John
King James Version (KJV)
Discuss John 13 Page 2
Viewing page: 2 of 12
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
You can read in Matthew 26:27 the other disciples asked, :Lord, is it I? Same for Mark 14:19, Luke 22:23. John 13:21-27 gives the most information about the response of the other disciples. But the question of who it might be was quickly shown to be Judas (verse 27).
what does these verses mean to you?
1 john 2:5-6.
but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of god perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
this is a condition exercised by the influence of the lord being in you!!
so this is uniquely performed amongst brothern!!
john 13:34-35.
a new commandment i give unto you, that ye love one another; as i have loved you, that ye also love one another.
( by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.)
this is salvation at work!!
you shall know them by their fruit! matthew 7:13-23.
one can profess to believe in a grace based relationship with christ or even deceive themselves to believing they have a grace relationship with christ but can't display the fruit associated with what they claim to be truth.
this is not christ "in you"
however, there's the spirit of antichrist in th world.
1 john 2:18.
little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
this is why we examine ourselves.
they lack fruit!
1) they hate the brothern.
2)thet dont inwardly have what's mentioned in galatians 5:22-23.
"love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
they that are christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
contrary to fruit is;
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
if we live in the spirit, let us also walk in the spirit.
let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
sadly a part of eschatology that won't last a week.
god bless.
Interestingly, after studying scripture I've noticed, GOD gave mankind dominion, on Earth. Genesis 1:26,27,28, GOD didn't take that dominion away, people have misused their powers. They/we will all give account: Revelation 1:5-8, Romans 14:12, Daniel 4:3,34, Matthew 25:31-46, Matthew 18,
Jesus was here to show us how to bring His Kingdom the Kingdom of GOD on Earth, with Love, John 3:16-21, John 13:34, Romans 12:10, 1John 4:7,12, 1Peter 3:8, John 15:17, James 2:13-17, Luke 13:34,
one day all dominion will go to Christ: 1Corinthians 15:20-28, Romans 16:20,
Galatians 4:1-8, Colossians 3:21,
Matthew 20:25-28, Ephesians 1, (whole chapters) 1Peter 4, Jude 1,
Jesus gave all that believe in him, authority under heaven: from GOD ALMIGHTY: Matthew 28:18-20, Matthew 6, Luke 11, Mark 3:15, Acts 4:30,31, Luke 9:2,
We all have power in the natural if even just to comfort someone else, & as we grow in faith, supernatural power in prayer, through GOD & Christ Jesus our Savior.
Hopefully these are helpful
They have promises therefore of inheriting eternal life and the glories of heaven ( John 14:2).
The cost of being a disciple of course was soon to be revealed; namely in Peter's fall. In Luke 22:32 the word "converted" is used in order to describe what would soon happen. Christ knew all; of course that Peter was one of His own (as He would give nicknames to emphasize characteristics of the Apostles). In John 1:42 Jesus said that he would be called Cephus or the rock; later on in Matthew 16:16 we see that Christ was revealed to Peter as to who He was. Therefore the word converted here would mean to be restored spiritually after the fall; but it showed the effects of true repentance. Peter until this point was impetuous and immature in many ways as a child in his walk; so the meaning here is when Peter's outward behavior would represent a radical transfomation and involved dying to self. This made him ready after the Resurrection to take on what he knew would end up in martyrdom ( John 21:18). It also gave him boldness in the Book of Acts despite a realistic fear of his own persecution.
Let us therefore take heed; that we are slow to speak as well as swift to hear and slow to wrath (mixed up interpretation of James 1:19). We need to look out for false teachers as well; who self identify as believers; but show no evidence of true faith and producing good fruit.
5. Love: Agape-Unconditional. We can't find such a resource in our tool box in our own strength. Go ahead and try and let me know how it works for you. People have; sadly referred to God's love as "reckless"; I will leave out the particular artist that comes to mind with such language...
