Then Peter says that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. Remember that the Jews of the first century understood that Son of God is a divine title, as I explained earlier. So for Peter to say that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, He is saying that Jesus is God.
In Matthew 16:16-17 Jesus again asked a very profound question. "Who do you say that I am." Again, Peter the same statement. "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus receives this statement as true and declared that Peter didn't come up with this idea on his own but that the Father had revealed this truth to Peter (because God can only tell the truth).
In john 20:28, Thomas, upon seeing and touching the risen Jesus exclaims, "My Lord and my God." Jesus does not rebuke Thomas for saying He is God, nor does He say Thomas is mistaken and then correct Thomas. No, Jesus accepts Thomas' statement of worship.
In Is. 43;15, YHWH says, "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, you King." In Jn. 1:49, after Jesus calls Natanael, Nathanael says, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel." Jesus does not negate what Natanael states because this disciples is equating Jesus with YHWH of Is. 43:15.
Also, even demons knew that Jesus was God, calling Him the "Holy One of God" in Mk. 1:24; Lk. 4:34.
Next, I want to go to Hebrew1:6 where the inspiration of God had the author say that the angels worship Jesus, In Rev. there is worship of Jesus, the Lamb, along with the Father, who sits on the throne. How could this worship be allowed in heaven if Jesus was not God?
For now I will stop. There are many, many more verses that speak to Jesus; divinity. One can look on this site under the question "Is Jesus God?"
For me, I am convinced that Jesus is God and worthy of worship as God. And it is not idolatry to worship the Father and Jesus, the Son, for there are not two Gods (or three), but one God who exists as several divine persons who are one in nature.
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." ( Revelation 5:13)
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." ( John 20:29).
Starting with the middle verse; I thought it interesting to consider that IF this is to be taken chronologically; IMMEDIATELY after the Rapture and before the onset of the first seal being opened; everyone will praise God and Christ. I had originally noted that this occurs at the sixth seal; when mankind runs away from God and realizes His judgments have begun. This brings to mind what was said in the passage from John; we don't want to wake up in the Tribulation and have to face the horrors of that time and martyrdom to boot which will be the basic change once everything is revealed; the church age is over and the saints are to be overcome ( Daniel 7:25).
The Spirit reflects Christ in its operation. When Jesus spoke it was often in regard to bringing out the full meaning of the law (lust and anger) as general teaching to the crowd; or specific allegations to a group of Pharisees in particular as well as lawyers.
The Spirit causes individuals to have a general conviction of sin because we have a sense of God's holiness against our own condition. The end result of sin is death ( Romans 6:23) and hell. Godly sorrow brings repentance (and life) worldly sorrow death.
Having set forth a few warnings on how NOT to read scripture I will continue with some further analysis but thought I would begin discussion on how we should read it.
1. First and foremost; we need to be DEAD serious as to the eternal ramifications of our spiritual condition which is a result of our sinful inheritance through Adam as well as the acting out of our sins through commission of acts or omission of things the Lord has made clear result in judgment. One can quibble as to details of the description of hell; but it's reality and eternal finality are not options to disregard. To put it in simple terms those that believe in the Biblical heaven never seem to debate as to whether it lasts forever; and rarely that it is a literal place. Given the same descriptions of the finality of hell we have no reason from the text alone to debate the fact that there is a place of eternal torment for the wicked. The only caveat is that the current "holding cell" status of hell ends at the Great White Throne judgment; where all wicked are cast into their eternal existance in the lake of fire to continue their suffering in an eternal physical body that cannot be extinguished. There is hardly anything we can read or ponder on that has anything remotely resembling the urgency of the Bible. Our temporal earthly existence and our faith or lack thereof determines our eternal destiny; as well as degrees of reward or punishment based on actions on earth. Our life therefore is either in ourselves on the throne or God. Either Satan or God is our master and as the usurper of all earthly riches it is no wonder that the Babylon the Great economic system makes the love of money the root of all evil. ( 1 Tim. 6:10). What we see with human eyes at best is a dim reflection in Creation of God's glory. What is unseen is what we must believe; as every knee shall bow before Him someday ( John 20:29; Phillipians 2:10-11; Isaiah 45:23).
Mt. 1:23 quotes Is 7:14 as being fulfilled in Jesus. He is "Emmanuel, God with us"
John 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus, "My Lord and my God" and Jesus did not tell Thomas that that was NOT true.
1Peter 1:1 says our righteousness comes from God, and it comes to us in Jesus our Savior. The righteousness
of Jesus is the righteousness of God because He is God.
Is. 9:6 says that Jesus is the "Mighty God"
Rev.1: Jesus says that He is the "Almighty"
Col. 2:9-10 says that in Jesus the fulness of the Godhead dwelled bodily. He is Emmanuel, God with us. God revealed bodily.
Jesus is worshipped by believers (only God is to be worshipped) and Jesus accepted this worship.
Mt. 2:1-2 (by the magi)
Mt. 28:8-9, 17 (by the apostles)
In Rev.5:13 we read of the worship of God in heaven. Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) are given worship and it is said that this worship is to be given to both forever.
it is important for us to realize that only God is righteous enough to be our Redeemer, and that He became man in order that his holy blood could be shed for us as a sacrifice. No other blood would cleanse but the blood of God the Son. In His divinity, God has no blood because the divine nature is Spirit, but in His humanity as God in the flesh, He had divine blood to shed.
Jesus is the most unique person in all of creation and in God's transcendent realm, being both God and man in one person.
I have heard this quote often, don't know the author, but it is worth pondering (this is not a direct quote)
If Jesus is not God, then there is no Christianity and those who worship Jesus are nothing but idolaters. But if He is God, then those who deny He is God are blasphemers in the worst sense of the word, because they believe in another Jesus than what Scripture presents to us.
God's Word is truth. He revealed Himself to mankind in Scriptures so that we can know the truth about Him: what He is in His divine nature and who He is in His Persons.
Well Oseas, from reading of your beliefs, I'm unable to place where you exactly are with this. You were first dealing with the Name of God in Isaiah. You've now quoted Acts 7:53-58, particularly verse 55, "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God". In the NT, Koine Greek is the language used. If you believe that the Hebrew 'Yahweh' written of God in the OT is a devilish name, does this also apply to the Greek word for God: 'Theos'?
You asked, "what GOD's NAME was manifested by my Lord JESUS?" Yet, reading the rest of your comments, it appears to me that you hold to an "only Jesus is in Heaven" position, that when Jesus was made flesh, "GOD called Himself Jesus.." Really!!! So, as not to be mistaken, are you in that camp, that says 'that since God is in Christ that only Jesus is now in Heaven'? I'm hoping that I've misunderstood you, as we know most assuredly that when Jesus ascended into Heaven, He went back to the Father & is seated at His right Hand ( John 20:17, Acts 2:32,33, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 1:3, 1 Peter 3:22, etc.). So, NOT two Gods, but the One God, with Jesus His Son Who came forth out of God now distinct from Him through the incarnation. Thus He rightly fully claims the eternity of the Godhead (the Alpha & Omega), & also receives the worship of all. So your comments are troubling, if that is your position.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3Ephesians 6:231 Thessalonians 1:12 Timothy 1:2Titus 1:42 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
I have been wiped out on my computer TWICE trying to get this posting out. Seems the enemy doesn't want me to do this.
