Discuss John 5 Page 33

Paul is the only ONE in The Word of God that says, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY."

The Tribulation is a prophesied event for ISRAEL.

The Rapture is a MYSTERY for The Body Of Christ!

Jesus Christ reveals to Paul a NEW program.

Paul has a NEW Gospel in this Age of GRACE 1 Cor 15:1-4, believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, and we are SAVED all by grace through faith in that alone!

The Body of Christ has to be out of the way so that God can resume His prophetic program with Israel called The Tribulation.

Paul tells us The Body of Christ is saved from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Tribulation Gospel is NOT going to be good!

Revelation 14:7

Saying with a loud voice, FEAR God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his JUDGMENT is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

NO MORE GRACE in The Tribulation!

The Body of Christ SAVED today by The Gospel Of GRACE will be Raptured and then God deals with ISRAEL with The Tribulation with the everlasting Gospel.

The Rapture for The Body Of Christ and The Tribulation for ISRAEL; TWO Completely Different Programs for TWO Completely Different groups, with TWO Completely Different GOSPELS!

Ann Hering, Amen, very well said!!!

Amen, very well said!!!

Carlos: can't we agree to disagree?

JESUS said watch and be ready; keep your lamps filled with oil of the Holy Spirit. Period.

Ann Hering, The Bible is clear. See Matthew 24:29. There are differences of opinion on when Christ will return and if there will be an appearing before the coming. But the Scriptures are specific. See 2 Timothy 2. Perhaps you are right and we will be taken away before what Christ calls the Great Tribulation. That would be very nice, but it is unrealistic. Not only that, it is not Biblical.

If you take everything that is said about the Rapture and the 2nd Coming and separate them, which the Bible does not do, you are left with the same thing. Everything that is said about the Rapture falls in line with what is said about the Coming. If we say Paul distinguishes between these two events, we would contradict what he says.

1. The Bible never says the Rapture is before the Tribulation.

2. The Bible says that Christ said the Rapture is Immediately After the Tribulation.

3. The same events are attached to both (Trumpets, Clouds, Gathering, In the Air, Angels, Thief in the Night).

Where does the Bible contradict the words of Christ in Matthew 24:29?

Where does the Bible specifically say the Rapture is before the Tribulation?

But what is the real significance of what Christ and Paul said? Why is it important for Christians to know the truth about when the Rapture will take place?

I think I know the arguments, but if you list them, we can all discuss them one by one.

God judged sin on The Cross of Jesus Christ. God is not judging sin today, IF He was, we would all be zapped every time we sin!

John 16:33 was Jesus talking TO ISRAEL. Not us. Israel was going to be scattered very soon at the stoning of Stephen.

Israel is the Bride. We are the Body Of Christ. Big Difference. Satan is the "god" of this world and he is having his way with man and religion!

Paul is the only one in The Word Of God, Romans through Philemon, that tells you what your doctrine is today for this Age of Grace and salvation by grace by believeing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

One day, The Body of Christ will be taken, and then God is going to resume His prophetic program with Israel, and The Tribulation will culminate with the 2nd Coming Of Jesus Christ so ISRAEL will believe in THEIR Messiah, then The Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on this earth; The Kingdom God promised to Abraham, then into eternity.

Read Paul's letters to find out that all our sins are forgiven, past present and future just by believing The Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith, no works, no law, just what Jesus Christ did for US!

Two different programs. Israel and The Body of Christ. Paul tells us in 2 Tim 2:15 . . . Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth; that WAY you know what is for ISRAEL and what is for The Body Of Christ.

Remember Jesus came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel ( Matthew 10:6) Jesus was a minister of the circumcision ( Romans 15:8) Jesus came in the flesh for Israel ( Romans 9:5).

One day, God is going to gather ALL, BOTH Israel and The Body Of Christ, in ONE!

Ephesians 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are in earth; even in him.

I read something last night just really endeared The Lord to me. It was after the flood and Noah and his family were leaving the Ark.

I was reading & noted Genesis 8:20-22 and 9:8-17

In verse 21-22: And the Lord Smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said IN HIS HEART, I will not again curse the GROUND anymore for mans sake, for the imaginations of mans heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite anymore every thing living, as I have done.

While the earth remaineth seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat; and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. ( Jeremiah 33:25)

The token of the covenant of is the rainbow.

There was no anger. Sorrow in his heart.

What hurts us, hurts him.

How many times have we wept; why is this happening to me? Why didn't You stop it?

How so the earth groans for it's redemption. As should we all...

