Discuss John 5 Page 8

JESUS said to the Jews: John 5:43-47KJV:

43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if ANOTHER(AN IMPOSTER - Who's is him?) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Paul apostle prophesied about that IMPOSTOR, saying - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 9 :

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (See Revelation 13:11-14)

John 1:11KJV - JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

Philippians 2:6 - 6 Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD:

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection

Amen

Hi Brother S Spencer,

Thank you for the reply. That's interesting how two people can read the same verse and come up with different meanings.

So, I'm trying to find verses that say we're immediately saved the moment we decide to follow Jesus (before we're even judged).

Based on what I'm looking for you wrote the following:

" John 5:24. actually says exactly that along with a accumulation of scripture when discerning them properly."

But I read John 5:24 and it doesn't say anything about the timing of being saved. It does not say immediately or anything about "when" this happens and its not even implied as some assume. But if you keep reading at John 5:28-29 it adds a condition by saying after Jesus speaks and dead are raised that "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Some readers imply a sense of timing when reading something even though unstated. I do not believe the Bible implies timing if it is not specifically stated. I will share evidence why:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17 KJV

Adam and Eve ate the fruit and did not die immediately, but later. Their death in the form of mortality likely started when they ate this, but they did not physically die until many years later. Some claim they had a spiritual death, but that is not stated.

Another example is: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27 KJV

Some assume this means God already created females, but then in chapter 2 it says how Adam fell asleep and Eve was created. This is an example of how assuming timing when it is not stated is not correct. What this really is is a brief summary overview then chapter 2 goes into more detail about how it happened.

Likewise, John 5:24 doesn't say we're saved immediately.

Hi Adam,

Based on all of the scripture I have read, we do not receive "our salvation" or "our damnation" until Judgement Day.

John 5:28-29

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice," "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

2 Corinthians 5:10

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

GB

Hi Adam.

John 5:24. actually says exactly that along with a accumulation of scripture when discerning them properly.

Here's John 5:24. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE".

Also see John 11:25-26.

There's physical death and there is spiritual death.

Everyone will die the physical death, ( Once.) Hebrews 9:27. Jesus took care of the Spitual death on the cross.

Those who haven't trusted Christ is ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD! There is no sequence to this. You see it in Jude 1:12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots;

Revelation 20:13-14. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

This concept is spreaded broadly throughout scripture when interpreted right.

Romans 6:3-11.

Ephesians 2:1-9. And you HATH HE QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins: He gave life!

This is there present condition.

He didn't say "You whom he WILL quicken!"

If we don't have eternal life now, we don't have nothing to apply our faith to.

God bless.

Yes Adam, these are a few important verses that I believe prove that a repentant sinner, seeking forgiveness & then being born again by God's Spirit, can be assured of salvation now & can never be lost. That the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer & perseveres with him/her to keep them saved & to warn & bring back those who fail in faith. Those who don't have assurance of salvation, probably are not familiar with the Scriptures, or have been taught that only perseverance & abiding by God's Commandments can they be saved, at least have any chance of getting approval at that final judgement day, or never been truly saved in the first place. Whereas, the one born again of God's Spirit will be given power to persevere & keep ALL of God's Commandments, & the avenue of repentance is there so that restitution & joy in a faithful God will be restored.

Ephesians 1:4,5 (God's choosing & predestining; His elect)

Ephesians 1:13,14 (Gift of the Holy Spirit; His Sealing & Guarantee till final redemption/reception of His child)

1 John 5:13 (we know that Eternal Life is our possession, not hoped for)

Romans 8:9,15,29,30,38,39 (nothing will separate us from God's Love - not from outside, nor from within, for we are His & will be led by His Spirit continually)

The Bible (part 2)

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Revelation 22:18,19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

These are just a sampling of the many verses that speak about the scriptures, the Bible, the Word of God. They should be examined both in their immediate context and the context of the entire Bible if we are to come to Truth regarding the true nature of the Bible.

