Discuss Genesis 17 Page 5

Circumcision is in the Heart

Comment by Mishael: In the Bible circumcision was the sign of being in covenant with God. In the New Testament Paul had to teach that circumcision was now in the heart. (Stoned many times for that). A new and better Covenant was secured by Jesus on the Cross; ratified by His own blood.

OLD TESTAMENT

Genesis 17:10

This is my COVENANT which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:11

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the COVENANT betwixt me and you.

Genesis 17:12

And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Genesis 17:13

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 10:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your HEART and be no more stiffnecked.

NEW TESTAMENT

Acts 7:51

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in HEART AND EARS, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you (now).

Harold Denley,

"what does the word circumcision mean i dont understand what it talking about?"

Genesis 17:9-13, The rite was a sign of the covenant between God and the children of Abraham. In Romans 3 Paul is stating that while there was an advantage of God revealing himself through the children of Israel, it was not a guarantee of their being right with him in their hearts and truely having faith. Romans 4:8-14 is where Paul reminds us that Abraham was promised blessing and God continues to be faithful to that promise, because his true heirs live by faith also, not in the letter of laws and rites.

No.

Ezekiel 27 & 28 describes the King of Tyre as making himself a "god" and was called a "cherub" and referenced "Eden, the garden of God" This Cherub was "perfect" in beauty, faultless in his ways from creation onward until unrighteousness was found in him. Ez 27:3, 28:12,15

Isaiah 42:12 Reference the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Joseph, David, Josiah, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Jesus, the Apostles, etc. This Almighty God of Israel is the creator of all living things. In Psalms 83:18 he is called Jehovah God.

If you look in one of the earliest King James Bible of 1611 you'll see that name. Most modern translations have removed that name and substituted it with Lord claiming since the original pronunciation was lost it makes sense to remove it as if the Almighty doesn't exist. Also the divine name Jehovah or Adhonai or Elohim in some translation appears in the Tetragrammaton close to 7000 times so removing the name removes the knowledge and understanding of the Almighty and creates confusion. He just wasn't a tribal God in Isaiah 54:5 it says "....He will be called the God of the whole earth." Psalm 124:8 Jehovah is called the maker of heaven and earth.

Jesus who was a Jew also recognized the God of Israel as being Jehovah or Yahweh. Remember the Jewish clergy during the time of Jesus wanted to bring charges against Jesus in order to put him to death for blashemy so any of worship or acknowledgement he gave to any other god would have given them this opportunity. Plus Genesis 17:1, Isaiah 45:18, Psalm 83:18 refers to Jehovah God being one God. Deuteronomy 6:4,5 also call Jehovah one Jehovah. This is in harmony with Mark 12:29, Romans 3:29-30, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Timothy 2:5 all these scriptures refer to one God.

For Jesus to believe in multiple gods or a triune god would be paramount to apostasy for a Jew and thus grounds for death. Also Roman Zeus was a triune god and existed during this time.

The word 'heart' is a strange word. As you know, we have it in normal English usage & we find it in the Bible as well. There's no specific meaning one can give to it; the best I can do, is to say that the word 'heart' is used when we want to describe someone's innermost being, expressed in the mind, the emotions or in spiritual matters. Just as one's soul & spirit are defined in the Bible & these are the immaterial parts of us, so to our 'heart' is immaterial & probably serves to describe the activity of soul and/or spirit.

The Bible is replete with references to the 'heart': Genesis 6:5,6; Genesis 17:17; Genesis 45:26; Jeremiah 17:9 are just a few examples of the ways that 'heart' is used in the Bible. So when I wrote, "fully convinced in our hearts", my thoughts were on the combination of our mental & emotional aspects, whereby we must firmly believe in mind & display of emotional strength, as we stand against any that should come against us.

As a sideline, the Bible also uses the word 'bowels'. This can refer to our bodily insides ( Genesis 15:4) but also refer to what we denote to the heart, except using the older English expression. So we have Genesis 43:30, Philemon 1:7 as a couple of examples of that. I trust you can see the use of the word 'heart' (& bowels) in Scripture.

