More on assurance of salvation or "eternal security"
As stated before space ran out in the last post; Romans 8:16 shows the communication between our spirit and His Spirit who resides within all true believers ( John 14:23; see also Eph. 3:17). For Him to RESIDE in our souls we must be born again.
And being children of God we also are made aware of opportunities which God gives us (i.e. "good works") that will be rewarded in heaven someday that are imperishable ( 1 Cor. 9:25; Matt. 6:19-21). Keep in mind the end of that passage stating that wherever your treasure is; your heart is also (loosely translated).
Again; as I have stated a LOT on this site; God's method is to chastise all those He loves (let the reader find the scriptures). There is no desire for this in the flesh; as it is stated in Hebrews 12:11 to be disciplined in this way. We learn to recognize and appreciate this "pruning" effort ( John 15:2); for without it we would be in danger of producing no fruit and in the end being burned (in everlasting punishment). Our confidence is that in the end we are made into a glorious image; and reflect perfectly His radiance as He truly IS our life. Our reward; therefore comes from Him and in reality is HIS reward. He will; of course have His saints rule and reign with Him as part of our inheritance.
Another point to be made is an effectual witness has to be bold in their testimony and bring the fear of the Lord as well as demonstrate His love. It is therefore as Philippians 1:28 states a "token of their perdition" that we remain steadfast in the confidence of all that He has promised us. Our coming exaltation to rule and reign with Christ isn't brought forth by arrogance on our part; but nonetheless the unnerving thing to those who hear our witness is that we are; indeed already seated in heavenly places. ( Eph. 2:6). Christ also overcame and is seated at the right hand of the Father. God will be magnified whether hell or heaven is our end.
Hello Momsage. The 'Once saved Always saved' belief isn't something created, rather found in the God's Word. You have recently alluded to the Work of the Holy Spirit in the translation of the Scriptures (particularly the KJB). And so too, the Work of the Holy Spirit must be commenced, continued, & completed in the life of a person now IN Christ. If this isn't so, then the one claiming & believing to be a Christian is misinformed or deluded.
Your statement that "If a person lives a life of a true believer then they are saved. If a person lives a life of sin then they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved", is true but simplistic. What it is lacking, is God's Work of salvation, of placing the seal of His Spirit in us, of securing, of adoption, of power, of correction even death. It might be one thing when we can observe a person who shows all the marks of a faithful Christian & we believe & accept that person as part of God's family. But it becomes quite another thing to know what the unseen life of the person actually is and how faithful he will be under temptation, persecution, or death. We may not know the person's state, but God knows & I believe, the 'Christian' himself will know.
The other aspect of this errant belief is that a Christian can be saved, yet step in and out of the faith, at will. Can we ever assume that God can be played with, with His Holy Spirit popping in & out of a person according to one's estrangement from the Lord & subsequent repentance? I don't see this happening anywhere in Scripture, rather that we remain very diligent in the salvation given us ( Philippians 2:12), not for fear of losing it, but to avoid the correction & discipline of the Lord ( Hebrews 12:5-11) when we sin; or even having to lose our lives if correction goes unheeded so that our spirits might yet be saved ( 1 Corinthians 5:1-5).
The Lord's Work is always gracious towards His children - He knows those who are His - He won't let us go.
Speaking on'Gentiles and the Olive Tree',you'highighted the unity and interdependence of both groups within God's redemptive plan', and"The natural branches(Israel)were broken off due to unbelief, and wild olive shoots(Gentiles)were grafted in'.
The Word of GOD shows us the existence of two Olive Trees and Two Candlesticks:The two olive trees(source of oil -the OTand NT-, two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of THEMSELVES- Zechariah 4:11-14),and the two candlesticks(two Churches:the Gentile Church,and the Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:22-24)are standing before the God of the earth(the person of the Holy Spirit).
Many Jews attended the Church in Rome,there were dissensions among them,so Paul wrote:Ro.2:1-11:
1Therefore thou art inexcusable,O man,whosoever thou art that judgest:for wherein thou judgest another,thou condemnest thyself;for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of GOD is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this,O man,that judgest them which do such things,and doest the same,that thou shalt escape the Judgment of GOD?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;not knowing that the goodness of GOD leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the Day of WRATH and REVELATION of the righteous Judgment of GOD;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,ETERNAL LIFE:
8But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the Truth,but obey unrighteousness,INDIGNATION AND WRATH,
9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH,upon every soul of man that doeth evil,of the JEW first,and also of the GENTILE;
10But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the JEW first,and also to the GENTILE:
Perfect, you are right. The Holy Spirit is a Person, the Paraclete, the Comfort - John 15:26 and John 16:12-15 - not a force (a ghost) or power from God. JESUS revealed (through His angel, and John testified) that the person of the Holy Spirit is the God of the earth- Revelation 11:4 combined with Zechariah 4:11-14.
The two olive trees(source of oil -the OT and NT, two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of THEMSELVES- Zechariah 4:11-14) , and the two candlesticks(two Churches: the Gentile Church and the Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:22-24) are standing before the God of the earth-the person of the Holy Spirit.
1John 5:7 - There are three that bear record (testify) in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8), the Father(GOD Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit (who is a Person, not a ghost as is written in English language due to translators' carelessness): and these three are One. (Great mystery. Would not he be the younger brother of JESUS- Luke 15:30-32 combined with prophecy of Isaiah 7:15-16. Take a look. Great mystery.)
Thanks, there is nothing more important than who we have placed our faith.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
More on sincere and insincere prayers based on the persistent widow in Luke 8
The THIRD way we can approach the Lord is ostensively request something known to be part of God's will from scripture; or at least neutral and thus within the confines of a penitent heart to ask of the Lord to grant. I will go with the premise on this site that anyone who has embarked to read even a fraction of my loquacious posts is in that category. (Also they probably have sought patience from above to sift through all this material which probably dominates this site from time to time).
As to this type of prayer; I could exit this post if God always gave a clear answer to such prayers; at least immediately. I will gladly surrender my posts once He returns as all things will be established; and we shall see God. (Probably have to leave my laptop behind at the Rapture anyway).
HOW God typically answers as to His timing and methodology as I seem to say all too often I have posted already. Knowing me I'll have something more to say on it anyway...but for here I thought it prudent to examine more closely our initial approach so that we don't as Shakespeare stated evoke "sound and fury signifying nothing" (I think from MacBeth).
I won't pretend it is easy to see verses like Hebrews 12:17 where Esau saught carefully with tears and could NOT obtain the blessing. It seems he was destined to be lost; but this verse is specifically in regard to the family blessing or lineage; perhaps it could be related to our spiritual REWARDS which we can't receive short of true service through obedience as that is better than sacrifice. ( 1 Samuel 15:22). God has His means to all acts of consecration and perhaps reminds us of John 10:1 on those trying to get into the sheepfold by a different way and the fact that they are a thief and robber. These still seem to suggest known transgressions or a bad soul condition; so I will turn once again to what seems genuine in my next post.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord JESUS shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels, (for example, Michael. Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Revelation 12)
8 In FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD( Matthew 11:27), and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be PUNISHED with everlasting destruction( Revelation 11:18) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His Power( Matthew 28:18);
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in this day. (The last Day, the seventh and last Day-this Day just arrived-, or seventh and last millennium)
1John 2:28 - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Isaiah 33:10-14
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off(Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(Jewish people), acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -> Hebrews 12:29- For our GOD is a consuming fire.