Or I had too many windows up at the same time. UGH.
Whenever I go to get scripture references I take a chance on wiping out the page; although my computer for some reason stalled out last run..
I will post this as an argument and rebuttal format just to do something different....
First assumption (as best I understand it). Christ didn't appear any other time in a bodily form except while here on earth.
It should be clear that Christ rose with scars remaining from His body which He had on earth that was resurrected. This is clear from "doubting Thomas" in John 20:28. There are numerous instances when Christ was indeed in a preincarnate form; such as with the incident with Abraham in Genesis 18:18 (where it also appears the discussion in the previous verses is between the Godhead as to whether these things should remain hidden). There is also the incident with the angel of the Lord in Hosea 11:4 cross referencing Jacob wrestling with God in the account of Genesis 32:22-32. For worship to occur these saints of God were indeed only to worship God. Since 1 John states that no one can see God and live; and Genesis 32:30 says that no one has seen God at any time; it seems clear that Christ was appearing in these cases. Numerous other verses could be cited.
The "us" verses.
We see in the original creation story in Genesis 1; as well as the narrative of the Tower of Babel ( Genesis 11:7) where "our image" and "us" is referred to in the creation of man; and the determination to confuse the language of men.
Argument Two: Main premise that God is one appearing in different "modes" or forms. To ignore that God is in distinct persons seems absurd in light of verses such as Luke 23:46 (where Jesus commended His spirit to God at death); and all other verses which showed Christ praying to the Father.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
Hi Jema: I know I'm a bit late replying to this but I just now read the whole thread of what happened and I am so glad you and GiGi and Giannis are good to go with each other and I'm sorry my reaction was so strong and I caused trouble. I'm trying not to do that again. I am back to discussing the Sabbath with Giannis again, unless he doesn't want to then I won't. The only reason I continue to discuss the Sabbath is because (I'm not insulting Giannis, only stating my perception of these discussions and why I'm hanging on like a Pitbull LOL.) I don't feel like he has responded to my questions about why he believes that the breaking of bread can only mean the weekly service of the Early Church - that there can be no other possible interpretation. All his beliefs in the Early Church abandoning the Sabbath for Sunday worship are based on the breaking of bread premise that it had to only mean that it refers to the weekly meeting of the Early Church. Some scriptures do state that the Church met on the first day of the week, Sunday but that could just simply mean the church met on Sunday at different times other then on the Sabbath just as churches meet on different days today. For example, John 20:19 (the Church gathered together on the first day of the week because they were afraid of the Jews, not because it was time for church.) Giannis also used historical writings to back up his belief that the Early Church stopped worshipping on the Sabbath and I couldn't agree to that. (Giannis if you read this post, please don't think I am talking behind your back. I would never do that I am just trying to explain why I haven't given up on the Sabbath.) He asked me to provide scripture that validated they didn't give up on the Sabbath and I gave him a lot but he just wouldn't accept them with no real response why. All you have to do read these few and you can see that the Early church was keeping the Sabbath holy.. Acts 17:2, Acts 13:14, Acts 15:21, Acts 18:4. God Bless :)
St Paul says,"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God./ But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Ro.10:17-18).We have the only guide which is His Word. Truth written in our inwards, which is our heart ,-not an anatomical part but a spiritual space. Writers use words to create a literary space. So when we read Gulliver's travel we are right there seeing as the author narrates it. It is an imaginary world. Not so withh the Bible. God framed the worlds by his word he made the quality of his Holiness.(He.11:3). So the unseen Will of the Father and the visible earth God the Son are mirror image created by faith. So. St Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as the visible image of God. (Col.1:15) For the same reason the Preacher says,'the Earth abides forever.'(Ec.1:4) Faith is one even as the Gospel is one. It is to which Paul refers in v.18.
God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. So he has truth in his heart which makes his spiritual space meaningful. It is a world where man may know whatever he needs know of God, a Spirit. This is where Jesus Christ shall abide in a believer. So his eye of faith is active when he follows Jesus who set an example. Now that he has gone and is seated on the right hand of the most High, we may believe there is a royal highway connecting. So youand I are under the mighty shadow of His wings.(Ps.91:1). When we read from the Scripture our ear of faith catches the drift and it is how faith operates. You do not need any other guide than faith and the Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead. As many as are led by the Spirit are the children of God.(Ro.8:14)
Before his Ascension Jesus breathed on his disciples ( John 20:22). Receive ye the Holy Ghost" God the Father and the Son work as one. So he as the visible God in his humanity proved faith, DNA of his Father. He is also called the last Adam.
John 10:34- seems to be a popular verse here. People want to believe they are a god, is that what's happening here? That would be a gross misinterpretation. You know this is a quote with a question mark at the end, right? Let's be honest about it. Here's the commentary for that:
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
1 Corinthians 13:12 states: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This relates to our perception of Christ; but also of course in glory we will see other saints in their eternal bodies as well for the first time. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
For now we do get glimpses; should we take the time to discern them of the Holy Spirit uniquely working in each true saint of God.
In physical appearance we still may look the same at least to the world to our early life when we were still in the world. Our identity is in Christ if indeed we are saved; and we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds ( Romans 12:2). Glorification will give us bodies it would seem like Christ when He could go through walls or doors ( John 20:19); we will be able to eat and drink ( Rev. 19:9; compare with Luke 24:42-43; and Mark 14:25). We will also rule and reign with Christ after returning with Him at Armageddon ( Rev. 19:14; Rev. 2:26-27).
Having no more suffering as promised in Revelation 21:4 and no more death certainly is an encouraging throught. I would submit that understanding the reasons for all of our earthly struggles may be even more poignant than understanding the suffering itself. We can take heart that Christ has His church as a reward; and we also can rejoice (or should) in one another and the time on earth invested in the Body of Christ as well as helping to fulfill the Great Commission. Again; it is rewards that are the variable that we are to strive for as seen in 1 Cor. 9:24-27. I am convinved many who receieve great rewards are relatively unknown at present praying in their closet; giving secretly to missions and serving under the radar. God sees the heart (see Heb. 4:12).
This is a difficult subject to discuss openly. Being one is to be united in the holy love of God. The way we can do this is to become one with His Son, Jesus Christ the only way to the Father, John 14:6. When a man and woman are married, they become one as we through faith become one in Jesus. When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist Jesus was filled without measure with the Holy Ghost/Spirit, God's Spirit, John 3:34.
God was manifested in Jesus, John 14:101 Tim. 3:10. Jesus was the Tabernacle of God, John 10:38. Jesus and the Father are one John 10:30 and Jesus told us we can be one as He and the Father are one, John 17:20-23. Jesus did nothing on His own, only the will of the Father, Jesus was obedient to the Father, Rom. 5:19 and as you said, Jesus was sent by the Father, John 5:30. The doctrine Jesus laid out was not His doctrine but His who sent Him, the Father, John 7:16.