Genesis 25:1 I've sometimes wondered why the concubine Keturah had to come into the picture here. Abraham had questioned whether he could father a child at 100 years of age ( Genesis 17:17) and he is about 140 by this time. Isaac, his true heir and the son of promise, was at least 40 and had married Rebekah to insure the continuation of the lineage. And one of these sons of Keturah, Midian (verse 2) was presumably the father of the Midianites, who caused Israel so much grief later on ( Judges 6)

HI Anonymous. PG 2. Genesis 17:20-21. Ishmael I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; 12 princes he will beget, and will make him a great nation, But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this time set time in the next year...As you study Galatians Ch 4, you see in verses 4:22-31, you see the working of 2 covenants which all man kind is under one or another, But our focus is on the seed and the promise: Gal.4:28. Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Galatians 3:6-8, Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith are children of Abraham... Now Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not and to seeds, as of many; but to as of one, And that seed ,which is Christ. Hebrews 6:13-20, For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he swear by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater; and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife-

PG 1: Hi anonymous, the wages of sin is death, and eternally separated from God: Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for all has sinned... Romans 5:19, For by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one "Christ" shall many be made righteous. In Genesis 3:21, God made coats of skins to clothed Adam and Eve, rejecting them attempting to clothed themselves, in which he made an atonement for their transgression pointing to a future sacrifice lamb "Christ" that would take away the sins of the world. In Genesis 12:3, God tells Abraham in him all the families of the earth shall be blessed, In Genesis 15:1-6, God promise Abraham a son "Isaac" through which his seed be called, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED" In Genesis 15:8-17 God puts Abraham to sleep to perform an unconditional covenant with him, Which depends on Gods promise not Abraham efforts. In Genesis 16:1-4, Abraham and Sarah decided to assist God in his promise and decided to parent a child through Sarah's handmaid and bared him a son Ismael, Genesis 17:18-21, God rejects Ismael as the covenant child, "Heir" according to the promise.

I agree with you, that this passage can appear confusing, so we need to look a little at its history.

The requirement for male circumcision was ordered by the LORD under the Abrahamic Covenant ( Genesis 17:11-12) & this was one of the signs (a token) of God's Covenant between Him & Israel. The Israelites were in bondage in Egypt, so this rite was either not performed or not done correctly there; but before reaching the Promised Land, Joshua had to re-circumcise all the males: Joshua 5:2.

With that history in mind, when we look at Exodus chapter 4, we see Moses, after disputing with the LORD about going to meet Pharaoh, finally preparing to return to Egypt to secure the release of the Israelites there. Then in verse 24, we read while Moses' family was travelling & in the Inn, "that the LORD met him (Moses), and sought to kill him (Moses)." Some interpret the "him" as Pharaoh's firstborn son, but that wouldn't make sense, as he was to be the bargaining tool to secure the Israelites' release. Nor could it apply to Moses' son, as at that age (?), the parents were still responsible for having the circumcision performed. It's doubtful that the LORD would have followed through with killing Moses, rather that GOD showed His extreme displeasure in no uncertain terms.

What we don't read in verse 24, is how the LORD was dealing with Moses about his failure to circumcise his son. Because of Moses' failure to do this prior to returning to Egypt, God's Anger was kindled & He had showed them both that Moses' life was at stake. Zipporah, his wife, immediately took the initiative & circumcised their son, & in anger called Moses, 'a bridegroom of blood' (her husband's failure to have their son properly circumcised forcing her to do the job). Moses may have had his reasons for not circumcising (it's suggested that he didn't want it done in the Egyptian manner which was different to what God prescribed), but his failure to do so, brought on God's displeasure & anger against him.