The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
Romans 8:16 says: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"
Hebrews 12:6 states: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Matthew 5:44-46 says
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
These verses bring a clear understanding of those who are His children and possess His Spirit from those who don't. We can't love our enemies in our own strength in the same way we can in Him; but perhaps the other side of the argument should be examined; we cannot hate our sin; our former "good deeds" and appreciate the verse in Jeremiah 17:9 about our hearts being "deceitfully wicked" apart from a revelation from God through His Spirit. This truth results in a response of repentance whose origin comes from God; and results in actions coming from a new heart or nature; rather than just outer actions in some attempt to be righteous in our own strength. Atheists can often be more "moral" than we are in charitable giving; for example but they cannot without self righteousness. Thus; no amount of penance; fasting; etc. can save us. Jesus begins the work and to those He has called and chosen He insures that they are sanctified and glorified after being saved as we see from Romans 8:30.
Other Gospel verses show that His sheep hear His voice. We have true love for other believers if we are saved as well as a true love for Christ and we trust Him as well and have Him not just as Savior but Lord and Master as well.
The enemy will often convince us otherwise but believers have overcome the world.
Thanks for your consideration of my reply MotherMac. At least we are referring to the same passage in Hebrews. You wrote that you saw in Hebrews 12:1 a reference to both 'a carnal & divine view of Christ'. I re-looked at the verse & still unable to fit such views of Christ in there.
If you wish, could you expand your thoughts a little on your statement, so we might consider the verse in a different way? There is always the danger of going too far by searching for a deeper or hidden meaning, making the verse say something not intended; and to this we must be careful or else we do great disservice to God's Word, to our own understanding of it, & misdirecting others. So I would be very keen to hear your thoughts on this so that I can try to search for something that you're reading or sensing in there. Thank you.
Hello MotherMac. I'm unsure whether you're addressing someone specifically here, or who the "two (?) clouds of witnesses' might be you're referring to, but just to throw an answer in here: the 'great cloud of witnesses' (as referred to in Hebrews 12:1), are those faithful witnesses mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11.
So when I read Hebrews 12:1, I always get the sense that since those who have gone on way before us & stand in the Presence of God, their lives & faithfulness, in spite of many odds against them, should also be an impetus for us to 'run the race of Christian living & testimony'; a race, not who gets there first, but one that requires patience & endurance reaching the finishing line & the prize - just as those of old did.
But the Hebrews writer doesn't want us to only focus on those saints of old, but to look to Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our Faith (the One Who completed and perfected our faith before God): for He alone is the reason for our salvation, our power & joy to live this life, & Who will receive us into Glory at the appointed time. That 'cloud of witnesses' might have had a good testimony for us to be encouraged to do likewise, but only Jesus could author saving faith & perfect it & us before God by virtue of His great Sacrifice for us & the supreme example He set before us in godly living.
The second and third lines in Chris Tomlin's song "Good Good Father" state:
But I've heard the tender whisper of love in the dead of night
And You tell me that You're pleased and that I'm never alone
David Crowder's song "He really loves us" has this in the third line
"There is no judgment"
And Danny Gokey's song "Love God Love People" says at the end of the fourth stanza
"Love God and love People" (no brainer).
Finally there is the song "What would Jesus do" states in the 11th Stanza
"What would Jesus do
He would love first..etc."
The first question here is what is God's love? There is nothing in any of these songs that show any differentiation of God's love from that of man. Assuming that God never has anything negative to say goes against the verses that state God chastises anone He loves and we are illegitimate sons otherwise (see Hebrews 12:6; 12:8). To say there is no judgment is only true as to a believer's standing at the Bema Seat Judgment and missing the Great White Throne condemnation. We are judged according to 2 Corinthians 5:10 and be judged as to works done for Him; good or bad. If we aren't one of His own we are judged and condemned already ( John 3:18).
No one should argue as to a Christian demonstrating love and patience; but that doesn't mean that we should stand for hypocrisy within the House of God; or societal evils such as abortion without sounding the trumpet as a watchman to avoid the condemnation warned of in Ezekiel 3:18. But such exhortations seem to be missing entirely in today's Christian songs; whether it is warning of the deceptiveness of Satan or sin itself; or the Tribulation to come or hell itself without repentance. Anyone on this forum who wishes to rebut that statement let me know; perhaps there are some independent artists I should be made aware of that I haven't heard lately.
Thus; artists are idolized saying what people want to hear and are "Christian" by name only.
God's apparent contradictions: Examining Psalm 107 compared to Proverbs 1:26-28 and like passages
We see in the first example God's patience when people were about to head to destruction; either physical or spiritual death or both how throughout several earlier Biblical events God's people were delivered and rescued when at wits end and they called upon His name. The second passage and others such as we find in Jeremiah and Micah to name just two show where God will not hear; and in the case of this section of Proverbs mocks them in their calamity.
One can generalize of how God chastises all those He loves such as we see in Proverbs 3:12 (just a couple chapters later) and Hebrews 12:6. These techniques were primarily for the nation of Israel in the Old Testament and His church today. Exceptions exist; however such as those who offered profane fire before the Lord in Numbers 16 who deliberately rebelled against God's chosen prophet (Moses) and suffered immediate judgment. Moses surely wasn't the only one either who was saved but couldn't enter the Promised Land (only Caleb and Joshua could from the original generation along with their children).
In the case of Pagan nations; such as in Psalm 2 and examples of wholesale slaughter in the Old Testament of the nations around Israel were a result of their vile abominations; with child sacrifice being a top thing causing wrath no doubt. Psalm 2 is a parallel to Revelation 19 where those having taken the Mark of the Beast are led by the 3 frog like spirits coming out of Satan's evil "trinity" to be led to Armageddon to fight Christ (although there may be some trickery at first to convince them that they are fighting the last battle for control over the earth by destroying the armies coming against Antichrist.)
This gives us assurance that those who are His elect will be saved; even if chastisement shortens their earthly existence ( 1 Cor. 11:30). This is the difference between those He hears or not.
Hebrews 12:7, "17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
It says " though he sought IT carefully with tears" What do you think that "IT" is refering to?
