Around 2000 years ago or much probably 67AD was written the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 6:1-3 say:
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward GOD,
2 Of the doctrine of BAPTISMS, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal Judgment.
3 And this will we do, if GOD permit.
Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of GOD; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the Word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Around 2000 years ago or much probably 60/65AD was written the book of Matthew. JESUS said: Matthew 24:14 and 32-35
14 - This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL THE WORLD for a witness unto ALL NATIONS; and then shall the END
come. (The TESTIMONY OF OUR LORD JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, UNDERSTAND? Revelation 19:10)
32 Now LEARN a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, KNOW THAT IT IS NEAR, even AT THE DOORS.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
GET READY
Philippians 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall CHANGE our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
We should "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" ( 1 Peter 3:15). We prepare by studying God's Word for ourselves, listening to sound Bible teachers, and staying in close fellowship with Jesus. Those practices keep our own lives pure so that we are not hypocrites who preach one thing but do another Galatians 6:1.
Evangelism provides eternal benefits. Jesus encouraged His followers to "store up treasure in heaven" ( Matthew 6:19). That treasure consists of rewards for what we did on earth in His name and for His glory. It is not self-centered to make choices that will ensure eternal treasure for ourselves. Jesus told us to! Our service to Him can be as simple as offering a cup of cold water to one of His own ( Matthew 10:42). The parable of the unjust steward underscores the importance of doing whatever we can to bring people to faith in Christ ( Luke 16:1-13).
4. Evangelism is an overflow of the "hope that is within us" ( Hebrews 6:19; 1 Peter 3:15). When two people fall in love, they cannot help but let everyone around them know it. Joy shows on their faces; stars glitter in their eyes. They are eager to tell anyone who will listen about the wonderful person they love. So it is when we've fallen in love with Jesus. We cannot help but tell people about Him every chance we get. We think about Him all the time. We're drawn to His Word, to worship services, and to others who love Him. We look for opportunities to share His truth with someone who is far from Him. If Jesus is not at the forefront of our minds, we have a spiritual problem and need to address that first before we can share the "hope that is within us."
There are several speculations on what the mark may be, a literal mark, a computer chip, symbols, and more but the mark of the beast will be based on worship. It is the false prophet, the second beast who causes people to worship the first beast and his image. The number 666 goes back to Babylon, the 36 gods numbered 1 through 36, 6 columns and 6 rows the numbers were arranged in such a way that the sum of any given row, column, or diagonal was 111, and therefore the sum of all six rows or all six columns was 666, like 18+20+22+21+17+13 =111, 1+2+3 to 36=666.
We are told to have faith and patience Luke 21:19Hebrews 6:12 and hear in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:11 that if we are strong in our faith and patience we will have the steadfastness and endurance (the meaning of patience) to not give into the temptation of the three who is to come, Satan, the beast out of the bottomless pit and the beast who will be the false prophet, even if we face death, the hour of temptation, Rev. 3:10.
Something like this was done in the past in the Decian persecution in 250 AD. The decree ordered sacrifices be performed in the presence of a Roman magistrate, it was a signed and witnessed certificate, issued to that effect. People had to perform a sacrifice to the Roman gods and the well-being of the emperor.
Christians were put to death for refusing to perform the sacrifices, many others apostatized and performed the ceremonies, and others went into hiding. Those who compromised were able to prosper economically. By way of contrast, those who did not have the certificate were unable to buy or sell and suffered economic hardship. Buying and selling was done in marketplaces ruled by Rome. This may be similar to what is coming but a mark instead of a certificate.
Being Born Again, see John 3:9, Jesus told Nicodemus its Like the Spirit is like the Wind, One the Spirit is in you, you are in Christ Sitting on the Right Hand of God
After being Born Again, it you went to an Altar and asked Jesus to Save You, You Committed a SIN, You entered into a Contract and You will Get Pride Out of Contract, this will Cause you to Fall under Condemnation/Control of the Devil, 1st Tim 3:6, and Revelations 12:9 see AskElm com for SECRETS HIDDEN over 1,800 Years and its GOOD NEW!
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE DWELL IN HIM, AND HE IN US, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
What John is saying is that no man has seen God at any time but if we love one another God dwells in us. In other words God today can manifest himself through believers in loving one another, "and the world sees That!
John 13:34-35, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
"What makes this so unique?" What's new about it? Isn't it listed in the Commandments? What's unique and new about it is that he causes it!
Look at verse 35.
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,.
( God gave us his Spirit that causes us to love the Brothern.)
God's Spirit, "The Holyspirit" causes those who loves God to love his brother also. 1 John 4:21"
Romans 5:5.
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
It is the Holy Spirit who regenerate you to become a believer and He indwells ever believer who confesses Jesus as Savior.
So, if you are a believer, then He dwells in you.
You ask how can you know? It is by faith from first to last that we believe the gospel and all that Jesus promised. He promised the Holy Spirit would live in us, and He does. We believe in Him trusting that He is truthful in all that He said and promised.
And I will put my spirit within you, "AND CAUSE" you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:27.
The apostle Paul says that "for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" ( Ephesians 2:10). The word "workmanship" means "that which is made, a work of art." It refers to a "masterpiece." What Paul's saying is that all God's children are His masterpieces.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Dead Works.
In the Bible the phrase "dead works" is found in the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:1-3.
"Repentance from dead works".
Repentance means to change the way we think. We need to change the way we think about dead works.
From the outside looking in we can't tell the difference between dead works and good works. They can look very much the same outwardly. They can be the same works, but they have different motives.
Praying can be a dead or good work.
Attending church can be a dead or good work.
Reading the Bible can be a dead or good work.
Telling others about Jesus can be a dead or good work.
That's why Jesus said what he said in Matthew 7:22-23.
Prophesying, casting out demons, performing miracles in the name of Jesus are all outwardly good things. But Jesus will reject "many" who do those things. Why? Because their hearts are wrong. These people have the wrong motivations for the things they do.
Dead works are any attempt to find favor, earn acceptance or be made righteous before God by one's own effort, ability or willpower.
Religion puts the emphasis on doing right. In contrast, Jesus and the apostles put the emphasis on believing right, because when we believe right we will naturally do right as a consequence.
If we can't tell outwardly, then how do we know what a good work is?
do you perceive what the Holy Spirit of Truth is revealing here?