We are in a feckless world; and the fact that the love of many will grow cold ( Matt. 24:12) certainly extends into the professing church as we see the warning to the Ephesian church ( Rev. 2:4). It is good to be looking for love in the RIGHT places; but sadly many are obsessed with the wrong places; people and situations. In the Body of believers we are commanded to love one another( John 13:34) and of course "they shall know we are Christians by our love (next verse John 13:35). The attributes of love are found in 1 Cor. 13. Our affections need to be grounded there in the fellowship of the saints and our own relationship with the Lord. There are some like myself that I know who have abstained from television for a number of years now. I am living with my parents so watch it sometimes but it is hard to decide when to walk away. Hopefully; we can have a healthy relationship with our cell phone as well as the amount of time on social media or even watching the news. There is much to be avoided with the fear today at epidemic levels; and of course "true love casts out fear." ( 1 John 4:17-18). It is more than for us but for our WITNESS that we avoid having our minds filled with distractions. People will see in our eyes and countenance that we are anchored in Him as Hebrews 6:19 states. We don't need to tell people so much how committed we are they can tell; and let their love or hate for us be dictated by our chastity; and reverence of the Lord Jesus as our Savior and Master.
We are; of course "unworthy servants" ( Luke 17:7-10) along with friends of God ( John 15:15). A healthy balance is good to ponder this upcoming New Year
AMEN
...The life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God..." That is part of Galatians 2:20. His Spirit also testifies with our spirit that we "are children of God" according to Romans 8:16. Scripture cannot be read alone with mental faculties and understood as God's truth unless these realities exist; namely being Born of the Spirit ( John 3:6-8) makes the Word living and active in our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12).
Scriptural truth also is what separates the God of truth and His angels from the fallen angels and demons that are the ruling principalities and powers of this world in this age ( Ephesians 6:12). Thus; we can experience God whether "in or out of the body" ( 2 Corinthians 12:2) as Paul did and by extension a demonic spiritual "trip" can occur much in the same way.
Anyone realistically wanting to understand 2 Corinthians 5:8 on being absent from the body; present with the Lord will understand that being in His presence as a believer is overwhelming to the extent that John fell at His feet as though dead ( Revelation 1:17). This is all the more telling since he was the disciple who always was closest to Jesus and even in his own testimony most loved ( John 13:23 and apparently in 4 other verses).
If we are NOT truly in Christ then there is only the terror of the Lord and of course immediate judgment and condemnation for those who are goats rather than sheep. Thus; those who promote a false gospel even if they were brain dead and came back to life God allows them to continue here for a while for His purposes. It would seem that it is possible as long as a body can be resuscitated for a few minutes that this can occur; that is a far cry from Lazarus being raised from the dead or the Lord Himself.
In any case, anyone preaching a gospel other than the truth let him be "anathema" ( Galatians 1:8); and that includes angels as well. To know we are hearing from God being saved is a minimum requirement.
In Exodus 2:18, we read his name as Reuel & this means "friend of El (God)". This was very likely his given name.
In Exodus 3:1, Jethro (or, Yithro) is from the word, 'Yether', meaning 'his excellence'. So it seems that Jethro is the same person as Reuel, but Reuel was his given name & Jethro may have been a secondary name or honorific title that others might have called him by. As an example from the New Testament, we read of Simon who was also known as Peter ( Matthew 4:18); again known by two names (Simon, Luke 22:31; Peter, Matthew 8:14; Simon Peter, John 13:6).