Question. If one repents is there any case God rejects them? Answer. No, God always forgives Actually this is what God wants us to do when we sin. Next question. If we want to repent and seek to do it, is there any case that God rejects us? Is there any case that we want and have decided in our minds to repent and still not being able to repent? Really our heart is not that easy to come to repentance some times but when I have decided that in my mind then God forgives me at that very moment. Actually God will always gives us His grace to overcome our stony heart when we have decided to condemn our actions. So next question. Why was Esau rejected although he seeked with tears to find forgiveness? Well because simply he didn't ask for forgiveness. That "IT" is refering to the " inheritance" not to forgiveness or repentance. So the verse in simple words reads as " Esau was rejected by God when he wanted to get the inheritance because he didn't repent, although he wanted to get the inheritance very much(with tears)". So don't worry. When God sees that we condemn in our mind something we did, He always runs to our help and ease us to repent, if we have problem doing it, and He gives us His grace because He wants to get us to very end, the kingdom of Heaven. Also in NT there are no consequences like with David in the OT, when we sin and repent. It is like we have never done anything, God forgets it and He never punishes, no way.. GBU
I agree Momsage, there is no clear instruction or evidence of departed souls in Heaven looking down upon us. I feel that this belief developed from certain passages, such as Matthew 18:10 (angelic activity & witness on behalf of children); 1 Peter 1:10-12 (angelic interest in the workings of the Gospel & people's response to it); and Hebrews 12:1 (the cloud of witnesses: are they actually witnessing/observing our lives on Earth, or is the message for us, 'to lay aside sin & run the race with patience, since we have those who have done so before us which should be our example, or witness to us?). So, if there is angelic observance, some might be inclined, even for comfort sake, also believe that departed souls also have similar opportunity, interest & power to do so. This is probably a belief best left aside for the Word is not specific on it & should not be taught as fact. And I've always thought, that if souls are in the presence of the Lord, would there even be any desire to cast the 'mind' or 'eyes' anywhere else, rather than behold the Glory & Beauty of God in continual worship of Him?
Re.11:4 - These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Whatsoever is more than these or is added comes of evil).
The two olive trees
are to produce oil for the two candlesticks.
They are the Old and the New Testaments-i.e. the Word of GOD-, the Word is GOD, understand? John 1:1
The two candlesticks
are two Churches: The Jewish Church - Hebrews 12:23; and Gentile Church: John 10:16
For example: Revelation 1:20 - ... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches (of Asia).
Who will be in the scenary from now on or in this end of the time is Michael, a prince of the LORD sent by JESUS as the God of the earth (as Moses was sent as the God of Pharaoh), he appeared to John in the midst of the seven candlesticks as one like unto the Son of man. Now he will be in the midst of the two Churches -TWO CANDLESTICKS as above cited- and to the TWO OLIVE TREES above cited WILL BE(IS)given Power to shut heaven that it rain not in these days of THEIR prophecy: and have Power over waters (OVER PEOPLES, AND NATIONS, AND MULTITUDES OF ALL TONGUES-FOR HE THAT IS ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL- John 3:31-36) to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not MOSES and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way they (the church) call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers; believing ALL THINGS written in the LAW and the PROPHETS.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came many unto him in his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM of GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses,and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Most don't believe ALL THINGS written in MOSES and the PROPHETS.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this honoru hath all his saints.
Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgements (administered by the saints) are in the earth (second resurrection), the world WILL LEARN righteousness.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world SHALL REMEMBER (when they are resurrected and judged by the saints) AND TURN (repent) unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Isaiah 66:24 And they (the saints) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their (the saints) WORM shall not die; neither shall their (the saints') FIRE be quenched, and they (the saints) shall be and abhorring to all flesh.
Job 25:6 And much less man, that is a worm?and the son or man WHICH IS A WORM.
Psalms 22:6 .... But I am a worm .....
Mark 9:46 Where their WORM dieth not, nor is the FIRE quenched.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 13:34 ... and without a parable he spake he not unto them......
The whole word of God is Christ speaking.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will open my DARK SAYINGS of the harps (his people)
Hello Bmccaugh58. The answers to your questions are actually found throughout the Bible (from Genesis to Revelation), because the Bible essentially shows us how far mankind has fallen away from his Creator (because of sin), the repercussions we face from living in such a sinful state, & what God has done to offer correction & help, or else, judgement. So, one merely has to read through the Bible (even in your daily devotions/readings) & will see how people, yes all of us, have done wrong towards God & man & what subsequently entails from that. Some will learn & be corrected & then restored - others will persist in their evil ways & face God's Judgement.
So, here are some passages to start you off, but in your reading of the Bible, God's Spirit will alert you to what you seek or even where some action needs to be taken in your own life.
These are just a very few Scriptures, reminding us that there will always be consequences for our actions, not just in our dealings with each other, but more importantly, as we stand before God. But this God of Love always gives sinful wayward man an escape route, from a life of sin to a life of holiness & love - and His Name is Jesus.
You are right, the old (wine bottle) has passed away, and YOU ARE the NEW (bottles of heaven).
Job 38:37 Who can number the CLOUDS (of heaven) .... Mark 14:62 ..... Hebrews 12:1 ...... IN WISDOM? or who can stay the bottles of heaven.
You DIED with Christ, but only Christ arose, YOU were a JOINT HEIR with Christ in the Kingdom of God, Christ is the kingdom of God.
You DIED, only Christ is alive and YOU are the Body of that LIFE, as Christ is the BODY of the LIFE of his Father.
You said you want to lead a LIFE of OBEDIENCE, You DIED, ONLY Christ exist, he is the LIFE, and you the Body, He CAUSES you to do his WILL, Christ, The Body, walks in total obedience to his Father's Life (Spirit); therefore, if and when you come to TRUTH, you walk in total obedience.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH), doth not commit sin; for HIS SEED (Christ) remains IN HIM, and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH with Christ).
You obey and honour God when you BELIEVE his words.
No discipline is enjoyable at the time according to Hebrews 12:11. It leads to good fruits according to the passage; however.
I have stated repeatedly that verses indicating chastising all He loves as well as suffering for His Name's sake are both scriptural statements in regard to the fate of those who are saved. (see Philippians 1:29 and dozens of other verses). So in some sense we have died with Christ but are being crucified daily. WE are the ones where there has to be progressive sanctification; Christ Himself only died once for the propitiation of our sins; in other words He didn't need being perfect the process of sanctification before glorification.
Just as the conversion of a serial killer may appear more dramatic than say a stay at home housewife; the sanctification may also appear so. We see Christ tell Paul how much he will have to suffer for His Name's sake ( Acts 9:16). God has His own unique calling on our lives therefore different things necessary in our sanctification process. Nonetheless; changes must occur.
Once we die or are raptured and called home in glory then of course the process is completed; and the rewards commensurate with our service or lack thereof. This means we should strive to win the prize; but that is involved with a combination of learning how to submit daily to the Lord as well as buffeting ourselves with self discipline; someone He can trust to honor His name; and a servant who obeys because of love for their Master; Lord and Savior.
Sanctification therefore means various things; changing our daily habits and routines; changing the focus of our career and recreational time; and for some means a change of venue; or vocation. It is the small things that add up to make one prepared for the big; the lives of Christ and the Apostles show how they faced martyrdom after daily dying to self. Paul had suffered greatly and preferred to be with the Lord but not before the time ( Phil. 1:23)
Jema, I'm so glad with your kind reply, thank you brother/sister(?), your nickname doesn't reveal it).
