Discuss James 2 Page 14

I believe that many Christians truly love God. What I don't understand is why most Christians believe that the Sabbath is done away with or that it is Sunday. The other nine commandments are fine, so why omit this one that identifies God as creator, Lord and owner of the universe? The idea that we are no longer under law just does not cut it. No society, nothing in nature, nothing mechanic can operate without laws.Without law there would be no grace . Therefore if someone were to say we are no longer under law, how do we get grace? The Law! If you are speeding on the road and is stopped by an officer to get a ticket, it is because you have broken the law. If you beg or he decides to give you a chance this time, that's grace, based on him giving you a chance because you broke the law. Some texts to consider

Romans 3: 31

Romans 6:15

Romans 7:7

Exudos 20: 8-11

James 2:10

Revelations 22:14

For more information about how Sabbath worship was changed to Sunday, visit the Roman Catholic website. God bless you dear reader.

What is considered as works? In James 2:14-26 it says that faith without works is dead. What can I do that's counted as works? If this is already told in the Bible, then please tell me the verses. I have not read the entire Bible yet.

Hi Earl,

I believe the opposite of what you stated, because of what I see in the scriptures. God forgiving our sin and cleaning us is different than claiming someone cannot sin- that it's impossible. That's a logical leap into a whole different territory in which there's a mountain of scripture warning us against sin (including Christians) and no scriptures saying it's impossible for us to sin. It's also different than God 'not seeing sin' due to grace covering us as long as we're following Christ (a Christian). The old testament verses above do not mean someone cannot sin. If no one can sin, what's the point of asking for forgiveness? If no one can sin, what's the point of avoiding sin and striving to be perfect like Jesus said? If no one can sin, what's the point of spreading the gospel? If no one can sin, then you can ignore the Bible and just follow the world and do whatever sin you want with no consequence? The Bible already said that's not the case. Paul wrote about his fleshly struggles to sin- if there was no sin would it make sense that he would write that? If no sin, does that mean you can't blaspheme the holy spirit, either? Why would Jesus preach and challenge his followers with all these instructions if they couldn't sin and their actions were irrelevant. Satan is the father of lies and one of these teachings is truth and one is a lie. They are not both true. So, if satan was going to deceive someone is it likely they would deceive someone into being 'gooder' than they need to be or to be 'badder'- to convince them it's ok to sin, that you will surely 'not' be punished for it. To me that sounds like the same being behind the 1st temptation in the garden of eden- the father of lies is always not far away from any false teaching. Once saved, always saved is another teaching people often distort in order to justify sinning and blaspheming against God.

Here's what the Bible actually says:

James 2:17

Romans 6:15

Hebrews 10:26

Rom 7:22

Matthew 7:21

John 14:15

Matt 5:13

Matthew 7:26-27

Eph 5:5-6

Rom 11:19-23

God bless...

"So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 212

How to understand " the law of liberty."

Romans 3:31 is a great verse but looking at what Paul said earlier, i.e. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" (3:20-22).

A few things here: Paul was speaking to all there (both Jew & Gentile converts) yet some stumbled on this matter, particularly from Jewry who were once under the Law & were circumcised, which marked them as God's chosen. To those still applying the Law to their lives & putting themselves under it, are obliged to keep all the Law ( Galatians 5:3). And "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." ( James 2:10). But the Law was given to Israel, not only as God's Standard of living for them, but to show them that they couldn't keep the Law, rather they fell far short of it. Hence, each year animal sacrifice was made to cover those sins. But after Jesus' death & resurrection, those who come by faith to Him are no longer bound to the Law, as God's Gift to us was the only One to have fully kept (& fulfilled) its Holy demands.

So Paul makes a clear distinction: either you keep the whole Law & by it you will be judged: "as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" ( Romans 2:12), or you take hold of God's Righteousness which comes by faith in Christ. There's no possibility of fusing the two together for they oppose each other. "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" ( Galatians 5:4). So the observance of the Sabbath day was a hallmark of Israel & they faithfully observed it. To make the Sabbath observance mandatory now means that we are no longer in the liberty of Christ but in bondage ( Galatians 5:1).

Psalm 22

Isaiah 53

Mathew 26:2 Mathew 26:14-16 Mathew 26:21 Mathew 26:31 Mathew 26:47-50

John 15:15

James 2:22-23

John 8:39-40

Hope this helps your question.

Hi Ed,

What do you think of James 2:17? Do you think those are in agreement with your opinion, because it seems to say that faith alone isn't enough, does it not?

