Discuss John 17 Page 13

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

When he was returned to his Glory he addresses his self the way he did in the old testament.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, (((THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE ))).

Can someone tell me why is the SON called the everlasting FATHER in Isaiah 9:6??

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, ((THE ALMIGHTY!!))

Here is how Almighty is defined in Revelation:

Greek:

Transliteration: pantokratr

Pronunciation: pan-tok-rat'-ore

Definition: From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling that is God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty Omnipotent.

KJV Usage: Almighty(9x), omnipotent(1x).

Occurs: 10

In verses: 10

"" ME AND MY FATHER ARE ONE""

I can heartily agree with your first paragraph that the Triune God is very Truth. But then you say that the Holy Spirit is not a person. And it's at this point that we have to dwell.

Before I give you some Scriptures, let me ask, "what if God chose to embody His "Truth" (the Holy Spirit), with flesh, as He did to His "Word"? Would that alter your belief that the Spirit is more than the Truth (a Word) of God, but very God Himself by His Spirit?

Some Scriptures for you to consider that the Holy Spirit is not only the 'Truth of God' but sent from God as God: 1 Corinthians 2:10-11 (He is Intelligent, He searches, He knows, He has a Will); Ephesians 4:30 (He has feelings - can be grieved & He seals the believer); John 14:26 (He teaches; notice the pronoun); John 16:13, Romans 8:14; Acts 8:29 (He guides, leads, speaks, hears, glorifies God); Acts 13:4 (He commissions or despatches); Romans 8:26,27 (He intercedes); Matthew 12:31 (He can be blasphemed); Acts 5:3 (He can be lied to); Acts 7:51 (He can be resisted); Hebrews 10:29 (He can be outraged). And these are just a few to consider.

Then if we leave off the word 'Spirit' & replace it with 'Truth' in those Scriptures (as you asked me to try out), in some cases, it could work as the Spirit is Truth, as God & the Son are Truth. But in other cases, that just wouldn't work (e.g. how does the Truth (as a spoken Word) grieve, search, has a Will, feelings, hears, glorifies, commissions, intercedes, blasphemed against, etc.?). And then again, why did God not just use the word 'Truth' (as in 'the Truth shall set you free') but rather shows us that His Spirit (of Truth) was sent to accomplish these tasks? I can see if someone has difficulty with the Doctrine of the Trinity, then understanding the Spirit's part in the Godhead would be a problem.

God is truth, Jesus brings truth to earth, the Holy Spirit is the truth. They are all three truth and they are the same truth.

The Holy Spirit is not a person, but it is truth. When you have the Holy Spirit in you, you have the truth of God in you.

The truth will lead all people to God. Truth is sent to people to convince and to bring conviction to the sinner. When a person has the Holy Spirit, they have the truth within them making it possible to speak the truth. When a person departs from the truth they are profane, meaning unholy and they cannot speak the truth.

It is confusing to think of the Holy Spirit as a person. The Holy Spirit is the truth that can go everywhere. It can be spoken, written, go out on the radio and television and the internet. Yes, truth it does convict the sinner. It can go throughout the entire world.

Read again what you have written with the knowledge that the Holy Spirit is the truth of God.

To properly define the Holy Spirit, as you know would take several pages & even then we would not do justice because of our limited understanding from the Word. So briefly, without giving references at this stage, the Holy Spirit is:

a. a Person within the Triune God: proved by His Names, His Characteristics, His Works & His association with the Father & the Son.

b. He proceeded from the Godhead eternally & without any dividing or change in God's Nature.

c. He was involved in Creation, the Virgin Birth, in Christ's Life, Ministry, Death & Resurrection & also for the sake of mankind (convicting, regenerating, indwelling, baptizing, sealing).

d. He gave gifts to God's children & fills them so they can lead God-honouring lives with joy & in power. In so doing, He teaches us, guides us, gives assurance & comfort, & helps us to pray.

e. He came upon the men of old (including Christ's disciples) in measure, according to their appointment, but now, in fulness to reside in all of God's children.

f. He inspired the writing of God's Word & leads us into God's Truth & even today empowers men to preach the Gospel & to stand for Christ even in the face of death.

