John
King James Version (KJV)
Discuss John 17 Page 2
Viewing page: 2 of 24
< Previous Discussion Page Next Discussion Page >
Do you have a Bible comment or question?
Posting comments is currently unavailable due to high demand on the server.
Please check back in an hour or more. Thank you for your patience!
I've selected these following extracts, to help understand, if you will, the sequence of events emanating from Heaven. You wrote: "My understanding is the pre-existence of Jesus was in God's plan before anything was created"; "In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything"; and "He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world".
Given what you've declared, can I assume the following: Jesus was already in God's Mind & Plan (i.e. no physical Jesus yet) before anything was created; but through Jesus, Who was still in God's Mind/Plan, everything was created; even though Jesus (Who could only be in God's Mind at the time) preceded creation, through Jesus all was created & then Jesus was brought forth into the world. I've written this as I've understood your wording; let me know if I've misunderstood you.
If my understanding is correct, my question is, 'can Jesus, being in God's Mind only, be the One Whom God uses to create all things?' So what I see here, is that the origin & need of Jesus was a Plan in God's Mind, but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan. We have no conflict about the Spirit, should we be in dispute about the Word being sent out in flesh? Even Jesus claimed to share in God's Glory before creation ( John 17:5).
And one more point on this: why do you think that God would use a thought (of Jesus) in His Mind to begin the work of creation? I can see where this would be a salvation matter, but of creating (?) - wouldn't God still be able to create without Jesus being a thought in His Mind? We may be closer than we think: is Jesus a result of a Thought or a Word? It is possible that at this point is where our hurdle lies. GBU.
God is a Spirit and His holiness is the name, which He expressed when He declared, 'Thou art my Son'. (Ps.7-8). We can understand the significance of this from this, "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." ( John 17:6-NKJV; John 6:37). Holiness in the matter of the name creates a Holy Family not of flesh and blood but on the basis of faith. The key to the Father Son relationship is faith with works. "If then I be a father, where is my honour?" (Mal.1:6). There are well meaning Christians who is proof against spiritualizing the word. They take literally and go by sense than the Spirit. So what is the wisdom which they go by? Wisdom of heaven is free and they would rather be called Pharisees than take it. Faith is what required. If we see still arguments over humanity and deity of Jesus in our forum it just proves why. Their intellect is their security blanket and cannot let go.
Salvation plan of God is on the basis of the Father Son relationship. The earth as a mirror of heaven. This shall be completed when the tabernacle of God is among men. (Re.21:3)
Separation of sons of God from the unbelieving world is the work to which Jesus referred, My Father works hitherto and I work, and he opened a new and living way. "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2 Co.6:17)
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
Yes, the belief of the Eastern Orthodox church about Jesus is He didn't exist for ever but at a time before the creation of the woorld He was born/came out of Father God. The amended Nicene Creed which was a statement of faith states among others "(I believe) and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (ons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;". That statement was came out in 381 AD during the first ecumenical(universal) council of Constantinouple. So it was what all christians believed at that time. The church was still united at that time. The Roman Catholics also use it (with an extra addition about the Holy Spirit). So this is what the Catholics believe as well. They also believe that all saved people will be somehow "deified by grace". Probably they are using John 17:2, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:..." and 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.". But John here says that we don't know what we will be, so that "be like Him" may not refer to Jesus' nature. Anyway, we know by part as the scripture says.
I am sory about your wife. Was she remary in an Orthodox church? Yes they allow as many as 3 mariages. Sadly they say a lot of excuses about that, thus canceling the Word of God.
Also I don't understand what you are saying in "The other weird thing is how we are supposedly in our material bodies somehow tied in some mysterious way to the creation like it is still happening or something if I get that right.". If you like explain that clearer please. God blesses.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
So Who is this Jesus? A creation from Mary's womb, another deity in Heaven alongside God, or from the Person of the One God Who was the Expression of God's Love through His Life & His Death. I believe that God sent forth that part of Himself, as He does with His Spirit, to become man "for the suffering of death" ( Hebrews 2:9). And now Jesus receives the worship as only God must receive ( Revelation 5:11-14), when prior to His incarnation, all Glory was His within the Person of the One God ( John 17:5).
