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Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
'In the beginning' is provided by the third office in Trinity. In organizing the narrative it is Spirit who makes it according to scriptures. The Ethiopian eunuch would not have had help in understanding the passage from Isaiah but the Spirit set up the encounter between Evangelist Philip and the Ethiopian official. Jesus settle in Capernaum and the passage reads,"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,/ The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;/The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up./From that time Jesus began to preach."(Matt.4:14-17)
The Spirit works on a need-to-know basis. So Jesus leaves behind his anonymity to begin his earthly ministry as though on cue.
'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word is both sound and a sign. Jesus was in humanity a sign. "And there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:/For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."(Matt.12:39-40)
When God commanded "Let there be light" there was light. We have God a Spirit explained in terms of the Word. The Word was God the Father. The Word became flesh, the Son. The Third office of the Spirit is in the department of Unity of the Spirit and sets tags on the basis of the earthly ministry giving us how to interpret the realities of heaven of the earth.
God is one. This Order relates to two principles of Wisdom and Power, which are the basis for all action including creation. Wisdom is feminine principle. So when God says, Let us make man in our image' it was implied. Male and female created he them. this image/likeness was in two senses:Eve was represented in Adam. This explains Ro.5 where Adam and Jesus are representative of two groups. Ro.5:12,17
2) Christ and the Bride. Adams' knowledge of 'Flesh of my flesh bone of my bones' owe to the breath of God. bone refers to the word, doctrine spiritual flesh 'formed of dust' earthy.
God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is the visible image of God. Adam is the son of God.( Luke 3:78) In Adam consequently Jesus is represented. To which we have the terms first Adam and 'last Adam' (1 Co.15:45)
Now the divine Will which owing to his Holiness, requires no correction and it is in the NOW. So symbol of the Lamb slain (Re.13:8) is simultaneous as the Lamb of God ( John 1:29). The same can be said of the Throne of God and of the Lamb.(Re.22:1) Jesus Christ as the visible image is same, yesterday, today and forever..He 13:8. For this reason God rested on the seventh 'day' which is not day as we know the term. God's Will as established as the Wisdom of Jesus who of God shall fulfill them.
Your quote, "but I note that Jesus was more than a thought & a plan, but a part of God's Being (as God's Spirit is) which God sent out to accomplish that Plan." Amen
I don't believe anyone see the Trinity in 1 John 1:1 by itself but I do believe it's seen in 1 John 1:1-7 and John 1:10 without having to add or take away from Scripture.
And, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" was dealt with between you and others.
However the first part of that verse "That which was from the beginning". Is easily seen that this portion of scripture takes a person (Jesus) and associates him with a beginning as mentioned in John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD.
Jn 1:10. He was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, and the world knew him not.
it's clear Jesus existed before his earthly ministry.
Are you going into your studies without a predetermined position?
Ronald with all due respect your passion and study in this seems to be to exterminate the view rather search to see if it is any truth to it.
I believe in what John 1:1 says that line up with scriptures from Genesis 1:1 on through Revelation.
Thanks Brother and I pray that God bless you in your journey as you continue in your studies.
Thanks again, I feel I am among the minority on this and I am grateful that people on this site are willing to discuss it. As I said to Chris "in the beginning" what John is referring to makes a big difference in understanding. If it is the Genesis creation or if it is the beginning of Jesus's ministry when He was anointed with the Holy Spirit. I agree with you the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit is eternal. God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and has always been.
If we look at 1 John 1:1 this is clearly the beginning of Jesus ministry, John says they have heard, they have seen with their eyes, they saw and touch Him with their hands, this is clearly not the Genesis creation beginning but Jesus's ministry. To me 1 John 1:1 does not show a trinity.
The word of God that is applied to Jesus is only once in the Bible and it was in Revelation 19:3 it was his name was called; Jesus was the word of God in the flesh God was manifested in Jesus but that does not mean Jesus preexisted His birth. I am still praying and studying for the truth, I to once believed Jesus preexisted but to many Scriptures do not agree.
