John
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And I could add another verse that could give more support to those who believe that our salvation could be lost: Heb 6:4-6. As you know, it refers to the 'believer' who falls away (turns his back to God) having once partook of Salvation, the Word & the Holy Spirit. When we examine this portion (& hopefully using the light given & not diluting with human logic), we understand that after the Hebrews writer rehearsed with the believers the things they had learned, he wanted them to go onto 'perfection' = greater maturity, leaving behind the "milk of the Word & to receive strong meat" ( Heb 5:12).
The writer adds verses 4-6 (I suggest, in parenthesis) reminding them of those who MAY have been a part of their company (this group's presence there is not certain, from the reading), who had received the Light from the Word, partaken of all that was taught to them or given to them & behaved nobly, but afterwards chose to reject all that they heard & received, they had placed themselves (by choice) in a position of no further opportunity for salvation (v 8). One might think that this understanding is an attempt to force the Eternal Security belief. However, the Writer goes on in v 9, "But beloved (the Hebrew Church), we are persuaded better things of you, & things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak": i.e. "I don't believe you are fake believers as those I've just described, but are genuine, who are maturing in the knowledge of Christ". My apologies for the paraphrase, but I want to emphasize my understanding here. True believers are secure in His Love & they can never be rejected by our Loving Father, nor can they ever choose to reject Him. And sadly, the Church is filled with both types, but it is the Lord Who remains our Judge of our hearts, not us. And sadder still, the Church often fails to preach Phil 2:12, so many enter into a false sense of security believing that "saved now means I can do whatever I like". A damnable teaching.
Re: "wouldn't a believer...". This was not intended to be an expression of my 'human logic' but one of deduction based on Scripture. Let's face it, we all have to make deductions/judgements on what we learn, or else we would be no better than robots, which just regurgitate (& maybe by use of mathematical calculations) what is fed into them. So I won't labour that point further.
And speaking of Judas: not only he, but all of the disciples could have walked away from the Lord, but the Lord knew that they wouldn't, except Judas, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? ( Jn 6:20), as Jesse pointed out. And I appreciate the Scriptures you cited: they are very precious & relevant; none of them are 'dismissed'. And I refer to them now:
Mt 6:15: true. How can we expect God's forgiveness, if we fail to show forgiveness to others? A genuine believer will always forgive, or at some point (soon) experience that change of heart.
Mt 24:13: I believe in the 'perseverance of the saints'. In another thread, I had written about remaining true to the Lord despite all that may be thrown upon us, even to the point of laying down our lives (which Peter as a carnal, unsaved man failed to do, but after his salvation & at his martyrdom, he demonstrated a glowing testimony of his unswerving devotion to the Lord Whom he first denied). Our salvation & faith are proven, not only by the works that follow us (Js 2), but also how we finish the race. The true believer will live a fruitful life & never deny the Lord.
Rev 3:5: fully agree (as per comment for Mt 24:13).
(see following comment).
I might be intruding in your conversation, and please accept my apology. But you have stirred my curiosity on something. You mention Judas walking away from his salvation. Someone else in another post said that Judas was a Christian. I have never heard anyone refer to Judas as being a Christian, or saved for that matter. In John 6:70, Jesus said have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
Jesus did not choose Judas Iscariot to become evil. He chose him to be part of His ministry because he was evil, because the scriptures must be fulfilled that He be betrayed, And He can't be betrayed by one of His own. There has to be a demon in the camp! Judas was evil the entire time, and only Jesus knew it.
But I'm still impressed by how after three years, Jesus can announce to the disciples at the Last Supper that one of you will betray me, and none of the disciples knew who it was.
You would think that after three years, if Judas Iscariot is a demon, you would think that the others would have noticed something strange about him during that three year period and say "I knew there was something weird about that guy!"
But they didn't know. He talked like them, acted like them, and looked like them. They couldn't notice any difference over three years. You would think maybe over a month that he could deceive them for a whole month, but three years?
That is scary! That's why believers in the body of Christ, even in our day, in the last days, we must trust and go by the Word of God not by appearances.
