Discuss Hebrews 6 Page 2

Jimbob,

I would respectfully ask you again.

What is man's condition before we have become saved?

What does it mean to become saved, i.e. to become Born Again?

How do you understand, for example, Galatians 2:16-21 and similar passages in Romans?

How do TRUE BELIEVERS become apostate and come under the wrath of God if Christ has paid the full penalty demanded by the Law of God for their sins? Is that not double jeopardy?

If we hold a gospel that is CONDITIONAL upon something we do or do not do, is that not a gospel of grace plus works. In other words are you not saying "Christ has done His part and now its up to us"?

Are these not questions that you must face if you hold a gospel where we can lose our salvation.

And yes, the ETERNAL CHURCH spoken of in the Bible is made up of ALL TRUE BELIEVERS throughout history. And that church cannot become apostate. But every local church and congregation, just like National Israel of the Old Testament, has NOT been made up of ALL true believers and that is the church that becomes apostate, as had National Israel by the time of the Cross.

GIGI,

Let me say right up front that it is not our job to decide who can or has become saved and who might not have. That is God's business not our business. Just like God's Elective program is God's business not ours. And God did not elect any one to salvation because they were in any way righteous. We are ALL by nature dirty rotten sinners deserving of the wrath of God because of our rebellion against Him. It is only by God's Mercy that anyone becomes saved and if we have or do become saved it is because God chose us, paid the full penalty for our sins required by the Law of God, then applied that salvation to us at some time during our life when we become Born Again, and He adopts us and makes us His child, and much more.

This is a salvation that is guaranteed to be accomplished in the life of every one of God's elect and cannot be lost. God may save us in the womb, like John the Baptist. Or He may save us in the last moments of our Life, like the thief on the cross. Or we may be like Paul with a knowledge of the scripture but still unsaved until Acts 9. And this is a salvation that CANNOT be lost because "God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure" ( Phil 2:13).

The Bible is clear that our salvation in no way depends upon anything that we do. Salvation is 100% the work of God alone. Our faith, our "good works", our endurance and much more are the RESULT of our salvation, NEVER THE CAUSE. Read Ezekiel 36, read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, read the whole Bible because everything in the Bible relates in some way to God's Judgement and Salvation Program.

No matter how sinful or rebellious we have been, no matter how many times we have rejected the Gospel, as long as we are still living, up until the Last Day, we may still be one of God's Elect, we may still cry out to God for His Mercy in the very real hope that God might save us. Just like the Ninevites did when Jonah preached a message of Judgement to them.

Psalm 34:18

Psalm 51:17

David0921

David you said yesterday in one of your comments "I am personally convinced that we are in the period of the Great Tribulation".

Today you said "2 Thes 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy".

So wouldn't that be happening right now?

The Word of God tells us that True Believers are the church!

No offence David but it seems you are contradicting yourself here.

My last comment showing the (falling away) in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) to be True Believers is accurate Biblically. If we allow the Word of God to interpret itself, then we will be led into all Truth! If we try to interpret the Word of God ourselves, then very often we get confusion, and deception which can cause our understanding of other parts of Scripture to be misinterpretation, and deception.

Then many are deceiving themselves, and others, often without even knowing it.

Truth matters David. Without an open mind we cannot be led by the Holy Spirit.

Thank you or your reply.

Blessings.

Amen. Thanks for your kind words, GiGi. I still check what's being discussed periodically but have just been busy and haven't posted as much lately. There is a season for everything. I hope you are doing well and in good health.

Always good to hear from you, Adam.

I have often heard from those who hold to a "once saved always saved" doctrinal position that those who fall away were never saved to begin with.

I wonder if they have ever told someone who falls away that they were never saved before falling away even though the person has called on the name of the Lord for salvation and professed faith in Jesus for salvation.

Such an approach towards people who fall away reflects doubt in Gid and His promises to save those who put their faith in Him and in His Son, Jesus. How can one be sure that they are saved if they may fall into a backslidden condition at any time and then be told that they were never saved to begin with? This is a very cruel way to address those believers who turn from Jesus. We do know if God will turn them back to Him at some time in the future.

We should encourage every believer to trust what God has promised in Scripture about believing on Jesus for salvation. We should never cast doubt on the veracity of what the Scriptures tell us on how we are saved-by faith in Jesus. Those we know who have turned away from the faith given to them by the Holy Spirit need to be encouraged to repent and return to Jesus, not tell them that their conversion was never real or valid.