David0921....Jesus is plainly telling us to search the scriptures in them you think you have eternal life but it is only them that testify of me....Which is the living word the H.G. that testifies of me.....David there is no eternal life in the scriptures, if there could have been eternal life in the scriptures then Jesus shed his blood in vain and the cross was just foolishness..... 2 Cor. 3:6 he has made us able ministers of the New Covenant not of the written word the letter a killer but of the spirit....Eternal life in only by his blood at. Calvary.....Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.....We do not behold the scriptures the written words....WE only behold the lamb of God the living word that taketh away the sins of the world....And that book of life that he wrote with his own blood,....meaning living words....Living Spirits....We are not gonna be married to paper and ink the bible but only to Christ the living word.

.....The DEVIL reads the bible but that does not change his demonic Spirit....All of ISRAEL was sola scriptura...Bible only but Jesus tells them they were of their father the devil.....Its only by the blood of the lamb that we can be bornagain of his incorruptible seed....that liveth and abideth for ever....The living word which is the H.G. THE GIFT OF God....I love the kjv with all my heart....But it is only the living word the H.G. that is the gift of God...No eternal life in the scriptures per se.

Jesus said are there not 12 hrs in a day and 12 hrs in a night but if a man walks in the night he is gonna stumble.....David you are walking in the night when you think there is Eternal life in the scriptures the written words as John 5:39 tells us....Jesus tells us there is no eternal life in the scriptures the written words.....Eternal life in only by the New Covenant which is his blood he shed at Calvary....That resulted in the book in the right hand of the father THAT BOOK OF LIFE that Jesus wrote with his own.. blood

Ronald

I agree The word confirm does not mean make, it shows us the covenant already existed.

However that fits the antichrist and his mission. Anti here means "instead of" and it can also mean against.

The Jews is still looking for their Messiah till this day and that's the primary role of the Antichrist.

Jesus hints at this in John 5:43.

So let's parallel the notion with other scriptures concerning him.

2 Thessalonians 2:4

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:8-12.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

These verses along with Daniel 9 emphasizes deception by the Antichrist.

Goodnight brother.

lemme ramble a bit about the just and the unjust....Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit..... Romans 9:8.... Flesh and blood are not the Children of God.....Its only the Children of Promise that are counted for that GOOD SEED....Who are the Children of Promise?... They are the gift of God the H.G.....Which is born of the spirit in US via his good seed...The LIVING WORD NOT THE WRITTEN WORD....As faith comes by hearing his good seed the living word that initiates a spiritual pregnancy.....B/C I have spoken these living words sorrows have filled your hearts a spiritual pregnancy ....A woman when she is in travail has sorrows but after the CHILD ( The H.G.) is COME HER SORROWS are turned into Joy... John 16:20.....The H.G. is he that is born of the spirit...The gift of God....An Israel of God.. Gal. 16:6...She brought forth aman child that is gona rule all nations Rev. 12 :5 kjv.....Which is the H.G. as no man can call Jesus the Christ without the H.G. that living word....Which is that Child of Promise that is gona be born in you....Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth ME ME

Its only the living word the H.G. that testifies of Jesus....When he the spirit of truth is come he will testify of me which is the H.G.... John 15:22....Thats y we must be born again of an incorruptible seed that liveth and abideth for ever as Peter said....The living word which is spirit and life.....

..... John 5:39 .Thats y Jesus is saying Search the scriptures the written words in them you think you have eternal life but it is only them that testifies of me....Which is the H.G. THE LIVING WORD, that spirit of truth that testifies of me....Which is that New Covenant that he gave us by his blood at Calvary....The book in the right hand of the father that Jesus wrote with his own blood.....Whosoever was not found written in this book of life was cast into the lake of fire...As our God is a consuming fire..H.G. fire..

Hi David0921,

I know we have different understandings of this and I am probably in the minority but that is ok. To me, it hinges on whether the soul is mortal or immortal and I have not found any scripture that supports the soul is immortal when comparing all scriptures about the soul, (I hope that makes sense).

Like 1 Thess. 4:13-17 My understanding is Paul is trying to ensure the people their loved ones who believed in Jesus who had died (asleep) would not be left out of the resurrection when Jesus returns. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." If we believe Jesus died and rose we who die before He returns will also rise (resurrect, awake) from our sleep (death).

"God will bring with him" seems to fit the picture in Jude 1:14-15, but does it agree with being resurrected? My understanding is 1 Thess. 4:17 The earth is round and those resurrected when Jesus returns will meet Him in the air and He brings those with Him down with Him, not going back up.