Like Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Why are they two different things here?
Thanks again.
God bless,
RLW
On John 1:1-10.
I read your views on this when I got in from work late Friday night.
I had to do some catching up as I fell behind on my following.
I believe Chris and Giannis covered much on this topic far better than I would be able to.
What I did notice is there is some disparity in the usage of the Greek between you and them that is vital to understanding the truth in which you search.
However, I was just wanted to add something, if it haven't already been touched on.
Just to clear up my sloppy reply last night I was trying to not only showcase the Trinity in presented in the Gospel of John and 1 John 1. but to highlight words in the text that "describes" a being rather than focusing on "In the beginning"
I am 100 percent sure that John is not talking about Christ ministry as the beginning here.
However, if I gave you that it still doesn't settle the fact that the scripture doesn't only say "and the Word was with God," It says "AND THE WORD WAS GOD".
Verse 2 describes a time and location.
The same was IN THE BEGINNING "WITH GOD".
There is also verse 4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
When we are born again we become one with Christ by the Spirit.
This is a everlasting Spirit! The "Spirit of God"
We have a birth date.
The Spirit of God does not.
The Spirit of God is life and Christ was sent from God to give us life and make us sons of God!
Our bodies are hardware. Our life is software. Christ proceeded from the Father and took on a body/hardware and filled it with a preexisting Spirit that has NO beginning.
We have been quickened by a life giving Spirit that has NO beginning.
It seems in your replies you are focusing on verses that presents Jesus Humanity.
God bless
Thank you for your reply, yes, Genesis 3:15 tells us He will come by the seed of a woman, and that is exactly what we see happen in Mary. My understanding of John 1:1-5 is John's prolog at the start of his gospel like Genesis 1:1 is a prolog to the rest of Genesis 1. John starts with, In the beginning.
I see this beginning as the coming of the Messiah/Christ the beginning of Jesus's ministry because in John 1:6, John goes to John the Baptist as the witness of the one who was to come, the Light that darkness did not comprehend. This is the start of Jesus's ministry when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit and God made Him the Messiah/Christ, Acts 2:36.
Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, His role or ministry was to fulfill the law and the prophets in confirming the new covenant by His death and resurrection from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Daniel 9:27 is also about the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry but that is another topic. Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come in Daniel. As I have discussed with Chris my understanding is Jesus was the beginning of the plan of God and like John 1:10 it is through Him not by Him.
Jesus, God' Son is first in God's plan of creation, and everything was created in and through Him and Jesus was begotten in the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Colossians 1:20. I know you may also not agree with that but that is how I understand, it is God the Father who is the creator.
The light was the word of God that dwelt in Jesus, the glory of the Father that dwelt in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 4:6.
God bless,
RLW
Part two,
Hebrews 2:7 Jesus was fully human and was tempted just as we are Hebrews 4:15 God cannot be tempted, James 1:13. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 Philippians 2:9 again my understanding is all was in and through Jesus in the plan and forethought in the mind of God, logos.
1 Peter 1:19-20 Yes in God's plan my understanding the Greek is not by whom but through whom the Greek word dia, same as in John 1:3 it is through Him not by Him. In Jesus and through Jesus being the first in God's plan came everything like you said "God's Plan & Purpose for redemption" the new creation that was in God's plan.
Jesus was the beginning in God's plan and was begotten in Mary's womb. Like today where you and I are to God it is the same as if we were there with Him on the new earth and His plan has been completed. He is the beginning and the end, and it started with Jesus His Son before any creation and in and through Jesus came all and in the fulness of time He was brought forth into the world.
As in John 1 God's word was manifested in the flesh of His Son Jesus. When Jesus was anointed and became the Messiah/Christ by the Holy Spirit, God was in Jesus and the words Jesus spoke were God's words. The light that shined through Jesus was God, the works were done by the Spirit of God in Jesus, all was done for the glory of God.