However, I think I was misunderstood face my defense of the accusations saying I feel myself superior, and I bellit GOD's people by heavy and not soft Judgments, as many examples of Judgment recorded in the Word of GOD. In fact, the Word is GOD and Judges us, He weigheth the spirits in the balances- Proverbs 16:2 & Daniel 5:27.
By the way, "Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the Truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part"- 1Corinthians 13:4-9).
In the other hand, what does the Word of GOD say? Hebrews 12:3-4&6-9
3 Consider Him that endured contradictions of sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, GOD dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
You say"the third heaven is the dwelling of God'',but what does the Word of GOD say? Ps.148:4-Praise GOD,ye heavens of heavens(highest heavens),and ye waters that be above the heavens(peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues; so,those which will be above the heavens are them which will be caught up out of the FIRE and be placed in the 3rd Heaven,for the 1st and 2nd heavens will be DISSOLVED- 2Peter 3:12-13,as follow:
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the LORD's Day),wherein the HEAVENS(the 1st and 2nd heavens-THE CELESTIAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS)being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED,and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?How?Yes, how?It is revealed and explained in Isaiah 33:10-14 combined with Hebrews 12:29 and 10:27.Take a look.
13Nevertheless we,according to GOD's promise,look for New Heavens(the next is the 3rd heaven- Luke 20:35-36.Take a look) and a new earth(new Israel),wherein dwels righteousness.
As you know,the Word is GOD,self-executing. Romans 9:28-31:
-->28For GOD WILL FINISH the work(the finish of GOD's work is from now on according to the WRATH OF GOD described in Revelation 11:15-18),and He shall cut it short in RIGHTEOUSNESS: because a SHORT WORK will the Lord make upon the earth(even now, from now on, in the last week divided in two halfs of severe and terrible chastisements),as JESUS warned in Matthew 24:22,saying:"Except those days should be SHORTENED,there should no flesh be saved:but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED
Verse 29-And as Esaias said before,Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,we had been as Sodoma(as is written in Luke 17:29-30),and been made like unto Gomorrha
30What shall we say then?That the Gentiles,which followed not after righteousness,have attained to righteousness,even the righteousness which is of faith
31But Israel,which followed after the Law of righteousness,has not attained to the law of righteousness
Revelation is very symbolic, but it is also the GOSPEL, the revealing of Jesus Christ.
Until the spirit causes you to SEE and UNDERSTAND that the Word of God is talking to the person reading it, and that person reading those words Is the most likely the SYMBOL your reading about, you will stay in darkness.
Revelation is addressing the church, but that church is not the RCC or the Baptist, of any other denomination church.
Your the CHURCH, and WE are riding the beast with the name WHORE written in our head.
We blaspheme HIS NAME every day by not believing what he SAYS.
You were BAPTISED by his resurrection INTO HIS NAME.
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no TEMPLE (church) therein, because the Lord God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE (CHURCH) thereof.
2 Corinthians 6:16 .....for ye are TEMPLE of the LIVING GOD ....
You and Christ BECAME ONE: BY HIS RESURRECTION.
A beast has NO KNOWLEDGE of God; we ride the beast, until: We are BORN AGAIN by the words (truth and knowledge) of God.
Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns (the power of God, given to you by the truth and knowledge of God)) that thou sawest on the beast, THESE (the NEW CREATION) shall HATE the WHORE, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall ear her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Hebrews 12:29 Our God is a consuming fire ..... you WERE made ONE with Christ .... you are in, and have become the lake of fire.
Hebrews 1:7 ...and maketh his ministers A FLAME of FIRE .....
Isaiah 9:20 .... and shall EVERY MAN eat the FLESH of his own right arm ....
Correct once your born into this world your body should automatically become like God and once your receive Jesus Christ into your heart in repentance your body becomes God at that instant.
And if it's already Done it shouldn't suffer either. Pray after me Jesus you says that it is done and I ask that I will not suffer in flesh for his sake.
There is a definition that's given to us here. It says we are in the flesh if we don't have Christ. If we are not "born again" we have an illegitimate claim at being a true believer.
Whereas, those who are born again do belong to Christ & has been gather unto the Gardener.
Yet those who are in the work of sanctification of the Spirit.
They are true believers too, & belong to Christ, having received of God the gift of faith, from hearing the Word of God in their hearts to the working out of their salvation,& by that gift of faith, they receive ever increasing measures of His Spirit Gal 3:2
Hebrews 12:1 wherefore lay aside the sin that doth so easily beset us. They believe & are in the work of regeneration.
Hebrews 12:4,5,6,7,8 Holy Spirit calls them His children & He's their Father, they belong to Him
Hebrews 12:9-11 afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby, & why? Because they have become partakers of His holiness, the Divine Nature
So in the cleansing work of making holy, their growing from faith to faith & from glory to glory being brought to the baptismal of the Holy Spirit to be dead unto sin, born again of the incorruptible Seed.
Friend,
The path is straight & the gate is narrow indeed that leads to life & few there be that find it, for some then, its to narrow for them to enter. Yet our Leader has plainly mark the path for us, He takes us by the hand & leads us in the very same path that He Himself walked in, wherein He received of the Father all His glory, & so shall we, for all that would believe all things are possible. Isa 42:16 the just Rom 1:17
Its not from the studying of the letter, as one would for any other endeavor, by the art of human science, but a total resolution of one spirit to empty oneself & be guided & taught of God's Spirit John 1:9Titus 2:11 within one's own conscience. The Immanuel of God, who is within us.
Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29
who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.
True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3Psalms 24:3,4Matt 5:8
If we are experiencing tribulations as define:
properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.
we're experiencing Psalms 89:14
Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross
Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.
I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.
Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus
Lev 26:15-21 God is speaking to His people, the history of the children of Israel full of this. 2 Chronicles 7:14Jeremiah 3:22Hosea 6:1,2
Christ brings this into the NT John 12:40Acts 28:27
Hebrews 12:5-11 speaking of His children
He does this in His merciful lovingkindness to us, we being so blinded by the deceitfulness of sin, it must be scourge out, define as "to flog" lit or fig, God as a father chastising and training men as children by affliction,
Chastisement; Education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction, chastening, instruction, nurture.
There's two kinds of fear, & many manifestations of each, all grounded in one of the two, godly fear which foundation is grounded in obedient reverential love for God.
The other, Satan counter part, grounded in disobedience which brings torment, where condemnation & guilt in one's own heart follows them wherever they go, for they have offended the Holy God; they having continue in disobedience to the Grace of God which appears in their hearts.
God's love in chastising correction, cast this fear & torment out
& why? John 14:21, which defines love, which makes way for John 14:23 one's habitation becomes a dwelling place for Perfect Love in the work of Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus.
thus "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 exercising the Grace of God, the Word of Righteousness in discerning between Good & evil,, there's suffering in the Cross to learn righteousness. 1Pet 4:1
Then we have Job, who God said is perfect, Job 2:3; which trials, suffering & afflictions is of a much higher concept than punishment for disobedience, James 5:11
Hebrews 11:33 for this purpose "obtain a better resurrection"
one eighty, you would do well to live out your call name.
your in darkness, deceived; dwelling, speaking & judging falsely against God
As stated before space ran out in the last post; Romans 8:16 shows the communication between our spirit and His Spirit who resides within all true believers ( John 14:23; see also Eph. 3:17). For Him to RESIDE in our souls we must be born again.