Then in Numbers 10:29, some believe that Hobab is yet another name for Reuel/Jethro, adding to the confusion, and so several opinions have been given to interpret that 'anomaly'. However, I see it simply as: that Hobab was Reuel's (or Raguel's) son, as Raguel (Reuel) was Moses' father-in-law. This type of family tree descriptions can also be found in many other passages, including 1 Chronicles 5:14, Nehemiah 11:7.
a. His Names: Hebrews 1:8, John 20:28 (God); Matthew 16:16, Matthew 26:61-65 (the Son of God); Matthew 22:41-46 (Lord); Revelation 19:13 (Word of God); Revelation 19:16 (King of kings and Lord of lords).
b. His Characteristics: Matthew 28:18 (Omnipotence: all powerful); Luke 6:8, John 2:24,25, John 13:11 (Omniscience: all knowing); Matthew 18:20 (Omnipresence: present in any place); John 1:4 (Life); John 14:6 (Truth); Hebrews 13:8 (Immutability: unchanging); 1 Timothy 3:16, John 1:1-14 (God manifest in the flesh in Jesus).
c. His Works: John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 (creates); Colossians 1:17 (sustains); Luke 7:48,49 (forgives sin); John 11:41-44 (raises the dead); John 5:27 (judges); John 15:26 (sends the Holy Spirit).
d. His receiving Worship: Hebrews 1:6 (from angels); Revelation 5:11-13 (from other heavenly beings); Matthew 14:33 (from men); Philippians 2:10 (from all).
e. His equality within the Triune God: John 14:23, John 10:30-33 (with the Father); Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14 (with the Father and the Spirit).
I hope you can see from these few Scriptures that Jesus was not just a special Man or Prophet sent by God, but truly was "God manifested in the flesh". No other man before Jesus' coming, during, or after His leaving this Earth, could ever fully reflect God's Glory, Wisdom & Power. Only God could - and He did this by sending us His Word, made Him a Man, so that He could give His Life as full payment for our sins - but only to those who believe this & place their trust in Him. To some, the 'Trinity' teaching is abominable. But man's salvation depends on the Divine Person of the Lord Jesus Christ - that God could accept no other Sacrifice to redeem & secure people to Himself - only by giving fully of Himself, which is true love for all.
Often we speak of a revival, sometimes revival seems it is what the church needs rather than the nation. The nation is doing what nations do.
The church is set apart and is to be light to ALL the world/nations.
Here's what I observed, Some seems to minister to draw people to themselves.
They are thinking they are that light and rightfully so. But what is you/light supposed to shine on? Who's in the midst of the candlesticks? Jesus!
Today we see people "But not everyone" shine light upon themselves. ( Notice I didn't say "the light.)
Is that an oil filled light?
Can there be a revival in this way?
I'm sure we can agree on this matter, The question is "DO I DO THIS?" We should ask ourselves.
Here is also what we should ask ourselves.
Does this glorify the Lord?
Am I doing this by the Spirit of God or the lust of the flesh?
Is it the Lords glory I am seeking?
Is this moved by the Spirit?
If Gods spirit resides in you you should know!
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:31-32.
HOW DOES THE WORLD SEE US?
Boy does this matter!
Acts 2:44-47 ?
John 13:35 ?
Here is just a few things that would hender these 2 verses?
Certainly Leaven and the tares plays a role.
When the world look at us from the outside they see some of their own.
Pride by the work of their own hands.
Materialism.
Racism.
Ect.ect.
We also get along worse than them considering we are supposed to be led by the Spirit.
Jude 1:4
Hebrews 5:12-14.
2 Peter 2:10-15.
This is why everything we do should be what is (caused) by the Holyspirit.
Don't let pride keep you from your purpose and proper place.
"Following Jesus and shining you light on Him!!
Examine ourselves.
God bless.
Sorry for such a long delay in responding I went right off to bed after my last reply.
A disciple of Christ is one who has truly believed on and trusted Christ and have been born of God's spirit. This is not professing to be born again and trying to live a righteous life or by serving or by going to church or by ministering. It's confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that initiates God's spirit to take residence in you. You are baptized by the Holyspirit, meaning you are Identified with Christ. Christ righteous is imputed over on to you. You are then given a new heart with the ability to love and wants to obey him and serve him at your best. John 14:23-26.
You will also love the brethren. John 13:34-35. 1 John 4:21.