Hebrews 6:1
therefore leaving the doctrines of Christ---not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works. meaning sinning & repenting as a way of a Christian life
one of these doctrines was that of baptisms, its in the plural form, He's distinguishing from John's, which was only a type & shadow of Christ baptism. John only reach to the cleansing of the flesh, symbolic of the ritual cleansing of the Jewish law, which he was under.
Christ, the Substance brought the better things to come, the baptism that John point to & desired, it reaches to the heart, the center & seat of our very being. Hebrews 9:14
Cleansing out the seeds of the evil one. Hebrews 10:22 evil conscience--his presence must be there Mark 7:21
Thus, Holy Spirit is revealing there's Ephesians 4:5 that's required to reach to this state of perfection were we sin no more.
Friends, as I lay here, after responding to bro Dan last thread, I continue to feel the springs from the Fountain of Life bubbling up within me, my cup is running over, so I added then added again to that which I received,
Come on; Zechariah 13:1Isa 55:1-4 the Grace of God/ Light Rev 22:17
lets us Micah 4:2 the Jerusalem Gal 4:26 in Spirit & in Truth
concerning the power of the resurrection of Christ within us, Paul reveals this when stating "not I but Christ lives in me"
the Father had prepared another body for His Son to live & move & have His being in, & where Christ goes He brings His Father with Him, John 14:23
Folks,
this is the abundant life that Christ came to bring us, Life behind the veil, the Holy of Holies, there is no sin or sinning in His dwelling, which dwelling place is within our hearts. 1Cor 3:16,17
the Corithians hadn't not reach the baptizmal of Christ, yet they were believers & were living in a measure of the Grace of God. Holy Spirit had strong extortations toward them to stop living in the flesh, the veil. though they did not lack behind in many of the graces of God.
indicating, we must press on to perfection Hebrews 6:1
2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.
Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.
Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.
This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.
(According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,) through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.)
Paul lists what's added in 2 Peter 1:5-7. "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge.
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness.
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Verse 8!
"FOR IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU", and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The contrary to "these things being in you" is seen in is verse 9.
BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In verse 10 Paul is telling us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
He is saying if according to Christ divine power hath he given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, and whereby we are given exceeding great and precious promises and by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " Make your calling and election sure: for "IF YOU ARE DOING THESE THINGS", ye shall never fall.
Hebrews 6:13-16.
When God performed this covenant with Abraham, he put Abraham to sleep. IT WAS UNCONDITIONAL!
Genesis 15:1-12.
Matthew 24:13.
This is to take place during the great tribulation period.
However, I'm not going to get into that on this thread.
This is how I interpret those verses, perhaps some can help and improve on this.
IV. This miserable defection from primitive times, when the glory of Christianity was the purity of its professors, I cannot but call the second and worst part of the Jewish tragedy upon the blessed Saviour of mankind. For the Jews, from the power of ignorance, and the extreme prejudice they were under to the unworldly way of his appearance, would not acknowledge him when he came, but for two or three years persecuted, and finally crucified him in one day. But the false Christians' cruelty lasts longer: they have first, with Judas, professed him, and then, for these many ages, most basely betrayed, persecuted, and crucified him, by a perpetual apostasy in manners, from the self-denial and holiness of his doctrine; their lives giving the lie to their faith. These are they that the author of the epistle to the Hebrews tells us, "Crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to open shame:" Hebrews 6:6 whose defiled hearts John in his Revelation styles, "The streets of Sodom and Egypt, spiritually so called, where also our Lord was crucified." Rev11:8 And as Christ said of old, a man's enemies are those of his own house, so Christ's enemies now are chiefly those of his own profession; they spit upon him, they nail and pierce him, they crown him with thorns, and give him gall and vinegar to drink. Matt27:34 Nor is it hard to apprehend; for they that live in the same evil nature and principle the Jews did, that crucified him outwardly, must needs crucify him inwardly; since they that reject the grace now in their own hearts, are one in stock and generation with the hard-hearted Jews, that resisted the grace that then appeared in and by Christ.
Maybe Matthew 6:14-15 can be applicable to such a situation, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
What about Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.". If in our heart dwells bitterness, hostility, passions, ...?
Some thoughts about the unpardonable sin. Firstly in general all unrepentant sin is unpardonable. But there are cases in a christian life that a sin can become unpardonable. It seems that there is a line that if one crosses, there is no return. I would call it "a line of repentance". When one crosses that line it seems they will never repent any more whatever happens in their life
1. An individual apostasy from God that goes on and on for a long time and christians are moving further and further away from God while their heart gets more and more hardened and their conscious becomes less and less sensitive, seems they eventually cross the line of no return. It is the situation described by Paul in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Hebrews 6:4-8.
2. Blasphemy against the HS. The word Blasphemy in anc grk has the meaning of giving somebody a bad reputation, lke calling demonic the actions of the HS. It is unpardonable. Again people who do that have already crossed the repentance line. Why? Because one who in purpose and with full knowledge of what is doing(not just repeat what he heard from somebody else) fights against God, there is noway he will ever repent.
3. Lying to the Holly Spirit, like Ananias and Sapphira did. They were not given any chance to repent(apart from being questioned by Peter), they immediately fell down dead. So trying to cheat on the Holly Spirit is unpardonable.
4. As a final one that will occur in the future. Receiving the mark of the beast is also unpardonable. This indicates that people who will accept the mark will have knowledge of what they will be doing.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." ( 2 Cor. 7:10).
Hebrews 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Perhaps the second set of verses from Hebrews helps to explain the first passage. In some sense; the wicked wish to turn away from all they have been enlightened with which in some sense explains why they can't be renewed into repentance since they have decided with all the evidence given to turn back to their sins. They have in some sense repented from committing to God and turned back to the world; flesh and the Devil being ashamed of what they consider foolish ways of ignorance apart from their own wisdom. Whether repentance can mean turning from God back to wickedness may be questionable; what is scary here is that much like Lucifer all the evidences of God's glory is seen and because of pride is rejected. As Jesus Himself said in John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. WE MUST NOT BE ASHAMED OF GOD'S METHOD to be admitted into heaven; it is the narrow way to life that must be followed ( Matthew 17:13-14). More in next post.