Thank you for giving a balanced accounting of what the Scriptures actually say concerning salvation, assurance of salvation, and the possibility of true believers falling away from faith. The Scriptures do speak about both the reliability of the saving work of God in a person and also that one who has received this salvation can be preserved in faith by God AND also can fall awayfrom Christ by their own englect of their faith or some trial that sorely tests their faith unto apostasy.

As believers we are to guard our faith and to pray to endure unto the end. We are to treat those who 's faith has been sorely weakened with compassion and true concern for them to return to Christ. He seeks the lost.

Hi Adam, good to hear from you I was wondering how you are doing since you haven't posted for a while.

Thanks for these verses about enduring in faith until the end. From these we can know that there is an enemy who wishes to undo us in regards to our faith in our Lord. But we have the Holy Spirit in us to strengthen us in faith and empower us to endure. Thank God for this!

But these exhortations tell us that we should not be lax in our walk with God nor take everything lightly when it comes to our relationship with Him. We should be on guard against the schemes of the enemy, the draw of worldliness, and the deceitfulness o our own hearts due to the sinful nature that must be crucified daily.

The Bible speaks of believers falling away from Christ. We should be diligent for ourselves and watchful of other brethren to help them when they are wavering in faith. The gospel is always in season to hear for ourselves and for those we know who are in doubt concerning their salvation and on the verge of turning away from Christ

Again, Adam, so good to hear from you.

Here's some scripture- this is what really matters:

Rev 14:11-12 - this draws a distinction between people burning in hell and people of God (Christians) who "keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" Those who are inbetween or lukewarm are rejected and won't be saved: Rev 3:16.

Why would the verse say "remain faithful to Jesus" if they are already "saved" people of God? That is conditional. If people chose to not be faithful to Jesus overall they probably aren't people of God.

Rev 13:8 everyone on earth will worship the beast and will burn in hell for eternity according to Rev 14:11.

Rev 2:23. Jesus will repay each according to your deeds.

Rev 2:25. Hold on to the teachings you have until Jesus comes.

Rev 2:5 talks about falling away from the faith- they need to repent.

Rev 1:8 Jesus is the Lord God.

Jude 1:20 Building yourself up in faith. Suggests that building up and keeping the faith takes effort and practice like a muscle.

The scripture is clear what it means. It is the truth. What some people are saying is not the truth and not based on scripture. Beware of that.

Jimbob,

2 Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the situation that is occurring during the Great Tribulation within the churches and congregations prior to the return of Christ when God's judgment has fallen upon the churches because of their apostasy. ( 1Pet 4:17)

2 Thessalonians 2:3,4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The "man of sin" is Satan himself. And 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about the general condition within the churches where the Bible is no longer the ultimate authority. It is NOT talking about True Believers "falling away" in any sense. In fact True Believes are commanded to flee the churches during the time of the Great Tribulation. (Read Matt 24 and Mark 13).

The reason you and I are understanding the verses you quote differently is that we we have a very different understanding of what the Bible teaches about the Nature of Salvation itself and what it means to be "saved", i.e. to become Born Again.

I have tried to be clear what I believe regarding this and have quoted a few of the many verses that teach this.

Perhaps you might explain your understanding of some of the important aspects of Salvation.

What is our condition before God "saves" us and what does it mean to be "saved", i.e. Born Again?

Good morning Adam,

If you read over my comments in this thread and others, including the scripture passages quoted, I think you will find my understanding on some of what the Bible teaches regarding God's Judgement for sin, the Nature of God's Salvation Program, and the sequence of end time events. And most important, the authority of the Bible and how God declares we should approach and interpret His Word.

Much of my understanding is different than what you are suggesting here and in some of your past comments I have read.

Rather than repeat all that here, I'm happy to address my understanding, or lack thereof, of any specific scriptures you wish to discuss.

May God in His Mercy lead us into truth as we continue to read and study His Word, the Bible.

I have heard that argument many times where someone says anyone who turns from Christianity was suddenly "never a Christian in the first place" but the problem with that argument is it goes against what the Bible says and observable reality. So, a Christian pastor who served for 40 years and falls out of the faith suddenly "never was a Christian" even though he was for 40 years? Is it a miracle that works retroactively that one day a Christian was not a Christian in the past? Then if the fallen away Christian comes back to follow Christ again does it then erase the 40 years of "never was a Christian" where he now was a Christian again? These rules seem make believe and not reality.