You can't redeem yourself! You are redeemed when you truly believe on the work Jesus did on the cross where he paid our ransom as mentioned.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Christianity isn't anything you "DO"
A Christian is what you "BECOME" by the working of the Holyspirit. And you become that by truly trusting in Christ not the works of our own hands. Christ becomes the Lord over your life and the head of the body of Christians you have been baptized into.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13.
God bless.
Matthew 25:31-46, is how we are to treat the "least of these" to belittle anyone is a direct offense to GOD. 1Corinthians 1:20-27, Proverbs 17:5, Romans 14:13, James 4:11, 1Corinthians 4:5, John 13:34, Romans 12:10,
This is "brother or sister" literal & family of believers aka "brethren " because those words from "family" hurt deepest
We're to edify Romans 13:8, 1John 4:7, Romans 14:19, 1Thessalonians 5:8-23,
Hopefully these are helpful
Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, John 13:4-16, John 19:23,
Hopefully these are helpful
Spirit baptism, being born of God's Spirit is what causes a new birth, not water baptism. Now, with that being said, water baptism is something everyone born again believer should seek after salvation.
Woman's seed = Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Luke 1:26-37,
Son of wickedness = 1Samuel 25:17, John 8, Luke 22:3, John 13:2,
Matthew 4, Matthew 9:32-33, Matthew 23:25-39,
Don't be in fear. 1John 4:18, Luke 12:5, Psalms 34:9, Exodus 20:20, James 4:7,
The enmity Jesus faced: John 19:6,
* Matthew 12,
God surely gets no "pleasure in the death of the wicked". ( Ezekiel 18:32). To understand David correctly we must see it as the Holy Spirit and inspired scripture; although there were those enemies of his that he wanted to see eliminated. It wasn't for the sake of a personal vendetta; as can be seen by his patience with the "anointed of the Lord" ( 1 Samuel 24:6). Even when his own sin took Saul; David mourned over his death. We can look at Judas Iscariot and the prophecy ( Psalm 41:9). This was a man deliberately chosen and called who was predestined to be the son of perdition. Nonetheless; giving him the sop was said to be something honoring a person right before Satan entered him and he went off to betray him. (see John 13:29). Loving our enemies therefore is personal; whereas our attitude toward destruction is impersonal. Only God can make the personal judgment; and tdhat is impartial.
Therefore; the general message is the blessing of rightous (verse 11 and 12) and the destruction of the wicked because of their sins making them deserving of such a fate.
Master. I have stated before and it doesn't hurt to repeat it that Christ is our MASTER as well as being Lord and Savior. Of course this isn't a "politically correct" concept which would be one benefit those living in a society seeing servitude (indentured servants at least) would have in comprehending that concept as a proper "lifestyle choice" for those who would proclaim Christ (although it is more of a command). The most direct reference Christ makes to us in this status is when he talks about the "unworthy servant" ( Luke 17:7-10). This gives as a good outline of how; for instance we should always prioritize our time for worship; prayer and studying the Word. There is only one who we are accountable to as individuals when this life is done. All good gifts are given from above; and hence are to be used for service in the Kingdom and edification of the brethren.
Fellowship of the saints. The command (not request) to love one another is emphasized in John 13:34-35 as well as 1 John. Surely the disciple that Christ "loved" ( John 21:7) was used to deliver this message and surely he understood that concept.
Sadly; this concept of adoption into the family of God ( Romans 8:14-19 but by no means limited to that verse) is more of an abstract idea today in most churches. Something as practical as inviting a single person to a holiday meal (such as was done for me a few years back) can really make a difference. We are instructed to rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn ( Romans 12:15). The opposite of this is either indifference; or worse gossip which basically is mocking a person's situation or at best having some morbid curiosity. Just to break out and instigate a conversation may take some effort when others on a Sunday morning are more interested id discussing sports; entertainment or personal matters to those in their social circles.