I know you may not agree but that is my understanding and if you have any other questions, I will reply to the best of my ability, I own you that. Can I answer all, no I cannot, there are many verses that I am still in search of the truth of.
Love you brother and God bless.
RLW
I have followed you and others on this great discussion!
Thanks for giving your understanding.
You stated the "beginning" in John 1:1-10 refers to Christ earthly ministry.
I believe we should ask ourselves "What was Christ role in those 3 years?
We know that Jesus's death brought in the new covenant that was Prophesied to come in the OT, ( Jeremiah 31:31) "also other verses". but what was his ministry or Role during those 3 years?
During Jesus 3-year ministry he sought out the ( lost sheep of Israel ).
John is identifying Jesus as "the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And as the "true Light, which lighteth (every man) that cometh into the world". Here John is not talking about Jesus earthly ministry, the lost sheep of Israel or his role.
JESUS ROLE AND THE ENDING OF THE OLD COVENANT IS ANOTHER TOPIC, BUT I BELIEVE THE 3 YEAR MINISTRY WAS ENDING THE OLD COVENANT AND HIS DEATH WAS THE BEGINING OF THE NEW COVENANT.
Jesus as savior was announced in Genesis 3:15.
In John 5:39 Jesus said "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's ministry as savior was performed in the Old Testament in types, JOHN IS NOT ADDRESSING THE BEGINNING OF NEITHER OF THOSE.
I would like to highlight something in John 1:1-10.
We see Jesus as the word, as God, as life, as light and as the "creator in verse 10",
Jesus is called the light, and that light didn't begin at Christ earthly ministry according to verse 9
This light is also mentioned in 1 John 1:1-7. God is also referenced as that light!
We see the Trinity in the light as the Father and the light as the Son as the same in these passages.
You have the father the son and the Holy Spirit exhibited in John 1:1-10 and 1 John 1:1-7.
God bless.
Here we have a clear proof that the divine Will of the Father is complete since the fulfilling aspect of it is devolved on the Son. God is one. ("Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"-De.6:4) In its function the Wisdom aspect must work with the Power principle of God so Trinity explains power and glory of the eternal God. In short order of the kingdom of God is the Law or the Word. John 1:1 states that the Word was with God. On the contrary Satan is the father of confusion. Satan sins from the beginning so Jesus Christ was manifest to destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever has resisted him is the son of perdition. Then as now.
In the divine Will the Lamb slain before the foundation of the Word is determined. Against that we need consider all the martyrs from Abel onwards to which Jesus alludes at the end of woe to ye discourse in Matt.23. God the Father had made provisions for the collateral damage of sin. Against the slain Lamb before the foundation of the world slaughter of the firstborn has to be weighed. Who shall accuse God of genocide or crime against humanity.
By the same token how shall we compare the murder of six million Jews in the 20th century by what whole scale slaughter in Gaza or in West Bank being carried out with impunity? God has set his Son as the slain Lamb for the whole mankind. God is the Judge.
(See under M-Mode/ Law of Gradation)
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
This Docetic position stems from a belief that 'Deity cannot unite with flesh', but it doesn't mean that Scriptures aren't used to prove their belief, but with that foundation, their mental capabilities are engaged to re-visit Scriptures with alternative viewpoints. But there would be those who have from young age been taught that the incarnation is impossible (as you would know how RCs are indoctrinated from an early age in other matters, viz. Mary, saints, indulgences, penances, the Mass, etc.); or others by their own research from books, the Web, etc., where they can find a 'better' logic to this mystery, than just accepting what the Word states.