My next question then is so if you believe there are many Christians who are serving in the most prominent positions (such as pastors and worship leaders) whom you claim could have never been Christians, that means you think many potential Christians today are not Christians. So, how do you know who is a Christian then? Are you a Christian? What criteria makes someone a Christian or not?

If someone says a sinners prayer after a message and responds and chooses to follow Jesus is that person not a Christian? If he is, then how would he be a Christian, but a Christian pastor who in the future may stumble currently isn't?

As some shared above for every verse that says "I will never blot you out" of the book of life, etc, there's at least double warning about staying on course and to not fall away. So, judging my sheer quantity of scripture, it heavily sides with that, yes, people can fall away. Most of Paul's letters were to churches (Christians) warning them.

Now I must ask WHEN exactly do you believe you are "saved" from hell? Before or after the day of judgment?

God bless.

David0921 thank you for your reply.

You said "Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect".

I truly believe ( 2 Thessalonians. 2:3) disproves that statement David, If not then please show me where this is wrong.

The words (falling away) are #646 in Greek; it means defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] forsake, divorce,

(writing of) divorcement.

This verse is proof that those who are ((falling away)) was True Believers in Jesus Christ.

How else would you explain their receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ?

How else would you explain the "[apostasy"]?

Or the falling away from the truth?

(falling away) is a defection from truth?

Jesus Christ is the truth ( Jn. 14:6) They fall away from Jesus Christ.

["apostasy"] means ((An abandonment of what one has professed, a total desertion, or departure from one's faith, a total abandonment of the Christian faith)) which brings about them receiving a (writing of) divorcement from Jesus Christ.

Those who fall away in ( 2 Thess. 2:3) ((were)) True Believers in Jesus Christ.

Blessings.

Jimbob,

Someone who falls away and remains in that state was never saved in the first place and was not one of God's elect.

There are many passages in the Bible that implore us to " Examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith". And "to make are calling and election sure". And if we are one of God's elect, we will ultimately do just that by crying to God for mercy that he might save us. This includes those that may have come under the hearing of the gospel, and may have given some outward evidence of salvation, but had never become saved.

If we have a gospel where we can take some action to lose our salvation, then we have a gospel of works. And that gospel will never save us. And it is not the gospel of the Bible. Read carefully the passages that I quoted. And there are many others.

David0921

Thank you for the reply, but you didn't explain that verse. Here's a few more if you would like to try to explain them.

(1) ( Deut. 9:13-14) v14 The LORD says "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they".

(2) ( Rev. 3:3-5) v5 "and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life".

(3) ( Heb. 3:6) "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, ((if)) we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end".

(4) ( James. 2:14-18) v14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? v15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food. v16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? v17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. v18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

(5) ( 2 Pet. 2:20-22) v20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. v21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. v22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb. The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

(6) ( 2 Thess. 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a ((falling away)) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Jimbob,

Galatians 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ezekiel 36:24-29

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jude 1:24, 25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The true gospel of the Bible is a gospel where God does 100% of the work in saving us and our works cannot and do not contribute to our salvation in any way whatsoever.

If we have become saved it is because God has chosen us, paid for our sins, drawn us, and saved us. And He will therefore KEEP us.

If we are following a gospel where we can lose our salvation, we are not following the gospel of the Bible.

David0921 Thank you for your comment on this post.

I'll keep this short.

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. ( Ps. 69:28)

The word (blotted) is #4229; it means to erase, abolish, blot out, destroy, utterly, wipe (away, out)

People are blotted out of the book of the living! This sounds like they are ((loosing)) salvation that they did have, does it not?

Please explain this verse?

Jimbob,

Hebrews 6:4 is NOT suggesting that someone whom God has "saved" can lose their salvation. That conclusion is a perfect example that demonstrates how important it is that in arriving at any conclusion, we MUST compare spiritual things with spiritual. And we MUST NOT isolate any verse or passage from the rest of the Bible.

When we look at everything in the Bible that speaks about the Nature of Salvation, God teaches that salvation is 100% the work of God Himself.

All of mankind because of Adam's sin is DEAD in sin and CANNOT and WILL NOT turn to God. We are by nature in rebellion against God, both in body and soul. Every time we commit sin we are breaking the Law of God for which the penalty is eternal death. And we come under the Wrath of God. But that is not the end of the story.