Matthew 25:31-46, Isaiah 58, John 13:34, Romans 12:10, Romans 13:8, 1Peter 3:8, Hebrews 10:24,
Romans 4, notice in those 'works' it's speaking of circumcision Romans 4:1, Romans 4:9-13, not acts of compassion
They don't contradict each other they're completely separate issues, Deuteronomy 10:16-20,
Malachi 3:5,10 = Deuteronomy 26:10-13 , Exodus 22:22, Deuteronomy 14:22-29, Deuteronomy 24:14-15, Deuteronomy 24:19-21,
Matthew 5:16-20, Matthew 7:12-27 = Mark 12:38-40, Mark 23, Luke 20:46,47, Isaiah 9:17,
Hopefully helpful
Revelation 4:5 also discusses the seven Spirits of God along with Revelation 5:6. Apparently; Isaiah 11:2 is a commonly referred to cross reference; although technically it involves 6 ministries under the Lord Himself (as the 7th); it does fit in a sort of Menorah picture of how the Spirit operates in the entire corporate Body. We see a further description in Zechariah 4:2-3 of this source (apparently now in heaven); and the two prophets that tap into this power as witnesses throughout the earth in the end times. That can be studied further in Revelation 11.
It would seem that the seven spiritual gifts also would be in play here as to the emphasis given to a given church. This would be seen in Romans 12:6-8. In general; it seems that there are certain strengths and weaknesses that are commonplace depending on what gifts we have and that could factor into the overall situation as to the state of a congregation; what trials a particular congregation may or may not be called to suffer; doctrinal errors that creep in; etc. It is important to see the interdependence here so that the church isn't imbalanced
( 1 Cor. 12:14-16). In fact; we also see seven gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11. It is important to differentiate between the fruit of the Spirit (love; joy; peace; longsuffering; etc) in Galatians 5:22-22 which characterizes the lives of all true believers and the particular ministries they have. We can't have one without the other. The common thread; of course is the love of God and brethren as seen in John 13:34-35; and reflected in 1 Corinthians 13 (entire chapter). Apparently; gifts can operate even with immature saints just as some could believe at one time without understanding the indwelling Holy Spirit such in Acts 19:1-4.
In conclusion; God distributes as He will or "severally" ( 1 Cor. 12:11). In obedience because we love Christ ( John 14:15) we have the right attitude to grow.
Many people call the Passover an eight-day feast, even in Jesus' day. Some say Feast of Unleavened Bread and some feast of Passover. Passover is on the 14th and the Feast of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th -21st. In Matthew 26:17 it starts; Now the first day of the Feast of Unleavened BreadIn Mark 14:12 and in Luke 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread when the Passover must be killed In John 13:1 Now before the feast of the Passover this was after the Last Supper. The Last Supper was on Passover Day.
Passover Day is a preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The first day of the Unleavened Bread Feast is the Sabbath, Exodus 12:16. On the 14th all leaven had to be purged from the houses and Jerusalem. This is the preparation day that is in scripture not Friday the preparation day for the weekly Sabbath.
John 18:28 confirms the Passover lambs had not yet been sacrificed or eaten because they did not want to be defiled, they passed the blood of the lambs to the altar. This would be done after the sun started going down, any time after noon. This was going on at the same time Jesus was hanging on the cross. The Passover lamb was eaten on the night of the 15th the night they went out of Egypt, Exodus 12:29-32. Jesus was in the tomb when the Passover meal was eaten.
If Jesus was crucified on Friday, we do not have three days and three nights and there are not that many days covered in Matt, Mark, Luke, and John. If Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, Thursday would be the Sabbath, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and the women could have gone to the tomb on Friday because it would be a preparation day for the weekly Sabbath, So Thursday would be the only day of the week that fits scripture.
That gives Thur. day, Fri. night and day, Sat. night and day Sun. night Jesus rose before sunrise, John 20:1 it was still dark.
I hope this is enough to make sense.
God bless,
RLW
In my mind, this becomes a salvation based on human effort to please God, rather than a believer's spirit & Will secured & resting in God's Salvation & living the Christian life (with its ups & downs) in the power of the Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit that secures & nourishes the believer to remain faithful & true to the One Who has purchased him and not our efforts to ensure our salvation is secure.
