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Abraham is considered to be the progenitor of MANY NATIONS mentioned in the Bible, the Israelites, Ishmaelites ( Genesis 25:12-18) Edomites ( Genesis 36:1-43]) Amalekites ( Genesis 36:12-16) Kenizzites ( Genesis 36:9-16) Midianites and Assyrians ( Genesis 25:1-5) and through his nephew Lot he was also related to the Moabites and Ammonites.
Believers IN CHRIST, by believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, all by grace through faith, WE get the PROMISE by FAITH just like Abraham!
Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham is not our father by progeny, but is our father by his example of FAITH!
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
Rachel named him Ben-Oni ("son of my trouble"), but Jacob renamed him Benjamin ("son of my right hand").
Jacob and Rachel's son Benjamin is a picture in type of Jesus Christ.
Remember Rachel had been barren but finally conceives a son, Joseph, another picture in type of Jesus Christ because he is rejected by his brothers.
Rachel conceives the 2nd Time With Benjamin, and has "trouble" because she dies in childbirth.
Jacob renames Ben-Oni, Son Of Trouble, TO Ben-Jamin, Son Of My Strength, which depicts Jesus' 2nd Coming.
God was angry at Esau for doing that.
Genesis 27 to 28. Read slow; there is a covenant mentioned.
See Eph 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
Again in 1 Cor 12:13 - "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
The use of the word dispensation is not the same as Dispensationalism. There has been a lot of debate over what Dispensationalists believe with respect to Israel, the Church and a Promise that remains to Israel. While the outline of historical "dispensations" is helpful to put Biblical History in perspective, assertions that some things in the NT are for Jews and others for Followers of Christ, are misguided. Hebrews, for example, was written for Christians with a Jewish background. It was not written for Jews or Synagogues. Neither was the Sermon on the Mount for Jews. Its universal principles apply to all. Contrary to the belief of some, Christ was not giving Jews instructions for the Millenium.
Gal 2:15-16 - "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Although In Rom 11, Paul makes it clear God still has a commitment to the Jews.
Gen 17:5 - Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of MANY many nations have I made thee.
If the "Jews" are all of Abraham, where are all these MANY "jewish nations"...?
There is only one and it was created by the antichrist United Nations and one is not many.
Either God lied (impossible) or the Jews are not all of Israel.
Where are the MANY JEWISH NATIONS of Abraham?
Judah and Israel were not the same people. God divorced Israel and not Judah. One tribe is not many
Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
The Lord DIVORCED ISRAEL
Israel and judah had wars and different kings as well as different capitols. Jerusalem capitol of Judah.
Samaria capitol of Israel.
2 Kings 8:16 ...Joram the son of Ahab KING of ISRAEL, Jehoshaphat being then KING of JUDAH, ...
1 Kings 21:1 ....had a vineyard, which was in Jezreel, hard by the PALACE of Ahab KING of SAMARIA.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
this verse says a new covenant with both Israel AND Judah. So how can they be the same?
Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The entire Word of God was written by Jews and was written to the Jews, with exception of The Apostle Paul, The Apostle of The GENTILES.
That is YOU!
The Revelation is a book of PROPHECY ... to The 7 Churches of Asia that existed during Paul's day.
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this PROPHECY, and keep those things written therein: for the time is at hand.
You see, The Tribulation was right around the corner for those Jews living during Paul's day, and the books Hebrews through The Revelation are written to prepare the Jews for the SOON Tribulation.
BUT, what happened? How come it DID NOT happen right away?
Answer: Paul and The Body Of Christ
These 7 churches of Asia were JEWISH . . . 7 Candlesticks, Angels, Works, Synagogue, Doctrine of Balaam, Hidden Manna, White Stone, Jezebel, White Linen, Priests, Key of David, New Jerusalem, The Lamb, Lion from The Tribe Of Judah, and on and on.
None of The Revelation has anything to do with YOU!
Thank goodness!