Sorry for this long post - you had posed many good questions, which I'm unsure that fully dealt with your expectations. Blessings.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Jo.17:16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 11 And now I am no more in the world,but these are in the world,and I come to thee.Holy Father,keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,that they may be one,as we are.
Jo.17:6-8 & 18
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:15&24- ->24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.
Re. 11:15-19
15...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of GOD opened in heaven
GOD the Father always responds to requests from His firstborn son-JESUS-. Luke 15:31 revels:Son, thou art ever with me,and all that I have is thine.
JESUS saved us and we are saved because He took us out of the world - John 17:5-8-,that is, He saved us from the power of the terrible Evil One, the ruler of the whole world.The Evil One had dominated even the seed of GOD, Israel was dominated by the Evil One, then GOD became Man, that is,The Word became flesh,He descended from heaven yet again,according to His purpose of salvation.
In fact, this was not the only time that He came to the Devil's world, but the difference now is that He became a Man and came to dwell among men, to save those who were His- John 17:6and12-26, that is,to take them out of the power of the Evil One, Hallelujah, even though they were still living in his diabolical world, and the Word gave us Power to resist the cunning snares/traps of the Devil- John 17:9-12-even though we still live in the Devil's world. Satan works through his demonic strategies to divert us from the faith that was once given to the saints.Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of GOD,the Word is GOD,a great mystery.
Re.11:15-18-The terrible WAR from now on
15...The kingdoms of this world(Devil's world) are become the Kingdoms of our Lord,and of His Christ;and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were(will be)angry, and GOD's WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged ( 1Thessalonians 4:14-16),and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear His name,small and great;and should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Be careful and get ready
Even the "Shema Yisrael" ( Deuteronomy 6:4,5) is Israel's central belief & affirmation on the singularity of God's Person, & any suggestion of a 'compound' Nature of God would be anathema. Also Isaiah 53:1-12 and Isaiah 9:6,7 references to a coming Messiah, which should clearly reveal the Divine Nature of a Coming One, is discarded by them, then & now. So, anything of a Triune God must be rejected by the Jew, & only the operation of God by His Spirit (i.e. God revealing Himself & working before them) should be acceptable to them (e.g. Psalm 51:10,11; Isaiah 11:2; & many others). As believers though, we can see the Triune God in operation in the whole Bible, but Israel is blinded to this Truth & their hearts hardened.
When Jesus came & spoke (e.g. John 16:27,28; John 17:5), He declared His Divine Nature, that which was not revealed before. So your reference ( Matthew 22:32), speaks primarily of the One Nature of God; but to those who believe, having received salvation through Jesus Christ, know that the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob was always the Triune God, Who would one day manifest Himself fully to a needy world: God's Word first by the prophets, now given through His Word made flesh ( Hebrews 1:1-3) . What Israel knew of the One God then, should have revealed the full Nature of a Triune God at the appearance of their Messiah. But their eyes were blinded & hearts hardened. Therefore, as Christians, I believe that we should see God (in the OT & NT) as a Triune God, manifesting Himself also as His Word and His Spirit going forth to accomplish His Will over His creation.
Tags are used in the case of command as well as to indicate the fullness of Jesus Christ. Expressions like "unto this day" 'on that day" forever" etc., are tags. "I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever."(1 Ki.9:3)
The name of the Father is holiness of the Gospel, which is one. (One Lord , one faith-Ep.4:5).
The Son has a command number, which is Three. The Word made flesh makes his command number Four.
The Number Five is with respect the Son and all souls given "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."( John 17:2) The principle of Association is applied to man in terms of his earthly circumstances. Thus his ox is counted as five. For this reason in the Law we have God commanding Moses, "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep".(Ex.22:1)
What does the Jubilee (5x10) signify? The land belongs to God and the glory of the land is in harmony with the glory of the Son as heir to all things. With the jubilee year the land is to be left fallow. This rest signified rest that is promised to saints redeemed from earth.
1260 days of the ministry of Jesus is reckoned as baseline so both the Lord from heaven and the Son of man serves as a scale.