God in His incomprehensible MERCY has chosen a remnant, the Elect, from before the foundation of the world to save. This required that God in the person of the LORD Jesus Christ to take upon Himself every dirty rotten sin that His Elect would ever commit and bear the penalty for their sin, the wrath of God, eternal death, and then be raised again to eternal life. All of this was actually done before God ever created the world.

When God "saves" one of His Elect, He performs a very real miracle of giving them a brand new resurrected soul which can never die and which can never sin and God will complete their salvation by giving them their resurrected spiritual body at the Last Day.

God's elective program is God's business. But one whom God has "saved" will not fall away and continue in unbelief. We CANNOT lose our salvation.

No matter how sinful or rebellious we have been or are now, it is still the day of salvation and we may cry out to God in the very real hope that God might save us. Read Jonah 3. Read Ezekiel 36.

I believe that Hebrews 6 is not talking about individuals. It is talking about the churches of our day that have become apostate. 1 Pet 4:17

Hi Digjot;

Yes, I am doing well.

Keep your spirit up for God truly is in control of this world and of history. Compared to our eternal life with Christ , this mortal life is really very short. God will give us strength to endure and comfort in times of trials. He will guide us through evil times and cause us to rejoice in Him.

Hope to here from you often, Dgjot.

Thank You, Gigi. God bless you. I hope you are well.

Dgjot It would seem to me that your post is proof that once saved always saved is only a theory. Many will (fall away) in the Lastdays ( 2 Thess. 2:3) The word (falling) is defection from truth (properly the state) ["apostasy"] divorce, (writing of divorcement).

This would have to be True Believers falling away for it to say ["apostasy"] divorce, and (writing of divorcement).

Thank you for your post.

God Bless.

Usually; when we look to scriptures on God's promises; we are looking for His Providence in our individual needs and concerns such as finding a spouse; providing food; clothing and shelter and those basic salvation assurances such as John 3:16 which we have as an anchor to our soul; to quote Hebrews 6:19. We also look to heaven and being reunited with our loved ones; hopefully realizing that only those in Christ will have an eternal future which we would desire to share as 1 Corinthians 15 starting in verse 14 assures us of as a future reality.

Admittedly; there aren't a lot of specific verses as to what exactly we will be doing in the Millennium and eternity. I have elaborated on rewards involving ruling over more or less cities in regard to our faithfulness now; as well the scripture about David once again ruling as co-regent under Christ (see Jeremiah 30:9). The Levites are said to have some sort of role at least in the Millennium; with sacrifices in a new temple mentioned in the last few chapters of Ezekiel.

Perhaps studying Israel as a Theocracy in the past (although certainly not a perfect example) gives us some idea how we will rule and reign with Christ ( Rev. 2:26-27 but also somewhere in the O.T. mentioned as well). Isaiah 66:19-20 shows what the physical survivors will do after Armageddon in reaching distant places gathering them for worship in Jerusalem.

As Resurrected Saints interacting with earthly people; we may need to be in charge of ensuring that ceremonial purification occurs so that those in our presence not to mention in the presence of Christ won't die because of some impurity. It is hard to say how our roles will work with those who are in physical bodies still doing some sort of Temple ritual. We also will probably work out disputes; perhaps initally as a sort of cleanup crew (again with the physical survivors) after the Ezekiel 38 war (likely part of the campaign related to Armageddon).

Hello Dgjot,

Haven't heard from you for awhile. Welcome back on here.

This Scripture in Hebrews is difficult in respects to the danger to those who have turned from Jesus after once walking with Him. Hell is real and the destination of all who are not in Christ Jesus-even some we know and love. How much we should pray that our own faith will endure to the end and that of those we know as believers. How much we ought to pray for all whom we know who are non believers. We pray for God to provide many opportunities for us to share the gospel. There is much need amid all the evil we see and know about. So much more we do not see and know about. But God knows all and is ever working to draw people into this life of faith in Jesus.

Hebrews 6:

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened"....."If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance".

Don't these people realize that they spit in the face of Jesus and threw away their salvation???? There's no 2nd chance for them. Many false preachers/deceivers are in the world, teaching non-Biblical nonsense. I see billions of people sliding down a greased pole to hell.

I cringe whenever I hear of "Christians" who ditched Jesus in favor of Islam, or any other "religion".



