Discuss John 1 Page 42

After the Hebrews writer warns believers about apostasizing (i.e. turning away from the faith), he declares that after all he has just said (in the earlier verses), he is confident that his readers won't desert the Lord & will show the fruit of their salvation ( Hebrews 6:9).

He then describes how they do behave as Christians: showing Christ's love to others particularly ministering to the needs of other believers (v 10).

And in verse 11, he continues with that thought that they should be diligent (to do with great effort & zeal), making sure that they persevere in their Christian walk (i.e. not to slacken off), so that their hope of Heaven after their death will be certain.

He's basically saying (using modern terms), the Christian life is not 'a bed of roses'. We use that expression to denote when one relaxes & enjoys one's achievements without a care in the world. But the writer is saying that people who think that way, are very likely going to fall into Satan's traps & be swallowed up. 1 Corinthians 10:12, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." This is the same thought: "standeth" means the one who is over confident & then relaxes because he thinks that he won't slip away.

The Christian is indeed secure in his salvation, because his salvation is based not on what he has done, but on what Christ has done for him. Yet, he must also be alert to Satan's traps, & walk carefully in this life (& not be slothful, lazy as a believer v 12). He will then know that his life is following the pattern laid out before him & so when the end comes, that his hope (his waiting) for Heaven is a true hope & without fear of being rejected. The true believer will have both a full salvation & also make the full effort to walk worthy of God's call upon his life.

Do what ever you feel is right. It is Christ's love for you that will get you into Heaven not getting a tattooo. He sees you as the beautiful person that HE created. Not anyone else, and if you want a tat to show the world around that you are his follower loyal and faithful. Then do it for him. Don't let people even Fellow believers spout their feelings on it. Christ sends us all on our own journey.But I will tell you this I smoke and Icant quit. I prayed and prayed and agonized over it, feeling as though it shouldn't be such a struggle. Old Testament scripture making me feel awful, a horrible sinner. And I am a horrible sinner, we all are, he came for us not the righteous. But back to smoking, other fellow Christians have a lot to say about smoking to, but it actually helped me find people who were terrified for their souls but were not willing to seek forgiveness because they couldn't quit. They have been made to feel so horrible about it, that they feel as though their fate was sealed. Some people preach a smoker won't get into Heaven and sorry to say they are full of it. Had I not smoked they never would have talked to me about it. The Lord Of Heaven, Creater of they Universe, O Almighty God himself he loves you. And if you want the whole World to know you love him back who is it to tell you otherwise. The cross is the biggest symbol of love and forgiveness, I think we should plaster it everywhere so if ya wanna put it on your arm well the devil will know this place is taken.lol

Though there are many Scriptures to support the after life & into eternity with God, there are very few that can fully support the immediate passage of the spirit & soul after death takes its grip. Clear portions, as Mishael has showed, about the penitent thief & Lazarus are often used & I would add to his list: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8. Herein, we see Paul's hope that when his "earthly tabernacle is dissolved" (or, passed away in death), God will provide a heavenly one. In fact, he says that he is confident (convinced) that while we're in this body on Earth, thus we're absent from the Lord. Rather, his desire was to be absent from his body (leave his mortal body behind at death), & be found in the Lord's presence. To me, these verses & those others given, show that at death, the spirit that cannot be destroyed by death does not linger aimlessly near a grave or under water, but returns to God Who gave it. For those who've rejected Christ, their spirits too are held captive awaiting coming judgement.

All people can ONLY be saved by FAITH: faith being the implicit trust & looking to God to save them though not having seen Him. For the Jew, they received the Law from God & though none could fully obey its demands, it served to show them there sin, the need for sacrifice & of course, a faith that looked only to God & looked forward to God to provide a better Sacrifice. Most Jews didn't do this, though some did ( Hebrews 11) but God is the Judge of their hearts. For those without the Law (Gentiles), the laws written within us condemned us ( Romans 2:12-16) & we have to stand before God on that basis &/or the rejection of God's Sacrifice. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" ( John 1:12). And of course, we receive Him only by faith, not by works or sacrifice.