And being children of God we also are made aware of opportunities which God gives us (i.e. "good works") that will be rewarded in heaven someday that are imperishable ( 1 Cor. 9:25; Matt. 6:19-21). Keep in mind the end of that passage stating that wherever your treasure is; your heart is also (loosely translated).
Again; as I have stated a LOT on this site; God's method is to chastise all those He loves (let the reader find the scriptures). There is no desire for this in the flesh; as it is stated in Hebrews 12:11 to be disciplined in this way. We learn to recognize and appreciate this "pruning" effort ( John 15:2); for without it we would be in danger of producing no fruit and in the end being burned (in everlasting punishment). Our confidence is that in the end we are made into a glorious image; and reflect perfectly His radiance as He truly IS our life. Our reward; therefore comes from Him and in reality is HIS reward. He will; of course have His saints rule and reign with Him as part of our inheritance.
Another point to be made is an effectual witness has to be bold in their testimony and bring the fear of the Lord as well as demonstrate His love. It is therefore as Philippians 1:28 states a "token of their perdition" that we remain steadfast in the confidence of all that He has promised us. Our coming exaltation to rule and reign with Christ isn't brought forth by arrogance on our part; but nonetheless the unnerving thing to those who hear our witness is that we are; indeed already seated in heavenly places. ( Eph. 2:6). Christ also overcame and is seated at the right hand of the Father. God will be magnified whether hell or heaven is our end.
Your statement that "If a person lives a life of a true believer then they are saved. If a person lives a life of sin then they need to repent and accept Christ as their Savior in order to be saved", is true but simplistic. What it is lacking, is God's Work of salvation, of placing the seal of His Spirit in us, of securing, of adoption, of power, of correction even death. It might be one thing when we can observe a person who shows all the marks of a faithful Christian & we believe & accept that person as part of God's family. But it becomes quite another thing to know what the unseen life of the person actually is and how faithful he will be under temptation, persecution, or death. We may not know the person's state, but God knows & I believe, the 'Christian' himself will know.
The other aspect of this errant belief is that a Christian can be saved, yet step in and out of the faith, at will. Can we ever assume that God can be played with, with His Holy Spirit popping in & out of a person according to one's estrangement from the Lord & subsequent repentance? I don't see this happening anywhere in Scripture, rather that we remain very diligent in the salvation given us ( Philippians 2:12), not for fear of losing it, but to avoid the correction & discipline of the Lord ( Hebrews 12:5-11) when we sin; or even having to lose our lives if correction goes unheeded so that our spirits might yet be saved ( 1 Corinthians 5:1-5).
The Lord's Work is always gracious towards His children - He knows those who are His - He won't let us go.
Speaking on'Gentiles and the Olive Tree',you'highighted the unity and interdependence of both groups within God's redemptive plan', and"The natural branches(Israel)were broken off due to unbelief, and wild olive shoots(Gentiles)were grafted in'.
The Word of GOD shows us the existence of two Olive Trees and Two Candlesticks:The two olive trees(source of oil -the OTand NT-, two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of THEMSELVES- Zechariah 4:11-14),and the two candlesticks(two Churches:the Gentile Church,and the Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:22-24)are standing before the God of the earth(the person of the Holy Spirit).
Many Jews attended the Church in Rome,there were dissensions among them,so Paul wrote:Ro.2:1-11:
1Therefore thou art inexcusable,O man,whosoever thou art that judgest:for wherein thou judgest another,thou condemnest thyself;for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of GOD is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this,O man,that judgest them which do such things,and doest the same,that thou shalt escape the Judgment of GOD?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;not knowing that the goodness of GOD leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the Day of WRATH and REVELATION of the righteous Judgment of GOD;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,ETERNAL LIFE:
8But unto them that are contentious,and do not obey the Truth,but obey unrighteousness,INDIGNATION AND WRATH,
9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH,upon every soul of man that doeth evil,of the JEW first,and also of the GENTILE;
10But glory,honour,and peace,to every man that worketh good,to the JEW first,and also to the GENTILE:
11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
The two olive trees(source of oil -the OT and NT, two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of THEMSELVES- Zechariah 4:11-14) , and the two candlesticks(two Churches: the Gentile Church and the Jewish Church- Hebrews 12:22-24) are standing before the God of the earth-the person of the Holy Spirit.
1John 5:7 - There are three that bear record (testify) in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8), the Father(GOD Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit (who is a Person, not a ghost as is written in English language due to translators' carelessness): and these three are One. (Great mystery. Would not he be the younger brother of JESUS- Luke 15:30-32 combined with prophecy of Isaiah 7:15-16. Take a look. Great mystery.)
Thanks, there is nothing more important than who we have placed our faith.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
God bless,
RLW
The THIRD way we can approach the Lord is ostensively request something known to be part of God's will from scripture; or at least neutral and thus within the confines of a penitent heart to ask of the Lord to grant. I will go with the premise on this site that anyone who has embarked to read even a fraction of my loquacious posts is in that category. (Also they probably have sought patience from above to sift through all this material which probably dominates this site from time to time).
As to this type of prayer; I could exit this post if God always gave a clear answer to such prayers; at least immediately. I will gladly surrender my posts once He returns as all things will be established; and we shall see God. (Probably have to leave my laptop behind at the Rapture anyway).
HOW God typically answers as to His timing and methodology as I seem to say all too often I have posted already. Knowing me I'll have something more to say on it anyway...but for here I thought it prudent to examine more closely our initial approach so that we don't as Shakespeare stated evoke "sound and fury signifying nothing" (I think from MacBeth).
I won't pretend it is easy to see verses like Hebrews 12:17 where Esau saught carefully with tears and could NOT obtain the blessing. It seems he was destined to be lost; but this verse is specifically in regard to the family blessing or lineage; perhaps it could be related to our spiritual REWARDS which we can't receive short of true service through obedience as that is better than sacrifice. ( 1 Samuel 15:22). God has His means to all acts of consecration and perhaps reminds us of John 10:1 on those trying to get into the sheepfold by a different way and the fact that they are a thief and robber. These still seem to suggest known transgressions or a bad soul condition; so I will turn once again to what seems genuine in my next post.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord JESUS shall be REVEALED from heaven with His mighty angels, (for example, Michael. Daniel 12:1-3 combined with Revelation 12)
8 In FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not GOD( Matthew 11:27), and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be PUNISHED with everlasting destruction( Revelation 11:18) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His Power( Matthew 28:18);
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in this day. (The last Day, the seventh and last Day-this Day just arrived-, or seventh and last millennium)
1John 2:28 - And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Isaiah 33:10-14
10 Now will I rise, saith the Lord; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.
13 Hear, ye that are far off(Gentile peoples), what I have done; and, ye that are near(Jewish people), acknowledge my might.
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -> Hebrews 12:29- For our GOD is a consuming fire.