All things are delivered unto Jesus of the Father, Matt. 11:27 and all in heaven and earth is under Jesus's feet, 1 Cor. 15:27 and will be until the last enemy is under His feet, that is death, Rev. 20:14. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, John 14:28. Scripture says Jesus has a God, 2 Cor. 11:3 1 Eph. 1:3Eph. 1:17Col 1:3 Jesus said He had a God John 20:17.
In the garden, Jesus prayed to the Father that the cup He was about to partake could pass if there was another way, but said not His will but the Father's will, Matt. 26:39. All the introductions, greetings, and blessings in the Scriptures in the New Testament that are given to the followers of Christ and called to be saints from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, two not three.
Rom. 1:7-81 Cor. 1:3-41 John 1:32 John 1:32 Cor. 1:2-3Gal. 1:3-4Eph. 1:2-3Phil. 1:2Col. 1:2-3 2 Thess.1:2 1 Tim.1:2 2 Tim.1:2 Titus 1:4Philemon 1:32 Pet. 1:2.
You must study the Scriptures letting the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God guide you to your understanding, not from my reply, or man.
Back to the discussion we were having. My thoughts about that and what I have been tought are:
In Matthew 16:19 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gives the apostles the right to forgive sins. So what does that mean? That they can take God's right to forgive or not? Well this doesn't sound right, does it?
I will go to that incident in Corinth whre a brother was having an affair with his father's wife. Paul suggests the members of that church to ( 1 Cor 5:4-5) " 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
A similar case is described in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the case that a brother sins to another brother and dispite the church telling him to repent he wouldn't repent, so Jesus said "17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The above are cases that the church has the right to bind and free, forgive or not. The right of the church to exlude somebody from the congregation and deliver him to satan.
But a question may arise. What if the church is wrong and the specific brother is right. We know from history that many churches took advantage of those verses and exluded believers for all sort of reasons, even political reasons. I firmly believe that in such cases God doesn't pay any attention to such decisions, actualy He is the one who forgives or not.
But I would also like others to comment on those verse and see what they believe.
Here's the scripture we have in question and how it reads.
John 20:21-23.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Here we have another one of those passages that has caused a lot of confusion.
I will share my thoughts on these verses.
Previously I stated we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is ALREADY loosed in Heaven.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
I would like to attempt to give more clarity on this.
One of the few translations that reflect key Greek nuances reads as follows
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" The word forgiven is in the perfect tense. NASB.
In verse 22 Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holyspirit and he sent them out. (After Pentecost)
By this power that they didn't have before, the apostles would be able to make "SPIRIT-LED SENTENCING" AFTER PRESENTING THE GOSPEL.
They would be led or inspired to either pardon or bound according to what has ALREADY been pardoned or bound by God.
I believe we are able to sound the horn of salvation we are not able to make the decision for salvation.
Before I turn in, here's one I meant to ask you about.
You gave your interpretation on John 20:21-23. and paralleled it with Matthew 16:19.
Here's how it went.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.,
You interpreted this passage of scripture as the following;
( We, the church, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.)
Giannis we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is already loosed in Heaven.
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I (Paul) forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Doesn't the above remind us of the discussion Peter had with Jesus:
Matthew 16:19,
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Also when Jesus appeared to his disciples after His resurrection?
John 20:21-23,
"21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
We, the chuech, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.
"She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
Contextual truth is from Satan since it does not give truth its total sovereignty to the word as He intended. When He sent his Son he defined what he was. "I am the Way, the truth and the life" Instead believing it it opens way for extraneous matters judge truth. We have a couple of examples: Eve saw the fruit of the tree from the POV of Satan and let her senses settle the matter. Compare with Thomas who would not believe unless he saw the nail marks by his own eyes. What did Jesus Christ say," blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."( John 20:29). Adam in his turn let his love for Eve forget himself. He should have asked himself, "What has God said about eating of the fruit?" He simply ate what she gave to him.
Man thus became a servant to sin. Instead of the Law of Spirit he would be judged under the law of sin.
God had made his Will clear to Adam. What the serpent made of 'In the day' and saying thou shalt not die was at odds with the soul and it made the man accountable to God. God allowed to eat of all other fruits freely including from the tree of life. God's commandment, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," would have grave consequences upon the soul of man.
In the same vein the nascent church was given an underhand swipe when Constantine I adopted Christianity as the state religion. It eased the state policy of persecution. Outwardly it spared the body of the Church. Since then are we not assailed by heresies without let?
I also believe the nails were through His hands. John 20:27 seems to indicate hands.
I have also heard some say the nails were through His wrists. The reason they say this is because of the bone structure. They say that the way the wrist bones form right below the hand, that is the only way a nail would support the weight of the body.
My thoughts are that they probably tied Him down first before they drove the nails in, but that is just speculation on my part.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
About difference between soul and spirit, I also would like to highlight or point out the difference between HUMAN creation and other kind of animals. Genesis 1:24&26:
24 GOD said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind(may the Earth produce, or produce the Earth), cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. But about man,(v.26) GOD said, Let us MAKE MAN in our image, after our likeness: ...
If GOD had not breathed on man, this would be an animal like other animals in which GOD did not breathe the breath of life, in fact, that is why they do not speak a single word, even a letter, by nature.
I am a fruit of the multiplication that GOD ordered around 6000 years ago. I was born in the last century, but the order of my birth was given by my GOD millennia ago. I was born under His everlating Word of course. Job 33:4 -The Spirit of GOD hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Having said that, I would like to highlight and emphasize that when GOD breathed the breath of life into man, He actually gave man the ability to speak with his mouth, and thus dominate the earthly environment. John 3:31-He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth. So, he that is of above is above all.
John 20:22 - when JESUS had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
Isaiah 2:22 - Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?
Psalm 19:14 - Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.
Power principle of God is complemented by Wisdom principle, which can be explained in the Father Son relationship in many ways. In terms of the Word and expression, its glory in expression gives a sign language, which is expressed by the Spirit as a narrative mode. For example God gives charge to young Jeremiah which is a token, "Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, 'I have put my words in your mouth' "(Je.1:9). Similarly He gives Ezekiel a roll that empowers him for the purpose. "And he said to me, "Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel.(Ez.3:1)" Jeremiah was young but it was His Power and His wisdom doing the tasks, "Thou therefore gird up thy loins, and arise, and speak unto them all that I command thee: be not dismayed at their faces, lest I confound thee before them".(Je.1:17)
When Jesus would cure the deaf and mute he looks up thereby fixing his faith which came from his Father, "And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened..(Mark.7:34)
Gestures like looking up or breathing on the disciples present ( John 20:22) for the above reason are not mere gestures but the Son expressing appropriate emotional significance as True and Faithful witness. He witnessed Truth before men and angels.
Spirit of humility marked his gestures. Apart from heaven being above he lifted his eyes up acknowledging by such a single gesture his lowliness. Blessings come from the greater on the lesser applied equally to him. When people would want to make him their king he slipped away from their hold.
He conducted himself as a witness before the Word though was the Word become flesh. In all these neither his gesture nor conduct would lift him in a spirit of pride. He could boldly say, the prince of this world comes and he has no hold over me. ( John 14:30)
In John 20:17, the word translated "touch" is a Greek word which means "to cling to, to lay hold of.