I can't answer your last question; it must be something wired in us to know what & where 'our shame' (our less honourable) body parts are.

Thank you for your brief testimony, my ex-Muslim brother. This has been an often spoken experience by Muslims, that they've had a vision or a dream that has made them to consider Who this Jesus is. The Jesus spoken of in al-Quran is very different from the Jesus in the Bible, as He is far greater than any Prophet. This experience has got them questioning why their Imam speaks so badly about Christians & the many accusations made against them & the Bible. So, our Great God is working here & there & I am truly glad that God has had His Hand upon you to shed this Light upon you & give you a revelation.

I understand your difficulty in seeking out a Church, & maybe if you are in a 'closed' country, even those Christians are probably meeting in small groups hidden away. But you have the Bible & are reading it often: the Words in there are Words of Life powered by God's Spirit. Pray for understanding in your reading & wisdom to be able to live those glorious Truths in your life. When I used to speak with Muslims in Pakistan about them reading al-Quran in Arabic, they confessed that they did not understand what they were reading (as Urdu was their language, even with a similar script to Arabic). But they still faithfully read it as that was the right thing to do to please Allah. But you have a Teacher with you to help you understand & others here to assist when we can.

You said that Jesus called you, in your vision. Since you've not had anyone to help you further, I need to remind you that coming to Christ is not like coming or joining a religion. There is a special work that God does in a person's heart & this work starts when a person confesses he is a sinner & is separated from God ( Romans 3:23 & 10:9). When a person truly repents of his sin, then God assures him that He will forgive him (1 John 1:9) & bring him into His family ( John 1:12). When a person is so changed, we say that he is "born again" = made spiritually new (see John chapter 3). May God bless you.

Thank you for taking your time to read this marvelous scripture. This website helps me a bunch with my studies!! Much thanks and love!

As i read its amazing how we need both law and grace,man creats and enforce the law and King of Kings gives us a will to chose.The truth is we need both in order to live in this world

I am thankful for I can use freely to post the Bible verse on the twitter.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. ( Isaiah 1:18)

If you sincerely put your trust in Jesus Christ knowing that he, being the sinless Son of God, laid his life down to pay for our sins, was crucified, dead and buried, and then raised from the dead, you will be saved and fully forgiven.

He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. ( Psalm 103:10-12)

But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. ( Acts 13:37-39)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. ( Romans 3:23-26)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Abigail, I know this illness is taking a toll on your emotions. Not your faith in God. It is time to feed your faith.

If he will allow you, lay hands on your son by holding his hand; and pray these scriptures (below) aloud. We have 3 gates on our bodies: the Eye Gate (reading the words)

the Ear Gate that hears the scriptures spoken; and the Mouth Gate, speaking the Words of Life.

All of these things feed our spirits and our faith grows on what God says, rather than the doctors. Copy the scripture names down.

Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

Jeremiah 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.

Jeremiah 33:6 Behold, I will bring him health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers.

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

Speak faith when doubt raises its head.

Pray: " Come Holy Spirit. Help Me."

Listen to praise music.

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Rev. Autrey, indeed Isaiah 9:6 does say that (Jesus) will be called Everlasting Father & the Mighty God. He was & is every part that completes the Godhead as revealed to us. In Romans 8:9 we also read "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Here Paul speaks of both God's Spirit & Christ's Spirit - self same Spirit without Whom, the Godhead would be incomplete & we would not be children of God, indwelt & sealed by Him.

And John 14:17, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." If one removes God the Father & say that Jesus is now our God (post incarnation), then one is compelled to do likewise to His Spirit. If one does not do so, then we would have a Binity, & that too is unacceptable.

Re: John 1:1 ff: true, the Word of God is God - God cannot be seen without the His Word & His Spirit. But why should John say, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."? Wouldn't it be easier to say that "In the beginning God was there" & just leave off "the Word"? So just say, that "this God then became flesh & dwelt among us". That would easily transfer the position of God to Jesus on Earth. But maybe, the Word has something to do with that part of the Godhead that was sent to the Earth to become a man & to fulfil the Father's Will in bringing forth the Word to His people & be the sacrificial Lamb for His people.