The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
Hebrews 12:6 states: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Matthew 5:44-46 says
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
These verses bring a clear understanding of those who are His children and possess His Spirit from those who don't. We can't love our enemies in our own strength in the same way we can in Him; but perhaps the other side of the argument should be examined; we cannot hate our sin; our former "good deeds" and appreciate the verse in Jeremiah 17:9 about our hearts being "deceitfully wicked" apart from a revelation from God through His Spirit. This truth results in a response of repentance whose origin comes from God; and results in actions coming from a new heart or nature; rather than just outer actions in some attempt to be righteous in our own strength. Atheists can often be more "moral" than we are in charitable giving; for example but they cannot without self righteousness. Thus; no amount of penance; fasting; etc. can save us. Jesus begins the work and to those He has called and chosen He insures that they are sanctified and glorified after being saved as we see from Romans 8:30.
Other Gospel verses show that His sheep hear His voice. We have true love for other believers if we are saved as well as a true love for Christ and we trust Him as well and have Him not just as Savior but Lord and Master as well.
The enemy will often convince us otherwise but believers have overcome the world.
If you wish, could you expand your thoughts a little on your statement, so we might consider the verse in a different way? There is always the danger of going too far by searching for a deeper or hidden meaning, making the verse say something not intended; and to this we must be careful or else we do great disservice to God's Word, to our own understanding of it, & misdirecting others. So I would be very keen to hear your thoughts on this so that I can try to search for something that you're reading or sensing in there. Thank you.
So when I read Hebrews 12:1, I always get the sense that since those who have gone on way before us & stand in the Presence of God, their lives & faithfulness, in spite of many odds against them, should also be an impetus for us to 'run the race of Christian living & testimony'; a race, not who gets there first, but one that requires patience & endurance reaching the finishing line & the prize - just as those of old did.
But the Hebrews writer doesn't want us to only focus on those saints of old, but to look to Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our Faith (the One Who completed and perfected our faith before God): for He alone is the reason for our salvation, our power & joy to live this life, & Who will receive us into Glory at the appointed time. That 'cloud of witnesses' might have had a good testimony for us to be encouraged to do likewise, but only Jesus could author saving faith & perfect it & us before God by virtue of His great Sacrifice for us & the supreme example He set before us in godly living.
The second and third lines in Chris Tomlin's song "Good Good Father" state:
But I've heard the tender whisper of love in the dead of night
And You tell me that You're pleased and that I'm never alone
David Crowder's song "He really loves us" has this in the third line
"There is no judgment"
And Danny Gokey's song "Love God Love People" says at the end of the fourth stanza
"Love God and love People" (no brainer).
Finally there is the song "What would Jesus do" states in the 11th Stanza
"What would Jesus do
He would love first..etc."
The first question here is what is God's love? There is nothing in any of these songs that show any differentiation of God's love from that of man. Assuming that God never has anything negative to say goes against the verses that state God chastises anone He loves and we are illegitimate sons otherwise (see Hebrews 12:6; 12:8). To say there is no judgment is only true as to a believer's standing at the Bema Seat Judgment and missing the Great White Throne condemnation. We are judged according to 2 Corinthians 5:10 and be judged as to works done for Him; good or bad. If we aren't one of His own we are judged and condemned already ( John 3:18).
No one should argue as to a Christian demonstrating love and patience; but that doesn't mean that we should stand for hypocrisy within the House of God; or societal evils such as abortion without sounding the trumpet as a watchman to avoid the condemnation warned of in Ezekiel 3:18. But such exhortations seem to be missing entirely in today's Christian songs; whether it is warning of the deceptiveness of Satan or sin itself; or the Tribulation to come or hell itself without repentance. Anyone on this forum who wishes to rebut that statement let me know; perhaps there are some independent artists I should be made aware of that I haven't heard lately.
Thus; artists are idolized saying what people want to hear and are "Christian" by name only.
We see in the first example God's patience when people were about to head to destruction; either physical or spiritual death or both how throughout several earlier Biblical events God's people were delivered and rescued when at wits end and they called upon His name. The second passage and others such as we find in Jeremiah and Micah to name just two show where God will not hear; and in the case of this section of Proverbs mocks them in their calamity.
One can generalize of how God chastises all those He loves such as we see in Proverbs 3:12 (just a couple chapters later) and Hebrews 12:6. These techniques were primarily for the nation of Israel in the Old Testament and His church today. Exceptions exist; however such as those who offered profane fire before the Lord in Numbers 16 who deliberately rebelled against God's chosen prophet (Moses) and suffered immediate judgment. Moses surely wasn't the only one either who was saved but couldn't enter the Promised Land (only Caleb and Joshua could from the original generation along with their children).
In the case of Pagan nations; such as in Psalm 2 and examples of wholesale slaughter in the Old Testament of the nations around Israel were a result of their vile abominations; with child sacrifice being a top thing causing wrath no doubt. Psalm 2 is a parallel to Revelation 19 where those having taken the Mark of the Beast are led by the 3 frog like spirits coming out of Satan's evil "trinity" to be led to Armageddon to fight Christ (although there may be some trickery at first to convince them that they are fighting the last battle for control over the earth by destroying the armies coming against Antichrist.)
This gives us assurance that those who are His elect will be saved; even if chastisement shortens their earthly existence ( 1 Cor. 11:30). This is the difference between those He hears or not.
Hebrews 12:7, "17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."
It says " though he sought IT carefully with tears" What do you think that "IT" is refering to?
Question. If one repents is there any case God rejects them? Answer. No, God always forgives Actually this is what God wants us to do when we sin. Next question. If we want to repent and seek to do it, is there any case that God rejects us? Is there any case that we want and have decided in our minds to repent and still not being able to repent? Really our heart is not that easy to come to repentance some times but when I have decided that in my mind then God forgives me at that very moment. Actually God will always gives us His grace to overcome our stony heart when we have decided to condemn our actions. So next question. Why was Esau rejected although he seeked with tears to find forgiveness? Well because simply he didn't ask for forgiveness. That "IT" is refering to the " inheritance" not to forgiveness or repentance. So the verse in simple words reads as " Esau was rejected by God when he wanted to get the inheritance because he didn't repent, although he wanted to get the inheritance very much(with tears)". So don't worry. When God sees that we condemn in our mind something we did, He always runs to our help and ease us to repent, if we have problem doing it, and He gives us His grace because He wants to get us to very end, the kingdom of Heaven. Also in NT there are no consequences like with David in the OT, when we sin and repent. It is like we have never done anything, God forgets it and He never punishes, no way.. GBU
What does the Word of GOD say?
Re.11:4 - These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Whatsoever is more than these or is added comes of evil).
The two olive trees
are to produce oil for the two candlesticks.
They are the Old and the New Testaments-i.e. the Word of GOD-, the Word is GOD, understand? John 1:1
The two candlesticks
are two Churches: The Jewish Church - Hebrews 12:23; and Gentile Church: John 10:16
For example: Revelation 1:20 - ... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches (of Asia).