Thus we have the apostolic epistles, which essentially are pastoral letters directed to Churches for teaching, encouragement, dealing with problems/matters arising, & refuting the teaching of others that were contrary to what they had been taught. I always go back to 1 John in this 'docetic' regard, as Gnosticsm was rife then & John had to deal with it (see 1 John 1:1,2; 1 John 2:18 (the anti-Christ spirit, cf 1 John 4:2,3); 1 John 2:22,23). GBU.
Part one
I thank you so much for discussing this and thank you Giannis. I am not the best at explaining my understanding.
I know John 1:1 we see it differently but what beginning makes the difference, it was the word of God in Jesus as Jesus never said it was His words but the Father's words, and God was manifested in Jesus John 1:14 2 Corinthians 5:19. In Colossians as well as Ephesians that is similar My understanding Paul is talking about the risen Christ as faith in Christ, redemption that is in Christ Jesus, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, we are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus, the risen Jesus.
I read what you replied to Momsage on this and I hope you are not considering me in the Gnostic camp. My understanding comes totally from Scripture and the Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in Scripture, it was hundreds of years after the deaths of the apostles, as in Matthew 28:19 is taken as the Trinity and many churches abide by this today, but nowhere in Scripture do we see anyone baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, what we see is only in the name of Jesus?
I know you will not agree but to say Jesus is God this verse stands out to me 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
See part 2
John 1:3-5
3 All things were made by JESUS; and without JESUS was not any thing made that was made.
4 In JESUS was life; and the life was the Light of men.
5 And the Light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Around 2000 years ago, The Word made flesh - the Word is GOD, self-executing - He said: My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. O yes, it still was the fourth GOD's Day, that is, around 4000 years after Adam, so GOD the Father still was working in His works by JESUS. Both are One, though two distincts Persons. By the way, No man hath seen GOD at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the BOSOM of the Father, He hath declared Him.
Maybe He still has not declared Him for you.
Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.
Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.
Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Part 4
I will make this the last and probably short.
John 1:1 I see John's prolog as the beginning of Jesus ministry, not the Genesis creation, we see this in 1 John 1:1-3 seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers. John says they heard, they saw, they touched this Word of life. and this word was manifested, Jesus being the tabernacle of God with us on earth.
I will stop for now and study over what you have posted. I do thank you Chris so much for the time and effort you put in this, and I will go over it.
God bless,
RLW
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
Your second question: "If Jesus was preexisting, an immortal being, God the son. How can an immortal being die?" There are varying beliefs about Jesus' position in Heaven prior to His incarnation. I rather simply accept John 1:1-18, John 14:10,11, John 16:27,28, 1 John 5:7, that Jesus came forth from God. Did He come out as a Divine Being in the presence of God, to be made a human for the sake of death, or did God take His Own Word & give Him flesh for this very purpose? We don't have a problem of God sending out His Spirit & the Spirit's indwelling in every believer (can He even be dissected?), but to send His Word out, clothe Him in a body, unnerves many.
"How can an immortal being die? How can God be tempted...How can God die?" God is Spirit - He is Immortal - He can never die. No one, having a spirit from God, can die - the body will perish, but who can destroy the spirit which cannot be touched by age or man's devices? But if the immortal is given a body, as Jesus received, or even as we also have to house our spirits, then the body will die but the spirit lives on. Can God take on flesh? A mystery no human can fully fathom, but truly "a body hast thou prepared me" ( Hebrews 10:5-7, taken from Psalm 40:6-8). So Jesus could be tempted & could die whilst in the body, and so in His complete identification with sinful men in need of salvation, Philippians 2:6-8 reminds us:
"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." "thought it not robbery" = Jesus didn't grasp onto/retain His equality with God, but 'emptied Himself' ('ekenosen'), laying aside His Glory, to become a Man, obedient to death that which was the Father's Plan.
This word was used to characterize our believing scripture like 1 John 5:7. You called it a trinity "doctrine" but I just call it reading the Bible as written. So, if you think my belief is a doctrine then I suppose your belief is a doctrine- that would only be fair. Just want a level playing field for whatever is discussed.