You cannot twist the Word, to suit your perceptions. Revelation 22:18-19

Search Kings, Chronicles, Psalms and you'll not see the name of Jesus. David perceived the promise of the Savior.

Isaiah 6: he SAW the Lord. "Saw" is a vision sent from God. His first thought was of his unclean lips.

He was Hearing from the Godhead: verse 8.

"US". That is all 3 persons together, speaking, what his message was.

He, The Father, sent His Word (Jesus) and Healed (action, the Holy Spirit) them. 'Them' is always humankind.

Reverend:

What you believe is your perception. It's not Scripture. To teach it to babies and lambs is responsibility you do not want to pay. Write a Book. Don't touch the little ones.

Romans 16:17-18 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.2 John 1:9 - Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth NOT in the doctrine of Christ, HATH NOT God. He that ABIDES in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. Romans 16:18 - For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Further comment: to the body of Christ: you have the responsibility to search out in the Bible Yourself, what is truth and what is Not Truth. Start in Romans.

Mishael

Dear Chris:

Yes, I am saying to you that "there is no God in Heaven but Jesus!"



Let me explain:

In Isaiah 9:6 we read this of Jesus: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, and the Mighty God. " Did you get that? This Scripture says that the child that was born to us that Christmas day is the Mighty God, and no amount of human reasoning can change it.



Luke 1:42-43 says this of this child: "Elizabeth gave a glad cry and said to Mary, YHWH God has blessed you above all other women, and your Child is blessed. What an honor this is, that the mother of God would visit me." Translated" The mother of the Mighty God.

So by saying that "He sent forth His Word clothed in flesh to do his will," you are going against everything that the prophet Isaiah and Elizabeth just said to us. Meaning, the "Word" mentioned in John 1:1 is not God's spoken word. It is God himself. So we can read verse 14 like this: "So Jesus (meaning God himself) became flesh and lived among us!"

See, what you are doing wrong is not understanding how God as Jesus speaks to us in the Gospels; i.e., in Trinitarian form. He speaks to us as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all three names of the same God. This should not be surprising to us because as people made in Jesus' image, all three of our names refer to us.

So when Jesus says the "Father sent me" he is speaking of himself by his other name. But we call him Jesus because he wants us to.



To this end, we see YHWH God saying to Moses in Exodus 3:14, "Just tell them 'I Am' has sent you." But by God just giving Moses the unfinished name "I Am," we are left short of the full revelation. This is why we see Jesus in the Gospels finishing the revelation of the name he gave to Moses by saying, "I Am"... Jesus.

So yes, there is no God in heaven except Jesus!

Stay safe,

Rev. Autrey

Disagree. John 1:1 contradicts what you just said. It says "the Word was God" and you just said the Word was "not" God.

This reminds me how Genesis 3:3-4 Eve said they'll die if they eat the fruit and satan said "Ye shall not surely die." - the exact opposite of the truth.

Satan is the father of lies, he deceives people, even people who think they are right, he's usually the one behind it all.

So, since you're claiming something other than John 1:1 is true, how do we know you're not the one who is deceived? What is the evidence that what you're saying is the truth and not a heresy from satan?

God bless...

John 1:1 The Word of God is NOT God. The Word was sent forth the represent and articulate The Most High's repentance to Israel, which was 'lost'. A verse 18 testifies: No man has seen God at any time. This fact cannot be denied. Christ was the 'light to the Gentiles' at Isaiah 49:6 foretold. Paul also testifies that The Most High is the only one having immortality and no man has seen him. These facts tell us Christ, the Word of The Most High is not God.

Indeed, Revelation 12:9 is cited, which exposes another humbling truth: We have all been deceived by Satan the Devil. His deceit has been so thorough that billions worship Christ as God, unknowingly. The Most High has a personal name at Psalm 83:18, Yahovah, yet we never hear His Holy Name. Why? Who wants to erase that name? Satan the Devil, who has deceived the whole world.