The point that most forget is that the coming horror upon the Earth is not A Tribulation, but THE GREAT Tribulation. There is a difference: Jn 16:33 tells us that in the world you will have tribulation, which must include our daily troubles whether small or big, as well as those who are burned at the stake for Jesus' sake. But the Great Tribulation is only attributed to God's Wrath & Judgement upon sinful mankind.

And God's Wrath has been seen in the past, in The Flood, at Sodom & Gomorrah, in God's dealings with idolatrous Israel. We have not seen His Full Wrath yet post Calvary, even though some claim that our natural devastating phenomena, including viruses, or the Holocaust are examples. The next time God moves in this way, will be at the time of the End of this age, & will be with Fire & not Flood ( 2 Pet 3:5-7).

So, can we presume that God will then have to judge His people, the Church, Christ's Bride, a second time for their sinful nature & ways? Or, will He take out (rapture) His Church (having already been judged & redeemed), so that His Wrath will be seen & felt by all unbelievers to the fulfilment of prophecy?

He will see his Mother again. A joyful reunion.

The Tribulation is not happening now. The Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble. That is a prophetic event. We are not in prophecy.

The Apostle Paul was buffeted by Satan because he preached The Gospel Of The Grace of God, believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, all by grace through faith in that alone!

Satan hates the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. Religion hates the preaching of the finished work of the cross for salvation. That is why Paul was beaten, stoned, and sorely mistreated because of The Gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)

Today no prophecy! The Body Of Christ will be taken out of here before God resumes His prophetic program with ISRAEL during The Tribulation!

There was a fullblood Indian mother that had never been to church or heard the word of God. Her son was born again, repented, believed on Jesus, he told her about Jesus and how she could be saved, that she should repent and believe, she asked her son can he (JESUS) understand my Cherokee language? He said yes mom he understands and she was saved and believed on Jesus. --- in the early 1920's - 30

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Ann Hering - You should try tell the Christians in many other countries today that the Christians will be gone before tribulation (not wrath) they are burning them alive, killing them today in very terrible ways. I would name several countries but may not be allowed to post.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (the word after has one meaning = not before)

Grace - Q: Did Jesus take the Kingdom of God from the Jews?

A: Matthew 21:43 - Therefore say I (Jesus speaking to the Jews) unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. So which language was the New Testament written in? GREEK.

Why? King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. It was not the Romans who troubled Jesus.

Jesus had it with their man made rules in Matthew 23:15 - Jesus speaks: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (Jews) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 2X the child of Hell does not sound very nice.

no one can prove to me from the Bible alone that the family of Jesus called him Yeshua.

Besides Rabbis called Jesus YESHU which is a curse meaning may his name be blotted out.

Luke Chapter 1

:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

(Angel Gabriel gave JESUS his name from the Lord)

so what scriptural authority does anyone have to call him YESHUa?

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

I believe the Bible is right Jesus is not in error.

I appreciate your well thought out reply Carlos. Your conclusion made me think this of this verse: 1 John 5:7 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.' It seems to me that you didn't need any theology to reach your conclusion. The answers were in God's Word, as they always are!

The heroes of faith in the Old Testament learned that it was the LORD that won the battle every time. Their part in any victory was to simply believe and do as he commanded them.

In Matthew chapter 4, Jesus withstood the devil's temptations by using scripture. The better we know the Word of God, the greater our ability to stand against the assaults of the tempter.

In John chapter 15 we learn that unless we abide in Jesus Christ, we can do nothing. We wither as a dried branch off the vine.

In Ephesians 6, we are instructed in the proper use of the armour of God and told that our warfare is in the spiritual realm, not against flesh and blood.

1 Peter 5:8-11 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 John chapter 2 gives us some great instruction on the battles we face with our own nature and the ways of this world.

1 John 5:4-5"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Page 1.

DaLanie, okay, I do understand the restrictions for visiting at present, though no doubt, these will ease in the weeks ahead. The matter of prayer & specifically the answers we expect from God, has resulted in some folk overjoyed in answers received & others disappointed & wondering whether God even heard them.

Prayer is essentially a child of God's conversation with his/her Father. It can comprise of many things, but mainly in praise & worship and in petition. Your urgent & longing prayer to the Father is for His intervention in your loved one's predicament & for the forces that acted against him/her be dealt with. All we can do in our petitioning to God is to first love Him & obey Him in everything He asks of us. Secondly, we have to come to Him in simple faith ( James 5:15, 16: speaks of prayer of faith & effectual, fervent prayer). Thirdly, we must pray according to His Will (1 John 5:14, 15: is about asking about matters that are in His Will, & if so, He will hear us (not that He doesn't receive our prayers, but that He hears with the intention of responding)). Fourthly, that His answers to our prayers are not always the way we would like it to be, i.e. God has His reasons that encompass a larger view of the matter than we have, or His timing is different, His purposes are unknown to us, etc.