Simply put; the Holy Spirit is the method of displaying Christ's presence on earth. Hebrews 6:4-8 as well as 1 Peter 2:3 show that those who have tasted the heavenly gift and other things of the Spirit as well as the powers of the coming age to be renewed once again to repentance once fallen away. This ties in for several reasons to the text in Matthew 12:31. We must remember first of all that much like Satan Himself Christ's works were made manifest for all men to see and thus nothing more could be done after witnessing undeniable miracles such as blind being healed which had never been seen in O.T. times. Also; of course the Pharisees accused him of using the power of Beelzebub to perform His miracles; despite the fact that the Spirit even before the church age was there such as with John the Baptist to convict the world of sin; righteousness and judgment to come. ( John 16:8). The Pharisees denied the Divinity of Christ and that was after all they saw and Christ saying that He was the I AM ( John 8:58). Therefore they wouldn't accept worshipping Him and His Divinity as a member of the Godhead was hidden from them. Therefore Satan was truly their God. ( John 8:44).
Satan Himself was built on pride and self-exaltation therefore was mad enough to desire worship for himself despite being in heaven and seeing God's glory and no doubt the earth and the rest of Creation therefore he was given no chance of repentance ( Job 38:7). We see singing in that verse; something Lucifer as Cheribum was designed to do in charge of worship but it was turned to evil. By default then Satan is the God and loyalty of all who do this to the Spirit; most will sin and admit God is righteous or simply hate God or be afraid (as in the sixth seal); eventually Satan will be sent for those who LOVE not the truth but a lie ( 2 Thess. 2:10). Like it or not Antichrist will eventually blasphemy God and yet all those not in the Book of Life will worship him and be damned ( Rev. 13:8).
P1: Re-read some scriptures last evening and would like to write them here.
All of John Chapter 13 ; Chapter 14
John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men."
Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature."
Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory and express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknowledge, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."
1 Corinthians 1:29 "That no flesh glory in his presence"
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS."
Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privileges."
Isaiah 53:1 "Who hat believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"
Philippians 2:5 - 6 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
Hebrews 6:20 "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."
You stated, "the apostles had not been told the Gospel will also be given to the Gentiles, the time had not come. There were another 3.5 years after Jesus's ministry before the apostles were told the gospel of Christ will be given to the Greeks/Gentiles.
I agree with Gigi, The Apostles were told to go out to preach the gospel to the whole world and I believe the old economy "if that's the correct term to use" ended at the crucifixion when the veil was rent from top to bottom.
The timing of the beginning and ending of what God ordained in the old and in the new covenant was totally of God, "Not according to man's response to it"
The OT scripture said salvation would go out to the Gentiles by the seed which shall come. some expected it in the New Testament as seen in Luke 2:30-32. For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Also.
Jesus said in John 2:19-22 he would tare the temple down and build it again in 3 days.
That was the end of temporary temple that only served as a shadow of what was to come. Hebrews 9:6-11.
When he rose from the grave, he went to the disciples and see here what he said in Luke 24:42-48.
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things!
Concerning the veil being rent from top to bottom.
Here is what was accomplished at the death and resurrection of our Lord.
Here in Hebrews 6:17-20 we see Jesus as our "forerunner" and High Priest.
We have been once and for all cleansed and can now enter therein with a clear conscience. See Hebrews 9:8-26.
Also.
Hebrews 10:8-22.
The veil being rent signifies the end of the old covenant and the resurrection ushered in the new covenant.
The commission came right afterwards. Luke 24:42-49. and Matthew 28:19-20.
There are many commandments in the Bible related to Salvation. Some of these are "Repent", "Believe", "Endure", etc. And our obedience to ANY commandment of God, i.e. the Law of God, is a WORK that we do. But our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance does NOT save us. No obedience to the Law of God can save us. Our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance in a way that is pleasing to God is the RESULT of our Salvation, not the CAUSE of our Salvation. It is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation as God "works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure".
These WORKS are also a yardstick to help us determine whether or not we have truly become "saved". "Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith", "Make your calling and election sure", etc. All warnings and admonitions given to us by God's Mercy so that if we do not see these things in our life, we may still cry out to God in the very real Hope that He might save us. And if we do see these characteristics in our life with an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to His Commandments, it gives us assurance that God has indeed "saved" us and we are safe and secure in His everlasting arms. Despite the fact that we do fall into sin again and again when we take our eyes off of Christ; and God may need to chastise us, as a father does his son, to cause us grow in grace. Praise God for so great salvation!
I really don't think I'm isolating verses in the Bible to come to this belief.
You did not answer my question David, Do you think repenting of our sins is works?
In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 Jesus says to 6 of the 7 churches "I know (thy works)"
To the other one He says "for I have not found (thy works) perfect before God".
To the church of Ephesus He says in ( Rev. 2:5) "((except thou repent))."
to the church of Pergamos He says in ( Rev. 2:16) "((Repent or else)) I will come upon thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth".
To the church of Thyatira He says in ( Rev. 2:22) "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, ((except they repent)) of their deeds".
To the church of Sardis He says in ( Rev. 3:3) "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, ((and repent))".
To the church of Laodicea He says in ( Rev. 2:19) "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, ((and repent)).
We are told in ( Acts. 17:30) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where ((to repent)).
These verses are very clear Jesus is speaking of ((their works)), and also ((repentance for their sins)).
( Rev. 2:16) Jesus tells them Repent or else He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth.
Do you believe (repenting) of our sins is works David?
I agree that many today are departing from the Word of God, we are told that will happen in ( 2 Tim. 4:3-4).
You said "Unfortunately the ( 2 Thess. 2:2-5) passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this "apostasy".
This I do respectfully disagree with Chris, if we look at the True meaning of the words (falling away) in the Greek language it is #646; it means defection from truth, (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
((a (writing of) divorcement from what?))
A departure from the (Christian faith) would be rejecting Jesus Christ not the Word of God.
We see the marriage supper of the Lamb taking place in ( Rev. 19:7-9) Those who fall away receive the (writing of) divorcement after the Abandonment of their ((Christian faith)) a total desertion or departure ((from their faith))
Those who fall away (depart from or desert their Christian faith) will not be present at this marriage supper of the Lamb.
( 1 Tim. 4:1) "that in the latter times" (This is speaking of the Lastdays) "some shall (depart) from the (faith)"
The word (depart) is #868; it means to remove, i.e. actively instigate to revolt, to desist, desert, depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
The word (faith) is #4102; persuasion, i.e. credence; morally conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher, especially ((reliance upon Christ for salvation)).