2 Cor. 5:6-8 We all look forward to being with Jesus but when will we be absent from this body? What is the resurrection of the dead? Resurrection is an awakening, our soul is who we are the essence of our being that is what God resurrects to either eternal life or death, 1 Cor. 15:35-55.

My understanding is our soul is not immortal our soul, that is who we are, and as our body, it is mortal. We will die/sleep until we are resurrected into our immortal body and that is when we will be free and absent from this fleshly body we have now and will be with the Lord.

My understanding is all who have lived will be resurrected John 5:28-29. We will be on the earth when it is made new not in heaven.

If we do not agree on this subject it is ok as long as we treat each other with love and inspire each other to study.

God bless,

RLW

Hi David0921,

Good discussion: my understanding of scripture is as yours, man will not be in the lake of fire for eternity, but also somewhat different. In Daniel 12:2 John 5:24-29 Revelation 20:11-15 we see all good, bad, and ugly will be resurrected so everyone will have a conscious existence to answer and be accountable on judgment day, the last day, and my understanding is that is Revelation 20:11-15.

Greek philosophy of the immortal soul has influenced the understanding of death so, if the soul is immortal and cannot die the burning in hell/lake of fire will be forever. Scripture says to me we are mortal, Romans 8:11 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 2 Corinthians 5:4. We see in Genesis 2:7 that man became a living soul, not a soul was placed in man, so when that breath of life/spirit is gone the body/soul is dead. The breath of life, Ecclesiastes 12:1-8 there will we be until the resurrection.

I could say more but in short, just for consideration, if there is eternal punishment, on resurrection day the unsaved will be given what scripture says only the saved will receive, an immortal body and eternal life? "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" So, the penalty for sin will be eternally over and done with, no more sin, and no more death for eternity, forever and ever.

God bless,

RLW

Heaven Part 2

In my last post; I talked about Peter. He was revealed who Christ was which could only have come from the Father ( Matt. 16:17).

The HOLINESS of God is talked about frequently; perhaps easiest remembered in Revelation 4:8-11 (also found in Isaiah 6:3).

When the Bible describes judgment; and hell viewed on earth such as in Isaiah 66 there is no appreciation of the wicked for His Holiness or any other attributes. Our life as believers is hidden in Christ ( Colossians 3:3) and the verse also talks about how we must be "crucified with Christ". Those who believe have truly "passed from death to life" ( John 5:24 with further insights in 1 John as well). So that is the difference; we have either the eternal state of our spiritual condition to be in our fallen sin which is totally blind to His glory and only focused on self; or we are new creations which are now able to glorify God in heaven (and we start now by being seated in heavenly places ( Eph. 2:6). Therefore we begin now; to rule and reign with Him in a sense-it is a done deal as Romans 8:30; and Ephesians 1:13 states.

Isaiah 53:11 states that He will see the travail of His soul and be satisfied; quoting a verse from an entire CHAPTER on Christ which is the famous chapter Jews like to ignore because of clear Messianic descriptions matching that of Christ. His satisfaction therefore will be in ruling and reigning WITH us; with the sons of glory (sort of combining Hebrews 2:10 with the concept of Romans 8:17.) He did it to please the Father first and foremost; but also of course has been given all authority on heaven and earth. ( Matt. 28:18). It is strange to conceive ourselves in a similar way; but nonetheless being part of the firstfruits we also suffer for a time then are glorified and rewarded ( 1 Peter 5:10).

Obviously; as we look to the concept of varying amounts of rewards for either the wicked (punishment) we have the same idea in regard to the saved. ( 1 Cor. 3:15). more in part3

There is one who Jesus said spoke truth. we have examples: John 5:31-38; 2 Peter 1:21

Jesus wanted his 12 apostles including Apostle Paul to speak about him. This is why we have

these beautiful letters from the scriptures. These letters should not be distorted to fit ones own Selfish purpose

or view. what is written or said in the scriptures benefits us all if we want it. 2 Timothy 3:16,17