What the apostles did by warning the Churches was to alert them to false teaching & if they were truly saved, to avoid the disciplining of the Lord, which He gives to all whom He loves. Just thought to add my belief to further define the life of a truly saved believer & God's continual work in him, ensuring nothing separates him "from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord". Blessings to you brother.
Even if I use a personal example: when have I strayed into some sin & not felt the gentle tug of the Spirit - when have I persisted in that sin & not been drawn into deep conviction & sorrow for grieving the Lord Whom I love? Can I ever see myself being so drawn away, that I am willing to give up Christ for the World? Never. God's Spirit will persist with me, bearing upon my self-will & obstinacy, to restore me back to the Father. At least that's been my experience, & I perceive what Jesus spoke concerning the eternal security of those whom the Lord has secured ( John 6:39; John 10:27,28). But if I sense no conviction & a life of sin is more preferable, I would readily admit that I wasn't even saved - at least not saved by God, but saved by my reckoning.
Then in contrast & what perplexes me: if I would believe that my salvation could be lost due to gross sin or leaving the faith, that would mean that I would never know in the present, that I'm truly saved & accepted. Why? Because of the real possibility that I could become unsaved. Then what should I do to return back to the Lord & re-gain His Holy Spirit? Obviously, to repent of my sin & cleave to Him, as I did at the first. But would that be enough, since I would never know the intensity of the sin that separated me from God, to the measure of righteousness that would please Him & send His Spirit back to me. Then how much could I obey Him & earnestly follow Him to ensure my salvation? Or maybe, to hold such a belief means that only in that Day of Judgement will a Christian know whether he has believed enough, done enough, repented enough, to be accepted by God?
Thanks again brother for your response. Actually, I see that my understanding of who are blood-bought, Spirit-filled believers & followers of Christ are not always the same as another's understanding. Maybe, my view is too restrictive, too narrow; but I feel compelled to hold this view considering what Jesus & the apostles described of one who is genuine & a true believer. As well, I try my best to avoid making judgement on the spiritual condition of others who profess belief in Christ - I simply don't have that authority or the ability to discern a heart's condition. If I have to deal with struggles within myself, I certainly would not be in a position to discern where a person is at before the Lord. Therefore, in the Church, there can not only be false teachers (as we've already discussed & seen in the epistles), but also false Christians (i.e. amongst the laity & Church leadership). Just because a 'Christian' appearance is seen by man, doesn't mean that this reflects the condition of the heart before God. And yet, we must accept one another as those in Christ, & encourage one another in our walk of faith.
So, if we understand that a true believer is one who is saved through Christ's Sacrifice & has the Holy Spirit in residence, becoming God's blood-bought child, what would it take for God to allow such a child to increasingly become wayward, returning back to his old sinful life, & be lost into Satan's clutches? I not only see that God would not permit it (as His Spirit cannot be willy-nilly given & taken away making God's deep work in the heart a farce), but also He immediately lovingly applies intervention to alert & restore the wayward one.
I've read your answers and I see how you understand some scriptures and since it seems that we see things differently, I will make a summary of what we agree with and of what we disagree.
It seems that we agree that a man who was saved by God's grace may sometimes, for his own (bad) reasons, change course and return to his original sinful life with all those consequences that accompany such an action. One may as well stay in the church but live in a sinful condition, that is he doesn't want to correct some things he does wrongly.
God uses any way His wisdom chooses to bring that child of His back, often by permitting hard situations to go through one's life or even permits satan to "distruct" them to a specific extend, or even He Himself "punishes" His children for a good purpose.
And it is here where our disagreement begins from, if I get it right. In my opinion you don't consider that God is powerless in front of some situations, He is actually powerless in front of man's free will, He can not violate it, He can not force people to do something they don't want to do. He works in many different ways, He makes all sort of efforts, He uses any possible way, to make people repent and return back even in the last minute of their lives. But those efforts do not always succeed not because God is not capable of but because man does not cooperate with Him, does not obey, does not repent, keeps his heart hard as stone.