Matthew 17:5

"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which (God) said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."



Christians get a bad rap. They are commissioned to spread the Word that only Jesus can save humans from their sins. Christians try to warn others that if they don't repent of their sins and seek Jesus, they will go to hell.

As a Christian (but not a very good one) I'm so sick of the wicked and their in-your-face debauchery. Christians are accused of being controlling, hypocritical and hateful. It's so disheartening and exhausting to try to talk to these people. Should I grieve for anyone who knowingly rejects Jesus and dies in their sins??? I'm sure God and Jesus are broken hearted. Somewhere people got the idea that Hell will be one big party. NOT!

Dear all, you are dearly loved by the Lord Jesus Christ and have fellowship with Him by the Holy Spirit. and in Him we are brothers and sisters and family with God Himself. Never forget that on your walk here on Earth. There will come a day Revelation 20:11 which we would like to have a discussion about. That day will be a weird day. Here is plain text. But now brothers and sisters are here on Earth and we are witnesses to everyone we meet, right? Even though we long for Home, we know that the time will come when we will be allowed home. Thanks be to God and have all the praise for our work.



I woke up this morning singing to the Lord in my mouth and heart. It must have been a beautiful dream of peace and of the Lord Himself! May worship be with me all day, I pray, Amen. Then I opened the Bible in Hebrews 6:1 reading the beautiful words probably Paul has written, influenced, inspired by the Lord Himself. And as so many Christians struggle with. In the New Testament they are put together as a common thread. So we WILL understand them eventually.

The words you read here are to be read in the Spirit of revelation and wisdom so that you find out for yourselves what the rest of the words and sets in the chapter are about, is the truth we are searching for. The truth we can testify to for hungry people outside the scheme. And we are also starving for God. He will give us both food and water that live and that will go into the eternal dwellings! Go out in peace everyone and know that you are the bearer of a light, a truth, a love like no other on this planet. And it/are will last forever. Amen

Stay close to Him and His word. For remember we shall search and seek, and we shall find. And we must seek more to not be deprived of what we have. When we have received much from the Lord, He will give us more. All in His Glory, Hallelujah Amen. Love u all in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:4-6-- Jesus isn't gonna come die again. The scripture says it's impossible to be renewed if fallen away After receiving Jesus Then killing him again. This is a horrible scripture to think upon. Help us LORD that those you have called be chosen also.

The root of the idea that one can lose his salvation is a works based salvation.

This suggests the covenant is made by God "and you".

" God would multiply Abraham's seed by one coming whom the Gentiles will trust and when he gets here you have a role to play to initiate it."

This idea puts us in bondage!

Galatians 4:23-28

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Hebrews 6:17-19.

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

WHICH HOPE WE HAVE AS AN ANCHOR OF THE SOUL, BOTH SURE AND STEADFAST, and which entereth into that within the veil.

UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT.

Genesis 15:2-12.

God performs the ritual for the covenant alone,.

That makes it unconditional.

The promise has an inheritance.

A city made without hands! Hebrews 11:9-10.

The birth of Issac was the result of Gods faithfulness

Abraham couldn't do anything to void it. Abraham believed God!

We're children of promise and there is nothing we can do to void it.

This promise is given to those who believe.

God bless and good night.

Pt 1

Hello Jesse

I had decided not to participate any more in discussions we have all had before about "secured or not salvation", but at the end it seems I can not avoid it.

About the grk HUPOMENO and HUPOMEINAS.

HUPOMENO is a verb of the first person, its complete form is "ego hupomeno", it means "I endure", (as you know in grk when speaking the personal pronoun is ommited since from the ending of the verb it is known to whom it is reffered).

HUPOMENON is a noun, it means "the one who endures, an endurer".

HUPOMEINAS is the same as above but it refers to the past, i.e. "the one who endured", I don't think there is a respective single word in Eng.

[Pronountiation in mod grk (if you are interested), the "h" is not pronounced, and the "u" is pron. as "ee". So it is "ee-poh-meh-noh", stressed at "meh". Always have in mind that syllables in grk usually are of the form conson-vowel, not conson-vowel-conson, neither vowel-conson. as in Eng. Also vowels are clear front mouth vowels. That will help you a lot when pronouncing grk words.]

So lets go to Mark 13:13, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.". I don't really understand how you come to understand that verse the way you do. To me it is obvious that it says exactly how it sounds, that the one who endured those tribulations (Jesus speaks as if He sees those events after they happened, that is why He uses the past tense) he WILL be saved.