She wanted to worship him and never loose him again.
But there was still work to be done in cleansing our temple by presenting himself in our behalf.
Then in the same verse Jesus says why he told Mary not to touch him.
"FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.
I believe Jesus was in his role as the High priest as this point.
He was to present himself as the sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:25-26. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:12-22. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Just something to consider or as you say so well meditate, thank you, brother.
John 20:17, just think sunrise on the morning of the Feast of First Fruits, Leviticus 23:9-14, a shadow of what was being fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead. The priests were waving the sheaf of grain left and right before the altar, and the women were arriving at the Lord's tomb around the same time. They could not eat or partake of the first harvest until it was waved and accepted by God, Jesus had to present Himself to God, He is the First Fruits of those of the dead, the first harvest.
Is this why Mary could not touch Him? We see later after He presented Himself and was accepted by God, after He returned then they could touch Him, Matthew 28:9. He was raised in His glorified body the same as we will be raised in our glorified body, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. Eternal life is the gift and hope we have through Jesus Christ our Lord in Jesus.
Good afternoon all! I began thinking of this verse in my commute back to home today:
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV
Jesus resurrected from the tomb in the same body he completed the finished work in. Mary was not to touch and His message was that he would ascend to the Father his God and the brethren's God.
A born again Christian also resurrects from the grave in the body they died in. Until, we like Jesus ascend to the Father we must remain separate from sin. Jesus did exactly this as an example for us.
I'm with you, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God given to us. A reason we differ, preconceived ideas are obstacles to the truth. We all grow up in cultures where we inherit certain biased beliefs, values, and attitudes from our parents, teachers, religious affiliation, peer groups, and friends. When we study the Bible unless we can clear these obstacles, and beliefs when we read our sub-conscience mind will block the true meaning with the ones we have stored in our mind.
We must empty our minds as we know nothing, take out the garbage, pray, and let the Spirit of Truth show us the true meaning of what we are studying. We must keep in mind we get milk first and then meat and it can be years between.
I also believe in one God and Father of all, who is the God and Father of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ.
John 20:17Romans 15:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 5:20Colossians 1:31 Peter 1:31 Corinthians 8:6.
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21Matt. 12:50John 20:172 Cor. 11:31Ephesians 1:31 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:161 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
First, I ask your forgiveness, and say the KJV is one of the most trustworthy English translations, but they are not perfect. When we study pray, and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding, we can trust the Holy Spirit will lead and teach us because the Spirit is truth, 1 John 5:6 do not doubt that. Believe the Scripture by being led by the Holy Spirit, not the traditions of man.
(Milk, then meat) it is a lifelong walk, and some answers will not be known but the one answer that matters is Jesus is the way.
John's gospel, his letters, and Revelation have one thing in common, to show and give evidence that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah, the only begotten Son of God who the Father sent, and in Him is life, our salvation, eternal life. Acts 4:11-12 The Father sent the Son John 4:34John 5:30John 6:29 Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the Father John 6:38.
Jesus came out from God John 16:27 Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 Before Mary could touch Him, He said I ascend unto my Father, and to my God John 20:17 John's writings are full of who Jesus was, is, and will be.
What I posted was not a lie, it is a fact, maybe I should not have posted it on an open forum like this. I wanted to inspire the study, searching for the truth, and not causing doubt. It touches on a subject that many consider non-discussable, the Trinity doctrine.
This is from my heart; this doctrine has been placed equal to the gospel of Jesus. In many Churches, you are not saved and are not a Christian if you do not believe and confess this doctrine. Does the Church have the authority to say this?
Is there any Scripture that says our salvation is dependent on this doctrine that was 400 years after the Scriptures we have? Was it even discussed by Peter, John, Paul, or in any of the letters we have? I'll leave it there.
It is to the church, the body of Christ. And John wrote based on the encouragement of the elders of Ephesus.
III. ABOUT THE GOSPEL OF JOHN:
About 95% of the information in the Gospel of John is not found in the other Gospels. So, it is new material.
What is interesting about the Gospel of John is that the entire Gospel covers 21 days of the Lord's three-year ministry. Just 21 days! 10 out of 21 chapters cover one week. 237 out of 879 verses cover one 24-hour period. So, these are very selective accounts for us about the things of Christ.
IV. ABOUT THE PURPOSE FOR JOHN WRITING THE GOSPEL OF JOHN:
He wrote in John 20:31, "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
He wrote so the people would believe. Now I think it is interesting that even though he wrote so that people would surrender their life to Christ, but his presentation isn't so the people would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He is establishing the deity of Christ. That's his ministry.
If you happen to receive Christ based on that, that is all the better. But this is a document that establishes beyond doubt about the deity of Jesus Christ. If somebody has told you in the past that the Lord never called Himself God, well, they are mistaken. All through the Gospel of John He calls Himself God and we see that as we go through.
Then Peter says that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. Remember that the Jews of the first century understood that Son of God is a divine title, as I explained earlier. So for Peter to say that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, He is saying that Jesus is God.
In Matthew 16:16-17 Jesus again asked a very profound question. "Who do you say that I am." Again, Peter the same statement. "Thou are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus receives this statement as true and declared that Peter didn't come up with this idea on his own but that the Father had revealed this truth to Peter (because God can only tell the truth).
In john 20:28, Thomas, upon seeing and touching the risen Jesus exclaims, "My Lord and my God." Jesus does not rebuke Thomas for saying He is God, nor does He say Thomas is mistaken and then correct Thomas. No, Jesus accepts Thomas' statement of worship.
In Is. 43;15, YHWH says, "I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, you King." In Jn. 1:49, after Jesus calls Natanael, Nathanael says, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel." Jesus does not negate what Natanael states because this disciples is equating Jesus with YHWH of Is. 43:15.
Also, even demons knew that Jesus was God, calling Him the "Holy One of God" in Mk. 1:24; Lk. 4:34.
Next, I want to go to Hebrew1:6 where the inspiration of God had the author say that the angels worship Jesus, In Rev. there is worship of Jesus, the Lamb, along with the Father, who sits on the throne. How could this worship be allowed in heaven if Jesus was not God?
For now I will stop. There are many, many more verses that speak to Jesus; divinity. One can look on this site under the question "Is Jesus God?"
For me, I am convinced that Jesus is God and worthy of worship as God. And it is not idolatry to worship the Father and Jesus, the Son, for there are not two Gods (or three), but one God who exists as several divine persons who are one in nature.
8And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." ( Revelation 5:13)
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." ( John 20:29).
Starting with the middle verse; I thought it interesting to consider that IF this is to be taken chronologically; IMMEDIATELY after the Rapture and before the onset of the first seal being opened; everyone will praise God and Christ. I had originally noted that this occurs at the sixth seal; when mankind runs away from God and realizes His judgments have begun. This brings to mind what was said in the passage from John; we don't want to wake up in the Tribulation and have to face the horrors of that time and martyrdom to boot which will be the basic change once everything is revealed; the church age is over and the saints are to be overcome ( Daniel 7:25).