The Complete Jewish Bible by "messianic believer" Doctor David Stern writes:
Presenting the Word of God as a unified Jewish book, the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) is a translation for Jews and non-Jews alike. It connects readers with the Jewishness of the Messiah. Names and key terms are returned to their original Hebrew and presented in easy-to-understand transliterations.
The CJB is a translation of the Bible into English by Dr. David H. Stern. It consists of Dr. Stern's revised translation of the Old Testament (Tanakh) plus his original Jewish New Testament (B'rit Hadashah) translation in one volume.
In Isaiah 14 (REMOVED LUCIFER AND INSERTS MORNING STAR) Their argument is Lucifer is a "Latin" word that does not belong in English. About 20% of English comes from Latin. Does Taco not belong in English since it is Spanish?
Satanists and Luciferians know who Lucifer is. Read Carefully
Isaiah 14: (the fall of Lucifer)
11 Your pride has been brought down to Sh'ol (Hell)
with the music of your lyres,
under you a mattress of maggots,
over you a blanket of worms.'
(KJV uses Lucifer Stern inserts MORNING STAR who FELL from Heaven)
12 "How did you come to fall from the heavens,
MORNING STAR, son of the dawn?
How did you come to be cut to the ground,
conqueror of nations?
13 You thought to yourself, 'I will scale the heavens,
I will raise my throne above God's stars.
I will sit on the Mount of Assembly
far away in the north.
14 I will rise past the tops of the clouds,
I will make myself like the Most High.'
So who fell from heaven going to the pit of Hell? THE MORNING STAR.
Who is the Morning Star? Stern says Jesus is Yeshua
Revelation 22: 16 "I, (Jesus) Yeshua, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the Messianic communities. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright MORNING STAR.
Did you catch it Jesus is Yeshua the MORNING STAR in Rev 22 and in Isaiah 14 Yeshua fell from heaven making him Lucifer essentially
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ( Matthew 6:15)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. ( Matthew 24:13)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ( Revelation 3:5)
There are other verses I can provide, if you're interested. The clear testimony of the Bible is that we must persevere in the grace of God, otherwise we will be lost. No one can snatch us out of God's hand, but that doesn't mean that we cannot walk away from him. Quite frankly, the fact that OSAS is so popular in America, scares me, because it is making people take their salvation lightly.
So after what is said above, I refer to 1 Cor 9:27. I know that this verse is sometimes used to show Paul's fear of losing his salvation if he didn't persevere with all diligence in the faith, but is that the meaning of the Scripture? He speaks of bringing his body (with any remnants of its affections & lusts) into subjection (making it a slave instead of vice versa). And if he failed to do so, then after speaking of the victory that his hearers can have in Christ, he himself should be a castaway (Gk. adokimos = not standing the test & being rejected). Now, if 'rejected' means 'loss of salvation' to you, so be it. But I see in Paul's application, that he is actually speaking of him becoming a hypocrite & one unworthy of the high office of an apostle. And this is the thing he feared: that he would displease his Lord & shame Him in his ministry. I almost see a connection with Acts 20:28, when Paul sent for & spoke to the Ephesian elders, "to take heed unto yourselves (lead circumspect lives) & to all the flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers...".
"That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoureth NOT the Son, honoureth Not the Father which hath sent him."
Jesus has numerous names; having different meanings. John 1:21 shows his name at birth...Jesus."
It's the only name by which you are saved.
My point refers to : "The Bible is very clear about salvation being conditional upon using the correct names". This has raised my interest (apart from what the spelling should be from the original languages). Are you saying, that if the incorrect name is used, then salvation is denied? Any Scriptures to back this up? Thank you.
Yes I agree the name Jew never existed until at least 400 years ago.
Just like Yahuah, who name his son, with his own name Yahusha, he also name his chosen people after himself, they are called Yahudim.
Yahuah also name the land where they lived after his own name Yahudah. Not Judah.
Matthew is also wrong, as Yahuah also name him with his own name within his correct name - Mattithyahu.
You are only reading the name Jesus because that's what Christian Bible all say.
No the New Testament was not written in Greek it was translated from Hebrew into Greek and it was this translation where they CHANGED Yahusha to IESOUS then more recently changed IESOUS to Jesus.