However, we have now entered a period of enlightenment, if we choose to pursue it. Daniel 12:4 tells us that 'the book', the Bible, would 'shut up' and 'sealed' until when? Until 'the time of the end'. Few would argue that we are NOT living in 'the time of the end'. Yet, how many of us are prepared to accept and absorb the 'knowledge increased' promised?

Indeed, you have just been presented with several new revelations: the worship of Christ is IDOLATRY, for he is not Yahovah and we have all been 'deceived', tricked, fooled by Satan, the Father of the Lie. We have learned that the Word of God has been 'sealed' and 'shut up' for millennia until now. Now, we have access to the truth if we want it. However, to have access to it, we must be 'born again', spiritually recreated as a new creation. Can we receive it? Pray for Spirit from Yahovah, The Most High Elohim and He will give it to you. This is what Christ died and shed his blood for - the truth. Shalom dear ones.

Divorce is adultery in the bible. I have been divorced and remarried and believe Jesus Christ has the power to forgive my sins. I believe Jesus Christ has the power to forgive any sin because he is judge. As long as we repent in sincerity and do not continue in the sins we have repented for. I believe divorced people can go to heaven but thats between you and the Lord. Pray to him repent and ask for guidance.

Matthew 5:32 - But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

John 8:2-11

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hi Nancy, since I wrote to you on this matter, I will respond again. As we know, that "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." ( John 4:24). That is, God in His Essence is a Spiritual Being without a body as we know. And in His fullness, He has shown to us His Word & His Spirit that are Him & proceed from Him. The Word we know was given a Body for the purposes of bringing God's Message to His people & to lay down His Life for mankind ( John 1:1-14; 3:16). God's Spirit was sent out of God's Being to accomplish His Purposes on Earth, including the indwelling of the believer, returns back to God when God's Will has been fully accomplished on Earth.

Even though I can't give you any clear Scripture to show God withdrawing His Spirit back into Himself, we have to surmise in our understanding of all of revealed Scripture we have, that as God sends out His Word & His Spirit, He must also withdraw them when His Work is done. Romans 8:26,27 tells us that the Holy Spirit helps us in our prayers, when we are ignorant on how to pray or what to pray. And it says that the Spirit helps us by lifting our 'deficient, uninformed' prayers to the Father, with His 'groans' or 'utterances' which we don't perceive. This the Spirit does because of His constant connection to the Godhead (as even Jesus had & enjoyed on Earth), & He is well able to translate our prayers into valid utterances that conform to the Will of God. But there are times that we ask (from the flesh) outside of God's Will (see James 4:3) & our prayers go no further than our ceiling.

So when the Spirit returns to God at the appointed time, we can't conclude that the Spirit will not again be sent out to fulfil another purpose of God. Where we fail in our understanding is that, since as humans we can't do what God does, so we conclude, that God can't do it either. Just as our spirits return to God Who gave it ( Ecclesiastes 12:7), so will His Holy Spirit return to the Godhead.

To clarify, are you suggesting that there is no God in Heaven except Jesus, Who is God? Or, maybe that Jesus is Our God, so the God in Heaven is no longer our God? It would be difficult to prove that only Jesus (as God) is presently in Heaven.

To do so, then a lot of other Scriptures would have to be negated, when Jesus says: John 16:16.17 "I go to the Father"; John 20:17 "I ascend to my Father...and to My God"; Hebrews 8:1, 10:12, Mark 16:19, Romans 8:34, 1 Peter 3:22 "at the right Hand of God" & many more.

I earnestly hope that I have misunderstood your comments as the abundance of Scripture is given for us to know that there is still a God in Heaven & His Word made flesh has now ascended victorious & glorious, seated at His Father's right Hand, receiving the worship as One inclusive in the eternal Godhead.

