2:8 Then shall that WICKED (SATANIC HEART) be revealed, whom the Lord shall CONSUME (for our God is a consuming fire) with the spirit of his mouth (his words of TRUTH), and shall DESTROY (that Satanic heart) with the brightness OF HIS COMING.
Matthew 12:28 But if I CAST OUT DEVILS (a STONY HEART) by the SPIRIT of God then the Kingdom of God is come unto YOU (Christ's Heart, Life and truth, REPLACING Satin's heart, lies, wickedness, a heart of antichrist).
All this is GOD'S WORK, man is just HEIR of these work's.
God Bless YOU!
In the past I've used that analogy of the puzzle pieces. The Gospel paints a picture starting from Genesis.
The problem often comes when one have a picture in mind and try to fit pieces of the puzzles together that don't belong so they have to reshape the surrounding pieces to there liking, usually by spritualizing all the pieces/scripture, or they take one piece of a puzzle/scripture that represents their picture and try to fit it in a 1000 piece puzzle that it doesn't belong to, so they reshape the 1000 pieces by spritualizing.
Here's an example.
Who's the writer referring to here?
"Therefore my people" are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:13.
I've heard it taught that this was all of creation. ( A piece of puzzle that don't even fit the chapter or anywhere else in the 66 books. )
But if they would let the scripture say what it is saying you would find the answer throughout the chapter, especially verse 7.
"For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry"
Isaiah 5:7.
Here's just a few of many other puzzle pieces.
Exodus 3:10.
Exodus 5:1.
Exodus 8:23.
Leviticus 26:12.
1 Samuel 2:28-29.
1 Kings 6:12-13.
Isaiah 1:3.
Isaiah 10:24.
Isaiah 14:25.
Jeremiah 1:16.
Jeremiah 2:11.
Ezekiel 11:20.
Ect...
There's hundreds that reference Isaiah 5:13. to Israel!!
And Hosea 2:23 suggests God's not done with them. Also Romans 11:1.
God is in the generation of the righteous. Psalms 14:5.
We become his people by seeking him, not everyone will do this.
Zachariah gives a distinction between between the heathen nations and God's people. Zachariah 8:7.
Another distinction.
Mathew 7:21-23. You can't be his people and he not know you.
Heresies are built this way.
God bless.
"Answer"
Salvation is life!
Salvation is a new creation in you performed by God.
Salvation is when "GOD TRANSFORM YOU" after you truly believing and trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. You have been transformed from dead to life. we're not perfect but we are transformed.
Here's a few old testament scripture that gives a description of salvation and how it's performed.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the LORD thy God will CIRCUMCISE thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. "Here you see the lord cutting away filthy flesh from your heart."
vs. 8. " This is what God causes you to do after cutting away the "flesh".
"And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day."
Jeremiah 24:7.
Jeremiah 31:33-34.
Jeremiah 32:38-40.
"I like vs 40! Eternal Security found in the old testament!
( And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me)
Ezekiel 11:19.
Ezekiel 36:25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I CLEANSE YOU.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. "Salvation is a cleansing!"
Salvation is a transformation by Gods spirit in you, and that comes by way of Jesus.
New Testament references.
John 15:1-8.
John 10:27-29.
John 6:45.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
Philippians 1:6.
Colossians 3:10.
Romans 6:17-18.
God bless.
Salvation is life!
Salvation is a new creation in you performed by God.
Salvation is when "GOD TRANSFORM YOU" after you truly believing and trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. You have been transformed from dead to life. we're not perfect but we are transformed.
Here's a few old testament scripture that gives a description of salvation.
Deuteronomy 30:6. And the LORD thy God will CIRCUMCISE thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. "Here you see the lord cutting away filthy flesh from your heart."
vs. 8. " This is what God causes you to do after cutting away the "flesh".
"And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day."
Jeremiah 24:7.
Jeremiah 31:33-34.
Jeremiah 32:38-40.
Ezekiel 11:19.
Ezekiel 36:25. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I CLEANSE YOU.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. "Salvation is a cleansing!"
Salvation is a transformation by Gods spirit in you, and that comes by way of Jesus.
New Testament references.
John 15:1-8.
John 10:27-29.
John 6:45.
Ephesians 2:1-10.
Philippians 1:6.
Colossians 3:10.
Romans 6:17-18.
I know this is a lot,
I pray you read over them.
God bless.
(starting in Luke 16:20) illustrate an account of an individual still in hell today from real life who is the nameless rich man. Such is the situation of the lost after death and this chapter should be enough to scare someone straight to repentance realizing there is no hope apart from Christ. Sadly; though when the rich man sought for someone to be raised from the dead he was told by Abraham that they would not listen; and the implication is that even those who see many not believe-as is evidenced by the rebellious Jews in the Book of Acts.
For the heart to respond it must be changed from the stony heart to one of flesh ( Ezekiel 11:19). It must be something which God grants to His elect; no man comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him first ( John 6:44). May He grant that to some today.
Can you give us a specific verse?
God bless.
Jeremiah 17:9. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
YOU ARE SO RIGHT, IN THE HEBREW I THINK IT ACTUALLY SAYS INCURABLY WICKED.
THAT'S WHY GOD DON'T REPAIR THE OLD HEART, HE GIVES US A NEW HEART.
Ezekiel 36:26-27. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 11:19. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I WILL TAKE THE STONY HEART OUT OF THEIR FLESH, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Proverbs 3:3-6. Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Even the desciples was confused throughout Jesus ministry.
John 6:60-63. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.
John 16:12-13. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
ALSO
1 CORINTHIANS CH 2.
GOD BLESS.
first it states I will execute judgements among you (verse 9) and immediately Pelatiah drops dead! Revealing
Then twice the Lordt states I will judge you in the border of Israel, could it be so that they are being judged from then until now in the border of Israel? Then will be judged a second time as Jesus Messiah returns in the border of Israel?
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
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