Similarly James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he SHALL receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him". How do you understand this verse? It is like running a road, of say 10 miles, if one finishes then one receives a crown.

Hebrews 6:15, "And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he obtained the promise"

Rom 11:22, "...but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

STU I hear ya...Thats y Jesus was born for us sinners....He is our savior....Jesus is exactly what we sinners need...That New Heart and New spirit...A new innerman...The H.G....Thats y he said if i be lifted up i will draw all men unto me...And that great Promise was that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven...Thats y the sower of that good seed wants to sow his precious seed in our hearts..That we might birth a baby Christ the H.G..That Child of Promise...That we might be bornagain of his incorruptible seed which is that living word....Making humanity incorruptible..Resulting in an Israel of God which are spirits that are gonna be born in us sinners via his seed....Thats y he has to know us...Thats y they refer to Jesus as the bridegroom he wants to sow his seed in our hearts...Thus there is a baby christ in our future...Which is the H.G. That Child of Promise....And in Rev 12 :10 the Kingdom comes after the woman births the manchild which is the H.G the Kingdom...The Kingdom of God is not in meat or drink but in joy and peace in the H.G. Romans 14:17...Thats y Jesus was saying unless you receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in...The reason we refer to the H.G. as the Promise is B/C the H.G. is the multiplication of JESUS IN US SINNERS VIA HIS PRECIOUS SEED the word....That was the great Promise that Christ wd be multiplied as the stars of heaven in us sinners via his seed ....God so loved the world implying humanity...And God was so passionate about this Promise of multiplication that he swore by his very self....in Hebrews 6:13...Thats y Jesus was saying to whom the word came it made them Gods...And the scripture cannot be broken...Thus we will be married to God making us 1 with God.... Isaiah 62:5...As a young man marries a virgin so shall thy God rejoice over you...ok Gbu

Dear CSmith925, according to Hebrews 6:4-8, if one has truly been born-again and tasted some of its comforts, it is impossible for them to be forgiven. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but because the very nature of this sin is opposite to repentence and everything that leads to it. To wit: when we are saved we repent of our sins, but when we fall away into final apostasy we repent from Christ.

Living in the Spirit (part 4).

Growth can and indeed will occur with good soil and the implanted seed of the Spirit. When we sow with tears we reap with joy ( Psalm 126:5-6). Indeed; these verses show us that the harvest is present with us and surely is our reward for effective service (see also Hebrews 6:10; Isaiah 55:10-11). Just as our walk in Christ isn't just a spectator sport; our participation isn't merely an individual source of growth; but mutually edifying for the body. That is how spiritual gifts are to be properly practiced (see 1 Cor. 12 starting in verse 4).

We should therefore rejoice when others rejoice; weep when others weep ( Philippians 4:4). This explains why it is often better to be in the house of mourning than feasting ( Ecclesiastes 7:2-4). I am not one to argue whether Christ had a sense of humor; but will state that it is better to refrain from jokes if there is any uncertainty and certainly from "course jesting" ( Eph. 5:3-4).

God is steadfast and unchanging; unlike the vicissitudes of the human heart. Stability comes from a well grounded faith and walking in the Spirit as our "sure foundation and anchor of our soul" ( Heb. 6:19).

Patience being one of the fruits of the Spirit especially today is; in my opinion underrated as to its value. Just a brief survey of Bible characters shows how many things took time to completion; whether with Abraham's wanderings and progeny; Moses' deliverance; Joseph's prominance; and David's ascension to the throne. In fact too much success too quickly was a factor in Solomon's fall despite God warning him not to multiply gold and horses as well as foreign wives. This is the real issue with the "prosperity gospel" as surely God as well as Satan can be the facilitator of worldly gain (as well as efforts from hard work). It is the pride and comfort in our possessions which bring a man down (see Luke 12:16-21). It also makes rich people give a disporportionally low percentage vs the poor

Hi Papawj

Hebrews 6:6,

"If they shall fall away, (it is impossible) to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Pay attention to that "it is impossible to renew them unto repentance". This obviously is not you, is it? People that fit to that verse never worry about things they do, they don't feel any sort of guilt, they would never repent. So stop worrying, you have been forgiven. Remember the prodigal son, his father was always waiting for him to come back and was ready to give him his previous place in the house. GBU