You said: "The mystery of the Trinity, then, is not in God dividing himself into 2 or 3 separate parts. The mystery is in the way Jesus speaks to us." With the Scriptures before us, and they don't lie, the "mystery of the Trinity" in part, is that the Eternal God has in His Love, chosen to give of Himself as the only Sacrifice that would satisfy His demands of justice & redemption. An unblemished animal was a temporal covering for sin which could never remove the guilt & consequences of sin. God had to provide His Own Lamb, which He did ( Isaiah 53:7, John 1:29), which no animal or man could fulfil. God the Father did not leave Heaven to accomplish this task but He sent forth His Word clothed in flesh to do so ( John 1:1-14) & called this Word, His beloved Son. God also sent forth His Spirit to empower His Son for service & power to all who repent & call upon Him that they too may be one as They are One ( John 17:21-26).

God cannot be divided into three parts, else we might conclude, three gods. He has revealed Himself in His Fullness, in tri-unity, without which He could not be the God He reveals to us & what He accomplishes for us. Blessings.

The sin of the Christian Church is it's refusal to say Jesus is it's God, the very one who made us and keeps us alive. Jesus said it like this in John 8:24: "You are from below; I am not. That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins."

John says it like this in John in John 1:1, "... and he was God." And Thomas said to Jesus in John 20:28: "My Lord and my God."

Then Jesus said to Thomas, "You are blessed because you have seen me, but more blessed are those who haven't seen me but believe anyway."

As you can see then, Jesus is our God, the one who came and died for the sins of the world, even if the Christian Church wont say so. And this is a sad commentary on the human race. This means that, even today, we we are ignoring the clear warning David gives us in Psalm 14: "Only the fool says in his heard that (Jesus) is not God." And David is a man after Jesus' own heart."

See, David is preaching the Gospel ahead of time, long before it took place, that the Lord he knew as YHWH God in the Old Testament is the New Testament Jesus. This is why David says in verse 7: "Oh that salvation would come from Mount Zion and rescue Israel. For when the Lord rescues his people they will shout for joy." And salvation did come from Mount Zion, for this is the place where Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins.

So this is my proclamation: Jesus is the One True God, all others are false.

See, God is a single being/a single person like us. He has to be if we are made in his image. The mystery of the Trinity, then, is not in God dividing himself into 2 or 3 separate parts. The mystery is in the way Jesus speaks to us.

In other words he speaks to us like this: "I am Jesus," "The Father sent me," "Receive ye the Holy Spirit."

Stay Safe,

Rev. Autrey

Christian love to you brother Chris

Thanks you once more for you reply. Let us leave it there for now as I digest what has been offered to me.

Peace and love in Christ to you and the children of God where you are.

Jesus Christ is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

1 John 5:7 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1:1-18

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 John 5:6-8

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

John 14:9-12

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

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The Holy Spirit resides in all who have come to faith in Jesus Christ ( John 14:17) & also convicts men of sin, of righteousness & (coming) judgement. ( John 16:7-11). So the Spirit is still working in the World until the appointed time when He is taken away (some argue as to when that time will be). The Son has now returned to the Father (back into the God folder), but He is distinct in that He is now God in the flesh, not as only the Word, but as the Son who has performed all that was required of Him on Earth & now at the Father's right Hand in Heaven ( Hebrews 7:25). In the human mind this is a difficult concept to grasp & that is why you are having difficulties. If you want to understand God in a human perspective, it won't work because we don't have anything on this Earth that can adequately compare to Him & our minds don't work in any other way. But do we say then that because we don't believe that such a Trinity can exist, therefore it's impossible for God to be such? I think then, that it's us who have the problem in understanding the Character of God & not the Doctrine.

Yes, illustrating the Trinity to man's trinitarian composition, is 'problematic': no illustration can adequately do the job, but I felt compelled to use it to try & help you understand, but that didn't work. And lastly, God is Spirit ( John 4:24), the Word was part of that Spirit, & the Holy Spirit was sent out into the World. So we only knew & heard God as Spirit in the OT. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, we see the (visible) God in Jesus, but we also know that God is still there ( Revelation 8:2 & about 3,000 other verses to prove it). God hasn't disappeared & Jesus has not taken His place. So please look into this & see where your theology has become skewed or maybe you are under some false teaching. May the Lord give you light on this very important matter.