Here's some others like it; what's your take on these?

Romans 6:15

Hebrews 10:26

Rom 7:22

Matthew 7:21

John 14:15

Matt 5:13

Matthew 7:26-27

For example, I'd love to have premarital sex tonight, but I haven't before because I read in the Bible that it's a sin of fornication. So, if I follow your advice, since you say all future sins are forgiven, does that mean I can go ahead and have premarital sex tonight without any consequence from God?

James 2 v 18, 19, 20

Revelation 22 v 12

Are not demons fallen angels? Wouldn'st they be well acquainted with Heaven and Its Holiness?

Bendito Palavra

Concerning the Law;

The everlasting Law God established with those that desire to be called His children still stands.

The 10 Commandments still stand.

Any time we sin we are under the Law.

Everyone sins: Everyday!

Blood ordinances were fulfilled by the death of Christ ( Matthew 26:28, Romans 2:29, Colossians 1:14)

Priestly duties connected to the sons of Aaron were fulfilled in Christ. ( Hebrews 8:1)

The Temple was destroyed; as promised: ( Matthew 24:2)

Deuteronomy 29:29

"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children FOR EVER, that we may do all the words of this law."

1 Chronicles 16:17

"And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an EVERLASTING covenant,"

Ephesians 2:15

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"

Hebrews 7:12

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

Matthew 27:51

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"

All has not been fulfilled.

All will not be fulfilled until the return of Christ.

Believe the words of Jesus.

Mathew 5:18

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Concerning works;

Why would Jesus care to evaluate the WORKS of the churches that are on earth at the end times when He comes back if they don't matter? ( Revelation 2:2, 9, 13, 19. 3:1, 3:8, 3:15)

Also look at:

James 2:14-26 - "Faith without works is dead"

Revelation 14:13

Revelation 20:12

Verse 19 shows that the demons believe in God. All of this knowledge didn't keep them faithful to God so we must go beyond just believing.

The curtain being torn meant that you did not need the earthly high priest to go to the throne of grace on your behalf. The Sanctuary was not for worshipping but for the atonement of sins. The priest was the mediator using the lamb's blood for atonement. But after Christ died, He become our High Priest not using a lamb's blood, but His own. This meant that the earthly sanctuary system had been abolished.

The Sabbath day was to let us rest and to remind us that God created all that is. Christ observed this day, Luke 4:16.

Paul who came after the curtain was torn, kept the Sabbath, Acts 13:14,42-44, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4. No where in the Bible is the Sabbath abolished.

Read James 2:8-11.

Jesse,

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I believe that we are then given information concerning when the Holy Spirit might speak through us as well as how we are to prepare for it in Mark 13:11

"But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

I believe this applies specifically to the end times, but it can also be applied in a general way to the trials and tribulations a person endures throughout their own life, and their desire, or lack thereof, to seek Jesus; similar, in a sense, to your point of view.

Persecution of God's people has never ended since the Fall of Adam. There is, thank God, only one Great Tribulation for mankind to have to go through.

Concerning your understanding of Greek, I am sorry if I sounded condescending. Being zealous has never seemed to help my cause, nor has my built in northeast sarcasm.

Concerning Judas, (and for anyone for that matter), I would rather error on the side of the power of repentance and forgiveness, and again lean on Scripture concerning him being sorry for his actions and taking steps to repair the offence ( Matthew 27:3)

If I am able to make up for an error against my neighbor, I hope that I would make every effort to do so while I am still in this mortal body. James 2:14-26, Revelation 14:13, etc.

Thanks again Jesse for your time.

Stephende, I actually was one of those who, on the 25th October 1979, cried out "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus". I had come to see the greatness of my sins before God, by a deep intrusion into my heart by God's Spirit. It was a miracle in a moment: the burden of my sins was removed when I cried out in repentance & instantly the Peace of God from His forgiveness flooded my soul. It was a great personal transaction that can never be forgotten.

Yes, I was born again by God's Spirit; if that is 'an empty cliche' to you, it has been to me, the very source of bringing a worthless, hell-bound sinner to understand the greatness of God Love & His eternal Plan to restore mankind to Himself.

"What the Law (as perfect & Holy as it was) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3,4.

It is wonderful to read of your love & obedience to God. And do you obey Him fully? Remembering: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10. If that is you & your perfection is that which is attributed to God & His Christ, it is true, you have no need of such 'empty cliches' & you're Heaven-bound. However, I would say, for the rest of us, we would need His Sacrifice desperately as we could never keep His Laws & satisfy His Demands perfectly. To that end, God sent His only begotten Son into this World, for our sake & for our redemption through the shedding of His Blood. What the blood of bulls & goats couldn't do for Israel, Jesus Christ's Blood fully did for the sins of both Jew & Gentile alike. Keep reading His Word: Light & Truth are its blessings for all with a singular heart for God.