Hey Jimbob gbu my man....Yes i will gladly show you a scripture that proves that Jesus is not the written word ( the scriptures)... John 5:39....Jesus says search the SCRIPTURES ( the written words ) in them you think that you have Eternal life...But it is only them that testifies of me....Which are the living words....When he the spirit of truth is come he will testify of me John 16:13 John... 15:26...which is the H.G. THE LIVING WORD....That book in the right and of the father....THE BOOK OF LIFE....LIVING WORDS..The CHILDREN OF PROMISE..Jimbob if Eternal life were in the written words the bible....Then Jesus shed his blood in vain and the cross was just foolishness....God has something much greater for his ppl then just a bible...A KINGDOM....Peter said where shall we go lord thou has the words of eternal life....which is that book in the right hand of the father that Jesus wrote with is own blood...But without Calvary the Cross there wd NOT have been a book of life of living words, living seeds to multiply Christ in humanity the seeds of the sower are the result of the book of life....Written words the bible cd not accomplish what Jesus did at Calvary....Hope you see this Jim...My words are spirit and life Jesus....That good seed is the living words of God...The Wheat is a baby Christ a living being....Simply b/c the sower of that good seed is Christ the bridegroom....Thats y he has to know us....Child is th H.G..

Jesus plainly tells us no man can come unto me unless my father that has sent me draw him...which is the living word the H.G....The contents of that book of life in the right hand of the father...The book of life....The woman in Rev. 12:5 does not give birth till the book of life is opened....Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child ( the H.G.) you will in NO WISE enter there in....Her Child is the H.G. the spirit of truth that is gonna reprove this whole world of Sin.Righteousness and Judgement a living being that has to be born in us....

Hiya David Gbu....But John 1:1 is the living word not the written word....David it was the living word Christ Jesus that made all things not a bible the written word.... 2 Cor. 3:6 He has made us able ministers of the New Covenant the spirit not the letter as the letter is a killer but its the spirit that gives life....Thats y Churchanity is dead they don't know the difference between the written word and the living word....The written word is not God its just a love letter from God but its the living word that is Christ the bridegroom the 1 and only living Word....We do not wana be married to paper and ink but to Spirit and life as my words are spirit and life....Wake up David.....Ya need to understand that God is much more then paper and ink....Yes we all love the KJV Bible but it answers to the lesser light....Its only Christ Jesus that is the light of the world....Not the bible...Thats y Jesus was saying are there not 12 hrs in a day and 12 hrs in a night...but if a man walks in the night he is gona stumble....You are walking in the night when ya think that the bible is the light of the world....Thats y Jesus had to shed his blood at Calvary that he might bring in a New Covenant not according to the old covenant the written word...The letter a killer....Simply b/c the letter has no blood content....Thus cannot remove sin...Only the lamb of God had the blood to initiate this new covenant at Calvary....The LIVING WORD...When he had taken the cup he said this is the New Covenant in my blood drink ye all of it...The N.C. IS THE LIVING WORD.

David there are zillions of bibles in this world but this world is in deep darkness....Thats y God wanted a New Covenant by the blood of Jesus the living WORD... John 5:39 Search the scriptures ( written words ) in them you think you have eternal life but it is them that testify of me...Which is the H.G. the living word a living being the Gift of God....The bible the written word is not the gift of God. only Christ is that GIFT..

Hey S Spencer,

Well done, other verses have been not found in the original text as in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I will not list the verses, and the one you covered in 1 John 5:7 used to support the Trinity. That doctrine has been discussed before and considered undiscussable by most and is taught that salvation is dependent on belief in it.

We can cut and divide verses or words like Jews and Gentiles, their meaning when they were written, and the meaning they have today. Jew was a slang word started in Babylon for people of the tribe of Judah, and Gentile meant nation or nations, not a person. Many other meanings of words from Hebrew, Greek, Greek mythology, and Latin translated into English.

As you ended with, the meaning and our understanding of scripture do not come from us, affected by our feelings, desires, and what we have been taught whether it was true or false. If we do not open our hearts and ears to hear and receive understanding given by God and the authority given to Jesus through the Holy Spirit our understanding may not be the Truth.

Thanks for your post.