This has to be True Believers in Jesus Christ (1st) to desert or abandon their Christian faith. And (2nd) to receive a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ for their departure of their faith. And it is written this happens in the (latter times) which would be today.
Is the Gospel of the Bible a gospel of Grace Alone or is it a gospel of Grace plus Works?
We can find many verses in the Bible that if isolated from the rest of the Bible could lead us down a path of believing that we must DO something to become saved. And if that is the case, then we can certainly DO something, or fail to DO something to lose our salvation. But when we look at everything in the Bible that teaches us about the Nature of Salvation, we find that is not true.
Many people use the term ACCEPTING CHRIST or DECIDING FOR CHRIST. These are things that WE DO. Just like obedience to any commandment of God is a WORK that WE DO. And no WORK that WE DO can save us. That is a gospel of grace plus works. It is not the gospel of the Bible.
Read Galatians very carefully. Read Romans very carefully. Read the entire chapter.
Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The True Gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does ALL THE WORK in saving us and KEEPING US. This must be the case because we BY NATURE are DEAD spiritually. It is when GOD SAVES US that he raises us to spiritual life. A life that CANNOT be lost. A life that is ETERNAL LIFE. And there will be a "want to" in our life to keep the Law, but it is NOT our obedience to the Law that saves or keeps us. We must make that distinction.
In coming to an understanding of what it means to be "saved" we must compare scripture with scripture and not isolate verses form the rest of the Bible.
These haven't rejected (apostatized from) Christ but have perverted God's Word by their apostatizing from revealed & accepted Truth (the Word of God as given by Jesus & His apostles), and promoted their own beliefs & interpretations, thereby causing many to err & turn to unrighteous beliefs & practises. And I have not shared this here to bring on 'a KJB vs other translation' argument (though there is evidence that any grave corruption of the Word can lead to much error in belief as well).
But maybe we should consider that in light of the many Scriptures that show that a true child of God is sealed, secured, & ministered to by the Holy Spirit, and could never leave nor desire to depart from such a great abundant salvation, that the possibility of what Paul was presenting, is that this 'falling away' could well be that God's Word would increasingly be mishandled in the days after he left this Earth, giving over to a 'doctrine of devils' teaching. That this 'falling away' & the 'man of sin' being revealed, shows just how far Christ's Church has departed from the Body of Truth, and this 'man of sin' could well be a religious person but giving no regard to God's Word, rather submitting his own word as God's Voice. Of course, those who are believers, whether in the congregation of such apostasy from the Word, would soon depart, wanting only to hear the Truth of God's Word, but those who have no such discerning spirit, would readily pay him heed. Even now, as was in the past ( 1 John 2:18,19), there would be imposters, even among the clergy, that have infiltrated the Church. So I just share this, an option here, as we need to keep the matter open concerning 'apostasy', since Paul hasn't directly stated in what manner this 'apostasy' would happen, whether concerning true believers or concerning God's Word & those professing to be Christian. Blessings.
Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).
When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').
Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.
Thank you for your reply. Everybody is a sinner before they are saved David. And what it means to be saved is you are given Eternal Life and will be delivered, saved (we will meet the Lord in the clouds) before the wrath of God is poured out on all the disobedient ones who are left on the earth. ( Jn. 3:36).
We are told in ( Acts. 3:19) ((Repent ye)) therefore, and be converted, ((that your sins may be blotted out)), when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
(So repentance is required to have your sins blotted out) Some would call that works, would you David?
( Romans. 3:21-25) v21 "But now the righteousness of God (without the law) is manifested"
v24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
v25 "through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness (for the remission of sins) ((that are past)) through the forbearance of God" (sins that are past)!
( 1 John. 1:8-10) (We must confess our sins, (REPENT) of our sins before our sins will be forgiven and we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness)
( Acts. 26:20) Tells us "that they should repent and turn to God, (AND DO WORKS) meet for repentance"
David you asked a very interesting question. you asked "How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy"?
The meaning of the word "apostasy" will give you the answer David, If you truly want the Truth.
["apostasy"] means (An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)
So the one's (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) are those who abandon what they once professed, who depart from their faith, the (falling away) are those who totally abandon their Christian faith. These would be the same as ( 1 Tim. 4:1) ((some shall depart from the faith, falling away)).
Hi David0921. Just to intrude to this good thread; I know that we've not found agreement on some things (even about presently being in the Great Tribulation), but in the matter of a (true) believer's eternal security, I do heartily agree with you. What God has saved & secured cannot be lost.
My sense is that those who believe that a Christian's security in salvation can be lost and/or that a Christian can never be sure that he is saved until that day when all have to stand before God's Throne, stands flawed, not understanding these fundamental Truths (both from Scripture & experience). And these Truths are: when we speak of a Christian, are we understanding only in a spiritual REFORMATION or in a TRANSFORMATION. And secondly, with the Christian's claimed faith: is it seen & believed by him as a PROFESSION or as a POSSESSION.
If we take the time to analyse these spiritual positions in our own lives, & yet not to be used for the judgement of others, then we can come close to understanding how a believer (whether a new 'convert' who responds to the Gospel invitation, or to an aged 'believer' who eventually allows sin to take hold & departs from the Lord) how he actually stands in regards to a true conversion & a faith that saves.
When we take all the Scriptures that supposedly prove that a Christian's salvation can be lost & all the Scriptures that prove that it cannot be lost, then we should apply those rules to see how a 'Christian' ought to behave & how the Work of God, His Spirit, does a complete, lasting, irrevocable work in the truly born again person. It is true that when we see a faithful Spirit-filled believer go the distance, never denying the Lord & His Work of Grace in his life, we know that that person has finished his course well. But the teachings & admonitions of the apostles (& of pastors today) were to encourage, warn & assist in spiritual growth & not to face God's Discipline. Those who had not the Spirit of Christ were none of His ( Rom 8:9).
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward GOD,
2 Of the doctrine of BAPTISMS, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal Judgment.
3 And this will we do, if GOD permit.
Hebrews 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of GOD; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the Word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Around 2000 years ago or much probably 60/65AD was written the book of Matthew. JESUS said: Matthew 24:14 and 32-35
14 - This Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL THE WORLD for a witness unto ALL NATIONS; and then shall the END
come. (The TESTIMONY OF OUR LORD JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, UNDERSTAND? Revelation 19:10)
32 Now LEARN a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, KNOW THAT IT IS NEAR, even AT THE DOORS.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
GET READY
Philippians 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall CHANGE our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing
Part 2.