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That's an interesting depiction of the Trinity you gave, Hugo. One problem though: you have shown to the non-Christian person three separate pictures which of course represent three different gods. That's not what it should be. If I had to use a similar illustration, I would say, show a folder (as one used for documents) & say that this represents God. Then take another folder & place it in the 'God folder' & call it "Jesus". Finally, take a third folder & place it in the 'God folder' & call it "Holy Spirit". So what do we have now? We still have three folders, but two of them are within God. But your non-Christian says, "I only see the God folder, where is Jesus & the Holy Spirit?" You can tell him where they are: they are within God or a part of God.

If he objects to this & says that once they are separated, they becomes three gods, then the answer to that is, that they are all in the one Godhead, but when they separate, they, as part of that Godhead, go out to perform what God intends. So we have the God folder, the Word folder & the Holy Spirit folder all in one God. God sends out His Word (as I wrote earlier), but instead of just words for a prophet to proclaim, e.g. like John the Baptist did, God made His Word a Man to not only be The Prophet, but also to be the sacrificial Lamb & Saviour, the eternal Priest & coming King. And because of this human birth made from Divine Seed (the Word), it is said that "He shall be called the Son of God" ( Luke 1:35).

Grace & Peace in Christ dear brother Chris

I feel this topic is now leaving the realm of the Bible, and entering into unusual uses of words.

Just go to a person who knows nothing about Christianity and show him 3 pictures - one, a painting of Jesus; two, a blank picture which represents the Father; three, a picture of a dove which is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. Tell the man that you believe each picture shows God. Ask the man how many gods there then are. He will say three. Tell the man that although it looks like three, you belief that it is actually just one. The man will say you belief a strange thing. Then tell the man that this one God in three pieces can have conversations between these pieces and get new views and ideas from each piece, while still remaining just one God. - The poor man will probably think this is the weirdest thing he has ever heard in his life.

Look three divine worshipped persons make three gods, or language has lost its meaning entirely.

With all due respect, your example of comparing the Godhead to man's body, mind and soul is also problematic. There are enormous differences between the parts, and they do not sit around a table to have a chat.

What you wrote about God's plan of salvation, I agree with completely, but to then draw a conclusion of: so now the Three are all there like ducks in a row; this is wrong. The only Person (visible) is Jesus Christ. There is never in the Bible any other visible human form of God than Him. The Spirit coming upon a person is symbolized as a tongue of flame or a dove...

Dear brother. Consider if we may not perhaps be doing as the Samaritan woman was doing when Jesus Christ told her "You worship you know not what... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Peace & love in Jesus Christ

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This same Jesus, fully man & fully Divine, was crucified, buried, resurrected & ascended to the Father's right Hand. Where once, the Word proceeded out from God, the Word now in flesh, raised in a heavenly Body, sits as the Divine Man at God's right Hand. So Jesus, as we too will be in Heaven, can communicate with each other - I see no problem with this ( Hebrews 7:25).

And in regards to polytheism, by definition, is the multiplicity of gods. The Triune God is definitely not a polytheistic god - that would be sacrilege indeed. We don't have three gods in Heaven - there is only One God expressed in three Persons; I think you are understanding the Trinity teaching from a polytheistic perspective - God cannot be understood like that. If you see Jesus or the Holy Spirit as a lesser Entity, then you have not understood the Doctrine of God - all three in the Godhead are equally God & are the One God: co-equal & co-eternal.

I gave you the example of your personal trinitarian existence, Hugo: you're composed of spirit, soul & body. Do you accept that? Without even one of those 'parts' you wouldn't be Hugo - maybe you could be some type of sub-human or just floating about in spirit form. Or with the Sun in the Universe: a body of hot gases, giving heat & giving light (3 parts of the one). It wouldn't be a sun as we know, if any entity of it was absent. These are of course poor examples to try & explain the Triune God, but I'm trying to show you that a Trinity does not necessarily mean three that are separate from each other, but can also mean three in one, as with God. But in Heaven now, Jesus is seen as separate because of his taking on of flesh & rising in a heavenly Body. We will be like him in Heaven ( 1 John 3:2). So please rid your mind that Christians entertain a polytheistic belief of God - that is a wicked belief, as you clearly wrote. Blessings.