This reference from Genesis 17:1 tells us that God required Abram, even in old age, to always maintain the Living God in the centre of his life & to be 'perfect' (or, blameless, upright, sincere). It isn't that Abram should be sinless, as none of us can ever be, but that 'perfection' is Abram's (& our) standing before God. And in that standing, we are to be upright & sincere in our lives.

Today, through Jesus' Sacrifice & our faith in Him, are counted as blameless in God's Eyes. Not that we have done anything to secure that position, but that when God looks at us, He sees us through the death & resurrection of His Son & counts us as blameless (justified): freed from guilt & punishment. If God looked only at man's sin, we all stand guilty before Him. But God gave us His Sacrifice so that we wouldn't bear His punishment for our sins.

Jesus often spoke of Himself as Son of Man as He sometimes referred to Himself as Son of God. He was correct in doing so, as He was both: He was the Word of God made flesh (man) John 1:1-14 and He was also a Man (by that same reference & the account of His human birth: Matthew 1:20-25). For His Own reasons, Jesus used these designations interchangeably depending on who He was speaking to & in what context. In any case, those that heard His teachings & saw His miracles knew that Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was clear & specific. Even at the cross, they cried out to Him, "If Thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross" ( Matthew 27:40).

Adam & Eve were our first parents & it wasn't until a specific calling (of Abraham) that a holy line of people began to form. True, of the sons of Noah (i.e. prior to Abraham), Shem was elected to be the forefather of the later nation of Israel. And from Shem, Abraham came & became the promise of being the father of a great nation ( Genesis 12:1-3) & of many nations ( Genesis 17:1-5). As the nation of Israel grew in number & expanded by conquering opposing lands, they began to intermarry with the Canaanite nations, when clearly forbidden to do so by God: Deuteronomy 7:1-4; 1 Kings 11:1,2; Nehemiah 13:3, 23-27. Therefore, I feel that there are no pure Jews today; even though some would have stayed true to the Word of God, maybe their children (even a few) chose to intermarry, then that purity would continue to diminish over succeeding generations. I hope that is what you were seeking to know Joseph.

Comment by Mishael: In the Bible circumcision was the sign of being in covenant with God. In the New Testament Paul had to teach that circumcision was now in the heart. (Stoned many times for that). A new and better Covenant was secured by Jesus on the Cross; ratified by His own blood.

NOTE: Women are to be circumcised in the heart too. Salvation is a decision of the heart. Coming to Christ for Salvation, circumcises your heart and you are in covenant with God. Blameless.

OLD TESTAMENT

Genesis 17:10

This is my COVENANT which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:11

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the COVENANT betwixt me and you.

Genesis 17:12

And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Genesis 17:13

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 10:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your HEART and be no more stiffnecked.

NEW TESTAMENT

Acts 7:51

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in HEART AND EARS, you do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do you (now).

Type in your ? in box above. Theres an old map which will show you what you need. Type old bible maps.

Revelation 2:7-17

Isaiah 62:2

Genesis 17:1-5

Genesis 25 - 32: 32:28



May the HOLY SPIRIT lead you in all truth & guidance.

This is what this websites commentary box says for these verses. By Matthew Henry, 1610.

31-45 This image represented the kingdoms of the earth, that should successively rule the nations, and influence the affairs of the Jewish church. 1. The head of gold signified the Chaldean empire, then in being. 2. The breast and arms of silver signified the empire of the Medes and Persians. 3. The belly and thighs of brass signified the Grecian empire, founded by Alexander. 4. The legs and feet of iron signified the Roman empire. The Roman empire branched into ten kingdoms, as the toes of these feet. Some were weak as clay, others strong as iron. Endeavours have often been used to unite them, for strengthening the empire, but in vain. The stone cut out without hands, represented the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, which should be set up in the kingdoms of the world, upon the ruins of Satan's kingdom in them. This was the Stone which the builders refused, because it was not cut out by their hands, but it is become the head stone of the corner. Of the increase of Christ's government and peace there shall be no end. The Lord shall reign, not only to the end of time, but when time and days shall be no more. As far as events have gone, the fulfilling this prophetic vision has been most exact and undeniable; future ages shall witness this Stone destroying the image, and filling the whole earth.