God bless,

RLW

Thank you brother S. Spencer for sharing that article. I have earlier read some arguments for & against the inclusion of this verse in the Bible, but certainly not as extensive as what you've presented here. As you probably know, I do use this 1 John 5:7 portion as a reference in support of the triunity of God as I believe there's no reason not to as it certainly doesn't negate any other portion of Scripture that speaks of the Nature of Jesus & the Holy Spirit within the Godhead. As well, other Bible translations have accepted this verse into their Bibles (e.g. NKJV, Douay-Rheims, LSV, Webster's, & YLT: all esteemed works). Even though this extensive research work has been done to show us how & when this verse was included in the KJV & others, for any of us to further argue the matter would be unfruitful, for lack of expertise. If someone believes that this verse is not to be read as part of the Bible, then they have some good reason for doing so. Likewise, I think it is equally a good reason to keep it & read it for no harm can come of it but good use made of it for both personal & ministry use & appreciation. Blessings.

There's no perfect translation.

Part 7.

These words are also lacking in all of the ancient translations of the New Testament. The only exception to this is Latin. However, the oldest Latin manuscripts do not contain this passage. In the manuscripts which do have them we find that the wording is different.

Add to this, there is no evidence of this verse in the writings of early Christians who commented on this book of Scripture. Neither do we find it cited in any of the Trinitarian debates of the fourth century. If it existed at this time it is inconceivable as to why it was not cited in the debates. Indeed, it would seem to settle the issue.

Thus, this particular verse should not be used as support for the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. However, we must emphasize that the doctrine of the Trinity does not stand or fall on this verse alone. Indeed, there is sufficient evidence in Scripture for the Trinity doctrine without appealing to 1 John 5:7. Therefore, it is best to ignore this verse in discussions about this subject.

Article by Don Stewart.

The word of God is inspired by God.

There's human error in translating from one language to another but those errors doesn't thwart God's plan or message to the world.

God's message to us doesn't hinge on one verse! It's integrated!

Nor does it depends on the perfection of Man.

God can use a prophet like Balaam and a talking Donkey to bring his word.

Again the King James is the bible I use and believe it is very accurate but not perfect.

What's important is to get and know the truth out of what is accurate.

God bless.

There's no perfect translation.

Part 5.

It is missing from the writings of Christians such as Irenaeus (died about A.D. 200), Clement (died about A.D. 210), Tertullian (who died around A.D. 220) and Athanasius (who died in A.D. 373). If this verse were found in the text of First John it would have been the primary verse used in these debates but it was never cited!

OBSERVATIONS AND CONCLUSIONS.

After looking at the facts surrounding the inclusion of these disputed words in First John we can make the following observations:

1. THIS VERSE DOES NOT BELONG IN SCRIPTURE.

Although this verse clearly does teach the doctrine of the Trinity, as we have seen, there is serious question as to whether it belongs in Holy Scripture. Indeed, the evidence for its inclusion in the New Testament is almost nil. In fact, almost every modern translation of Scripture, with good reason, rejects its authority. We should make the same conclusion.

2. REJECTION OF THIS PASSAGE IS NOT A REJECTION OF THE TRINITY

Contrary to what some have written and said, the rejection of this verse has nothing to do with any conspiracy to keep the Deity of Christ, or the Trinity, out of the Bible. The reason for its rejection is the lack of evidence for its inclusion; it is not some sinister plot to remove parts of God's Word. Indeed, an objective look at the evidence would lead one to conclude that these words were not part of the original text of First John.

3. IT SHOULD NOT BE USED TO ARGUE FOR THE TRINITY

Consequently, this verse should not be used in discussion about the Trinity. As we have repeatedly emphasized, there is sufficient evidence in the Scripture to support the doctrine of the Trinity without appealing to these words in 1 John 5:7. The Trinity doctrine does not depend upon this verse. It never has. This must be understood.

See Part 6.

There's no perfect translation.

Part 3.

Since these disputed words appeared in the later editions of Erasmus' Greek New Testament, as well as other printed Greek texts immediately after his time, including Beza's, they were used as the basis for the English translation in First John. Thus, we find these words in 1 John 5:7 which describe the various members of the Trinity as well as testifying that they are "one." In brief, this explains how the words became part of the English Bible.