Yeshua is also incorrect, so no I am not of "this Yeshua group" as you put it.
You have taken Titus 1:14 out of context so I want bother with that.
Do you really think that your Jesus really spoke to the Hebrews in Greek? REALY!
Anyway Yahuah only loves those who call upon his name and the name of his son Yahusha.
Prov 8:17 I love those who love me.
A: Mathew 21:43 Therefore say I (Jesus speaks to Jews) unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(Lets see was it the Jews who killed Jesus and Christians? The Greeks who spread the orthodox christian faith all over eastern Europe.)
Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2:14 - 16 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, EVEN AS THEY HAVE OF THE JEWS: WHO BOTH KILLED THE LORD JESUS, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and THEY PLEASE NOT GOD, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.
King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
John 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
1 Corinthians 16:22 - If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (CURSED) Maranatha.
DO JEWS LOVE JESUS OR ARE THEY CURSED?
In Mark 15: 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard [it], said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
these Jews did not even understand what Jesus was saying in Hebrew
John 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. so why would this tell you in the Hebrew Gabbatha if it was originally in Hebrew? NO it was in Greek, it was Jews who killed Christians
Your response actually proved my point, but you don't yet realize it.
>As to Jerusalem it's also wrong. It's Yerusalayim.
I thought you would say that and my point in my last comment is that your new word is wrong. The reason is that it's still not in Hebrew or Greek. Hebrew uses the Jewish script and is a different word than what you've written. You can use Google Translate to see for yourself or just research the language. English uses Roman/Latin characters and you're thinking a word is wrong when it isn't then attempting to only partly translate it back to a language while still keeping your own familiar characters. Someone could call what you did there 'false'.
>The letter J was only invented 400 years ago making it impossible for the English name Jesus to be the Hebrew name of the Messiah.
Why would a name in one language ever be the same in another language with a different alphabet? Jesus is the correctly translated name into English. The word Jesus is a different word in each language such as using the Hebrew or Greek alphabet. What you assume is the 'real word' in Roman / Latin characters is still incorrect because you're not using the right alphabet. If you actually want to say/read Jesus's name in the original languages you would actually need to learn to read/write ancient Greek and Hebrew. You can see what it looks like on this site: Link
Yes I agree the name Jew never existed until at least 400 years ago.
Just like Yahuah, who name his son, with his own name Yahusha, he also name his chosen people after himself, they are called Yahudim.
Yahuah also name the land where they lived after his own name Yahudah. Not Judah.
Matthew is also wrong, as Yahuah also name him with his own name within his correct name - Mattithyahu.
You are only reading the name Jesus because that's what Christian Bible all say.
No the New Testament was not written in Greek it was translated from Hebrew into Greek and it was this translation where they CHANGED Yahusha to IESOUS then more recently changed IESOUS to Jesus.
Yeshua is also incorrect, so no I am not of "this Yeshua group" as you put it.
You have taken Titus 1:14 out of context so I want bother with that.
Do you really think that your Jesus really spoke to the Hebrews in Greek? REALY!
Anyway Yahuah only loves those who call upon his name and the name of his son Yahusha.
Prov 8:17 I love those who love me.
I don't know where you got your information from but it's not correct.
If you read a bible for yourself then you may start to gain some insight, knowledge and understanding?
The Bible is very clear about salvation being conditional upon using the correct names.
The KJV doesn't ever tell you "the Lords" name?
No his name is not "the Lord" nor is it "God"
If you bother to read a bible then you will see for yourself that we are commanded to call upon His name. "Yahuah"
As to Jerusalem it's also wrong.
It's Yerusalayim.
Once again;
Acts 4:10-12
10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the NAME of Yahusha
of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom Yahuah raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11Yahusha is the stone you builders rejected,which has become the cornerstone.'
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
The letter J was only invented 400 years ago making it impossible for the English name Jesus to be the Hebrew name of the Messiah.
Christian Bibles use the false name Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:10-12
10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the NAME of Yahusha
of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom Yahuah raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11Yahusha is the stone you builders rejected,which has become the cornerstone.'