So Chris, with respect to your questions, listed below, I offer what follows.

A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48

B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36

C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16

D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24

E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2

To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.

If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.

What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.

Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.

Ric - I am no fan of the Pope or the Vatican. However it was not Rome that killed the apostles, the prophets or Jesus.

King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.



John 7:1 - After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.

Revelation 11:8 - And their (2 witnesses) dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Jesus, my LORD, was crucified in Jerusalem, which is spiritually called Sodom)

Jesus in John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 23:12 - And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Jesus speaks in Matthew 23:15 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (ALL Pharisees are Jews, not all Jews are Pharisees) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Rabbis say Jesus was antisemitic)

Greetings Ken, Agreed we need to believe and depend on HIS WORKS, not our own.

However Jesus said some things to consider

Jesus said in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Someone asked Jesus what was the most important commandment.

Matthew 22:36 - Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 - Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 - This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 - And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 - On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Mark 6:12 - And they (12 apostles) went out, and preached that men should repent.

Jesus speaking in Luke 13:3 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

and again Luke 13:5 - I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish

Repent of what?

Act 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Revelation 2:21 - And I gave her space to repent of her (SIN) fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 2:22 - Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit (SIN) adultery with her into great tribulation,

except they repent of their deeds.

Jesus speaking and telling the BELIEVING CHURCH IN EPHESUS TO REPENT

Revelation 2:1 - Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

Rev 2:4 - Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Rev 2:5 - Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,

and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Jesus told the believing church to repent...of what?

Papal Rome is indeed not what Paul saw in his day. However the Bible defines what antichrist means.

1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (ALL Jews deny Jesus and that makes them antichrist, if they believed in Jesus then they would be CHRISTIANS. IF you do not believe me call any Synagogue and ask them if Jesus is the Messiah.) If they refuse to use the name Jesus as the angel Gabriel named him and use Yeshua I suspect they may not what be they claim to be

1 John 2:23 - Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

If Jews do not accept Jesus as messiah, then who is their messiah?

1 Corinthians 16:22 - If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (CURSED) Maranatha.

DO JEWS LOVE JESUS OR ARE THEY CURSED?

Rome did not kill Jesus. John 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Pilate wanted to release Jesus.

King James Bible book of John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14, 16 - For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST

The only way we can get to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ. His blood was shed for our sins. It is He that cleanses us. The only hope is in Jesus. Sin is the transgression of the Law. Which law? The ten commandments. All the ceremonial laws, the feasts, all the sacrificing of animals was done away with at the cross. Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit didn't need our help when He made the earth, moon or hung the stars. He said everything He made was good and he rested the seventh day and blessed it and sanctified it. He didn't do that on any other day. We can worship God every day but we cannot keep each day holy.

I John 2:3,4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." ! John 5: 2,3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments; and his commandments are not grievous". Roman 7: 7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not know lust, except the law had said,Thou shalt not covet." The ten commandments is our "map" to salvation. It is God's character. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that we can be saved.

We cook and clean house and do nice things for our family and friends. Why? We love them and want to please them. If we love Jesus we should want to please him. We have to have a one on one relationship with Him. Jesus should be the center of our life. He is love. Jesus said, if you love me keep my commandments.

May the Holy Spirit be with you as you study God's word.

God has NOT cast away His people Israel!

Romans 11:1

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin.

Israel stumbled at the cross, and fell at the stoning of Stephen.

BUT through their (Israel's) fall, salvation came to the Gentiles through the apostle Paul and the gospel, believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith.

God will resume His prophetic program with Israel after The Body Of Christ is raptured (taken) out of the way.

Jesus Christ is Creator God.

Lucifer is a created being.

Not the same!

The tares are Israel who DID NOT believe that Jesus was The Christ (Messiah) of God.

The wheat are Israel who DID believe that Jesus was The Christ (Messiah) of God.

At the harvest of the world, at the end of the Tribulation, angels are the reapers, tares are gathered and burned, wheat are left.

The Rapture is a Mystery revealed to Paul for the Body Of Christ, both Jews and Gentiles, who believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, by grace through faith.

Two different programs!

Jeff,

First of all, thanks for responding.

Okay, your definition of betrayal makes perfect sense to me. I can see how it would relate to being betrayed by a friend. However, if I were to place Judas in the category of friend or true believer, I would say friend, but with extreme hesitation.