We should "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" ( 1 Peter 3:15). We prepare by studying God's Word for ourselves, listening to sound Bible teachers, and staying in close fellowship with Jesus. Those practices keep our own lives pure so that we are not hypocrites who preach one thing but do another Galatians 6:1.
Evangelism provides eternal benefits. Jesus encouraged His followers to "store up treasure in heaven" ( Matthew 6:19). That treasure consists of rewards for what we did on earth in His name and for His glory. It is not self-centered to make choices that will ensure eternal treasure for ourselves. Jesus told us to! Our service to Him can be as simple as offering a cup of cold water to one of His own ( Matthew 10:42). The parable of the unjust steward underscores the importance of doing whatever we can to bring people to faith in Christ ( Luke 16:1-13).
4. Evangelism is an overflow of the "hope that is within us" ( Hebrews 6:19; 1 Peter 3:15). When two people fall in love, they cannot help but let everyone around them know it. Joy shows on their faces; stars glitter in their eyes. They are eager to tell anyone who will listen about the wonderful person they love. So it is when we've fallen in love with Jesus. We cannot help but tell people about Him every chance we get. We think about Him all the time. We're drawn to His Word, to worship services, and to others who love Him. We look for opportunities to share His truth with someone who is far from Him. If Jesus is not at the forefront of our minds, we have a spiritual problem and need to address that first before we can share the "hope that is within us."
See part 3.
There are several speculations on what the mark may be, a literal mark, a computer chip, symbols, and more but the mark of the beast will be based on worship. It is the false prophet, the second beast who causes people to worship the first beast and his image. The number 666 goes back to Babylon, the 36 gods numbered 1 through 36, 6 columns and 6 rows the numbers were arranged in such a way that the sum of any given row, column, or diagonal was 111, and therefore the sum of all six rows or all six columns was 666, like 18+20+22+21+17+13 =111, 1+2+3 to 36=666.
We are told to have faith and patience Luke 21:19 Hebrews 6:12 and hear in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:11 that if we are strong in our faith and patience we will have the steadfastness and endurance (the meaning of patience) to not give into the temptation of the three who is to come, Satan, the beast out of the bottomless pit and the beast who will be the false prophet, even if we face death, the hour of temptation, Rev. 3:10.
Something like this was done in the past in the Decian persecution in 250 AD. The decree ordered sacrifices be performed in the presence of a Roman magistrate, it was a signed and witnessed certificate, issued to that effect. People had to perform a sacrifice to the Roman gods and the well-being of the emperor.
Christians were put to death for refusing to perform the sacrifices, many others apostatized and performed the ceremonies, and others went into hiding. Those who compromised were able to prosper economically. By way of contrast, those who did not have the certificate were unable to buy or sell and suffered economic hardship. Buying and selling was done in marketplaces ruled by Rome. This may be similar to what is coming but a mark instead of a certificate.
Hope this helps.
God bless,
RLW
After being Born Again, it you went to an Altar and asked Jesus to Save You, You Committed a SIN, You entered into a Contract and You will Get Pride Out of Contract, this will Cause you to Fall under Condemnation/Control of the Devil, 1st Tim 3:6, and Revelations 12:9 see AskElm com for SECRETS HIDDEN over 1,800 Years and its GOOD NEW!
I would like to add to what Gigi has shared.
1 John 4:12-16.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE DWELL IN HIM, AND HE IN US, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
What John is saying is that no man has seen God at any time but if we love one another God dwells in us. In other words God today can manifest himself through believers in loving one another, "and the world sees That!
John 13:34-35, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
"What makes this so unique?" What's new about it? Isn't it listed in the Commandments? What's unique and new about it is that he causes it!
Look at verse 35.
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,.
( God gave us his Spirit that causes us to love the Brothern.)
God's Spirit, "The Holyspirit" causes those who loves God to love his brother also. 1 John 4:21"
Romans 5:5.
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
I hope this helps. God bless.
It is the Holy Spirit who regenerate you to become a believer and He indwells ever believer who confesses Jesus as Savior.
So, if you are a believer, then He dwells in you.
You ask how can you know? It is by faith from first to last that we believe the gospel and all that Jesus promised. He promised the Holy Spirit would live in us, and He does. We believe in Him trusting that He is truthful in all that He said and promised.
Part 1
And I will put my spirit within you, "AND CAUSE" you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezekiel 36:27.
The apostle Paul says that "for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" ( Ephesians 2:10). The word "workmanship" means "that which is made, a work of art." It refers to a "masterpiece." What Paul's saying is that all God's children are His masterpieces.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Dead Works.
In the Bible the phrase "dead works" is found in the book of Hebrews.
Hebrews 6:1-3.
"Repentance from dead works".
Repentance means to change the way we think. We need to change the way we think about dead works.
From the outside looking in we can't tell the difference between dead works and good works. They can look very much the same outwardly. They can be the same works, but they have different motives.
Praying can be a dead or good work.
Attending church can be a dead or good work.
Reading the Bible can be a dead or good work.
Telling others about Jesus can be a dead or good work.
That's why Jesus said what he said in Matthew 7:22-23.
Prophesying, casting out demons, performing miracles in the name of Jesus are all outwardly good things. But Jesus will reject "many" who do those things. Why? Because their hearts are wrong. These people have the wrong motivations for the things they do.
Dead works are any attempt to find favor, earn acceptance or be made righteous before God by one's own effort, ability or willpower.
Religion puts the emphasis on doing right. In contrast, Jesus and the apostles put the emphasis on believing right, because when we believe right we will naturally do right as a consequence.
If we can't tell outwardly, then how do we know what a good work is?
See part 2.
do you perceive what the Holy Spirit of Truth is revealing here?
Hebrews 6:1
therefore leaving the doctrines of Christ---not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works. meaning sinning & repenting as a way of a Christian life
one of these doctrines was that of baptisms, its in the plural form, He's distinguishing from John's, which was only a type & shadow of Christ baptism. John only reach to the cleansing of the flesh, symbolic of the ritual cleansing of the Jewish law, which he was under.
Christ, the Substance brought the better things to come, the baptism that John point to & desired, it reaches to the heart, the center & seat of our very being. Hebrews 9:14
Cleansing out the seeds of the evil one. Hebrews 10:22 evil conscience--his presence must be there Mark 7:21
Thus, Holy Spirit is revealing there's Ephesians 4:5 that's required to reach to this state of perfection were we sin no more.