In the Parable of the Five Wise virgins and Five Foolish virgins where the command number is Ten, indicating the Will of God. (Matt.25:1-13)
(See entry under T-Ten commandments)
The virgins were redeemed from the world and they would have died to sin with taking baptism by water. They were to do the perfect will of God, which was their reasonable service. The Foolish five did no further in walking closer to the Lord. On the other hand the Five Wise virgins redeeming the times were evil did all to be kept from the ungodly ways. In short they followed the prompting of the indwelling Spirit.
Ex nihilo as a concept must remain a chimera of carnal mind, while Sovereign will of God as the Word presides over Power and Wisdom. When we speak of the word of God forever settled in the heavens (Ps.119:89) The word creation has a Cause as well as its volume. He.11:3 refers to two worlds one which is unseen and the other seen. The earth is what the creation attests as Effect, which is upheld 'by the word of his power' (He.1:3) The word of his grace is able to build up. (Ac.20:32; John 17:17) So the new heaven and new earth in Re.21:1 is the inheritance of man and this newness merely speaks of the man component embedded in the fellowship of God with Man.
The word sanctifies whosoever receives the Son and abides in him. "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." (Is.45:18)
"He created it not in vain" is the absolute certainty of Wisdom and Power interacting vis- -vis with the Law. The Spirit underpins the principle of Similitude as a quality: like begets the like. It means the Law renders both heaven and earth having the same qualities. It is thus the Spirit gives heaven a concrete image of a house built by Wisdom. (Pr.9:1) By principle of Similitude the earth is rendered habitable:
We see it in the creation account. "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."(Ge.1:11) 'Whose seed is in itself" by the principle of Similitude the word of God is compared to man whose seed is in itself. The intent of the Spirit is unmistakeable. As God is holy, the earth shall be holy as well. "Be ye holy, for I am holy."
God's purpose in a chosen generation renders consecration on account of the word. This generation belongs to the generation of Jesus Christ. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( John 17:17;1 Co.1:30). It is in his Son we find the fulness of God and not in the Law of Moses. Moses was faithful in all his house which only points to his term of service. Abiding in the Son would mean our sanctification comes from the Son and not from any other.
*Samuel as instructed by God anoints the first time when David was unknown, and least made of even in the eyes of his brethren. But God as the Spirit entrusted Samuel for a specific purpose, which we shall realize only with the third anointing.
Secondly men of Judah anointed him after the death of Saul. This was more of a tactical decision considering that he was their most famous son who brought them prestige in the eyes of Israel. They appropriated him as their own, "And the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah. And they told David, saying, That the men of Jabeshgilead were they that buried Saul(2 Sa.5:4)". This anointing was according to the flesh.
Third time is when David became in the eyes of Israel as anointed of God. So the Spirit gives the relationship its universality: body spirit and soul are consecrated. The Spirit sets David in context of the Lord who said unto my Lord, (Ps.110:1-3) David under the Law of Moses represented shadow of things to come when Jesus Christ reigns from Zion.
The term as used in the Law of Moses holds meaning which is in a narrow sense. Priests are consecrated as well as things as different from their common use.
Consecration broadly stated renders anything being made holy. God command Moses to remove his sandals, " And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.(Ex.3:5)" The ground is holy because of the holiness of the Lord God. 'Be ye holy for I am holy"
Similarly when God descended upon Mount Sinai there were limits put for the people from breaking in "The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, 'Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.' (Ex.19:23). The presence of God requires holiness in man, places and things of use, which is in relation the fellowship of God with the Son. 'Be ye holy as I am is what abiding in Christ means so His grace has not been in vain. His Son is the template. 'When David is set as double for the Son God commands Samuel to anoint him which he did three times.
Consecration is much more than this. When God sent forth his word his divine Will, it expressly required fulfillment. We are blessed accordingly. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light."(1 Pe.2:9) God's purpose in a chosen generation renders consecration on account of the word. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."( John 17:17;1 Co.1:30). It is in his Son we find the fulness of God and not in the Law of Moses. Moses was faithful in all his house which only points to his term of service. Abiding in the Son would mean our sanctification comes from the Son and not from any other.
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth./ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:/Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
In Christ all authority in heaven and on earth resides so without abiding in him the commission cannot be discharged (Matt.28:19)( John 15:4-5). It is universal and enjoined upon ever believer.