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
The letter J was only invented 400 years ago making it impossible for the English name Jesus to be the Hebrew name of the Messiah.
Christian Bibles use the false name Jesus Christ.
If you don't get it, that's ok.
Yahuah only wants those who call upon His name-Yahuah and His sons name Yahusha.
One could argue that the word 'Yahusha' is actually false, because you're attempting to use an incompletely translated name using English characters. If you spoke Hebrew you would speak and write that word differently, and not just any Hebrew, but it would have to be old, ancient Hebrew. Also, since the New Testament is in Greek, to be precise you would need to learn the exact Greek dialect at the time of Jesus in order to pronounce and write Jesus's name properly. Otherwise it's 'false teaching'? The point is that it's normal for each language to have the words translated. It would be a logical fallacy to assume that because J in English wasn't made until later that the city of Jerusalem doesn't exist, for example, or that it's not called Jerusalem. Should we be upset that the United States of America is also translated into each language too, like in Hebrew- so are they lying by calling us that in their own language? Just challenging the assumptions about language. Jesus is the name in English.
JJJJ Jews do not exist either?
these Yeshua group are basically DENYING the King James Bible.
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
The angel Gabriel told Mary to name him Jesus, not Yeshu which is a curse Jews say may his name be blotted out from under heaven.
Luke 1: 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
So do we believe the Bible or Jewish fables that the New Testament Bible was originally Hebrew and mistranslated by those pagan anti-Semitic Greeks?
Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
He came in his fathers name, literally!
His Fathers name is Yahuah.
And his name is like his fathers, Yahusha.
Yahu, meaning the Father.
Sha, means saves.
Put them together and Yahusha means Yahuah saves or Yahuah's Salvation.
Jesus means absolutely nothing!
Acts 4:10-12
10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the NAME of Yahusha
of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom Yahuah raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.
11Yahusha is the stone you builders rejected,which has become the cornerstone.'
12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
The letter J was only invented 400 years ago making it impossible for the English name Jesus to be the Hebrew name of the Messiah.
Christian Bibles use the false name Jesus Christ.
- [ ]
I greet you in name Our Lord Jesus Christ. Hope you're well.
I am a new Christian, I gave my life to Our Lord nearly 2 years ago and it's been the best thing I have ever done. I've had joy and peace in my life since then.
I was baptised many years ago, but because of my immaturity I went back to sin.
The answer to your question " how to get closer to The Messiah " First of all the bible says " For whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom 10:13
Believe, that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Then you have to be baptised.
Acts 2:38 Peter said, Repent, and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
A few more scriptures for you to look at:
Ephesians 2:8-9
2 Timothy 2:15
1 John 1:9
Romans 6:23
1 John 5:13
Mark 16:16
Romans 10:9-10
Hope these scriptures will help and give you a good start to getting closer to Jesus Christ our Saviour.
God Bless you, and I will pray Trevor that you will get the wisdom & knowledge for God's Words.
What and awesome and powerful testimony, Amen. I can sit and read that all day and be blessed by it each time!
Absolutely, that's the definition of freewill. If you believe a Christian is incapable of being tempted and sinning then you don't believe in freewill, which defeats the whole purpose of life on earth and Jesus dying on the cross for you so that you have the opportunity to CHOOSE whether you want to follow Him or not, and if you do then you everyday make the same decision on whether you want to continue to follow Him. It's not a one time task that you check off your list then go back to being in the world. It's a life transforming decision that requires regular discipline. If avoiding sin was automatic then why do Christians struggle with sin so much both in the Bible and today? Paul described his struggle in Romans 7:19. If he was incapable of sin then he wouldn't struggle. If followers couldn't sin Jesus wouldn't have warned his disciples so many times to avoid sin and be obedient and wouldn't have taught them or others so many lessons.
>a true genuine believer cannot live a lifestyle of continuous sin, the lifestyle they lived prior to salvation. It's impossible.