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Thank you once again Hugo for your comments & observations. I'm sad that my comment on Jesus talking with the Father & the Trinitarian aspects troubled you, but I shall explain. Before Jesus' incarnation (when He was sent to Earth as a Man), Jesus is seen as God's Word ( John 1:1-14): only One God with His Word & His Spirit, as shown to us. That Word out of God accomplished many tasks, including in creation, the words given to the prophets, etc. Remember, at this point in time, there is only One God seen in His Fullness: His Word & Spirit.

At the time appointed, God sent forth His Word to His people, Israel ( Hebrews 1:1,2) & He was called the Son of God. But Jesus came not only to bring God's Message (as a Prophet of God would), but this Man Jesus came out of God to become like us in the flesh for the purposes of being the Perfect Sacrifice for mankind's redemption. What was limiting & failing before by using animal sacrifices was now acceptable to God in providing us His Lamb. As you know, Jesus in His humanity, suffered hunger, loneliness, pain, etc. as we do & even "tempted on all points as we are", but without sin, He became the Sacrifice that worked for us. He also prayed (talked) to the Father & did so very often, as you know.

Once more blessing in Christ on you dear brother Chris

I feel I have to alter the topic of the discussion for this reply as something came out in your post which startled me greatly.

I hope I misunderstood you, because I had the impression you wrote that Jesus Christ talks to God the Father like one person speaks to another person!!!

Do you really believe that? Do all Trinitarians believe it? I have never been long at a Trinitarian church so I honestly did not know this is believed. God have mercy on us. This is absolute polytheism! I thought you simply believed that God had three heads or three independant forms, but to say that one part of God talks to another part of God, and has a chat, this is unimaginable. This is 100% equal to Hinduism where (with all due respect to the Word stating we are not to even to say the names of idols) Shiva goes to visit Vishnu and they spend an hour having a debate about who is greater, or Buddhism where the Buddha may say a certain human needs to go to hell, but then Amitabha comes along and says that because the human visited his temple once he can be born on earth as a bird instead of going to hell, or Greek religion where Hera became jealous of Heracles because Zeus loved him more, etc.

My dear brother in Christ. Please consider what you are really believing. The very thing that caused God to make Abraham be taken out of his land to go to Canaan was that Abraham rejected the polytheism of his country. Out of a whole country he alone knew the oneness of God, and that God is not a man or men but a Spirit. My ernest desire for you is to be the one person in your community who can leave the traditions of organized religion, and know the oneness of God, and that God is not a man or men but a Spirit.

Peace and love in our one and only Lord, with none other equal who He can chat with as one among equals, Jesus Christ

That's an interesting explanation you've given: "No matter what other scriptures you may read you can not change this truth or alter it. It's unchangeable just like God is unchangeable. So you use the light of this truth to understand more truth. If you add to the truth it becomes a lie."

So we have Mt 14:33, "Of a truth thou art the Son of God." And Luke 1:32, "be called the Son of the Highest."

According to your understanding, using these verses to the exclusion of any other verse that could add to the understanding that Jesus is the Christ, the One born of God & called the Son of God, we would have to overlook portions such as John 1:1-14 as 'secondary' & unworthy for inclusion into the primary meaning & understanding of Jesus Christ. So if you consider the John 1 portion as changing or altering the Truth about the Son of God, then how do you arrive at that conclusion? And if it indeed does so, & we thereby do disservice to the Word by including it with God's Son, then I ask, what do we actually do with such Scriptures? Could this Word of God, both very God & with God & then becoming flesh to dwell on the Earth, not actually pertain to Jesus? Then to whom & how are we to read this & understand this? I've tried looking at with all the possibilities I can, but still it hits me as I read it. Even if I don't understand how this can happen, do I have to conclude that this portion has some other meaning?

Using your Romans 6:23 example: "For the wages of sin is death" as all we need to know about this Truth. So if I then read Isaiah 59:2, telling me that my iniquities have separated me from God only, but not consigned me to death, I would be perplexed.