Mishael: after Rome fell, there would be 10 kingdoms (I think, within the Middle East and surrounding).

Genesis 17:20-21 God blessed Abraham's son, Ishmael; and spoke of 12 princes and kingdoms, wealth and power. Powers over there are shifting around.

Daniel is hard to understand, but scripture prophesies Daniel 12:9-10, that near the end, the wise would understand.

Mishael

The Torah and the Bible have recorded Gods dealings with Abraham, Sarah; Hagar; Ishmael and Isaac.

In the King James Version of the Bible: chapters 16-21 are recorded the covenants and the blessings on Abraham's seed: Isaac and Ishmael.

Ishmael: see Genesis 17:18-26, 17:24-26

Genesis 16:11-16, Genesis 21:12-18

The Covenant of the Land of Canaan (Israel)

Genesis 17:7-8

God never meant for history to have experienced all the wars fought in the Middle East. He made Covenants with both of Abraham's sons. Through Ishmael was gained wealth, lands, commerce with powerful princes and kings descended through Abraham.

God had already decided to bless the son born between Abraham and Sarah, even before Ishmael was born. In Gods permissive will, He allowed it; and later gave a covenant inheritance to Ishmael.

Gods Perfect Will was continued through Isaac and his descendants.

He's God. We don't get to tell Him how to bless his people. The Bible says of God: I change NOT.

God chose every human being that was directly involved in producing THE MESSIAH, that would save all mankind that would receive Him.

This is all going to bring everyone on earth, to the Book of Revelation. I know, not everyone accepts it, but it's still there like a gigantic signpost at the end of this road we're all on. It's not going away. Even if we burn all the books and launch all the nukes; it will still be there. That is not me talking; it is the words of the Bible; carried and protected, throughout history. Also known as the Dead Sea scrolls.

Jesus was, and is the Messiah. He wants all sons and daughters of Abraham's seed to trust their mortal and eternal lives with the promised Messiah. All must have their names recorded in his Book of Life. (Read Revelation)

Mishael

In the Bible it states the land that was given to Ishmael. Can you tell me where that is located at.

I know where Isaac's is. I read Ishmael a long time ago but I can't seem to locate it.

Thank you for a timely reply!

Patti Hatch

Abraham is told ( Gen 17:6) that nations and kings would come from him. Do these nations exist today? If yes, then who are these nations?

Thank you so much.

Bob

So Abraham is not the father of all nations. According to verse 4 above, God told him he will be the father of many nations. So,the rest of the bible follow the path of Abraham's lineage.

You have to choose one book or the other eventually. One follows Muhammad, the other follows Jesus, the son of God.

Both came through the bloodline of Abraham, until Mary, of the bloodline of King David. That's why Jesus said he was the Son of Man.

Ishmaels bloodline was through Abraham and Haggar. God blessed Ishmael with good things: recorded in the Bible.

However, God had made a Covenant with Abraham that would be passed down through the son, Issac. Jesus's mother would come through that bloodline.

Read in Genesis 17: 19-21. Ishmael's blessing verse 20.

There's just differences between the Bible and the Quran. I'd go with what speaks to my heart and soothes my soul; but that's just me.

I grew up in a church that preached so much hell fire damnation that I was more fascinated by the various colors the pastors face showed. Pink meant it was time to go home.

I've had Muslim neighbors. They're very family oriented. Older relatives are treated with respect. Very approachable and kind.

That is right: MANY NATIONS. Abraham had Isaac ... and Ishmael. Israel is one nation and>

Genesis 17: 18-21

Ishmael was born in Gods permissive will.

God blessed him

Will make him fruitful

Will multiply him exceedingly:

Twelve princes shall he beget

I will make him a great nation

That explains a lot I think, but read also Genesis 18: 18-19 There is a note to read: Gen 12:3, 22:28, psalm 72:17, Acts 3:25, Gal. 3:8-9, 16, 18

Isaac gets Israel (all the land of Canaan). I'd have to look at maps later.