And so "what is the Spirit's Power?" As can be gleaned from the incomplete list above, the Holy Spirit is the very Presence of God sent to the world to bring conviction to the hearts of men of their sin & their separation from God and to indwell every one who has come to God in faith because of His Son. To us, we have all the resources from God to live a victorious life, using His Gifts for the blessing of His people, having the power & joy to serve God, to withstand Satan & his followers around us & to increase our faith when we falter. Yet He is so often stifled in His Work in us, because of unconfessed sin & by taking our eyes off Jesus & looking to the world or within ourselves. But "greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the World".

Barbara, may the Spirit grace you with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding. The traditions of man has distorted the true gospel. The traditions of man teaches heaven is a natural place with natural streets, natural buildings, natural walls and we exist much like we exist now; but the word of God teaches heaven is a person in a glorified body with no need for streets or houses or any thing existing in a natural state.

John 3:13 No man has ascended up to heaven, but he (Christ in the same glorified body he existed in as Jehovah in the old testament) that came down from heaven (and became flesh), even the Son of man which is in heaven (now back in the glorified body he had before).

Let's try to comprehend what is depicted as (spiritual) heaven (where the Spirit dwells).

1 Corinthians 3:17 Know ye not that ye are the TEMPLE OF GOD, and the SPIRIT OF GOD dwelleth in you.

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord (the Father), The heaven is my throne, and the earth (dust, flesh) is my footstool: where is the house that ye (Christ) build unto me? and where is the place of my (SPIRIT) rest?

Psalm 127:1 Except the Lord (Christ) build the house, they labour in vain .....

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a Son over his own house, whose house we are....

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I overcame and am sit down with my Father in his throne.

John 17:21 That they ALL MAY BE ONE as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that THEY also may be ONE in us.....

1 Timothy 6:16 Who (CHRIST) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto....

1 Corinthians 15:52-54 In a Moment....Death is swallowed up in victory.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men (we are dead in our trespasses) shall Live, TOGETHER WITH MY (CHRIST) DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE....

Revelation 20:5 .....This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Luke 20:34-36 .....Being the CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.

John 14:2 In my Fathers house are many mansions...

You say, "at which time they too would receive the Holy Spirit & go out on their Mission in the Spirit's Power."

Once again we need a definition of the Holy Spirit. What is the Spirit's power?

Indeed, Jesus is the Way, the only Way to God ( John 14:6) & we ought to have only one Church teaching the same as Jesus did. Yet, even though most will agree to Jesus being the only way, other suggestions have since cropped up to help us make sure that we do get to Heaven. Praying to the saints & departed loved ones, doing good works, purgatory, etc. are all believed in to guarantee acceptance. Yet all these things take away from the complete work of Jesus at the Cross & God's accepting it so that we might be forgiven. So by adding to our salvation, we actually remove Jesus from being the only Way to God.

As Jesus & His disciples travelled about, there would be occasions where they may have found some people who gave them shelter for the night, but not all would have aligned themselves with Jesus, especially because of pressure from the Jewish religious leaders to refuse Jesus. So when there was no roof to sleep under, maybe under trees or in caves became their overnight stop. It was a hard life indeed, but God's Message needed to go out, God's Power & Presence needed to be seen & God's Sacrifice needed to be offered - nothing, even lack of a roof, would deter Jesus in His Mission & His disciples would have learned many great lessons as well during their travels & hardships that would have stood them well, at which time they too would receive the Holy Spirit & go out on their Mission in the Spirit's Power.

I've heard it said that Jesus did not make a "name" for the way of truth that He taught for the approx 3 years he was here on earth. And perhaps the reason was because He brought one way, one faith and one baptism. Some have said He didn't have to make a name because He didn't teach 2,000 or more different ways to worship God. That has always been an interesting question to me.

And Jesus said He didn't have a place to lay his head. Foxes have holes, birds nest but the Son of man hath not a place to lay His head. That's just so interesting to me. Why would Jesus go out homeless?