However, this is not the end of the story. When an authorized revision was made of the King James Version in 1880 these words in First John were omitted. Almost all English translations since that time do not have these words as part of the text. The reasons can be stated as follows:

Why This Passage Is Rejected?

There are a number of reasons as to why this passage is rejected as being part of Holy Scripture. We can simply state them as follows:

1. THE PASSAGE IS FOUND IN ONLY A FEW LATE GREEK MANUSCRIPTS

Since the New Testament was originally written in Greek, the Greek manuscripts are our primary means of reconstructing the original text. The main reason for doubting these words were originally composed by John is the fact that they are only found in a few Greek manuscripts. Furthermore, as we examine these few manuscripts which do contain this passage we find that there are serious questions as to its authenticity.

Indeed, of the over three hundred Greek manuscripts which contain First John we find that only nine of them have this verse listed. Yet, of the nine, four of them have the verse in the margin while only five have it in the actual text.

There is more. These five manuscripts which do have this verse in the text are very late. None of the early manuscripts of First John contain it. Indeed, the first Greek manuscript that contains this verse in the actual text of First John comes from the fourteen century.

See part 4.

There's no perfect translation

Part 2.

Earlier printed versions of the New Testament were in Latin. Thus, the copying to the text of the New Testament covered some fifteen centuries.

How the Verses Became Part of the Printed Greek Text and King James Bible.

At the beginning of the sixteenth century, a man named Erasmus was the first to publish a printed Greek text of the New Testament. In putting together the text for this edition, Erasmus consulted all of the Greek manuscripts which he could find. In the Greek manuscripts of First John which Erasmus examined, these words about the Trinity were not found. Consequently, his first printed edition of his Greek New Testament, issued in 1516, did not contain these words. This omission caused a real problem among the people of that day since these words were found in the Latin text with which they were familiar. Erasmus defended himself by saying that these words were absent from the Greek texts which he had consulted and thus should not be placed into the text of the New Testament.

When Erasmus issued a second printed edition of his Greek New Testament it too was without these words in First John 5:7. However, before his third edition of the Greek New Testament was issued in 1521 a Greek manuscript was found which did contain this disputed passage. The problem was that this particular manuscript was actually composed around 1520! Yet, to quell the uproar caused by the omission of these words, Erasmus placed them in the third edition of his Greek New Testament. This reading remained in all future editions of Erasmus' printed text.

This printed Greek text of Erasmus was basically the same text used by the translators of the King James Bible in 1611. It appears that the Greek text which the translators of the King James Version most relied upon was the 5th edition of the printed text of Theodore Beza. This was issued in 1598. This text is similar, but not exactly the same as that of Erasmus.

See Part 3.

There's no perfect translation.

Part 1

There is a passage in the New Testament that seems to be an extraordinarily clear statement about the doctrine of the Trinity, 1 John 5:7. To many, the question as to the existence of the Trinity is settled by this verse.

What Does 1 John 5:7 Say?

First John 5:7 reads as follows in the King James Version:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The way this verse reads in the King James Version is a clear description of the Trinity. Indeed, it says that there are three that bear witness or bear record in heaven. These three are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. In addition, it says that these three are one. Why then, is there any controversy about this issue of the doctrine of the Trinity? These words could not be clearer!

The Problem Stated

Unfortunately, it is not that simple. Indeed, there has been a question about the authenticity of this passage. We will give a brief history of the problem as well as make some observations.

The New Testament Documents Were Originally Written in Greek

To begin with, we must note that the books of the New Testament were originally written in Greek. When they were first composed each of them were written upon perishable material. Immediately, copies were made of these original writings (called the autographs). These hand-written copies of the Greek autographs, called manuscripts, were then copied and recopied.

By the middle of the second century A.D., the books of the New Testament began to be translated and then copied into languages other than Greek. This hand-copying of the text in Greek, as well as in these other languages, continued until the invention of the printing press (about 1450). Furthermore, even some time after the printing press was invented the text was still copied by hand. In fact, it was not until the sixteenth century (1516) that a Greek New Testament was printed and published.