There is great resentment in Israel right now. Palestinians want the land back pure & simple. They want everything that was Destroyed to be rebuilt, infrastructure and full access to Jerusalem. They want everything that the war of 1967 gained!!! It's mind boggling. Israel gets to be a state but loses what they fought for independence to regain.

This is the engine that is hurrying the earth to conclusion. It's partly why we are commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. God is NOT going to rescind the covenant with Abraham.

One point about the Antichrist is found in Daniel 11:37....neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard ANY god: for he shall magnify himself. [a note refers to Isaiah 14:13 here]

Bottom line is that Antichrist is most likely descended from Ishmael. But he has no regard for his heritage.

He's moving under the radar but if enough people read Jerusalem Post dot com ?? We may see him in a crowd with a smirk.

The prophesies are about the Covenant; the land God has given to Israel through Isaac.

There are many people's that are returning that believe Jesus is the Messiah; they're happy about it; most likely have churches; evangelize...

How can you despise that? Israel is the apple of Gods eye. He rejects orthodox Torah carrying boneheads that will not receive His son. He is turning up the pressure every day. God has a plan! Quit railing and you will see.

Mishael - God himself has to bring ISRAEL to the land, not the godless antichrist United Nations, whose printer used to be called Lucifer Publishing and now is Lucis publishing.

Jeremiah 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

God promised Abraham he would be the Father of MANY NATIONS.

Genesis 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of MANY NATIONS have I made thee.

If the "Jews" are all of Abraham, then where are all these MANY "jewish nations".

There is only one and it was created by the antichrist United Nations and one is not many.

Either God lied (impossible) or the Jews are not all of Israel.

Where are the MANY JEWISH NATIONS of Abraham?

Besides Judah and Israel were not the same people. God divorced Israel and not Judah. One tribe does not equal many

Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Israel and Judah had wars and different kings with different capitols. Samaria was capitol of Israel.

Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does this mean that those in Christ ARE Abraham's seed?

Micah 3:10 - They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.

What is different between inspiration and revelation with Bible reference

I think most males now days are circumcised when they are born. If I am circumcised, does that make me a Jew? I'm not as far as I know.

Alex I am with Karl on this. We should strive for perfection ROM 6:12 Let not sin reign in your mortal bodies. Strive to enter in at the strait gate Luke 13:24 . Christians should be a reflection of Christ and be Christ like.

Please pray for the revelation of who the 'Jews' are and who 'YAH' is speaking to. One note to share is that there were 'many nations' already on the earth when 'YAH' gave his covenant to Abraham. He only was speaking to 'HIS' seed. Gentiles were not part of this promise and were later 'grafted' in because of the sins of Judah. Please do not confuse the readers by bringing your opinions.

Cheryl, Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Karl the Ultimate PERFECTION cd only come via the Blood of Christ,the NEW covenant. Men from the O.T. acheived a TYPE OF perfection by FLESHLY Circumcision a type of the CIRCUMCISION THAT CAN ONLY COME VIA THE SWORD OF CHRIST. The ultimate PERFECTION CD ONLY COME VIA THAT 2 ND COVENANT. BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKETH AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.TO WHOM THE WORD CAME IT MADE THEM GODS PERFECTION

Genesis 17:1 - Almighty God, Yahweh (YHWH) commands Abram (Abraham) to walk before
him and to be PERFECT in the Old Testament. In Matthew 5:48 Christ says " be ye PERFECT
as your Father which is in Heaven is Perfect". Here we have clear, irrefutable evidence that despite what many people say and teach about no one can be perfect, we find out from the
word of God that we can in fact achieve it.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly*; neither is that circumcision, which is outward* in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly*; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

ALL PRAISES TO THE MOST HIGH!
It said he will be THE FATHER of many nations, NOT all nations; Gen 17:4.
Bless You!