Friends, as I lay here, after responding to bro Dan last thread, I continue to feel the springs from the Fountain of Life bubbling up within me, my cup is running over, so I added then added again to that which I received,
Come on; Zechariah 13:1 Isa 55:1-4 the Grace of God/ Light Rev 22:17
lets us Micah 4:2 the Jerusalem Gal 4:26 in Spirit & in Truth
in love & truth
the Father had prepared another body for His Son to live & move & have His being in, & where Christ goes He brings His Father with Him, John 14:23
Folks,
this is the abundant life that Christ came to bring us, Life behind the veil, the Holy of Holies, there is no sin or sinning in His dwelling, which dwelling place is within our hearts. 1Cor 3:16,17
the Corithians hadn't not reach the baptizmal of Christ, yet they were believers & were living in a measure of the Grace of God. Holy Spirit had strong extortations toward them to stop living in the flesh, the veil. though they did not lack behind in many of the graces of God.
indicating, we must press on to perfection Hebrews 6:1
Part four,
2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.
Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.
Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.
This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.
See part 5.
Part 7.
2 Peter 1:10.
Let's take this from verses 3-4.
(According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,) through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
(Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.)
Paul lists what's added in 2 Peter 1:5-7. "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge.
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness.
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Verse 8!
"FOR IF THESE THINGS BE IN YOU", and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The contrary to "these things being in you" is seen in is verse 9.
BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
In verse 10 Paul is telling us to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
He is saying if according to Christ divine power hath he given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, and whereby we are given exceeding great and precious promises and by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " Make your calling and election sure: for "IF YOU ARE DOING THESE THINGS", ye shall never fall.
Hebrews 6:13-16.
When God performed this covenant with Abraham, he put Abraham to sleep. IT WAS UNCONDITIONAL!
Genesis 15:1-12.
Matthew 24:13.
This is to take place during the great tribulation period.
However, I'm not going to get into that on this thread.
This is how I interpret those verses, perhaps some can help and improve on this.
God bless you brother.
IV. This miserable defection from primitive times, when the glory of Christianity was the purity of its professors, I cannot but call the second and worst part of the Jewish tragedy upon the blessed Saviour of mankind. For the Jews, from the power of ignorance, and the extreme prejudice they were under to the unworldly way of his appearance, would not acknowledge him when he came, but for two or three years persecuted, and finally crucified him in one day. But the false Christians' cruelty lasts longer: they have first, with Judas, professed him, and then, for these many ages, most basely betrayed, persecuted, and crucified him, by a perpetual apostasy in manners, from the self-denial and holiness of his doctrine; their lives giving the lie to their faith. These are they that the author of the epistle to the Hebrews tells us, "Crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to open shame:" Hebrews 6:6 whose defiled hearts John in his Revelation styles, "The streets of Sodom and Egypt, spiritually so called, where also our Lord was crucified." Rev11:8 And as Christ said of old, a man's enemies are those of his own house, so Christ's enemies now are chiefly those of his own profession; they spit upon him, they nail and pierce him, they crown him with thorns, and give him gall and vinegar to drink. Matt27:34 Nor is it hard to apprehend; for they that live in the same evil nature and principle the Jews did, that crucified him outwardly, must needs crucify him inwardly; since they that reject the grace now in their own hearts, are one in stock and generation with the hard-hearted Jews, that resisted the grace that then appeared in and by Christ.
conti....
Maybe Matthew 6:14-15 can be applicable to such a situation, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses"
What about Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.". If in our heart dwells bitterness, hostility, passions, ...?
Some thoughts about the unpardonable sin. Firstly in general all unrepentant sin is unpardonable. But there are cases in a christian life that a sin can become unpardonable. It seems that there is a line that if one crosses, there is no return. I would call it "a line of repentance". When one crosses that line it seems they will never repent any more whatever happens in their life
1. An individual apostasy from God that goes on and on for a long time and christians are moving further and further away from God while their heart gets more and more hardened and their conscious becomes less and less sensitive, seems they eventually cross the line of no return. It is the situation described by Paul in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Hebrews 6:4-8.
2. Blasphemy against the HS. The word Blasphemy in anc grk has the meaning of giving somebody a bad reputation, lke calling demonic the actions of the HS. It is unpardonable. Again people who do that have already crossed the repentance line. Why? Because one who in purpose and with full knowledge of what is doing(not just repeat what he heard from somebody else) fights against God, there is noway he will ever repent.
3. Lying to the Holly Spirit, like Ananias and Sapphira did. They were not given any chance to repent(apart from being questioned by Peter), they immediately fell down dead. So trying to cheat on the Holly Spirit is unpardonable.
4. As a final one that will occur in the future. Receiving the mark of the beast is also unpardonable. This indicates that people who will accept the mark will have knowledge of what they will be doing.
Blessings.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." ( 2 Cor. 7:10).
Hebrews 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Perhaps the second set of verses from Hebrews helps to explain the first passage. In some sense; the wicked wish to turn away from all they have been enlightened with which in some sense explains why they can't be renewed into repentance since they have decided with all the evidence given to turn back to their sins. They have in some sense repented from committing to God and turned back to the world; flesh and the Devil being ashamed of what they consider foolish ways of ignorance apart from their own wisdom. Whether repentance can mean turning from God back to wickedness may be questionable; what is scary here is that much like Lucifer all the evidences of God's glory is seen and because of pride is rejected. As Jesus Himself said in John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. WE MUST NOT BE ASHAMED OF GOD'S METHOD to be admitted into heaven; it is the narrow way to life that must be followed ( Matthew 17:13-14). More in next post.
Satan Himself was built on pride and self-exaltation therefore was mad enough to desire worship for himself despite being in heaven and seeing God's glory and no doubt the earth and the rest of Creation therefore he was given no chance of repentance ( Job 38:7). We see singing in that verse; something Lucifer as Cheribum was designed to do in charge of worship but it was turned to evil. By default then Satan is the God and loyalty of all who do this to the Spirit; most will sin and admit God is righteous or simply hate God or be afraid (as in the sixth seal); eventually Satan will be sent for those who LOVE not the truth but a lie ( 2 Thess. 2:10). Like it or not Antichrist will eventually blasphemy God and yet all those not in the Book of Life will worship him and be damned ( Rev. 13:8).
All of John Chapter 13 ; Chapter 14
John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men."