I would say Judas exercised his "free will" to be evil the entire 3 years of Christ's ministry. If Judas was ever a true believer or friend, Jesus never mentioned him in a positive way. In fact, the only time Jesus makes reference to Judas, he calls him a devil. Doesn't sound like much of a friendship to me! And I highly doubt that Jesus would ever call a true believer a devil.

Of course Judas was part of the group that Jesus chose, but calling him a true believer does not fit. A true believer would not steal from the group. Judas did.

If Judas exercised his "free will" to leave the faith as you are saying, the bible says he showed remorse. He was so remorseful that he even tried giving the 30 pieces of silver back. And the remorse was so unbearable that he killed himself. If he was that remorseful for exercising his "free will" to betray Christ, why didn't he use his "free will" to ask Christ for forgiveness?

Jesus chose Judas because he needed an evil person to fulfil the prophecy given in Zechariah Chapter 11 Verse 12. Jesus knew ahead of time that He would be betrayed. And He knew it would be Judas when He chose him.

It's such a blessing for me to know that Christ knows what I'm going to do tomorrow and every day of my life after that. He even knows the day I'm going to die. He knows! I don't have a clue what my days might bring, but He knows, just like He knew it would be Judas who would betray Him when He chose Judas.

Jeff, I perfectly understand your need to spend time with the family & therefore no immediate comment is expected.

Just to offer a quick response to your comment: I fully agree that all of Scripture, including the Gospels & Jesus' instructions, must be considered, when dealing with any issue. However, I always keep one thing in mind when I refer to Scripture pre-Cross/Pentecost: whoever Jesus was talking to or whatever teaching He was giving, was of course to let His hearers know the Father's Mind & Will, but we bear in mind, that the Holy Spirit had INDWELT none of His disciples. I know this point can be argued, but the Gift was UPON them, e.g. in their ministry of healing, casting out demons, etc., as a temporal measure, & as an extension of Christ's ministry on Earth & their position as disciples.

It was not until Pentecost, that they were endued "with Power from on High" to begin a true life as Christians & to labour even to sacrificing their lives (except in the case of John), for the Name of Jesus. So any reference to 'perseverance' pre-Pentecost, I consider as one's effort without the help & Power of the Holy Spirit within.

Now, at the references to it post-Pentecost, then 'perseverance' is still an 'effort' by the believer ( Heb 6:4-6), but now we not only have the Spirit's convicting & help in 'setting our hearts right' immediately, but also a reminder to the believers tending to slacken off, that they need to get back to correct thinking & personal discipline. They would not lose their salvation, but they stood to become spiritually destitute & deserving of God's dealing with them ( Heb 12:3-11) as a result. I think that where the problem appears between us, is the fact of God's eternal Seal upon us & the subsequent Spirit's indwelling which removes the possibility of a soul being lost forever. Yes, our choice to remain true or depart is still there, but the Spirit simply can't permit that to occur & His Work aligns with our spirit to persevere.

Why is when the rapture / resurrection a hotly contested thing? It was not even debated until 200 years ago.

Jesus tells us plainly in Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed (weeds) tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (first the tares WEEDS get gathered, the wheat last) could it be any more plain than this?

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Jesse, thanks for the comment. Forgive me if this reply is short, but this is my family day, so I don't have time to write something long. You said, "He can't be betrayed by one of his own." Yet, this is the very definition of being betrayed. A person is not betrayed by an obvious enemy, but by someone who was his friend. Judas Iscariot exercised his free will to leave Christ. I believe he was a true believer, because in Matthew chapter 10, he was one of the disciples listening to the instructions of Jesus to go out and heal the sick and drive out demons. Judas was evidently given that power, which isn't given to non-believers.

We can freely choose Christ when we first believe, and after we become Christians we don't become robots. We're free to persevere or free to leave the faith. It's a sobering thought.

Chris, thanks for the reply. I can't take the time to answer all of what you said right now, as this is my only day to spend with my family. My only reply would be to focus on the statements of Jesus in the Synoptics, which are very clear. People often start with Paul, or the Book of Hebrews, and these letters have some very difficult-to-understand sayings. Jesus, however, warns again and again that we must persevere. As you have said, we must use deductions sometimes, and I can say there is no need to warn someone to persevere if that person is incapable of NOT persevering.

Angela: I Googled Revelation Time Charts. Lots and lots. Pick one from a preacher that you trust. Most likely each one varies from the other.

A great teacher was Grant Jeffreys