God's will is that all people get saved, but not all will be saved. His Will stops infront of man's will. This is what His righteouness says to Him. There is always a condition for people to get and keep salvation. Their cooperation with God
Your belief is that finally God always succeeds in His efforts to bring His children back into repentance. But I think that there are many examples in both NT and OT that show us (in my opinion) that the opposite may sometimes happen.
Anyway, thanks for your response and the conversation we are having.
GBU
Does Satan have the authority to take away life? I believe that only God gives & takes away life. In Satan's domain (i.e. outside the Church to which a sinning believer might be sent), pain & destruction may well be the physical demise of the believer, to the end that his "spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".
Re: "untimely death". I mean that a life was shortened because of God's action against sin. We see this in many instances in the OT & NT, & especially that we have already mentioned Ananias & Sapphira ( Acts 5); 1 Corinthians 11:27-30; Acts 12:21-23.
Re: Hebrews 10:26,27 & we can add, Hebrews 6:4-6 as well; these verses have been discussed previously by bro Jesse & myself & too long to deal with here.
Re: Acts 21:20. All I can see from this limited detail, is that the Church (the Jewish component), hadn't properly dealt with the separation of the Law & the liberty they ought to have enjoyed in Christ. Much like today, when those coming out of other religions or cults, might take a long time to understand & resolve matters that have been indoctrinated deep into their minds. The fact that the Jerusalem council seemed to understand & accept this matter didn't warrant them to address it. However, Paul always did & was taken to task for doing so.
I hope I've addressed the points you raised, brother. I know we will see these things differently, but I hope you can also see how I understand it: the Lord knows His children & they have been brought into His family by His indwelling Spirit. Does God make an error in doing so? Or, are His children secure in Him & when they err, His correction done in love, will always bring us back into fellowship. If it doesn't do so, then, speaking personally, I would have to question my salvation, that it was merely a mental or emotional assent given, without a true change in heart & spirit. And that's the only way I can understand some of these difficult, apparently contentious, Scriptures. Every blessing.
b. I note your understanding of the two Greek words in question, that there is no significant difference between them. But why I earlier suggested that "fail" indicates 'falling short', is because of the earlier verses 5-11, indicating that believers who err, must be recipients of God's Chastisement - if not, those believers are imposters (illegitimate). So why then do we read verses 12-15, speaking about their learning from God's Discipline, to follow peace with all men, & holiness of life, and having careful introspection (episkopeo)? That they might not 'fail' (fall short) of God's Grace. If we apply 'failing God's Grace' to 'loss of salvation', then God's Discipline seems unnecessary, as that would provide no correction to bring one back to holy living. But to the true believer, God's Discipline must bring about the desired results, because if it didn't, then we would be illegitimate, even as Esau relinquished his birthright & was rejected.
c. Re: the prodigal son parable. I think that the point of the story was that a son wanted to go out on his own, fell into hard times, came to his senses, & was joyfully received back by his father. I don't see any reference here to "God's punishment to cause a change of course & come back". It is as you say, 'the son's decision' to return & he was welcomed home, just as a wayward believer would, returning back setting his eyes only on God. No chastisement or punishment here, as this parable wasn't suggesting that. But we do read of God's disciplining in Hebrews 12. How that takes place can be different to each one of us: whether the gentle urging of the Holy Spirit, a stern message from the pulpit, sickness, even death (as was for Ananias & Sapphira). The point is, that a believer will receive the Word from the Lord in some way & will be corrected. Why? Because he is a blood-bought child of a loving God, even as a loving earthly father would never reject his child but first offer correction & restoration.