Colossians 1:15 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature."
Romans 8:32 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory and express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknowledge, he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first born among many brethren."
1 Corinthians 1:29 "That no flesh glory in his presence"
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS."
Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privileges."
Isaiah 53:1 "Who hat believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"
Philippians 2:5 - 6 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
Hebrews 6:20 "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest after the order of Melchisedec."
P2 follows
You stated, "the apostles had not been told the Gospel will also be given to the Gentiles, the time had not come. There were another 3.5 years after Jesus's ministry before the apostles were told the gospel of Christ will be given to the Greeks/Gentiles.
I agree with Gigi, The Apostles were told to go out to preach the gospel to the whole world and I believe the old economy "if that's the correct term to use" ended at the crucifixion when the veil was rent from top to bottom.
The timing of the beginning and ending of what God ordained in the old and in the new covenant was totally of God, "Not according to man's response to it"
The OT scripture said salvation would go out to the Gentiles by the seed which shall come. some expected it in the New Testament as seen in Luke 2:30-32. For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, which thou hast prepared before the face of all people. A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Also.
Jesus said in John 2:19-22 he would tare the temple down and build it again in 3 days.
That was the end of temporary temple that only served as a shadow of what was to come. Hebrews 9:6-11.
When he rose from the grave, he went to the disciples and see here what he said in Luke 24:42-48.
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things!
Concerning the veil being rent from top to bottom.
Here is what was accomplished at the death and resurrection of our Lord.
Here in Hebrews 6:17-20 we see Jesus as our "forerunner" and High Priest.
We have been once and for all cleansed and can now enter therein with a clear conscience. See Hebrews 9:8-26.
Also.
Hebrews 10:8-22.
The veil being rent signifies the end of the old covenant and the resurrection ushered in the new covenant.
The commission came right afterwards. Luke 24:42-49. and Matthew 28:19-20.
God bless.
I responded to you on that question on 5/27. The response is entitled "It really comes down to this" part 2.
And yes, Repentance is a work. Any obedience to any command of God is a "work" that we do. And we are certainly commanded to Repent.
I would like to here your answer to this one question David, I did ask several times and you did not answer it.
Do you think that (repenting) of our sins is considered to be works?
Thank you David,
Blessings to you.
It really comes down to this (part 2).
There are many commandments in the Bible related to Salvation. Some of these are "Repent", "Believe", "Endure", etc. And our obedience to ANY commandment of God, i.e. the Law of God, is a WORK that we do. But our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance does NOT save us. No obedience to the Law of God can save us. Our Repentance, our Belief, our Endurance in a way that is pleasing to God is the RESULT of our Salvation, not the CAUSE of our Salvation. It is the EVIDENCE of our Salvation as God "works within us to will and to do of His good pleasure".
These WORKS are also a yardstick to help us determine whether or not we have truly become "saved". "Examine yourself to see if you be in the faith", "Make your calling and election sure", etc. All warnings and admonitions given to us by God's Mercy so that if we do not see these things in our life, we may still cry out to God in the very real Hope that He might save us. And if we do see these characteristics in our life with an earnest and ongoing desire to be obedient to His Commandments, it gives us assurance that God has indeed "saved" us and we are safe and secure in His everlasting arms. Despite the fact that we do fall into sin again and again when we take our eyes off of Christ; and God may need to chastise us, as a father does his son, to cause us grow in grace. Praise God for so great salvation!
I really don't think I'm isolating verses in the Bible to come to this belief.
You did not answer my question David, Do you think repenting of our sins is works?
In Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 Jesus says to 6 of the 7 churches "I know (thy works)"
To the other one He says "for I have not found (thy works) perfect before God".
To the church of Ephesus He says in ( Rev. 2:5) "((except thou repent))."
to the church of Pergamos He says in ( Rev. 2:16) "((Repent or else)) I will come upon thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth".
To the church of Thyatira He says in ( Rev. 2:22) "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, ((except they repent)) of their deeds".
To the church of Sardis He says in ( Rev. 3:3) "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, ((and repent))".
To the church of Laodicea He says in ( Rev. 2:19) "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, ((and repent)).
We are told in ( Acts. 17:30) "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where ((to repent)).
These verses are very clear Jesus is speaking of ((their works)), and also ((repentance for their sins)).
( Rev. 2:16) Jesus tells them Repent or else He will fight against them with the sword of His mouth.
Do you believe (repenting) of our sins is works David?
Blessings.
I agree that many today are departing from the Word of God, we are told that will happen in ( 2 Tim. 4:3-4).
You said "Unfortunately the ( 2 Thess. 2:2-5) passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this "apostasy".
This I do respectfully disagree with Chris, if we look at the True meaning of the words (falling away) in the Greek language it is #646; it means defection from truth, (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce, (writing of) divorcement.
((a (writing of) divorcement from what?))
A departure from the (Christian faith) would be rejecting Jesus Christ not the Word of God.
We see the marriage supper of the Lamb taking place in ( Rev. 19:7-9) Those who fall away receive the (writing of) divorcement after the Abandonment of their ((Christian faith)) a total desertion or departure ((from their faith))
Those who fall away (depart from or desert their Christian faith) will not be present at this marriage supper of the Lamb.
( 1 Tim. 4:1) "that in the latter times" (This is speaking of the Lastdays) "some shall (depart) from the (faith)"
The word (depart) is #868; it means to remove, i.e. actively instigate to revolt, to desist, desert, depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.
The word (faith) is #4102; persuasion, i.e. credence; morally conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher, especially ((reliance upon Christ for salvation)).
This has to be True Believers in Jesus Christ (1st) to desert or abandon their Christian faith. And (2nd) to receive a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ for their departure of their faith. And it is written this happens in the (latter times) which would be today.
Again thank you Chris. God Bless.
It really comes down to this.
Is the Gospel of the Bible a gospel of Grace Alone or is it a gospel of Grace plus Works?
We can find many verses in the Bible that if isolated from the rest of the Bible could lead us down a path of believing that we must DO something to become saved. And if that is the case, then we can certainly DO something, or fail to DO something to lose our salvation. But when we look at everything in the Bible that teaches us about the Nature of Salvation, we find that is not true.
Many people use the term ACCEPTING CHRIST or DECIDING FOR CHRIST. These are things that WE DO. Just like obedience to any commandment of God is a WORK that WE DO. And no WORK that WE DO can save us. That is a gospel of grace plus works. It is not the gospel of the Bible.