Or Mark 9:43-47: for me to escape hell fire for my sins, all I have to do is to remove my hand or eye or foot that consigns me to hell. Rather, to help me understand further that my sins result in death (both physically & spiritually), it helps to know that I'm separated & also to deal with the trigger for my sin.

There's not really a doctrine about pets in heaven. However, if you ponder long on Noah's Ark; we know God cared about humans having animals. They loaded up the Ark with animals and when the Ark landed everyone left the Ark and went forth and multiplied.

So the animals were preserved.

This day, Jesus is the new Ark of God. We must be born again to be taken up in the clouds to meet Jesus. We have to be in Jesus.

Maybe I'm an old fool, but I think there will be critters in heaven. I kinda asked The Lord why he made cats and dogs, once? I said they have not much use except to serve and be held for hours. Lol.

Some people worship animals so that's not a good thing. The Bible does say the Lion will lay down with the lamb?

I think we're going to have to wait and see what heaven is like. I'm excited about a transformed body that doesn't hurt or get tired.

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Revelation 4:2: yes, that does show John viewing One sitting on the Throne, but when you read further in Revelation 5:6-9, we also see Jesus (God's Word sent to be made human, but now ascended to sit at God's right Hand). And we know that Jesus & God are there in Heaven by this verse & also Romans 8:34. So God's Word was made flesh & called "Jesus" but raised as 'God Who is also Man' in that Body fitted for Heaven, even as we shall be in that day ( 1 John 3:2). And yes, it was God's Plan from the beginning to have His children enjoy intimate fellowship with Him. And God is His Fullness (i.e. the Father, His Son & His Spirit Who are God in Unity) do enjoy such fellowship with His children. Each cannot feel differently about us (i.e. God cannot have fellowship with us, but the Son says "But I don't like that person, let's have a chat about this Father"). God is One & that Oneness is seen in His expressions of His Son & His Spirit & in their Unity & complete agreement.

Jesus as a 'created Being': Jesus' Sacrifice as a Man does indeed have spiritual consequences but cannot be seen as a spiritual Sacrifice. He was fully human & fully God, yet laying aside some of those Divine qualities for the purposes of the Incarnation & Sacrifice ( Philippians 2:5-11). To enable us to be convicted, to draw us to repentance, to give light & understanding, to renew us & fill us, to sanctify us & to raise us up to the heavenlies, is the work of God's Spirit. And Who is this Spirit? The self same Spirit that is part of the Father & the Son.

1 John 3:9: that's a separate subject that can be discussed if you desire, as its meaning needs analysis. Though the concept of sinless perfection is concerning. Blessings.

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Hi Hugo, I understand the Ecclesiastes reference when I looked at the Hebrew word for "things", as applying to words, speech. The KJV doesn't write it that way. Yet, unlike you, I find it the opposite: when someone writes in more detail, I find that I can better understand the point he is making & so be able to discuss it. With too few words, often the understanding is incomplete.

It is true that God can be understood & experienced in many ways, such as a Father, a Friend, a Creator, a Comforter, etc., just as your example of a human family. But to do that, only gives us an experiential meaning (i.e. of one's experience of God). But to know the God of Heaven, then requires us to know Who He is in His Being. If God chose not to do so, then all we would have is a God that is known according to our experience of Him. But He has chosen to show us what makes up His Essence. And that Essence of God is seen also in His Word & His Spirit (Scriptures given previously). In other words, if His Word and/or His Spirit are absent, He wouldn't be God - His 'composition' is a God of Three Entities, as revealed to us.

For example, your friend would see you as Hugo, a man & his friend, but God sees the real you as a body, soul & spirit; if any of these 'parts' of you are absent, you wouldn't be Hugo that we know. The only reason we have a physical body, is to house the spirit & soul & that we can enjoy the life on Earth that God has blessed us with. That's why when Jesus dealt with people around Him, He cared not how they dressed or their appearance, but looked deep into them, into their spirit to know of what sort they were & what drove them. Likewise, God judges us not by our appearance, but the condition of our heart (i.e. if we have been changed by His Spirit or still subject to the sinful spirit of man).