I think believing the Bible as written is important without distortion or bias, but I believe many things discussed in forums like this, such as the trinity, are not salvation issues. I've never met another Christian who has ever believed this, either. There are more that believe baptism, tithing or taking communion are higher on the essentials list than believing in trinity. Some churches have pastors that don't agree on the trinity. It is admittedly a confusing concept that humans cannot easily relate to, because we don't have 1 be 3 things and also 3 be 1 in our world.
God is greater than our comprehension and I trust that when God's Word says things like John 1:1 or 1 John 5:7 that it is true. I am aware of your objection with the translation, but I believe it is already accurately translated and other scriptures support it too. I also think there's a tendency to target the translation for verses people don't like, but often the verses people do like aren't equally dissected. This leads to a distorted understanding in my opinion.
I'm curious what you think about the last two verses shared about Jesus being the Alpha and Omega. To me that says that Jesus is God, but I'm sure you've read this before and have reconciled this with your belief somehow, so I'm open to hearing that. But if you want to save it for another day that's fine too. God bless.
I did some searching online and couldn't yet find any church that believes what you said. A website for Orthodox Christians also said you don't have to believe in trinity to be saved, so I question the validity of this belief.
Is the goal of this is to demean Christians who believe what the Bible says about God in John 1:1, 1 John 5:7? Believing what the Bible says is not a doctrine, but denying it or twisting it can be considered a manmade doctrine.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 KJV
The Alpha and Omega is the Lord Jesus.
"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:6-7
This says the Alpha and Omega "will be his God". Do you agree?
Does this not plainly say that the Lord Jesus is God?
If Jesus was not God, then why would the Bible say so many times that He IS God, like in John 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:16, Isaiah 9:6, and His own name Immanuel means "God with us". One would think if God wrote a Bible to convince us that Him dying for us was not Him but someone else and to tell us that salvation is from someone else and not through Him, then why would it say so many times Jesus is God. People called Him God, His name was God, He has the power of God, and the Bible says He is God. But I'm supposed to believe that He isn't though?
It is good to hear we are understanding each other better as brothers in Christ. I will in the future give my understanding of John 1:1. The truth is what is important regardless of what we have been taught.
Have you ever asked the question is salvation is dependent on the belief in the Trinity?
God bless,
RLW
Thanks for the clarification. If we already discussed this months or years ago I just don't remember, so thank you for explaining. I have a better idea of what you meant now. I'm glad you're a Christian.
My comment didn't have much to do with baptism but your comment did and it seems you were making a distinction between Matthew 28:19 and examples in the Bible where people were baptized. I would have to review to know what if anything was mentioned as being said.
I don't believe people have to believe in a Godhead to be saved. I think you were thinking that was a requirement. I don't believe this is a salvation issue, but just trying to understand the Bible and arrive at the truth. I believe that is the goal here.
You wrote: "Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian."
In the last 50 years or more I've attended many different Christian church denominations and I've never once heard of anyone saying you must believe in a trinity to be saved. Are you sure that is what someone said? This not what typical Christians believe. Can you give an example of what specific Christian church denomination and location or if it was just one person who said this?
I once went to a Calvary Chapel where the guy gave a sermon that said if you don't vote for Obama then you're not a Christian. But I knew enough to know that guy was wacko and his cult beliefs did not represent others in the calvary chapel or in Christianity. It's a common logical fallacy to generalize an entire group of people for one individuals actions or beliefs. What's ironic is Obama is a muslim and pro-abortion, which is a very anti-Christian belief.
But as for not believing Jesus is God. If John 1:1 said and the Word was NOT God, then I would find this belief more credible, but it says the opposite. Jesus is the Word: Revelation 19:13. He's also the I AM: John 8:58, Exodus 3:14.
I understand your passion and I believe you may have misunderstood parts of my post; I am sorry. Your first question is yes, I am a follower of Jesus. Jesus answered the scribe and said, Mark 12: 29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And yes, I do, but am I perfect, NO.