Read Galatians very carefully. Read Romans very carefully. Read the entire chapter.
Galatians 1:6-9
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
The True Gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does ALL THE WORK in saving us and KEEPING US. This must be the case because we BY NATURE are DEAD spiritually. It is when GOD SAVES US that he raises us to spiritual life. A life that CANNOT be lost. A life that is ETERNAL LIFE. And there will be a "want to" in our life to keep the Law, but it is NOT our obedience to the Law that saves or keeps us. We must make that distinction.
In coming to an understanding of what it means to be "saved" we must compare scripture with scripture and not isolate verses form the rest of the Bible.
These haven't rejected (apostatized from) Christ but have perverted God's Word by their apostatizing from revealed & accepted Truth (the Word of God as given by Jesus & His apostles), and promoted their own beliefs & interpretations, thereby causing many to err & turn to unrighteous beliefs & practises. And I have not shared this here to bring on 'a KJB vs other translation' argument (though there is evidence that any grave corruption of the Word can lead to much error in belief as well).
But maybe we should consider that in light of the many Scriptures that show that a true child of God is sealed, secured, & ministered to by the Holy Spirit, and could never leave nor desire to depart from such a great abundant salvation, that the possibility of what Paul was presenting, is that this 'falling away' could well be that God's Word would increasingly be mishandled in the days after he left this Earth, giving over to a 'doctrine of devils' teaching. That this 'falling away' & the 'man of sin' being revealed, shows just how far Christ's Church has departed from the Body of Truth, and this 'man of sin' could well be a religious person but giving no regard to God's Word, rather submitting his own word as God's Voice. Of course, those who are believers, whether in the congregation of such apostasy from the Word, would soon depart, wanting only to hear the Truth of God's Word, but those who have no such discerning spirit, would readily pay him heed. Even now, as was in the past ( 1 John 2:18,19), there would be imposters, even among the clergy, that have infiltrated the Church. So I just share this, an option here, as we need to keep the matter open concerning 'apostasy', since Paul hasn't directly stated in what manner this 'apostasy' would happen, whether concerning true believers or concerning God's Word & those professing to be Christian. Blessings.
Hi Jimbob. You wrote well though if I could just highlight the 'apostasy' (apostasia), as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, & consider what the Apostle Paul was speaking of here. I realize that it would be simple to understand his statement as applying to believers, before that day of Christ's coming, that some would apostatize by rejecting Christ going back into the world or to embrace another religion. But are we correct to believe that this was what Paul was speaking of in light of his other writings & that of our Lord? (refs. John 10:27-29; John 6:37; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13,14; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:28-30; Jude 1:24,25; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Timothy 2:19).
When we look at the definition of 'apostasy', it is as you have given ("An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith"). But 'apostasy' is not simply restricted to a 'total departure from one's faith' but also 'a total departure or abandonment of one's principles, party, cause' (and one could even add 'departure from the Word of God which lays out the principles and Truths of doctrine & righteous living').
Unfortunately, the 2 Thessalonians 2:2-5 passage is not explicit to show us how Paul was applying this 'apostasy'. Obviously, the Thessalonian believers probably knew much more than we have been given (v5 'remember...I told you these things?'). Clearly, this apostasy doesn't relate to principles or causes of the world, because its context shows that Paul is speaking of an apostasy that will affect believers in some way. The question then is: is it the rejection of Christ altogether, or a departure/rejection of the Truth of God's Word? But isn't that the same thing, one could ask? I think you will agree Jimbob, that this rejection of Truth & promotion of unbiblical interpretations & lifestyle, has been going on for a long time - from within the Church itself.
Thank you for your reply. Everybody is a sinner before they are saved David. And what it means to be saved is you are given Eternal Life and will be delivered, saved (we will meet the Lord in the clouds) before the wrath of God is poured out on all the disobedient ones who are left on the earth. ( Jn. 3:36).
We are told in ( Acts. 3:19) ((Repent ye)) therefore, and be converted, ((that your sins may be blotted out)), when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
(So repentance is required to have your sins blotted out) Some would call that works, would you David?
( Romans. 3:21-25) v21 "But now the righteousness of God (without the law) is manifested"
v24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"
v25 "through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness (for the remission of sins) ((that are past)) through the forbearance of God" (sins that are past)!
( 1 John. 1:8-10) (We must confess our sins, (REPENT) of our sins before our sins will be forgiven and we will be cleansed from all unrighteousness)
( Acts. 26:20) Tells us "that they should repent and turn to God, (AND DO WORKS) meet for repentance"
David you asked a very interesting question. you asked "How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy"?
The meaning of the word "apostasy" will give you the answer David, If you truly want the Truth.
["apostasy"] means (An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)
So the one's (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) are those who abandon what they once professed, who depart from their faith, the (falling away) are those who totally abandon their Christian faith. These would be the same as ( 1 Tim. 4:1) ((some shall depart from the faith, falling away)).
Blessings to you David.
My sense is that those who believe that a Christian's security in salvation can be lost and/or that a Christian can never be sure that he is saved until that day when all have to stand before God's Throne, stands flawed, not understanding these fundamental Truths (both from Scripture & experience). And these Truths are: when we speak of a Christian, are we understanding only in a spiritual REFORMATION or in a TRANSFORMATION. And secondly, with the Christian's claimed faith: is it seen & believed by him as a PROFESSION or as a POSSESSION.
If we take the time to analyse these spiritual positions in our own lives, & yet not to be used for the judgement of others, then we can come close to understanding how a believer (whether a new 'convert' who responds to the Gospel invitation, or to an aged 'believer' who eventually allows sin to take hold & departs from the Lord) how he actually stands in regards to a true conversion & a faith that saves.
When we take all the Scriptures that supposedly prove that a Christian's salvation can be lost & all the Scriptures that prove that it cannot be lost, then we should apply those rules to see how a 'Christian' ought to behave & how the Work of God, His Spirit, does a complete, lasting, irrevocable work in the truly born again person. It is true that when we see a faithful Spirit-filled believer go the distance, never denying the Lord & His Work of Grace in his life, we know that that person has finished his course well. But the teachings & admonitions of the apostles (& of pastors today) were to encourage, warn & assist in spiritual growth & not to face God's Discipline. Those who had not the Spirit of Christ were none of His ( Rom 8:9).