The Spirit reflects Christ in its operation. When Jesus spoke it was often in regard to bringing out the full meaning of the law (lust and anger) as general teaching to the crowd; or specific allegations to a group of Pharisees in particular as well as lawyers.
The Spirit causes individuals to have a general conviction of sin because we have a sense of God's holiness against our own condition. The end result of sin is death ( Romans 6:23) and hell. Godly sorrow brings repentance (and life) worldly sorrow death.
Having set forth a few warnings on how NOT to read scripture I will continue with some further analysis but thought I would begin discussion on how we should read it.
1. First and foremost; we need to be DEAD serious as to the eternal ramifications of our spiritual condition which is a result of our sinful inheritance through Adam as well as the acting out of our sins through commission of acts or omission of things the Lord has made clear result in judgment. One can quibble as to details of the description of hell; but it's reality and eternal finality are not options to disregard. To put it in simple terms those that believe in the Biblical heaven never seem to debate as to whether it lasts forever; and rarely that it is a literal place. Given the same descriptions of the finality of hell we have no reason from the text alone to debate the fact that there is a place of eternal torment for the wicked. The only caveat is that the current "holding cell" status of hell ends at the Great White Throne judgment; where all wicked are cast into their eternal existance in the lake of fire to continue their suffering in an eternal physical body that cannot be extinguished. There is hardly anything we can read or ponder on that has anything remotely resembling the urgency of the Bible. Our temporal earthly existence and our faith or lack thereof determines our eternal destiny; as well as degrees of reward or punishment based on actions on earth. Our life therefore is either in ourselves on the throne or God. Either Satan or God is our master and as the usurper of all earthly riches it is no wonder that the Babylon the Great economic system makes the love of money the root of all evil. ( 1 Tim. 6:10). What we see with human eyes at best is a dim reflection in Creation of God's glory. What is unseen is what we must believe; as every knee shall bow before Him someday ( John 20:29; Phillipians 2:10-11; Isaiah 45:23).
Pt. 2
Mt. 1:23 quotes Is 7:14 as being fulfilled in Jesus. He is "Emmanuel, God with us"
John 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus, "My Lord and my God" and Jesus did not tell Thomas that that was NOT true.
1Peter 1:1 says our righteousness comes from God, and it comes to us in Jesus our Savior. The righteousness
of Jesus is the righteousness of God because He is God.
Is. 9:6 says that Jesus is the "Mighty God"
Rev.1: Jesus says that He is the "Almighty"
Col. 2:9-10 says that in Jesus the fulness of the Godhead dwelled bodily. He is Emmanuel, God with us. God revealed bodily.
Jesus is worshipped by believers (only God is to be worshipped) and Jesus accepted this worship.
Mt. 2:1-2 (by the magi)
Mt. 28:8-9, 17 (by the apostles)
In Rev.5:13 we read of the worship of God in heaven. Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) are given worship and it is said that this worship is to be given to both forever.
it is important for us to realize that only God is righteous enough to be our Redeemer, and that He became man in order that his holy blood could be shed for us as a sacrifice. No other blood would cleanse but the blood of God the Son. In His divinity, God has no blood because the divine nature is Spirit, but in His humanity as God in the flesh, He had divine blood to shed.
Jesus is the most unique person in all of creation and in God's transcendent realm, being both God and man in one person.
I have heard this quote often, don't know the author, but it is worth pondering (this is not a direct quote)
If Jesus is not God, then there is no Christianity and those who worship Jesus are nothing but idolaters. But if He is God, then those who deny He is God are blasphemers in the worst sense of the word, because they believe in another Jesus than what Scripture presents to us.
God's Word is truth. He revealed Himself to mankind in Scriptures so that we can know the truth about Him: what He is in His divine nature and who He is in His Persons.
You asked, "what GOD's NAME was manifested by my Lord JESUS?" Yet, reading the rest of your comments, it appears to me that you hold to an "only Jesus is in Heaven" position, that when Jesus was made flesh, "GOD called Himself Jesus.." Really!!! So, as not to be mistaken, are you in that camp, that says 'that since God is in Christ that only Jesus is now in Heaven'? I'm hoping that I've misunderstood you, as we know most assuredly that when Jesus ascended into Heaven, He went back to the Father & is seated at His right Hand ( John 20:17, Acts 2:32,33, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 1:3, 1 Peter 3:22, etc.). So, NOT two Gods, but the One God, with Jesus His Son Who came forth out of God now distinct from Him through the incarnation. Thus He rightly fully claims the eternity of the Godhead (the Alpha & Omega), & also receives the worship of all. So your comments are troubling, if that is your position.
Thank you again, from my heart, the truth is my search not to offend. It all goes back to one verse when I read it, it stood out in my heart, Corinthians 11:4. I know I am alone here on this, but saying Jesus is part of the Triune God, who eternally exists and expresses himself as three distinct persons with one essence all three co-equal. One God in three persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This to me denies the Son, 1 John 2:23
What I see in the Bible is the relationship between the Father and the Son, the Son is obedient to the Father. Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, John 14:28. Jesus has said the Father is His God, John 20:17 Revelation 3:12.
The Bible defines God's nature as eternal and unchanging; there is only one throne of God and through the Bible, only the Father is on the throne until the Father raised His Son from the dead and placed Him on His right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, there is nothing about the Holy Spirit.
As we see in Revelation Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple and the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof, Rev. 21:22-23 no Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, not another person.
Jesus confirmed there is only one true God, Mark 12:28-34, in Jesus's prayer to His Father said in John 17:3. All the greetings in the New Testament are from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 6:23 1 Thessalonians 1:1 2 Timothy 1:2 Titus 1:4 2 John 1:3 and more but no Holy Spirit.
If the Trinity true and is so important, why is it not once taught in Scripture? God cannot change and God cannot die, so how do we understand John 3:16 if God the Father did not send his actual begotten Son to die for our sins? We see Jesus also had His own will, Luke 22:42.
God bless,
RLW
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
I have been wiped out on my computer TWICE trying to get this posting out. Seems the enemy doesn't want me to do this.
Or I had too many windows up at the same time. UGH.
Whenever I go to get scripture references I take a chance on wiping out the page; although my computer for some reason stalled out last run..
I will post this as an argument and rebuttal format just to do something different....
First assumption (as best I understand it). Christ didn't appear any other time in a bodily form except while here on earth.
It should be clear that Christ rose with scars remaining from His body which He had on earth that was resurrected. This is clear from "doubting Thomas" in John 20:28. There are numerous instances when Christ was indeed in a preincarnate form; such as with the incident with Abraham in Genesis 18:18 (where it also appears the discussion in the previous verses is between the Godhead as to whether these things should remain hidden). There is also the incident with the angel of the Lord in Hosea 11:4 cross referencing Jacob wrestling with God in the account of Genesis 32:22-32. For worship to occur these saints of God were indeed only to worship God. Since 1 John states that no one can see God and live; and Genesis 32:30 says that no one has seen God at any time; it seems clear that Christ was appearing in these cases. Numerous other verses could be cited.
The "us" verses.