Hebrews - The Last Days, Prophets, Throne, Anointed With Oil, Heirs Of Salvation, Signs and Wonders, To Call Them Brethren, Seed Of Abraham, Bondage, Make reconciliation for the sins of the people, Moses, House, Provocation, and on and on . . . ALL JEWISH.
James . . . To the Twelve Tribes Scattered ... JEWISH!
Peter . . . To the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia . . . ALL JEWISH!
123 John . . . Unto The ELECT Lady ISRAEL . . . JEWISH!
Jude . . . Feasts, Error Of Balaam, Egypt, Moses, Angels, Garment spotted, Last Time, Looking for the Mercy . . . JEWISH!
The Tribulation . . . The Time Of Jacobs TROUBLE!
WHEN did Jacob have TROUBLE?
The 1st 7 years Jacob worked for Leah... the 2nd 7 years Jacob worked for Rachel, whom he loved, that was TROUBLE! The Kingdom promised to Abraham and David will come and The Jews will inherit The Earth!
God is going to KEEP HIS PROMISE!
1. The Law
2. Christ
The only two reasons for the existence of the Jews, was so Christ could enter into a broken world, deemed wicked by the Law. There is a thread that ties all of the Bible together from front cover to back cover. From before God created anything, God started threading the needle of history with Christ. Christ is that thread that holds all things together. If you take a needle and thread, tie a knot at the end of it and shove it from Genesis 1, page by page, chapter by chapter, book by book, through to Revelation 22, you will see that the thread is Jesus. He was before all things and created all things. God the savior of mankind existed before Adam and Eve fell. God threaded the needle in eternity, before He created time/space. And God started sewing the fabric of history with Jesus from Genesis to Revelation.
When we see that the people of Israel, the Chosen People, were created with a specific Purpose, that Christ would come into the world through them, the rest of the story falls in perspective. Creation is about Christ. The Bible is the story of Christ from before the beginning of time 2 Tim 1:9, Heb 10:5, Matt 1, Rev 22.
The time of the Rapture is really inconsequential. What our focus should be is in that Christ is Coming Back. The Bible is the history of Christ. The Rapture is about His triumphant return to earth.
Sometimes well-intentioned people teach things that seem true, but are wrong. As stated before, the Bible never segregates the Tribulation as an event that will only affect Jews. The New Testament letters were written for the Church, not for the Jews. It is God's message to us who believe, 1 Cor 1. Paul and Peter were adamant about not returning to Judaism, 2 Peter 2:22.
Perhaps Hebrews 6:4, 6, 10:26 can shed some light on this. There remains no Sacrifice for anyone that thinks they can be saved by returning to Judaism. And if that is the case, why would God nullify Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the Cross, to punish the Jews for 7 years? Sacrifices, by Jews or anyone else are worthless. So why would God want to restore them as a means for Salvation in the Tribulation? The doctrine that the Tribulation is for the Jews, absent Christians, is a fabrication that doesn't meet the test of reality. God works within the framework of reality, not fiction.
If you can show where the Bible says the Tribulation is for the Jews, please do. But first, you must deal with Matthew 24:29, 2 Tim 2, which set the stage for every other mention of the 2nd Coming and the Rapture. We know from the mouth of Jesus that He is coming Immediately After the Great Tribulation. It remains to be shown that He is coming before that for a Rapture. But if there is a place in Scripture that says otherwise, please point to it. I can tell you now, you won't find it. Every mention of a Rapture scenario follows the description in Matt 24.
Furthermore, don't believe the lie that some of the books of the NT are for the Jews. They are not.
Paul tells us that there were 2 GOSPELS!
Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the UNCIRCUMCISION was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the CIRCUMCISION was unto Peter.
God is "dispensing" GRACE today. Israel's salvation in the past was based on works!
BIG DIFFERENCE!
God hid THE MYSTERY in time past BUT NOW has made known to US through Paul.
Read these VERSES very carefully . . .