Who will be in the scenary from now on or in this end of the time is Michael, a prince of the LORD sent by JESUS as the God of the earth (as Moses was sent as the God of Pharaoh), he appeared to John in the midst of the seven candlesticks as one like unto the Son of man. Now he will be in the midst of the two Churches -TWO CANDLESTICKS as above cited- and to the TWO OLIVE TREES above cited WILL BE(IS)given Power to shut heaven that it rain not in these days of THEIR prophecy: and have Power over waters (OVER PEOPLES, AND NATIONS, AND MULTITUDES OF ALL TONGUES-FOR HE THAT IS ABOVE IS ABOVE ALL- John 3:31-36) to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?
Be careful and get ready
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not MOSES and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way they (the church) call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers; believing ALL THINGS written in the LAW and the PROPHETS.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came many unto him in his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM of GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses,and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Most don't believe ALL THINGS written in MOSES and the PROPHETS.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this honoru hath all his saints.
Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgements (administered by the saints) are in the earth (second resurrection), the world WILL LEARN righteousness.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world SHALL REMEMBER (when they are resurrected and judged by the saints) AND TURN (repent) unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Isaiah 66:24 And they (the saints) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their (the saints) WORM shall not die; neither shall their (the saints') FIRE be quenched, and they (the saints) shall be and abhorring to all flesh.
Job 25:6 And much less man, that is a worm?and the son or man WHICH IS A WORM.
Psalms 22:6 .... But I am a worm .....
Mark 9:46 Where their WORM dieth not, nor is the FIRE quenched.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 13:34 ... and without a parable he spake he not unto them......
The whole word of God is Christ speaking.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will open my DARK SAYINGS of the harps (his people)
God Bless you
So, here are some passages to start you off, but in your reading of the Bible, God's Spirit will alert you to what you seek or even where some action needs to be taken in your own life.
For "Consequences", see: Genesis 2:15-17; Genesis 3:16-19; Deuteronomy 28:1,2,15; 1 Kings 11:9-11; Job 4:8,9; Isaiah 59:2; Jeremiah 17:9,10; Matthew 27:3-5; Romans 6:23; Romans 13:4; Galatians 6:7,8; 1 Timothy 5:8; James 2:10; Revelation 20:12-15.
For "Correction", see: Proverbs 22:6; Proverbs 29:15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Galatians 6:1; Ephesians 6:4; 2 Timothy 4:2; Hebrews 12:5-11; Revelation 3:19.
These are just a very few Scriptures, reminding us that there will always be consequences for our actions, not just in our dealings with each other, but more importantly, as we stand before God. But this God of Love always gives sinful wayward man an escape route, from a life of sin to a life of holiness & love - and His Name is Jesus.
Your getting closer to understanding.
You are right, the old (wine bottle) has passed away, and YOU ARE the NEW (bottles of heaven).
Job 38:37 Who can number the CLOUDS (of heaven) .... Mark 14:62 ..... Hebrews 12:1 ...... IN WISDOM? or who can stay the bottles of heaven.
You DIED with Christ, but only Christ arose, YOU were a JOINT HEIR with Christ in the Kingdom of God, Christ is the kingdom of God.
You DIED, only Christ is alive and YOU are the Body of that LIFE, as Christ is the BODY of the LIFE of his Father.
You said you want to lead a LIFE of OBEDIENCE, You DIED, ONLY Christ exist, he is the LIFE, and you the Body, He CAUSES you to do his WILL, Christ, The Body, walks in total obedience to his Father's Life (Spirit); therefore, if and when you come to TRUTH, you walk in total obedience.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH), doth not commit sin; for HIS SEED (Christ) remains IN HIM, and he CANNOT SIN, because he is BORN of God (resurrected as ONE FLESH with Christ).
You obey and honour God when you BELIEVE his words.
God Bless YOU!
No discipline is enjoyable at the time according to Hebrews 12:11. It leads to good fruits according to the passage; however.
I have stated repeatedly that verses indicating chastising all He loves as well as suffering for His Name's sake are both scriptural statements in regard to the fate of those who are saved. (see Philippians 1:29 and dozens of other verses). So in some sense we have died with Christ but are being crucified daily. WE are the ones where there has to be progressive sanctification; Christ Himself only died once for the propitiation of our sins; in other words He didn't need being perfect the process of sanctification before glorification.
Just as the conversion of a serial killer may appear more dramatic than say a stay at home housewife; the sanctification may also appear so. We see Christ tell Paul how much he will have to suffer for His Name's sake ( Acts 9:16). God has His own unique calling on our lives therefore different things necessary in our sanctification process. Nonetheless; changes must occur.
Once we die or are raptured and called home in glory then of course the process is completed; and the rewards commensurate with our service or lack thereof. This means we should strive to win the prize; but that is involved with a combination of learning how to submit daily to the Lord as well as buffeting ourselves with self discipline; someone He can trust to honor His name; and a servant who obeys because of love for their Master; Lord and Savior.
Sanctification therefore means various things; changing our daily habits and routines; changing the focus of our career and recreational time; and for some means a change of venue; or vocation. It is the small things that add up to make one prepared for the big; the lives of Christ and the Apostles show how they faced martyrdom after daily dying to self. Paul had suffered greatly and preferred to be with the Lord but not before the time ( Phil. 1:23)
However, I think I was misunderstood face my defense of the accusations saying I feel myself superior, and I bellit GOD's people by heavy and not soft Judgments, as many examples of Judgment recorded in the Word of GOD. In fact, the Word is GOD and Judges us, He weigheth the spirits in the balances- Proverbs 16:2 & Daniel 5:27.
By the way, "Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the Truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part"- 1Corinthians 13:4-9).
In the other hand, what does the Word of GOD say? Hebrews 12:3-4&6-9
3 Consider Him that endured contradictions of sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, GOD dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
GOD bless
You say"the third heaven is the dwelling of God'',but what does the Word of GOD say? Ps.148:4-Praise GOD,ye heavens of heavens(highest heavens),and ye waters that be above the heavens(peoples,and nations,and multitudes of all tongues; so,those which will be above the heavens are them which will be caught up out of the FIRE and be placed in the 3rd Heaven,for the 1st and 2nd heavens will be DISSOLVED- 2Peter 3:12-13,as follow:
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of GOD(the LORD's Day),wherein the HEAVENS(the 1st and 2nd heavens-THE CELESTIAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS)being on FIRE shall be DISSOLVED,and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?How?Yes, how?It is revealed and explained in Isaiah 33:10-14 combined with Hebrews 12:29 and 10:27.Take a look.
13Nevertheless we,according to GOD's promise,look for New Heavens(the next is the 3rd heaven- Luke 20:35-36.Take a look) and a new earth(new Israel),wherein dwels righteousness.