Jesus sent the twelve disciples as associates. (Matt.10:40). This Principle of Association renders all those foreknown and called by the Father having a position, which is in heaven. God of all mercies empowers the word outflow as with the Son of man offered the living waters. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" ( John 7:8).
The risen Christ gave commission to his disciples across time and space that they 'make disciple of all nations' and assured them that he was with them always till the end of time.
In giving this commission he was demanding the fullness of every disciple because the church was being built brick by brick on the living Word.
"I am the true vine" is another analogy. "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily/ And ye are complete in him," (Col.2:9-10) Consequently the principle of Association at every node had to be perfect. "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away."( John 15:2)
Not merely the twelve or seventy other disciples, which received the commission from word of his mouth but as we read in his prayer, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;( John 17:21-23) Unity of the Spirit is an essential part of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. 'I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one.'
Christ as the brightness of glory witnessed in his body. The logos aspect of the Son is the Witness so he explains, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."( John 5:19). So we shall see what this cloud consists of. Jesus in his prayer made clear of those whom his Father had entrusted before the worlds began. "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me."( John 17:16)
Jude in his epistle refers to them, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,/To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed." They are witnesses as the Son is appointed to judge the ungodly. (Jude vv.14-15) In short this cloud of witness are created from the Father Son relationship. The eternal Law serves the proof of their disobedience and as God is just their witness shall stand outside what Satan may bring up against. Also refer De.33:2.
We see them in the Book of Daniel, as witnesses, "And they brought him near before him./ And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." (Dan.7:13-14)
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us"(He. 12:1-2)
There have been a number of posts where I have brought up the fact that God chastises all those He loves ( Heb. 12:6; Proverbs 3:12). The alternative to that is eventually the judgment of our works; which of course without Christ leads to damnation as no one does good; not even one ( Rom. 3:11-12; Psalm 53:3).
What hasn't been discussed is the fact that those living through the same event could personally be experiencing chastisement or judgment depending on the state of the individuals in question. This can be illustrated in 1 Cor. 10:1-5 where everyone went through the sea but God's displeasure caused many to die. In fact; only Joshua and Caleb were to survive from that generation to enter the Promised Land. Moses himself could only see it from afar. This is not to say that all were lost who came out of Egypt who peerished in an eternal sense (as we see with Moses); but the pattern is there. God performed what He promised in deliverance; despite the complaints in the wilderness He provided for their needs.
This pattern can be seen in the judgments of Revelation. God uses the Tribulation to purify His people and bring a countless multitude to the Lord through martyrdom ( Rev. 7:9-11 etc). There are also those with the mark of God who may be so spiritually pure that chastisement is not really needed ( Rev. 7:1-8).
Clearly even today the attitude of someone in this life in a similar situation is vastly different depending if they are walking in the Spirit or in the flesh. Luke 12:48 shows the principle of more responsibility to those who are given much; that is we have the Spirit of God who has overcome the world living in us as saints. We have overcome the world but are still living in the world ( John 17:16-26).
We must always remember that Christ has won the war; we are in battles leading to the inevitable victory against a vanquished foe. Let your light shine therefore before men ( Matt. 5:16).
vv.1-9
Concerning his ministry Jesus was on his last lap moving towards Jerusalem. "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples"(16:21). He confided to his disciples what must occur there."How that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." The transfiguration is to be understood as a preview of the glory that awaited him. It was also an invitation to his disciples including Judas Iscariot, whom he knew would betray him. In his prayer he makes it clear. "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept,"( John 17:12) Once again we read that they were to keep it a secret till his resurrection.
"Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,/And was transfigured before them."
Why three instead of 12 disciples? The Spirit has shown us the representative nature of Salvation Plan of God. Ro.5: the Spirit makes Jesus and Adam as representatives of the Law of the Spirit and law of sin respectively.The Number Three refers Trinity as well as a tag for the Son. The New Jerusalem is foursquare "On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates." and "On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates."(Re.21:16-21) We see four cardinal directions measurement of each as that of man and angel. Pearl symbolizes the soul of our spiritual bodies where man component refers to the Son. The Spirit helped us understand the mystery of one pearl of great price (13:45-46) New Jerusalem on the east has three gates and identical with the other three. The three pearls are as one. (Every several gate was one pearl-v.21)
If God willing I shall take up with this topic in the coming Year. May God bless you and keep you all in Jesus name, Amen.
"Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord."(v.51)
Jesus having explained the parables to the disciples treats each of them as a scribe 'a man that is an householder.' They had understood what the power of the Spirit could do in their missionary circuit so the understanding came from their association with Jesus as the Word become flesh. These disciples were called before the foundation of the world. ( John 17:8)
Principle of Similitude sets Jesus Christ as the bread from heaven. The body of man is nourished by food. How it is set in terms of his body spirit and soul we can apply in terms of the Word sent forth. (Is.55:11) The preacher gives us an instance."Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days." The twelve disciples are a proof to it. Their association gives them an understanding of the kingdom of heaven as never before. Jesus as the Word become flesh.
When God created man it was 'in our image after our likeness' Consequently Trinity must be compared the like compared with the like. God breathed into the nostrils and made him a living soul. So truth is knowable. Heart can be most deceitful in man of which the despair of the prophet we read here. Despair of the conflict between law of sin against the Law of Spirit he speaks as an ongoing war, "My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war."(Je.4:19) Soul, sovereignty of which rests upon God and it is the reality of man. The nacre around which the word of God builds up compares to a pearl."Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:/Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."(vv.45-46) Man sells all as the disciples who left all behind in order to win Christ.
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:/Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it".
Parables of Jesus are mysteries, the centre of gravity of which falls in his example. His divinity and humanity in the manner he solved the two-in-one problem made the Word doable. It is of significance that in eternity we read the holy city of God is adorned with pearls, "And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl(Re.21:21) We are considering formation of soul as one pearl of great price. Having escaped condemnation we are many members of the body of Christ, collectively soul has become merged into one. So prayer of Jesus 'that they may be one, as we are,' is our reality. ( John 17:11)
It was not simply a question of ethics or moral that directed our lives but the Spirit. Our in-house tutor held a candle so our inner man may grow from glory to glory. It learned to trust, man child of our redemption.
So when Jesus says, 'Learn of me' we are exercising faith. If Jesus could forgive his enemies so can I. He shed his blood for us and he would having fulfilled the will of his Father say'It is finished'. This is the doctrine of Jesus where his life is on the line. In perfecting the will of his Father he testified faith. There is only one faith. It is the soul representing a child of God where faith is the DNA of our Father.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?/Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?(Mk.36-37)"
To recap: Body of Christian is to live as Christ did in his body; with the indwelling Spirit we give faith its best possible demonstration so we glorify our Savior Lord . This is Christian Living.
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."
He (Jesus) gave them power,
In the Prayer of Jesus we have it explained. "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him./And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."( John 17:2-3) Their power came the Word ("Thy word is truth") so God in the Father-Son Relationship gave them certain privileges in the kingdom of heaven as such what actions they did on the earth was on their behalf. For example it conferred knowledge with regards to the Son so Jesus did not have to talk to them in mysteries.("Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,"-13:11)The disciples were raw and untested and we shall see they were left to grow in their service with their ups and down, so in the end they were more as friends than as servants. "It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord"(v.25) Association therefore devolved from heaven where Jesus served as the Intercessor before his Father and historically began with the 12 the tag for the Gospel of Christ. The number served so where Judas Iscariot fell of another Apostle stepped into the breach.
" From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."( Job 1:7) There we have Satan's mobility to wreak havoc wherever and whenever possible.Power against unclean spirits necessitated a different approach. These spirits have no fixed abode even as Satan the prince of the power of air could go anywhere and attack the strongholds of man whenever it suited him. For this purpose Jesus Christ established the principle of Association. (10:40)
Thank you, there is no reason to post more you have answered my questions. I have studied John and all the New Testament and as you see this doctrine, I do not see it was taught in any of the books of the New Testament that we must believe it for salvation. What I do see is the only way of salvation is belief in Jesus our Lord Messiah the Son of God sent by the Father. Galatians 4:4
In John, I see a loving Son obedient to the Father who Jesus says is greater than Him. When Jesus was anointed with the Spirit of God without limit or measure the Father who dwelt in Jesus is the one who did the works. John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
All that Jesus had was given to Him from the Father, John 17:1-3 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Thank you for discussing this with me may our love for each other overcome any disagreement.