Ephesians 3:1-9
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you GENTILES,
If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION of the GRACE OF GOD which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me THE MYSTERY; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST)
Which in other ages was NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of God, as it is NOW revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the GENTILES should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by THE GOSPEL:
Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the GRACE OF GOD given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is THIS GRACE given, that I should preach among the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make ALL MEN SEE what IS the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
Rapture IS A MYSTERY and saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IS A MYSTERY!
The Word of God is CLEAR on this!
You and I ARE GENTILES, and we had better listen to Paul and get our doctrine from him!
Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David had to DO WORKS (whatever God told them to do) THEN they FOUND GRACE in the eyes of The LORD!
That is NOT how we get SAVED!
Salvation is based on Christ and Christ's death never comes to an end. That Christ died and we can be saved by calling on Him will always be true. And the Holy Spirit is never taken away. There is no Gospel for the Jews as distinct from a Gospel for the Gentiles. 2 These 2 is clear that both Rapture and 2nd Coming are concurrent events for those that follow Christ. There is no distinction between Jew and non-Jew. Paul tells us there is no other Gospel, Gal 2:21.
Many churches teach there will be a period of Tribulation just for the Jews. Therefore, Christians must be taken out of the earth. To get there they read things into Scripture that just aren't there. Christ never even alluded to that. Neither did any of the Apostles. We are saved by Grace. If the Law and Sacrifices could save, Christ would not have been necessary. Christ died once and for all. There is no Dispensational 7th Week of Daniel outlined in the Bible. He is just telling us what is going to happen to all of us. Lk 19:10.
There is a misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation, the Tribulation Period, Judgement and Wrath. A study of Revelation will show the Day of the Lord and Wrath are specific to the last hour of the Tribulation. Many confuse it with the entire 7 year period. Revelation gives you a panorama of history, then starts shrinking it down to the last moment, which is when God pours out His Wrath. Rom 1:17.
You have to know what was going on during Paul's day. There were Jews during Paul's ministry that wanted to put people under The Law ( Acts 15:1), and Paul warned them not to believe in ANY OTHER Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4.
John The Baptist preached this gospel to ISRAEL ...
Matthew 3:1-2
In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Jesus Christ preached The Gospel of the Kingdom to ISRAEL.
Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
The Tribulation Gospel will be preached in the future to ISRAEL after The Body of Christ is taken out of here.
You see, WHAT Israel had to believe during Jesus' ministry is NOT The Gospel Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles in this Age of Grace.
Paul's Gospel is THE GOSPEL 1 Cor 15:1-4 we need to believe to be saved today!
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Seems to me there is only ONE GOSPEL and Paul writes that any that teaches contrary to this is cursed.
The Tribulation is a prophesied event for ISRAEL.
The Rapture is a MYSTERY for The Body Of Christ!
Jesus Christ reveals to Paul a NEW program.
Paul has a NEW Gospel in this Age of GRACE 1 Cor 15:1-4, believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose again, and we are SAVED all by grace through faith in that alone!
The Body of Christ has to be out of the way so that God can resume His prophetic program with Israel called The Tribulation.
Paul tells us The Body of Christ is saved from the wrath to come.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
The Tribulation Gospel is NOT going to be good!
Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, FEAR God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his JUDGMENT is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
NO MORE GRACE in The Tribulation!
The Body of Christ SAVED today by The Gospel Of GRACE will be Raptured and then God deals with ISRAEL with The Tribulation with the everlasting Gospel.
The Rapture for The Body Of Christ and The Tribulation for ISRAEL; TWO Completely Different Programs for TWO Completely Different groups, with TWO Completely Different GOSPELS!
JESUS said watch and be ready; keep your lamps filled with oil of the Holy Spirit. Period.
If you take everything that is said about the Rapture and the 2nd Coming and separate them, which the Bible does not do, you are left with the same thing. Everything that is said about the Rapture falls in line with what is said about the Coming. If we say Paul distinguishes between these two events, we would contradict what he says.