As you know,the Word is GOD,self-executing. Romans 9:28-31:
-->28For GOD WILL FINISH the work(the finish of GOD's work is from now on according to the WRATH OF GOD described in Revelation 11:15-18),and He shall cut it short in RIGHTEOUSNESS: because a SHORT WORK will the Lord make upon the earth(even now, from now on, in the last week divided in two halfs of severe and terrible chastisements),as JESUS warned in Matthew 24:22,saying:"Except those days should be SHORTENED,there should no flesh be saved:but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED
Verse 29-And as Esaias said before,Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,we had been as Sodoma(as is written in Luke 17:29-30),and been made like unto Gomorrha
30What shall we say then?That the Gentiles,which followed not after righteousness,have attained to righteousness,even the righteousness which is of faith
31But Israel,which followed after the Law of righteousness,has not attained to the law of righteousness
That said Get ready
Revelation is very symbolic, but it is also the GOSPEL, the revealing of Jesus Christ.
Until the spirit causes you to SEE and UNDERSTAND that the Word of God is talking to the person reading it, and that person reading those words Is the most likely the SYMBOL your reading about, you will stay in darkness.
Revelation is addressing the church, but that church is not the RCC or the Baptist, of any other denomination church.
Your the CHURCH, and WE are riding the beast with the name WHORE written in our head.
We blaspheme HIS NAME every day by not believing what he SAYS.
You were BAPTISED by his resurrection INTO HIS NAME.
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no TEMPLE (church) therein, because the Lord God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE (CHURCH) thereof.
2 Corinthians 6:16 .....for ye are TEMPLE of the LIVING GOD ....
You and Christ BECAME ONE: BY HIS RESURRECTION.
A beast has NO KNOWLEDGE of God; we ride the beast, until: We are BORN AGAIN by the words (truth and knowledge) of God.
Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns (the power of God, given to you by the truth and knowledge of God)) that thou sawest on the beast, THESE (the NEW CREATION) shall HATE the WHORE, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall ear her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Hebrews 12:29 Our God is a consuming fire ..... you WERE made ONE with Christ .... you are in, and have become the lake of fire.
Hebrews 1:7 ...and maketh his ministers A FLAME of FIRE .....
Isaiah 9:20 .... and shall EVERY MAN eat the FLESH of his own right arm ....
God BLESS YOU!
.
And if it's already Done it shouldn't suffer either. Pray after me Jesus you says that it is done and I ask that I will not suffer in flesh for his sake.
I will harvest too not to be used
You don't have to pray to God to give you his BODY,
It's already DONE, just give him thanks for HIS WORKS, you just have to suffer in this flesh for his sake, for an appointed time.
Our hope is not in this age, but the age to come, after we are harvested by his angels.
1 Timothy 6:16 ... Christ ONLY hath IMMORTALITY ....
1 Corinthians 15:53 .... this mortal (you) shall PUT ON IMMORTALITY ......
1 Corinthians 15:38 ... to ever SEED Christ OWN BODY ......
Matthew 8:13 ..... Be it done unto you as you BELIEVE ......
God Bless YOU!
No, not in the frame of what you're implying.
Quoting you
There is a definition that's given to us here. It says we are in the flesh if we don't have Christ. If we are not "born again" we have an illegitimate claim at being a true believer.
Whereas, those who are born again do belong to Christ & has been gather unto the Gardener.
Yet those who are in the work of sanctification of the Spirit.
They are true believers too, & belong to Christ, having received of God the gift of faith, from hearing the Word of God in their hearts to the working out of their salvation,& by that gift of faith, they receive ever increasing measures of His Spirit Gal 3:2
Hebrews 12:1 wherefore lay aside the sin that doth so easily beset us. They believe & are in the work of regeneration.
Hebrews 12:4,5,6,7,8 Holy Spirit calls them His children & He's their Father, they belong to Him
Hebrews 12:9-11 afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby, & why? Because they have become partakers of His holiness, the Divine Nature
So in the cleansing work of making holy, their growing from faith to faith & from glory to glory being brought to the baptismal of the Holy Spirit to be dead unto sin, born again of the incorruptible Seed.
Friend,
The path is straight & the gate is narrow indeed that leads to life & few there be that find it, for some then, its to narrow for them to enter. Yet our Leader has plainly mark the path for us, He takes us by the hand & leads us in the very same path that He Himself walked in, wherein He received of the Father all His glory, & so shall we, for all that would believe all things are possible. Isa 42:16 the just Rom 1:17
Its not from the studying of the letter, as one would for any other endeavor, by the art of human science, but a total resolution of one spirit to empty oneself & be guided & taught of God's Spirit John 1:9 Titus 2:11 within one's own conscience. The Immanuel of God, who is within us.
Friends, don't turn away from the Lord; Hebrews 12:29
who in His tender love trys our faith, whether it be birth & grounded in the doctrines of Christ.
True faith is birth of the Spirit & purifies the heart 1John 3:3 Psalms 24:3,4 Matt 5:8
If we are experiencing tribulations as define:
properly a pressing, pressing together, pressure within ,then our Refiner has come near us & we're in the fire being refined of false doctrines, sin or for whatsoever else He purposes are, for even after we are born again of His Spirit, tribulation & suffering continues in the perfecting of our faith, though now for a different purposes.
we're experiencing Psalms 89:14
Again, don't turn away from Christ, for He has come nearer to us, to purge out the dross
Love the Fire, its separates the precious from the vile, let us not hide our head in the darkness of an hole, like an ostrich & say i don't want to talk about it.
I hope you notice I said, we, us, our, Friends we all begin as miserable sinners, but we don't have to remain sinners.
Col 1:21,22 lets press towards the high calling in Christ Jesus
in love & truth
Lev 26:15-21 God is speaking to His people, the history of the children of Israel full of this. 2 Chronicles 7:14 Jeremiah 3:22 Hosea 6:1,2
Christ brings this into the NT John 12:40 Acts 28:27
Hebrews 12:5-11 speaking of His children
He does this in His merciful lovingkindness to us, we being so blinded by the deceitfulness of sin, it must be scourge out, define as "to flog" lit or fig, God as a father chastising and training men as children by affliction,
Chastisement; Education or training; by implication, disciplinary correction, chastening, instruction, nurture.
There's two kinds of fear, & many manifestations of each, all grounded in one of the two, godly fear which foundation is grounded in obedient reverential love for God.
The other, Satan counter part, grounded in disobedience which brings torment, where condemnation & guilt in one's own heart follows them wherever they go, for they have offended the Holy God; they having continue in disobedience to the Grace of God which appears in their hearts.
God's love in chastising correction, cast this fear & torment out
& why? John 14:21, which defines love, which makes way for John 14:23 one's habitation becomes a dwelling place for Perfect Love in the work of Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience & sprinkling of the Blood/Life of Jesus.
thus "for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Hebrews 12:11 exercising the Grace of God, the Word of Righteousness in discerning between Good & evil,, there's suffering in the Cross to learn righteousness. 1Pet 4:1
Then we have Job, who God said is perfect, Job 2:3; which trials, suffering & afflictions is of a much higher concept than punishment for disobedience, James 5:11
Hebrews 11:33 for this purpose "obtain a better resurrection"
one eighty, you would do well to live out your call name.
your in darkness, deceived; dwelling, speaking & judging falsely against God
Ephesians 5:13, therefore, Ephesians 5:14
In Love & Truth