Apparently there was nearly always someone who would want Him to stay in their home. What a privilege...... Then were His disciples also homeless? Following His example. Perhaps they also would be welcome in the homes of the believers so they could visit..... A couple nights here and there etc. would it not be the simplest way possible and not to be a burden on anyone and what blessing for those who were chosen to invite the disciples into their homes.??

Seek Ye first the kingdom of GOD and His righteousness and all these other things shall be added unto thee. May the truth set you free in JESUS mighty name

9-11-01 was Rev 9:1-11 the fifth trumpet when America attacked itself into tribulation.

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What was the Judaizers message? Circumcision was the 'big thing' ( Gal 5): one could never be a true Christian unless he was first circumcised. They also needed to adhere to the various rites & ceremonies as prescribed by Law ( Gal 4:9,10).

Thirdly, with the above in mind (the limitations & brevity of the Law and to be warned about wrong teaching entering in), Paul then asks, "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" ( Gal 3:2). Did the Law, whether found in the 10 Commandments or in the strict observance of religious days, events, sacrifices or ceremonies, ever minister to them the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? With the limitations of the Law & by its design & expiry date, why would a believer ever appeal to that faded Law when the Life-giving Spirit because of Jesus Christ, was their possession: from the Spirit Who speaks & ministers to the heart & not by the letter of the Law? ( Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6).

You ask: "What then is the overall message we need to hear and understand?" The pressing message from the apostle is clearly in Galatians 5:1: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage". Though most of us don't have a Jewish heritage hanging over us, yet how many other believers still want to appeal to the Law (maybe not as the Judaizers did), but certainly when it comes to the strict adherence to each Law, even the Sabbath in particular, lest they fail from the Grace of God. If that were the case, then as Paul would say in Romans 11:6: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works (conforming to the Law): otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

What a life & a liberty that Jesus has gained for us - yet so many Christians today desire to place a yoke of bondage upon us thereby weakening or negating the liberty we have through faith only, in Jesus.

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Fred, I think you may be referring to my earlier comments to the enquirer about why Paul wrote to the Galatians. If not, & your comments here are of a general nature & not directed to me, I apologize.

But if could write a few things to what you've written. It's probably good to stay with Galatians, since Paul is quite thorough in his teaching of the Law vs Grace. And this was so, as you noted, that the Church(es) there were being infiltrated by these proponents of the necessity of keeping the Law in all its forms coupled with embracing the freedom that the believer has in Christ.

Firstly, the Law can never complement the Gospel of Grace - they are opposed to each other in both meaning & application. If searching hard for a connection, it would have to be that both are from the same Author: given at different times & for different outcomes. The Law by its very nature & objective was given because "of transgressions till the Seed should come" (3:19). The Law was given to Israel so that they might know God's requirements for them, to be made aware of the nature & effects of sin ( Romans 7:9) & the compulsion to deal with it with sacrifices which diverted God's Anger & Judgement upon them. This was a continual offering because sin was a continual burden to the soul. The sacrifices & odours were acceptable to God in view of the One great & perfect Offering made & given by God that would be offered once & for all people ( Hebrews 10:10,12,14).

Secondly, Paul's dealing with the Judaizers was very stern, because any fusing of the old Jewish Law with the New Covenant through Jesus would never work. Paul even appealed to Abraham ( Galatians 3:6-18) to show that God accepted him for his faith, & the blessings to the (gentile) nations could only come based on that faith alone. If what we inherit came by obedience to the Law, then it would no longer be "by promise", as what was assured to Abraham.

What is mentioned about the law and gospel? How do they differ from each other, while at the same time complementing each other? Like you say Paul teaches concerning the things of the church, Peter describes the Christ to the Judaizer. What then is the overall message we need to hear and understand?

These are all verses directed to Yehsua below; My God John 10:28, Thy throne of God Heb 1:8

Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

1. Your throne, O God. ( Hebrews 1:8)

2. Thy throne, O God. ( Psalms 45:6)

3. the Word was God. ( John 1:1)

4. My God. ( John 20:28)

5. The mighty God. ( Isaiah 9:6)

6. God and Savior Jesus Christ. ( Titus 2:13)

7. the Lord God ... the Almighty. ( Revelation 1:8)

I really like Bob how you used 0 scriptures in your response!