1. The Bible never says the Rapture is before the Tribulation.
2. The Bible says that Christ said the Rapture is Immediately After the Tribulation.
3. The same events are attached to both (Trumpets, Clouds, Gathering, In the Air, Angels, Thief in the Night).
Where does the Bible contradict the words of Christ in Matthew 24:29?
Where does the Bible specifically say the Rapture is before the Tribulation?
But what is the real significance of what Christ and Paul said? Why is it important for Christians to know the truth about when the Rapture will take place?
I think I know the arguments, but if you list them, we can all discuss them one by one.
John 16:33 was Jesus talking TO ISRAEL. Not us. Israel was going to be scattered very soon at the stoning of Stephen.
Israel is the Bride. We are the Body Of Christ. Big Difference. Satan is the "god" of this world and he is having his way with man and religion!
Paul is the only one in The Word Of God, Romans through Philemon, that tells you what your doctrine is today for this Age of Grace and salvation by grace by believeing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
One day, The Body of Christ will be taken, and then God is going to resume His prophetic program with Israel, and The Tribulation will culminate with the 2nd Coming Of Jesus Christ so ISRAEL will believe in THEIR Messiah, then The Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on this earth; The Kingdom God promised to Abraham, then into eternity.
Read Paul's letters to find out that all our sins are forgiven, past present and future just by believing The Gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all by grace through faith, no works, no law, just what Jesus Christ did for US!
Two different programs. Israel and The Body of Christ. Paul tells us in 2 Tim 2:15 . . . Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth; that WAY you know what is for ISRAEL and what is for The Body Of Christ.
Remember Jesus came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel ( Matthew 10:6) Jesus was a minister of the circumcision ( Romans 15:8) Jesus came in the flesh for Israel ( Romans 9:5).
One day, God is going to gather ALL, BOTH Israel and The Body Of Christ, in ONE!
Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are in earth; even in him.
I was reading & noted Genesis 8:20-22 and 9:8-17
In verse 21-22: And the Lord Smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said IN HIS HEART, I will not again curse the GROUND anymore for mans sake, for the imaginations of mans heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite anymore every thing living, as I have done.
While the earth remaineth seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat; and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease. ( Jeremiah 33:25)
The token of the covenant of is the rainbow.
There was no anger. Sorrow in his heart.
What hurts us, hurts him.
How many times have we wept; why is this happening to me? Why didn't You stop it?
How so the earth groans for it's redemption. As should we all...
And God's Wrath has been seen in the past, in The Flood, at Sodom & Gomorrah, in God's dealings with idolatrous Israel. We have not seen His Full Wrath yet post Calvary, even though some claim that our natural devastating phenomena, including viruses, or the Holocaust are examples. The next time God moves in this way, will be at the time of the End of this age, & will be with Fire & not Flood ( 2 Pet 3:5-7).
So, can we presume that God will then have to judge His people, the Church, Christ's Bride, a second time for their sinful nature & ways? Or, will He take out (rapture) His Church (having already been judged & redeemed), so that His Wrath will be seen & felt by all unbelievers to the fulfilment of prophecy?
The Apostle Paul was buffeted by Satan because he preached The Gospel Of The Grace of God, believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again, all by grace through faith in that alone!
Satan hates the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. Religion hates the preaching of the finished work of the cross for salvation. That is why Paul was beaten, stoned, and sorely mistreated because of The Gospel ( 1 Cor 15:1-4)
Today no prophecy! The Body Of Christ will be taken out of here before God resumes His prophetic program with ISRAEL during The Tribulation!
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (the word after has one meaning = not before)
A: Matthew 21:43 - Therefore say I (Jesus speaking to the Jews) unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. So which language was the New Testament written in? GREEK.
Why? King James Bible book of John 5:16 - And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. It was not the Romans who troubled Jesus.