We see in the original creation story in Genesis 1; as well as the narrative of the Tower of Babel ( Genesis 11:7) where "our image" and "us" is referred to in the creation of man; and the determination to confuse the language of men.
Argument Two: Main premise that God is one appearing in different "modes" or forms. To ignore that God is in distinct persons seems absurd in light of verses such as Luke 23:46 (where Jesus commended His spirit to God at death); and all other verses which showed Christ praying to the Father.
Good to hear from you, very good question. First, the Roman Church elevated Mary to the queen of heaven the same title as Tammuz's mother we see Israel worshiping. They say she ascended to heaven and much more. If we look at Acts we see Paul said that David is still in his tomb and has not ascended to heaven, Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34. Many believe after Jesus was resurrected saints were also resurrected and are in heaven and many pray to them. My understanding is no one has been resurrected all are in the grave asleep in death.
When God through His Spirit the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead He placed Jesus above all that is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, Philippians 2:9-11. God placed Jesus on His right hand on the throne of God, therefore giving Jesus the power of the throne.
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jesus also said John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
God the Father and Jesus will dwell in us by the Spirit, not in temples made by hands like Jesus said in John 4:21-23 and we see in 1 Corinthians 3:16. We see in 1 John 4:12-16 it is by the Spirit that Jesus who is sitting on the right side of God on the throne of God as the only mediator between us and God has been given the power of the throne until all enemies are under His feet, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
My humble understanding it is by the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit that Jesus can see and hear all. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and His God is our God the Father as Jesus said to Mary John 20:17.
God bless,
RLW
St Paul says,"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God./ But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Ro.10:17-18).We have the only guide which is His Word. Truth written in our inwards, which is our heart ,-not an anatomical part but a spiritual space. Writers use words to create a literary space. So when we read Gulliver's travel we are right there seeing as the author narrates it. It is an imaginary world. Not so withh the Bible. God framed the worlds by his word he made the quality of his Holiness.(He.11:3). So the unseen Will of the Father and the visible earth God the Son are mirror image created by faith. So. St Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as the visible image of God. (Col.1:15) For the same reason the Preacher says,'the Earth abides forever.'(Ec.1:4) Faith is one even as the Gospel is one. It is to which Paul refers in v.18.
God breathed into the nostrils of Adam and made him a living soul. So he has truth in his heart which makes his spiritual space meaningful. It is a world where man may know whatever he needs know of God, a Spirit. This is where Jesus Christ shall abide in a believer. So his eye of faith is active when he follows Jesus who set an example. Now that he has gone and is seated on the right hand of the most High, we may believe there is a royal highway connecting. So youand I are under the mighty shadow of His wings.(Ps.91:1). When we read from the Scripture our ear of faith catches the drift and it is how faith operates. You do not need any other guide than faith and the Spirit that raised up Jesus from the dead. As many as are led by the Spirit are the children of God.(Ro.8:14)
Before his Ascension Jesus breathed on his disciples ( John 20:22). Receive ye the Holy Ghost" God the Father and the Son work as one. So he as the visible God in his humanity proved faith, DNA of his Father. He is also called the last Adam.
Christ's argument is: If your law calls judges gods, why should I be held guilty of blasphemy for saying that I am the Son of God?
As per the other argument trying to discredit the word "one" sounds like your argument is that one doesn't really mean one, because Jesus used it to describe believers being one. I don't see how being one in unity as Christ's body somehow means that all the Bible verses about Jesus being God and divine suddenly don't apply? The verse about the Father and Son being one is only one of MANY verses competing the picture. The Bible already says Jesus the Word is God so how can you disregard that?
God: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 KJV
You: Word was "NOT" God?
"Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." John 8:19 KJV
Have you thought about how your belief reconciles with verses like this above?
Isaiah 7:14 -
Yes, Jesus is called Immanuel which means "God with us". People called Jesus "God". He's King of King and Lord of Lords. Alpha and Omega, first and last. Do you believe Jesus is Lord? I believe that is a requirement for even being a Christian. A Christ follower should know who Christ is.
1 John 5:7-8
John 10:30
John 8:19
Genesis 1:26
Genesis 11:6-7 (plural "us" which includes Jesus, as per John 1:1)
Philippians 2:5-8
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:3
Matthew 28:19
1 Peter 1:2
2 Corinthians 13:14
Deuteronomy 6:4
John 14:10
John 20:28
1 John 2:22-24
Matthew 1:23-25
Colossians 2:9
Acts 17:29
Romans 1:20
Isaiah 7:14
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:11
1 Corinthians 13:12 states: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This relates to our perception of Christ; but also of course in glory we will see other saints in their eternal bodies as well for the first time. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says: But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
For now we do get glimpses; should we take the time to discern them of the Holy Spirit uniquely working in each true saint of God.
In physical appearance we still may look the same at least to the world to our early life when we were still in the world. Our identity is in Christ if indeed we are saved; and we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds ( Romans 12:2). Glorification will give us bodies it would seem like Christ when He could go through walls or doors ( John 20:19); we will be able to eat and drink ( Rev. 19:9; compare with Luke 24:42-43; and Mark 14:25). We will also rule and reign with Christ after returning with Him at Armageddon ( Rev. 19:14; Rev. 2:26-27).
Having no more suffering as promised in Revelation 21:4 and no more death certainly is an encouraging throught. I would submit that understanding the reasons for all of our earthly struggles may be even more poignant than understanding the suffering itself. We can take heart that Christ has His church as a reward; and we also can rejoice (or should) in one another and the time on earth invested in the Body of Christ as well as helping to fulfill the Great Commission. Again; it is rewards that are the variable that we are to strive for as seen in 1 Cor. 9:24-27. I am convinved many who receieve great rewards are relatively unknown at present praying in their closet; giving secretly to missions and serving under the radar. God sees the heart (see Heb. 4:12).
This is a difficult subject to discuss openly. Being one is to be united in the holy love of God. The way we can do this is to become one with His Son, Jesus Christ the only way to the Father, John 14:6. When a man and woman are married, they become one as we through faith become one in Jesus. When Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist Jesus was filled without measure with the Holy Ghost/Spirit, God's Spirit, John 3:34.
God was manifested in Jesus, John 14:10 1 Tim. 3:10. Jesus was the Tabernacle of God, John 10:38. Jesus and the Father are one John 10:30 and Jesus told us we can be one as He and the Father are one, John 17:20-23. Jesus did nothing on His own, only the will of the Father, Jesus was obedient to the Father, Rom. 5:19 and as you said, Jesus was sent by the Father, John 5:30. The doctrine Jesus laid out was not His doctrine but His who sent Him, the Father, John 7:16.
All things are delivered unto Jesus of the Father, Matt. 11:27 and all in heaven and earth is under Jesus's feet, 1 Cor. 15:27 and will be until the last enemy is under His feet, that is death, Rev. 20:14. Jesus said the Father was greater than Him, John 14:28. Scripture says Jesus has a God, 2 Cor. 11:3 1 Eph. 1:3 Eph. 1:17 Col 1:3 Jesus said He had a God John 20:17.