Chris,

I appreciate your feedback concerning the Seventh Day.

In considering the other side of the teaching that you presented, I will respond below.

The Seventh day was declared by God BEFORE He chose Israel. This Law was established for ALL to obey and enjoy.

The 10 Commandments are OT LAW, are they abolished?

Do you still follow the 10 Commandments?

Jesus abolished BLOOD Ordinances, and either partially or completely fulfilled OT prophecy concerning His first coming, but Christ did not come to abolish the LAW.

So, then, if a person claims to have FAITH in Jesus but all of his WORKS are evil, where do you think this person ends up? Jesus tells us very plainly ( Matthew 7:23). Looks like FAITH has a lot to do with following the LAW ( Galatians 3:11-12) and with WORKS, ( James 2:17).

The English word "week" is defined from the Greek word meaning "Sabbath" or "day of rest;" also a 7 day period of time.

You state that the Lord God or His only begotten Son changed the holy Sabbath day based upon Scripture (from your understanding of Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, and Revelation 1:10):

"The first day of the week began to be recognized as the Lord's Day and that the Church began worshipping on that day"

Acts 20:7, concerns the first day of the Sabbath in reckoning the 7 Sabbaths to Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 16:2 has to do with preparation (work) for when Paul returns.

Revelation 1:10 concerns John being taken "in the spirit" to the great and dreadful "day of the Lord" or the "Lord's day"

when the Messiah shall return, and John is given testimony in relation to that. (Not Sunday!)

None of these Scriptures you offer give authorization to change the Sabbath day from the SEVENTH DAY to the FIRST DAY of the week.

Christ FORETOLD US EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW. God did not give us instruction to change the Sabbath, neither did Jesus, nor did the Prophets and Apostles.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Alan, I wasn't able to receive all your comments sent under "Satisfaction Theories". You wrote about Anselm & that comment didn't finish off completely, as well as no further comment on Calvin & Aquinas. I'm not sure that I am adequately qualified to comment too deeply on anything you put forward as I haven't studied this matter to any great depth; just having a general understanding of our sin nature, God's View of our corruption, the extent of it & separation from Him, our inability to rectify matters & His involvement to adequately & eternally deal with it so that His punishment no longer bears upon us. I had simply responded to your initial question: "What did the early church (Before Augustine) believe?" I saw that as a general enquiry, hence my response, rather than a question to lead into a more in-depth analysis of the matter. However, thank you for your comments - they have been very interesting thus far.

By the time Augustine came on the scene, Western church fathers had departed from the theology of sin of the Eastern Church, with one exception; they still held to the notion of human free will and responsibility. Augustine was quick to pounce on this awkward combination of ideas his western predecessors had left behind; namely, involuntary inherited sinfulness coupled with free choice. In 395 CE he wrote, "We have all become one lump of clay, that is, a lump of sinwe as sinners deserve nothing other than eternal damnation" (74). A few years later, in 397 CE he first "uses the epoc-making phrase, 'original sin' for the first time in the history of Christian thought" (74).

Satisfaction Theories

Satisfaction theories start from the idea that human sin constitutes a grave offense against God, the magnitude of which renders forgiveness and reconciliation morally impossible unless something is done either to satisfy the demands of justice or to compensate God for the wrong done to him. These theories go on to note that human beings are absolutely incapable on their own of compensating God for the wrong they have done to him, and that the only way for them to satisfy the demands of justice is to suffer death and eternal separation from God. Thus, in order to avoid this fate, they are in dire need of help. Christ, through his death (and, on some versions, through his sinless life as well) has provided that help. The different versions of the satisfaction theory are differentiated by their claims about what sort of help the work of Christ has provided. Here we'll discuss three versions: St. Anselm's debt-cancellation theory, the penal substitution theory defended by John Calvin and many others in the reformed tradition, and the penitential substitution theory, attributed to Thomas Aquinas and defended most recently by Eleonore Stump and Richard Swinburne.

According to Anselm, our sin puts us in a kind of debt toward God. As our creator, God is entitled to our submission and obedience. By sinning, we therefore fail to give God something that we owe him. Thus, we deserve to be punished until we do give God what we owe him. Indeed, on Anselm's view, not only is it just for God to punish us

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Origen (c. 244 AD):

Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given for the remission of sin; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem superfluous. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3)

The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.

Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 AD):

If, in the case of the worst sinners and of those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from Baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin [committed no personal sin], except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old Death from his first being born. (Letters 64:5 of Cyprian and his 66 colleagues in Council to Fidus)

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Here are some excerpts from these early Church fathers. Origen & Cyprian seemed to veer off in relation to baptism & infants.

Irenaeus (c. (late) 100 AD):

Having become disobedient, [Eve] was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith. But this man [of whom I have been speaking] is Adam, if truth be told, the first-formed man. We, however, are all from him; and as we are from him, we have inherited his title [of sin]. Indeed, through the first Adam, we offended God by not observing His command. Through the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, and are made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other except to Him, whose commandment we transgressed at the beginning. (Against Heresies 3:22:4; 3:23:2; 5:16:3)

Tertullian (c. 200 AD)

Finally, in every instance of vexation, contempt, and abhorrence, you pronounce the name of Satan. He it is whom we call the angel of wickedness, the author of every error, the corrupter of the whole world, through whom Man was deceived in the very beginning so that he transgressed the command of God. On account of his transgression Man was given over to death; and the whole human race, which was infected by his seed, was made the transmitter of condemnation. (The Testimony of the Soul 3:2, c. 200 AD).

Augustine (354-430) first shaped the doctrine of original sin,[7][5] seeing it as based on the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle ( Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22) and the Old Testament verse of Psalms 51:5.[8][9][10][11][12] Tertullian (c. 155 - c. 240), Cyprian, Ambrose and Ambrosiaster considered that humanity shares in Adam's sin, transmitted by human generation. Augustine said that free will was weakened but not destroyed by original sin.[5] Augustine's formulation of original sin was popular among Protestant reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated original sin with concupiscence (or "hurtful desire"), affirming that it persisted even after baptism and completely destroyed freedom to do good and proposed that original sin involved a loss of free will except to sin.[13]

My question is. What did the early church (Before Agustine) believe? Clearly, they did not have Augustine's view.

Also, are we saying Jesus was plan B?

Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace we are saved through faith. it is not by faith alone, but by the grace of god and faith in his son that we receive the gift of salvation. by grace, we cannot earn grace. grace is given to us by a loving merciful god. it is freely given, we must only have faith in his word and in his son jesus christ. remember it is by grace through faith. not of works lest any man should boast. but he is telling us that if you truly believe you will also have works.

Original sin is a Bible doctrine, not just Augustine.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Yet ALL does not mean ALL with one exception

Hebrews Chapter 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. WITHOUT SIN Jesus

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

It's not a narrative, but literally what the Bible says is what most Christians believe. Romans 5:12, 1 John 1:8-10, Romans 3:23, Romans 7:18.

Why do you assume Christians have a narrative? Do you believe the Bible?

Original Sin... Original sin is an Augustine Christian doctrine that says that everyone is born sinful. This means that they are born with a built-in urge to do bad things and to disobey God.

Hasn't the West not changed the Christian narrative?

Comment:

Yes there is. No person who has the Holy Spirit in dwelling, can call Jesus accursed.

They cannot call him Lord either. You have to choose now, whom you will believe.

Mark 3:29

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

James 2:7

Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Ephesians 4:3

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Timothy 1:20

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Revelation 13:6

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Mark 3:28

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

Google original sin. Plenty of info there.

Alan, from the reading of Scripture, I would say that the early Church & the present Bible believing Church viewed Christ's salvation, its operation & its application in the very same way. However, there were those in that early Church, Gnostics included, that wanted to corrupt its meaning, to which Paul was pained to address that important issue. And specifically, some would have the keeping of the Law, circumcision & traditions as part & parcel of this new faith. Galatians chapter 2 gives a clear demonstration of Peter's hypocrisy in this matter, to which Paul had to take him 'over the coals', as what Peter was requiring of the Gentiles was in direct conflict with the meaning of the Gospel of Salvation, i.e. that the Cross has set us free from the bindings & consequences of the Law. If then, from your question, "the early Church did not view salvation as the western Church does" is your belief, then if you could provide some evidence of this please?

As well, I did not understand your other question: "where did the doctrine of original sin come from?" If it's not from the Bible ( Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21,22), then I don't know from where else.

Is it true, the early church did not view salvation as the western church does. If that is correct how can we say today faith alone(if that was never heard of in 20AD)

Also, where did the doctrine of original sin come from?

Many thanks.