God bless,
RLW
yes, we were first married to the law: written in stones.
that was our school teacher.
we learned from our schoolmaster: that that law leads to death.
christ came and changed the law, from death to life by the life of the spirit indwelling us.
all creation (sinful flesh) died on the cross of christ.
only the body of christ arose, by the spirit of life, a new cretion, one flesh, one body.
2 timothy 1:1 ... according to the promise of life, which is christ jesus ....
john 17:22 and the glory thou gavest me, i have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one.
all by the works of christ's cross.
god bless you!
Thank you for this discussion, it is good to hear salvation is not dependent on this doctrine I have been told in many Churches I have attended I was not saved and was a heretic and shunned.
You know Greek better than I, but my understanding is the word Godhead which was added in the 1500s was translated twice and is misleading. Godhead is in the Bible 3 times, Acts 17:29, Greek word theios which means divine, Romans 1:20, Greek word theiotes which means divinity, divine nature, and Colossians 2:9 Greek word Theotetos which means deity.
The verse Colossians 2:9, in Jesus, dwelleth all the fulness of the deity of God, Jesus was filled without measure with God's Spirit/Holy Spirit John 3:34. John the Baptist said God had told him when Jesus was anointed/baptized John 1:32-33. God dwelt in Jesus and empowered Him by the Spirit. God gave Jesus power and authority Matthew 11:27. In John 1:14 we probably differ, God in Jesus dwelt/tabernacled among us. God was manifest in Jesus, John 12:49 John 14:10.
Mark 2:5-8 in Matthew 11:25 Things were hidden from the wise and prudent, Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees were the ones accusing Jesus of blasphemy, as we see in Matthew 9:6-8, the same event multitudes glorified God. Jesus was given full authority in Matthew 28:18 and John 17:2-3 that we should know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom the Father sent, same as all the introductions, greetings, and blessings given to the followers of Christ in the New Testament were from God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and in Revelation 21:22.
All authority has been given to Jesus by the Father until the last enemy, death is put under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 Revelation 20:14.
May our discussion inspire study.
God bless,
RLW
"But the importance is that everybody must settle it in their own hearts and minds about who Jesus is." So true. This has been discussed I think most know my understanding on this.
Was He just a great man? 1 Timothy 2:5 Numbers 23:19 1 Hosea 11:19 Corinthians 15:21-22 Was He just a great teacher? John 3:2 Was He a great healer? Luke 4:18-19 Was He a prophet? Deuteronomy 18:18 Was He the brother of Satan? No, He is the only begotten Son, John 3:16 1 John 4:14. Was He Michael the archangel? No, Hebrews 1:5. Or was He God in the flesh? 1 Timothy 3:16 manifest, (make clear, make known) John 5:19. Did Peter give the right answer? Yes.
This doctrine was developed almost 400 years after Jesus's crucifixion, today in Christianity salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity doctrine. If that is true. Why is it not taught anywhere in the New Testament?
If Jesus is God why would God have to anoint Him with His Spirit? Did Jesus do the works and the miracles or did God the Father by His Spirit/Holy Spirit? Is salvation at the mercy of the belief in the Trinity doctrine? Did Jesus say the Father was His God? Could God fulfill the law that was made for man? Did God give Himself or His Son that we would not perish? If we say Jesus is God, do we deny the Son?
Jesus said this, John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Acts 4:12 God bless,
RLW
Very little of the fear of the LORD is seen in the lives of people. Very little fear of the LORD is being witnessed among those who claim they have faith in GOD. How do I know this? Because the bible says "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM" Proverbs 9:10 It is evident among us, that there's not too many operating under the wisdom, and guise of the LORD. What do we need? Do we need a bright light to shine out the heavens causing us to go blind before we acknowledge the only ONE true GOD? People are either too distracted, or their bored out of their GORD. Have we invited too much of the world into our lives? Jesus said in John 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." With that we should be less inclined from going from the things of GOD, to being godly, or holy. Is that boring to some? Probably. Thanks to so many in our pulpits, who feel the need for worldly invention rather than good old fashioned prayer, many have sloped. Some people don't even know how to pray. Prayer should be instinctive for any child of GOD. Godliness, or holiness is looked at as Old fashioned. Who told you those lies? Let me guess. If a genuine fear of GOD doesn't start to make it's way back into the hearts of believers, there won't be a single person among you operating in God's love. On the contrary we will witness a forgery, and there won't be anything solid to grasp onto. Toss me a raft, and you get a twig instead, if we even get that! No more fear of GOD can be seen in our world. It has vanished like the wind. When was the last time you bowed your face to the ground? Not in front of people, because if your doing that you have something wrong with you. Is putting on a show in front of people showing me, and everyone else how holy you are? No, you have your reward. I sigh in disgust over these facts, and they are facts. We can either get it right, and change the way we do things, or you can be like clouds without rain. Offering nothing.