In the garden, Jesus prayed to the Father that the cup He was about to partake could pass if there was another way, but said not His will but the Father's will, Matt. 26:39. All the introductions, greetings, and blessings in the Scriptures in the New Testament that are given to the followers of Christ and called to be saints from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, two not three.
Rom. 1:7-8 1 Cor. 1:3-4 1 John 1:3 2 John 1:3 2 Cor. 1:2-3 Gal. 1:3-4 Eph. 1:2-3 Phil. 1:2 Col. 1:2-3 2 Thess.1:2 1 Tim.1:2 2 Tim.1:2 Titus 1:4 Philemon 1:3 2 Pet. 1:2.
You must study the Scriptures letting the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God guide you to your understanding, not from my reply, or man.
God bless,
RLW
Back to the discussion we were having. My thoughts about that and what I have been tought are:
In Matthew 16:19 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gives the apostles the right to forgive sins. So what does that mean? That they can take God's right to forgive or not? Well this doesn't sound right, does it?
I will go to that incident in Corinth whre a brother was having an affair with his father's wife. Paul suggests the members of that church to ( 1 Cor 5:4-5) " 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
A similar case is described in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the case that a brother sins to another brother and dispite the church telling him to repent he wouldn't repent, so Jesus said "17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The above are cases that the church has the right to bind and free, forgive or not. The right of the church to exlude somebody from the congregation and deliver him to satan.
But a question may arise. What if the church is wrong and the specific brother is right. We know from history that many churches took advantage of those verses and exluded believers for all sort of reasons, even political reasons. I firmly believe that in such cases God doesn't pay any attention to such decisions, actualy He is the one who forgives or not.
But I would also like others to comment on those verse and see what they believe.
Have a blessed week.
Thanks for your patience.
Here's the scripture we have in question and how it reads.
John 20:21-23.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Here we have another one of those passages that has caused a lot of confusion.
I will share my thoughts on these verses.
Previously I stated we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is ALREADY loosed in Heaven.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
I would like to attempt to give more clarity on this.
One of the few translations that reflect key Greek nuances reads as follows
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained" The word forgiven is in the perfect tense. NASB.
In verse 22 Jesus breathed on them and said receive the Holyspirit and he sent them out. (After Pentecost)
By this power that they didn't have before, the apostles would be able to make "SPIRIT-LED SENTENCING" AFTER PRESENTING THE GOSPEL.
They would be led or inspired to either pardon or bound according to what has ALREADY been pardoned or bound by God.
I believe we are able to sound the horn of salvation we are not able to make the decision for salvation.
I am not sure about the translations
nevertheless that's the way I see those verses.
Thanks and God bless.
Before I turn in, here's one I meant to ask you about.
You gave your interpretation on John 20:21-23. and paralleled it with Matthew 16:19.
Here's how it went.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.,
You interpreted this passage of scripture as the following;
( We, the church, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.)
Giannis we don't have "The right " to forgive or retain the sins of people!
I believe as ambassadors for Christ We have the Gospel to present to the lost sinner. If you win a soul by way of the Gospel, you have loosed on earth that is already loosed in Heaven.
Only Christ can forgive sins.
God bless and Goodnight.
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I (Paul) forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
Doesn't the above remind us of the discussion Peter had with Jesus:
Matthew 16:19,
"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Also when Jesus appeared to his disciples after His resurrection?
John 20:21-23,
"21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
We, the chuech, have the right to forgive or retain the sins of people, only that it has to be done according to God's will.
"She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
Contextual truth is from Satan since it does not give truth its total sovereignty to the word as He intended. When He sent his Son he defined what he was. "I am the Way, the truth and the life" Instead believing it it opens way for extraneous matters judge truth. We have a couple of examples: Eve saw the fruit of the tree from the POV of Satan and let her senses settle the matter. Compare with Thomas who would not believe unless he saw the nail marks by his own eyes. What did Jesus Christ say," blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."( John 20:29). Adam in his turn let his love for Eve forget himself. He should have asked himself, "What has God said about eating of the fruit?" He simply ate what she gave to him.
Man thus became a servant to sin. Instead of the Law of Spirit he would be judged under the law of sin.
God had made his Will clear to Adam. What the serpent made of 'In the day' and saying thou shalt not die was at odds with the soul and it made the man accountable to God. God allowed to eat of all other fruits freely including from the tree of life. God's commandment, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," would have grave consequences upon the soul of man.
In the same vein the nascent church was given an underhand swipe when Constantine I adopted Christianity as the state religion. It eased the state policy of persecution. Outwardly it spared the body of the Church. Since then are we not assailed by heresies without let?
I also believe the nails were through His hands. John 20:27 seems to indicate hands.
I have also heard some say the nails were through His wrists. The reason they say this is because of the bone structure. They say that the way the wrist bones form right below the hand, that is the only way a nail would support the weight of the body.
My thoughts are that they probably tied Him down first before they drove the nails in, but that is just speculation on my part.
Greetings in Christ JESUS
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
About difference between soul and spirit, I also would like to highlight or point out the difference between HUMAN creation and other kind of animals. Genesis 1:24&26:
24 GOD said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind(may the Earth produce, or produce the Earth), cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. But about man,(v.26) GOD said, Let us MAKE MAN in our image, after our likeness: ...
If GOD had not breathed on man, this would be an animal like other animals in which GOD did not breathe the breath of life, in fact, that is why they do not speak a single word, even a letter, by nature.
I am a fruit of the multiplication that GOD ordered around 6000 years ago. I was born in the last century, but the order of my birth was given by my GOD millennia ago. I was born under His everlating Word of course. Job 33:4 -The Spirit of GOD hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Having said that, I would like to highlight and emphasize that when GOD breathed the breath of life into man, He actually gave man the ability to speak with his mouth, and thus dominate the earthly environment. John 3:31-He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth. So, he that is of above is above all.
John 20:22 - when JESUS had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
Isaiah 2:22 - Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?
Psalm 19:14 - Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.
Amen
Mode of Signs or gestures. (1 of 2)
Power principle of God is complemented by Wisdom principle, which can be explained in the Father Son relationship in many ways. In terms of the Word and expression, its glory in expression gives a sign language, which is expressed by the Spirit as a narrative mode. For example God gives charge to young Jeremiah which is a token, "Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, 'I have put my words in your mouth' "(Je.1:9). Similarly He gives Ezekiel a roll that empowers him for the purpose. "And he said to me, "Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the people of Israel.(Ez.3:1)" Jeremiah was young but it was His Power and His wisdom doing the tasks, "Thou therefore gird up thy loins, and arise, and speak unto them all that I command thee: be not dismayed at their faces, lest I confound thee before them".(Je.1:17)
When Jesus would cure the deaf and mute he looks up thereby fixing his faith which came from his Father, "And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened..(Mark.7:34)
Gestures like looking up or breathing on the disciples present ( John 20:22) for the above reason are not mere gestures but the Son expressing appropriate emotional significance as True and Faithful witness. He witnessed Truth before men and angels.
Spirit of humility marked his gestures. Apart from heaven being above he lifted his eyes up acknowledging by such a single gesture his lowliness. Blessings come from the greater on the lesser applied equally to him. When people would want to make him their king he slipped away from their hold.