I do not belong to any denomination; I have attended many denominations but Catholic and I am in my 70s and there is not a church close to me now that I feel comfortable going to. John 1:1 I will say my understanding is different and too long to explain in this reply maybe another thread.
What I meant about Matthew 28:19 is in this verse Jesus told them to go baptizing people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. People use this to support the Trinity doctrine but nowhere in the New Testament is anyone baptized in the name of the three, people were only baptized in the name of Jesus not that there was no baptizing in the New Testament, but they were only baptized in the name of Jesus.
As you listed Acts 4:10-12 only by the name of Jesus and "none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And that name is who they baptized people in the New Testament not of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Now in many churches, a person must believe in the Trinity for salvation, and if they do not confess the Trinity, they are not a Christian. Can you show me where that was said or was taught anywhere in the New Testament?
I am sorry we do not agree on this, and I hope this helps you understand my last post, and may we be guided by the Holy Spirit in our study for the truth, we are one body.
God bless,
RLW
I don't remember who believes what in this forum, but I feel a duty to defend Jesus and defend the truth, so I will share God's word. I feel that's the least I can do as a Christ follower. Do you consider yourself a Christ follower?
If you don't believe Jesus is God then I wonder if you believe Christians are in violation of the 1st of the 10 commandments? Because if you don't think Jesus is God or divine then you might think putting Jesus #1 in their life is bad? If you can explain your religious doctrine or denomination more that would be helpful.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
It is like Matthew 28:19
I'd like to ask about your comment, "the baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit but nowhere do we see it in the New Testament all were baptized in the name of Jesus and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
I don't totally understand this comment yet. Are you saying you don't see baptizing isn't in the new testament? Because you replied with a verse that is in the new testament, so you seemed to have refuted your own comment?
And the latter half of your comment is "...and only in the name of Jesus are we saved."
But the Bible says precisely that in Acts 4:12. It says:
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12 KJV
It says the name of Jesus Christ is through whom we are saved. It says it plain as day. Did I understand your comment correctly?
Also it flat out says Jesus is God in John 1:1 "Word was God" and it says Jesus is the Word in at least a couple other verses
Command numbers are tags used by the Spirit to distinguish from numbers of numerical value.
The Spirit in organizing the narrative of the Scripture uses numbers in a manner different from its normal use. Tags are different from command number.
In the vision of The Woman Clothed with the Sun , the red dragon has ten horns which is a command number to indicate judgment as in the Decalogue. The Spirit indicates that the dragon has been already under judgment. (Re.12:4). The number 10 refers as a tag as in the measurement: an omer is one tenth of an ephah (Ex.16:36). To indicate man's life multiples of 10 serve as tag. Similarly the Spirit intends a generation by 10x10 or 10x100 or 10x1000 to indicate end times. For example in the matter of gospel the command number is 12. Multiples of 12 in the upper room before the day of Pentecost held 120(1210) in number. On Mount Sion the number of first fruits are counted, 144,000. "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads (Re.14:1)". Number 144,000 is a command number meaning the divine Will with regards to what constitutes first fruits (12x12x1000).
Forty days indicate time imposed on man in preparation for fulfilling divine Will. "Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments (Ex.34:28-NIV). On the other end Jesus Christ was seen after resurrection for forty day before he ascended to the heavens.(Ac.1:3)
'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us ( John 1:14). This testimony is number 4. Number 4 has significance in terms of the world that is set on four cardinal directions. (Re.7:1) Salvation is thus in terms of four gospels and the judgement aspect as in the vision of the four carpenters, - Ze.1:20.
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs" The lights as sign was in the divine Will.