Thank you bro Giannis for your lengthy reply - & I trust you had a profitable time away. I'll try to deal with the points you raised.
a. Agreed, Galatians is written to believers & in Galatians 5:1, we read of Paul's urgent warning to stand fast in the liberty given by Christ & not be swayed by others to become entangled into legalistic bondage (the Law/circumcision). And so Paul lays out the Truth to these who may be considering/drifting towards this false teaching: 'if your justification comes by obedience to the Law, then God's Grace (salvation) would no longer be yours.' I see this as a warning towards a principal: 'Law & Grace don't mix, so stand fast in Christ's liberty.' Hopefully, those erring Galatians would heed Paul's teaching rather than the false ones, & hold onto the Truth.
But your question would be, 'what about those who don't heed it, won't they fall from God's Grace?' I agree that they would, but did anyone from their midst, come to this sad state of losing their salvation? Or was it simply Paul's warning to the Church about this false doctrine, that righteousness doesn't come by obedience to the Law, therefore don't be fooled by this teaching. And to add, Paul says in verse 10, "I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be." I guess, it depends how one wants to view this passage in Galatians: as a warning against false teachers or as a teaching that salvation can be lost.
Hello Chris. Sorry for my delayed answer but I just managed to get back to you.
a. Paul's letter to Galatians is not addressed to unbelievers but to the church, the saved saints of Galatia. What happened there? Some christians from other places who were Jews came to Galatia and tought people there that they can not be saved by the grace of Jesus only, but through Moses' law as well. Those people that were drifted towards such teaching were not unbelievers but were members of the local church, saved people that is. In verse 5:4 Paul tells them "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.". So one who is saved if he changes course and seeks salvation through works (Mosaic Law) then he looses God's grace, which grace in this case means salvation. Why? Because He seeks ijustification through works and not Jesus' Blood. As you write the greek word "ekpipto" is used, translated as "fallen", which is accurate enough
b. Paul's letter to Hebrews is also addressed to believers. What Paul says is that if somebody has a root of bitterness in his heart, and does nothing about it, and keeps being in an unforgivable situation, then he lacks in God's grace. Why? Because he doesn't repent and stays in his sin. The greek "hystero" is translated as "fail" which is not the same but doesn't make any significant difference. Hystero means "lack in", "left behnd", the word Hysterisis in Physics comes from this word. What Paul means is that if a believer stays in a state that he doesn't want to repent or doesn't make any efford to correct his sin, then God's grace is not upon him. Paul uses Esau as an example for somebody who doesn't repent for his sin but still wants to get the blessing, and that can not be possible. The same happens for fornicators and profane persons. Pay attention Paul doesn't talk to unbelievers, there is no point for that, those have to come to faith to be saved. He talks to believers
to be cont...
c. It is not God who punishes people to make them change course and come back. In the story of the prodigal son, the father didn't go after his son to bring him back. It was the hard times that the son lived through, outside his father's protection, that made him decide to go back. Once a person is outside God's protection, satan is incharge. Paul says to Corinthians about that believer who was living wth his father's wife. 1 Cor 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." How come satan has the authority to destruct a believer? Because he lives in an unforgivable sin. Will that person eventually repent and return? Maybe yes, maybe no. In our lives we have seen many cases that prodigal sons never come back, and this is a reality. Judas never came back, Demas never came back, neither did Ananias and Sapphira did.
Often the parable of the shepherd and the lost sheep is used to justify the belief of a secured salvation, but in this case the sheep got lost, was confused, lost his vision and his way, so Jesus looked for it and brought it back. But in the parable of the prodigal son, the son didn't loose his way, wasn't confused, wasn't lost somehow, but he freely decided to go away from his house and live his sinful life spending his father's fortune. In this case father never went after him but waited for his son in the house, if he finally did come back.
d. What do you mean with "an untimely death will follow if warnings are not heeded". Doesn't this mean that he died in his sin and was eventually lost? Weren't those Jews that disobeyed Mose's Law went to hell, like all those that didn't make it in the promised land because they believed in the spies' stories? And so many other examples in OT.
to be cont...