He conducted himself as a witness before the Word though was the Word become flesh. In all these neither his gesture nor conduct would lift him in a spirit of pride. He could boldly say, the prince of this world comes and he has no hold over me. ( John 14:30)
Interesting viewpoint.
Here's another one that I find provocative.
In John 20:17, the word translated "touch" is a Greek word which means "to cling to, to lay hold of.
She wanted to worship him and never loose him again.
But there was still work to be done in cleansing our temple by presenting himself in our behalf.
Then in the same verse Jesus says why he told Mary not to touch him.
"FOR I AM NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER.
I believe Jesus was in his role as the High priest as this point.
He was to present himself as the sacrifice.
Hebrews 9:25-26. Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 10:12-22. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
And having an high priest over the house of God;
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
God bless.
Just something to consider or as you say so well meditate, thank you, brother.
John 20:17, just think sunrise on the morning of the Feast of First Fruits, Leviticus 23:9-14, a shadow of what was being fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead. The priests were waving the sheaf of grain left and right before the altar, and the women were arriving at the Lord's tomb around the same time. They could not eat or partake of the first harvest until it was waved and accepted by God, Jesus had to present Himself to God, He is the First Fruits of those of the dead, the first harvest.
Is this why Mary could not touch Him? We see later after He presented Himself and was accepted by God, after He returned then they could touch Him, Matthew 28:9. He was raised in His glorified body the same as we will be raised in our glorified body, 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 1 Corinthians 15:53-54. Eternal life is the gift and hope we have through Jesus Christ our Lord in Jesus.
God bless and amen to the may I add.
RLW
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV
Jesus resurrected from the tomb in the same body he completed the finished work in. Mary was not to touch and His message was that he would ascend to the Father his God and the brethren's God.
A born again Christian also resurrects from the grave in the body they died in. Until, we like Jesus ascend to the Father we must remain separate from sin. Jesus did exactly this as an example for us.
Romans 7:24 1 Corinthians 15:44 1 Corinthians 15:40
I'm with you, I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God given to us. A reason we differ, preconceived ideas are obstacles to the truth. We all grow up in cultures where we inherit certain biased beliefs, values, and attitudes from our parents, teachers, religious affiliation, peer groups, and friends. When we study the Bible unless we can clear these obstacles, and beliefs when we read our sub-conscience mind will block the true meaning with the ones we have stored in our mind.
We must empty our minds as we know nothing, take out the garbage, pray, and let the Spirit of Truth show us the true meaning of what we are studying. We must keep in mind we get milk first and then meat and it can be years between.
I also believe in one God and Father of all, who is the God and Father of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ.
John 20:17 Romans 15:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 5:20 Colossians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3 1 Corinthians 8:6.
God bless,
RLW
Thank you, God, who cannot be tempted of evil, James 1:13 or lie, Titus 1:2. God could not fulfill the law, flesh had to fulfill it because the curse of sin was on flesh. How could you fulfill a law if you were not capable of breaking it? We are told Jesus the Son of God was tempted as we are, Hebrews 4:15. He was made flesh for the suffering of death, Hebrews 2:9.
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Jesus had a will of his own but was obedient to the Father, Luke 22:42. Jesus did the works of the Father, John 5:36. Jesus was sent by the Father, John 4:34 John 7:16. Jesus did all the miracles by the Spirit of God that was given to Him without measure, Matt. 12:28 John 3:34, when He was anointed at the Jordan, Mark 1:10 Luke 4:18.
I hope this is correct forgive me if I am wrong. The Father is God but is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but is not the Father and is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but is not the Father and is not the Son. One God is three coexistent, co-eternal, and co-equal Persons.
If I may ask. If they are three persons, who is the Father of Jesus the Son of God? Matt. 1:18 Luke 1:35. Jesus many times said He has a God and a Father, Matt. 7:21 Matt. 12:50 John 20:17 2 Cor. 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 1 Peter 1:3. Jesus came in His Father's name, John 5:43.
My understanding, this is not a mystery that cannot be understood. God is a Spirit, John 4:24 It is His Spirit that dwelleth in us, 1 Cor. 3:16 1 Corinthians 2:10-12. God is Spirit, God is Holy. It is the Spirit of God that is the Holy Spirit.
Paul never used the Holy Spirit in his salutations. Jesus was begotten by His Father, Heb. 1:5. Jesus said His Father was greater than He John 14:28. Rev. 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
God bless,
RLW
First, I ask your forgiveness, and say the KJV is one of the most trustworthy English translations, but they are not perfect. When we study pray, and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding, we can trust the Holy Spirit will lead and teach us because the Spirit is truth, 1 John 5:6 do not doubt that. Believe the Scripture by being led by the Holy Spirit, not the traditions of man.
(Milk, then meat) it is a lifelong walk, and some answers will not be known but the one answer that matters is Jesus is the way.
John's gospel, his letters, and Revelation have one thing in common, to show and give evidence that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah, the only begotten Son of God who the Father sent, and in Him is life, our salvation, eternal life. Acts 4:11-12 The Father sent the Son John 4:34 John 5:30 John 6:29 Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the Father John 6:38.
Jesus came out from God John 16:27 Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 Before Mary could touch Him, He said I ascend unto my Father, and to my God John 20:17 John's writings are full of who Jesus was, is, and will be.
What I posted was not a lie, it is a fact, maybe I should not have posted it on an open forum like this. I wanted to inspire the study, searching for the truth, and not causing doubt. It touches on a subject that many consider non-discussable, the Trinity doctrine.
This is from my heart; this doctrine has been placed equal to the gospel of Jesus. In many Churches, you are not saved and are not a Christian if you do not believe and confess this doctrine. Does the Church have the authority to say this?
Is there any Scripture that says our salvation is dependent on this doctrine that was 400 years after the Scriptures we have? Was it even discussed by Peter, John, Paul, or in any of the letters we have? I'll leave it there.
I am sorry if I have offended you.
Love you all and God bless,
RLW
II. ABOUT THE RECIPIENTS:
It is to the church, the body of Christ. And John wrote based on the encouragement of the elders of Ephesus.
III. ABOUT THE GOSPEL OF JOHN:
About 95% of the information in the Gospel of John is not found in the other Gospels. So, it is new material.
What is interesting about the Gospel of John is that the entire Gospel covers 21 days of the Lord's three-year ministry. Just 21 days! 10 out of 21 chapters cover one week. 237 out of 879 verses cover one 24-hour period. So, these are very selective accounts for us about the things of Christ.
IV. ABOUT THE PURPOSE FOR JOHN WRITING THE GOSPEL OF JOHN:
He wrote in John 20:31, "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
He wrote so the people would believe. Now I think it is interesting that even though he wrote so that people would surrender their life to Christ, but his presentation isn't so the people would believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. He is establishing the deity of Christ. That's his ministry.
If you happen to receive Christ based on that, that is all the better. But this is a document that establishes beyond doubt about the deity of Jesus Christ. If somebody has told you in the past that the Lord never called Himself God, well, they are mistaken. All through the Gospel of John He calls Himself God and we see that as we go through.