Jesus had it with their man made rules in Matthew 23:15 - Jesus speaks: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (Jews) , hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 2X the child of Hell does not sound very nice.
no one can prove to me from the Bible alone that the family of Jesus called him Yeshua.
Besides Rabbis called Jesus YESHU which is a curse meaning may his name be blotted out.
Luke Chapter 1
:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
(Angel Gabriel gave JESUS his name from the Lord)
so what scriptural authority does anyone have to call him YESHUa?
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
I believe the Bible is right Jesus is not in error.
In Matthew chapter 4, Jesus withstood the devil's temptations by using scripture. The better we know the Word of God, the greater our ability to stand against the assaults of the tempter.
In John chapter 15 we learn that unless we abide in Jesus Christ, we can do nothing. We wither as a dried branch off the vine.
In Ephesians 6, we are instructed in the proper use of the armour of God and told that our warfare is in the spiritual realm, not against flesh and blood.
1 Peter 5:8-11 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 John chapter 2 gives us some great instruction on the battles we face with our own nature and the ways of this world.
1 John 5:4-5"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
DaLanie, okay, I do understand the restrictions for visiting at present, though no doubt, these will ease in the weeks ahead. The matter of prayer & specifically the answers we expect from God, has resulted in some folk overjoyed in answers received & others disappointed & wondering whether God even heard them.
Prayer is essentially a child of God's conversation with his/her Father. It can comprise of many things, but mainly in praise & worship and in petition. Your urgent & longing prayer to the Father is for His intervention in your loved one's predicament & for the forces that acted against him/her be dealt with. All we can do in our petitioning to God is to first love Him & obey Him in everything He asks of us. Secondly, we have to come to Him in simple faith ( James 5:15, 16: speaks of prayer of faith & effectual, fervent prayer). Thirdly, we must pray according to His Will (1 John 5:14, 15: is about asking about matters that are in His Will, & if so, He will hear us (not that He doesn't receive our prayers, but that He hears with the intention of responding)). Fourthly, that His answers to our prayers are not always the way we would like it to be, i.e. God has His reasons that encompass a larger view of the matter than we have, or His timing is different, His purposes are unknown to us, etc.
A. Was Christ in God's initial Plan of creation? Titus 1:2, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:17f, Eph 1:4, 3:10-11, Isa 44-48
B. Did God create man so Christ could come to save him from sin's penalty? Heb 10:5, Gal 3:16, Rom 11:36
C. Why create man? Did God of necessity have to create man? Heb 2, Gal 3:16
D. Does God support evil to accomplish His Plan? Rom 9:22-24
E. And what about Satan? Did God put him in the Garden to tempt man? Genesis 2, Job 1:12, Matt 4:1, Lk 4:2
To A: I don't think anyone can argue that Christ was not in the initial Plan of creation, given Jesus created all things. Titus 1:2 and 2 Tim 1:9 are unequivocal. The Plan of Redemption was drawn up before anything was created. We can legitimately conclude from that, that the coming of Christ in a human body ( Heb 10:5), was intentional. Redemption was not offered in reaction to the Fall. Jesus prayed to the Father to, "glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed". 1 John 5:20, John 1:18.
If all things were created for the sake of Jesus ( Col 1:16), doesn't it seem obvious that Jesus was part of the Plan of Creation? There is no indication in Scripture that Jesus was an afterthought? In these verses, we are told that Christ's incarnation was in the original blueprints, before mankind was created. Acts 2:23 Eph 1:4.
What did Jesus mean when He stated in John 8:58, "Before Abraham existed, I Am"? Keep in mind that it is Jesus speaking. Was He simply saying He is God? Or was He saying He as Savior existed before creation? That is, Christ existed. Not Jehovah existed. Christ existed and He is God. John 1 attests to that. In John 17:24 Jesus says God loved Him before creation. Loved who? God loved God? No. God loved Jesus, the Savior.
Rev 13:8, 17:8 also reveal that prior to the Fall, the names of the saved were written in the Book of Life. What's up with that? Jesus came before the Fall.