"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light./ But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"
The single eye here is the eye of faith. "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven"( John 17:1). The Spirit is laying emphasis on the eye of faith, which we see in the life of Elijah who laid the condition for Elisha to receive a double portion of his Spirit. "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me./And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so." (2 Ki.8:9-10) The double portion included that of the Son and of the prophet. The first one ties up the eye of faith to the Father as a double for the Son. It is thus the Spirit has set forth the redoubtable prophet as a stand-in. The same principle we have in the brazen serpent set up on the pole in the wilderness. "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."(Nu.21:9) The Spirit uses 'behold' in a special sense and here in past tense we see the eye of faith connecting man with the Son, albeit a symbol but determined in the divine Will as with the slain Lamb before the foundation of the world.
" Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,"(1:23). Eye of faith of Mary believed and also the word of God. "And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. "( Luke 1:38)
Peter healed a cripple and he first made sure he had his eye of faith open.And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us./And he gave heed unto them, "(Ac.3:4-7)
The Book of Ezekiel takes the spirit of truth to teach you, and lots of meditation.
Ezekiel 1:1 ..... and I saw VISIONS of GOD .... Keep these word at the front of you mind ....
Ephesians 4:4 ... ONE Spirit .... ONE Body ....
Ephesians 4:5 ... ONE God .... Father of ALL (creation, the four creatures).... above ALL .... through ALL ... IN YOU ALL ....
You will have to add many scriptures from the entirety of the word to see the prophecy; which is always the kingdom of God
All creation being made ONE FLESH with Christ and his Father.
A wheel within a wheel (Christ in you)
Ezekiel 1:20 Wheresoever the SPIRIT WENT, THEY WENT ...
Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit in you and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and keep my judgements an DO THEM.
John 17:22 And the glory that thou gavest me, I have given them, that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE.
God Bless YOU
(Part 1 of 2):
Thank you for sharing your understanding on this topic. I always enjoy my discussions with you. We are in agreement that God is love. In fact, God is Agape, the highest form of love that exists. We are in agreement that God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked. That's why He has provided a way for the wicked to be redeemed. We are in agreement that God does not want us to perish. Some take this word perish to mean cease to exist completely. Some teach annihilation. That, I do not agree with. I also don't agree that Hell is only the grave because both believers and non-believers alike are going to end up in a grave (unless the Lord comes for us first).
I agree that the bible tells in Ezekiel Chapter 18 that the soul that sinneth shall die. I believe it is the soul that makes up our entire being. Can our fleshly body exist without a soul? As far as salvation goes, did Christ come to redeem our flesh, or did He come to redeem our soul? I say that my soul has been redeemed, not my flesh. My flesh is rotten to the core! I agree that there are different degrees of punishment, but as you know, I also believe that whatever the degree of punishment is, it will be forever.
In my studies of the Greek, I have come to learn that the word for death means separation. This is why I believe that when our physical body of flesh dies, our soul will separate from our fleshly body. The body will rot and decay in the grave, not cease to exist as some say. I do not believe in soul sleep.
I do agree with you that eternal life is a promise. However, what we differ on is when this eternal life begins. For me, I believe I have eternal life right now. There are several verses in scripture that speak of eternal life/salvation being present tense ( 1 John 5:11, 1 John 5:13, John 17:3, John 10:28-30, John 3:36, John 4:14, 1 Timothy 6:12). These are just some verses that speak of eternal salvation being present, not future.
Part 2 to follow...