Bob if Yeshua is less god then God the Father then are also you less human then your father!

Hi Bob, have you read these verses?

John 10:30

John 1:1

It's indisputable what they mean. There's only one meaning that's so simple and clear that children understand it. Do you believe these verses are true?

As much as I like those verses and Jesus is of God and God given power and closest to the father by relationship.

You still have no verse that clearly says Jesus is God .

There are over 40 that state Jesus is the son of God .

And many more that state that God is one .

So your doctrine loses about100 to 0 . Case closed .

"There is not a single verse that says Jesus is God the Son" bla bla bla Son of God.. Here does it say straight out GOD, Almighty, Mighty GOD. This is not an eye problem but an heart problem for the deity of Yeshua The Messiah

1. Your throne, O God. ( Hebrews 1:8)

2. Thy throne, O God. ( Psalm 45:6)

3. the Word was God. ( John 1:1)

4. My God. ( John 20:28)

5. The mighty God. ( Isaiah 9:6)

6. God and Savior Jesus Christ. ( Titus 2:13)

7. the Lord God ... the Almighty. ( Revelation 1:8)

8. God and Savior Jesus Christ. ( 2 Peter 1:1)

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy." Hebrews 1:8

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Psalm 45:6

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13 ( God, and, savior, our, Isous, Christou).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

edited edition

Daniel. D

Hey Chris would you like to do a Bible study with me you can find me on fb or YouTube let me know and I will send the info

John 17:8 (KJV) For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Great Scripture. And we can never forget John 17:5. The Glory which Jesus had was laid aside so that He could become God's Son & the Son of Man.

Amen! They are one Even as We Are One With Them As Well According to Jesus Christ The SON Of God John 17:22 (KJV) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

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God did send out His Word by the prophets but lastly sent His final message through that same Word ( Hebrews 1:1,2), now clothed in flesh for not just in bringing out God's Word in Person, but for the main purpose, that this Word (of God, from God, as God) would lay down His Life as a full substitutionary payment for our sins.

So here is the difficulty that you have, implying: the Son of God was only that, a special separate creation, holy & sinless, Who would sacrifice His Life in our stead. Yes, He was a special creation, not out of nothing, but from God's very Being. Though the requirement of a spotless Sacrificial Lamb offering would have been met in such a (separate) creation by God, it would lack the most important aspect of such a sacrifice: that God Himself would make the payment for man's sins. This is the true & fullest expression of God's Love ( 1 John 3:16: "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he (God) laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."). God had to come down to the realm of sinful man, taking on his flesh & ultimately becoming the sin offering that gives full pardon to all who come to Him by faith & unequivocal love in response. If God did not take this initiative, or He (in Jesus) failed to rise from the dead, we would remain hopeless, unredeemable, consigned to hell fire for all eternity.

I pray Rob, that you & any other who is at variance to what the Scripture teaches on this important matter, might know that your salvation hangs onto the fact that God had to lay down His Life to redeem you, & that He accomplished that by coming down, sending His Word, in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who then rose again to the Father, to Whom He once prayed: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" ( John 17:5). A very compelling Statement of Truth.

Brother Rob,

There is no need to get sharp. We are just trying to understand why you say believing Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one with God the Father is "damning". No one is saying Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are not OF God. We are saying they are more OF God than anything else in all of creation. Nothing is more OF God than Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. It is confusing why you think it is "damning" to believe God is in them, or they in God, more than anything else.

Please don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from God the Father. Who is of coarse Spirit and the source of all things.

Also you didn't answer the one question I asked about if you believe Christ existed before He was born on earth. Just a yes or no question. You just asked me if "I understand God was before the creation of world". Which you must not have read John 17:5 I posted for you that answers that question. Jesus stating the glory He had WITH THE FATHER before the world was.

God Bless.