How does the Spirit set the will of the Father in Re.12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." What does the crown of 12 stars? Gospel of God (The Word was God- John 1:1). The command number 12 refers to the Gospel of Christ and the 12 Associates (disciples.) Compare the seven stars in the hand of Jesus Christ in Re.1:20 ("The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.") The Number 7 indicates the will of the Father is complete. So it is the Fellowship of God (the Ancient of days) and the Man (Christ) we are looking at.
The Sun and the Moon to divide the day from the night. Their light is derived from divine command, "Fiat Lux!"
"And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."(1:5)
The first day denotes the first bullet point in the Abstract. It shall lead to a morning in the new heaven and the new day. (Re.21:1)
2. "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."(Ge.1:16)
The Holy Family figuratively a woman, standing on the moon reveals the obedience of the Son while the Son overhead is God the Father. The church has a body called to be holy. So she is clothed with the sun. Re.12:4 tells of another story. The Fall of man and the casting off Israel as a nation is stated thus, "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. " Israel is not part of the man child. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."
Israel in the wilderness(12:6)
The entire book is from the fulfillment aspect of the Son while the Genesis began with the complete and perfect will of God the Father. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" so began the creation account. Instead we have the Fellowship of God with Man in the inaugural vision of 'the one like unto the Son of man'.(Re.1:13-17) Here we have the Ancient of the days and the Man evocative of the night vision of Daniel. (Dan.7:9) They are superimposed, however. "And out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword" is how the Spirit gives a concrete imagery to the word of God sent forth..(Is.55:11). "And his voice as the sound of many waters." is the reality of heaven in his Alpha and Omega aspect. "The Lord sitteth upon the flood; yea, the Lord sitteth King for ever."(Ps.29:10). The description of Christ in vv13-14 "clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle./His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;" does not hint of the cross or nail marks for a reason. We are looking at Jesus Christ the same (Heb.13:8) and "The Word was with God." ( John 1:1)
The Book of Genesis began with the Abstract of seven days. Instead we have here series of sevens, seven candles, seven trumpets, seven vials indicating the emphasis is on the things which are shortly come to pass, "for the time is at hand."(1:3) The emphasis is on the saints redeemed from the earth' and are set in heavenly places. We see the great congregation in the night vision of Daniel. These form the cloud of witness (and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven,-Dan.7:13)
They are part of the holy family and we are also told one third of these shall be cast to the earth ("And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: Re.12:4). In this context we appreciate the warning of Jesus Christ to the seven churches.
Mark 8:30 is one of several verses indicating Christ told people including the Disciples NOT to tell anyone who He was (namely; the Son of God). He spoke in Parables to hide things from all except those called and chosen (see Matthew 13:10).
When we survey the narrative of the Gospels it leaves us dumbfounded as to how anyone could not realize who Christ was. After all John the Baptist after baptizing a large amount of the entire population including the Pharisees warning them of who was to come identified Christ ( John 1:32 and recorded in Luke 3:22 as being accompanied by a voice from heaven). Only the Spirit could reveal this truth as we see in Matthew 16:17.
There are several reasons for this blindness. One is the god of this world who is mentioned as blinding men to the truth as illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:4. The second was in the hidden counsels of God more than likely (See Deut. 29:29). If the wicked knew who He was they would have stopped it because it would have led to their guilt in the act and He would inevitably be Resurrected. Satan also may have not been involved because it would mean His defeat as prophesied in Genesis 3:15 (although he is insane enough to ignore what he probably should have known). Israel should have recognized that the suffering servant would also come back as conquering king. They would have waited until He established that Kingdom on earth without having a heart to truly worship Him; reminiscent of the group who finally rebels at the end of the Millennium period.
We need to squarely face this fact in terms of how the unregenerate view Christ. Any affinity one may have for Jesus apart from the grace of God bringing repentance is from a false Christ in our imaginations which inevitably brings a works based attempt at salvation or considering Him a great teacher or Prophet as was the case of those in Matthew 16:14. Church is the congregation of the Holy not a social club for comfort.