If impossible then why does it happen so often? It sounds like if someone sins beyond a certain point then you don't believe they are a Christian. Why is that? Who do you think is a Christian then? Is someone who repents, confesses, believes Jesus is Lord, is baptized and follows Him a genuine-enough Christian? What if they later turn from Christianity, were they suddenly never a 'genuine' Christian then? Since you don't know anyone's future actions can you ever be 100% sure of anyone being a 'genuine believer'? I believe the Bible is clear that anyone can be saved and can start their journey to follow Jesus and are a Christian. They still have freewill though and some later turn away. Maybe you've never met them but some Christians do this. Hebrews 6:4 Hope this helps.
For instance since Hitler attended mass while growing up and may have accepted Christ during that time before he became an atheist, and this OSAS teaching would say his later actions are all covered by grace according to this teaching. The Bible says most people will go to hell Matthew 7:13 and there's currently 2.5 billion claiming to be Christians and if they all made it in that would be a very wide gate. A % don't follow Jesus anymore and love committing sodomy, fornication, lust, drunkenness, murder, and variety of sins. Some do this because they believe a teaching that says they'll already go to heaven so their sins don't matter. So, I think souls will be lost due to the OSAS teaching which doesn't seem to be from God or supported by scripture. All other questions seem to be distractions from this important salvation issue. I believe exactly what Jesus says that many will be surprised they learn they won't go to heaven: Matthew 7:13. The audience Jesus spoke to was both non-Christian and Christian, but that specific verse was talking to people who believed they were a Christian follower and thought they would be saved. James 2 explains this.
Every believer can be tempted to sin, and every believer does commit single acts of sin. However, a true genuine believer cannot live a lifestyle of continuous sin, the lifestyle they lived prior to salvation. It's impossible. I tried to explain my view to you, but this becoming Hitler, committing mass murder, and worshipping Satan doesn't even come close to the view I presented to you.
And why do you believe Judas was a Christian? I would like to know how you come to that conclusion. Judas betrayed Christ because it was prophesied that he would. When God prophesies something, it will happen. And Peter was told ahead of time that he would deny Christ. Peter learned his lesson, wouldn't you say? Why did Jesus ask Peter three times "Do you love me?" Since you say both Judas and Peter were Christians, and one denied Christ, and one betrayed Him, did they lose their salvation?
Let me ask you this. What makes a person a Christian? Can a person be a Christian if they don't have the Spirit of Christ living in them?
Let me give you another answer you ask of me. You ask why do we see Christian pastors and worship leaders periodically leave and denounce the faith? Many professing believers do leave and denounce the faith. I don't disagree with that. But you want to know why they leave. 1 John 2:19 tells you why. They leave because they were not genuine believers. Pretty simple!
I hope you take the time to answer my questions, as I have answered yours.
We all fall short of perfect, but God gave us Jesus our Lord. Each one of us choose the narrow gate or the wide one, every day.
I love studying in this discussion group. It gives me a lot of encouragement to widen my scope when it's just me and a Bible. Seeing what troubles other people, helps me to pray better. When I was unsaved, I used to sit in the dark and rock, and pray over and over, "somebody help me." The first thing God did for me, was peel me like an onion. Everything I trusted in was removed. It lasted a year and a half. Then I was ready to meet my Savior.
How do you turn your back on that? I'm grateful. There's a sense of Divine romance. You tell Him your stories (which He already knows) and you read His stories in his Word. It should get sweeter and deeper.
Contending with compromise diminishes the sweetness. It doesn't matter if you're male or female.
God is exactly what the unsaved sinners want. Someone they can trust. Good night all.
If you are saved, which I believe you are, but since we cannot save ourselves, once you were saved and until the day you depart this earthly life, who are you trusting in to remain saved, yourself, or God?
What does it mean to you to surrender your life to Christ?
Who are you placing your trust in as far as your salvation goes, God, or yourself?
Do you personally yourself believe that between now and the time you depart this earthly life, you will reject Christ and turn away?
If you yourself one day decide to reject Christ and turn back to being a slave to sin, because a person is either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin, how are you going to get rid of Christ inside of you when He said He will never leave you?
What is your understanding of the phrase "sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption?"
And to the moderators of this site, thank you so much for adding more character space. God Bless!