In my local Sunday Bible class we are going over John 17: 14-24, KJV. The lesson is entitled, "Called As The Intercessor" Thats where I came across verse 17. And, as sometimes happens, the verse drew me to it. I'm writing because of something that was mentioned in your "People's Bible Notes." "The means of canonization is not a Pope, but the "truth." As a former Catholic i am glad to see you make that distinction. I think that's important, very important. Thank you, for taking the time to read my opinion.

I also believe Jesus Christ and God the Father to be two. Although one in each other. I do not see it ridiculous to say that. As Jesus Christ was born of a virgin conceived by the Holy Ghost. He is part God and part man like no other. No one comes to the Father but by Him. As I'm sure you know.

You can never be one with your wife as Christ is one with God. That is totally different. As Christ stating the words he spake are not of Himself but of the Father that dwelleth in Him. John 14:10 A husband and wife is not like that.

I'm not sure what you believe? Do you believe Jesus Christ was with God before the world was? As in:

John the baptist stating the Messiah existed before him John 1:15

The Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us as the only begotten of the Father John 1:14

Jesus stating "before Abraham was I am" John 8:58

Jesus stating the glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17:5

The King James version is the correct one. Use only the KJV. Do not trust any other version. Stay away from NIV or any other. There are errors in the new translations. Throw it in the dustbin. And get yourself a Strong's concordance based on the KJV. It will teach you the original meaning of every word. Read also John 17:6

Hi Jamie, that is a highly debated topic, Here is some info that might can help, Google J Vernon McGee on What happens to a Christian who commits suicide. hope that helps. My personal belief is if she was saved, she still is, and if she was a child, "under the age of accountability" certainly she still is. Eternal life is not something we can get today and loose tomorrow. Our prayers goes out to you and your family.

Hello hi i understand that you mentioned you were new to God's word. how amazing to want to know God's word as well to know him for yourself. hi my name is LaShun my condolences to you for the loss of your Loved one. I happen to be on this page as i was browsing through i came across your comment. if you have a bible like to Encourage you to read matthew 6:33 seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and the book of proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light and the reproofs of instruction are the way of life. i just wanted to encourage you that whatever you need help God will help you i know you maybe saying this is not nearly close to answering your [question] i know but if you search the scriptures you will everything you need to know. I added these books, and scriptures to help you know God's Commandments. when you wanted know if you commit murder (suicide) the same i pointed out what the book of Exodus God's Commandment says. Exodus 20:13 say Thou shalt not kill it says the same in the book of Deuteronomy 5:17 Thou shalt not kill so whether you kill yourself, or someone. The Ten Commandments clearly points what we should not do. you find read Exodus 20:1-17 God's Ten commandments are in the book of Deuteronomy 5:7-21 to share that with you. my prayer's are with you and love your ones. ask God in prayer to lead you and guide you to all understanding whatever it is that you are going through he will. comfort your heart matthew 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted God blessed. Happy new year

Pray for the departed. If for only that his faith were made whole. Only God can do these things! Remember ,He knows the very numbered hairs on your head! Sometimes God will reveal things to us ,to help us understand these things. Very, very important that we do not take the predetermined council of God away! Or that we have the inalienable right to do so! the war for the children's souls have already been won ,through His Son, Jesus Christ! This you must believe and teach to your children! Only Jesus Christ!

"There is not a single verse that says Jesus is God the Son" bla bla bla Son of God.. Here does it say straight out GOD, Almight, Mighty GOD. This is not an eye problem but an heart problem for the deity of Yeshua The Messiah

1. Your throne, O God. Heb 1:8

2. Thy throne, O God. Ps 45:6

3. the Word was God. John 1:1

4. My Go.d John 20:28

5. The mighty. God Isa 9:6

6. God and Savior. Jesus Christ

7. the Lord God / the Almighty. Rev 1:8

8. God and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1:1

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever, and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions with the oil of joy." Hebrews 1:8

Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Psalm 45:6

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ Titus 2:13

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Pet 1:1

My teen daughter asked me tonight if you commit suicide will you still go to heaven. She unfortunately had a cousin who did so. I have looked and I'm new to God's word so I don't know what to tell her.