JRay, Suffering is not normal. when Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) created the earth,

his motives was for man and woman to take care of the earth. to enjoy his

creation, to take care of the animals. to enjoy the richness that the earth provided.

he created the ground to give in abundance, so that poverty was impossible. God

started the earth in the garden of Eden. Jehovah and the heavens was his the main

authority to mankind according to Genesis 1,2. there were no kings, rulers in the beginning.

But this happened to mankind: Genesis 3; Genesis 6; Genesis 19; Job 1,2; Luke 4:1-13

it just getting worse and worse. 2Timothy 3:1-7

It's a heavenly war, and a invisible war ( Revelation 12:7-13) we humans may not understand but God has revealed it to us in human terms. although the innocent are dying because of 1 John 5:19. WE KEEP THE HOPE AS GOD WANTS US TO: Romans 15:4-6; Revelation 21:3-5

We continue in the hope. Job 14:14

IF YOU READ ALL THESE SCRIPTURES YOU WILL SEE WHY MANKIND ARE SUFFERING.

I HOPE THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION.

Yes humans glorify each other. but this glory may be different from the way

God in heaven Sees. 1 Samuel 16:7

Jesus who was chosen by Jehovah- psalm 83:18

Who is the one Chosen by God to bring salvation- John 3:16,17

never glorified himself. Matthew 22:36,37 but with the glory

and honor and title God gave to him, he spoke. John 5:19

Matthew 23:8-12; LUKE 1:28-33; Isaiah 9:6,7

Psalm 16:10; John 5:28,29

Hey Chris,

Thanks again, I hope you don't mind, I understand you are done with this, and this is not to drag this on, a tit-for-tat and there is no need to reply. I usually keep posts short, but I feel I left things out and this will be it for this topic. Thanks again for the light on John 3:13.

The Priests and Pharisees kept on pushing Jesus for signs and proof and they were dead set on killing Him from early in Jesus' ministry. Jesus told them in John 8:28-29 that they would know He was the Messiah the Son of God and those things that happened when He died were proof for them. In John 5:25 "the hour is coming and now is,"

My understanding of the saints that came out of their graves was the same as Jairus's daughter, the widow of Nain's son. and Lazarus, when Jesus cried out caused all those things to happen and the saints came out of their graves and went into the city. Not in their glorified bodies but like Lazarus and the others.

In Matt. 27:54 They saw all these things happen they feared greatly saying "Truly this was the Son of God." The priests and Pharisees knew then they just killed the Messiah the Son of God. That is why they went to Pilate to guard the tomb, Matt. 27:62-66, as we see the disciples in shock still not knowing Jesus was going to be resurrected. The priests even with big money paid off the soldiers to tell a lie, Matt. 28:11-15.

Jesus is the Firstfruits and my understanding is He is the only one who has been resurrected with a glorified body until He returns.

God bless,

RLW

1.When Jesus says in John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. When he says believes him who sent me is he talking about the father that sent Jesus or God that sent Jesus.

2. In Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. What is the will of the father.

3. How do I understand all of the parables of Jesus Christ.

4. When I pray to repent am I praying to jesus for forgivness or to the father for forgivness and is my whole life in prayer to the father, to jesus or to the holy spirit?

5. How do I know if jesus knows me? "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

6. How do I know if my name is in the book of life?

7. "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood nabides in me, and I in him. 57 As othe living Father psent me, and qI live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. What does this mean?

8. The Church of Philadelphia in revelation which is the faithful church does it exist in America How do I find a pastor who meets all the bibical qualitfications to preach and how do I find a church who is faithul to christ who keeps christ word and have not denied his name.

Assurance of salvation: Corulers with Christ or coconspirators with the Devil.

It is helpful to go back to the Creation story to see God's original plan and design for man; and the results of the fall. In this segment I will look at the enemy of our souls ( 1 Peter 5:8). Lucifer's fall is covered in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. When we see that narrative play out we see where sin actually originated and the cause was mainly pride. That blossomed of course to violence and other things ( Ezekiel 28:16) which I would briefly propose was an angelic society which may have started in heaven and perhaps led to a judgment between Genesis 1:1 and 1;2 sometimes called the "gap theory". For our purposes we will summarize that there had to be some time for the angels to be drawn to follow Lucifer; as well as to some time after all the angels sang to God's glory at creation before he fell ( Job 38:7-9).

Lucifer was much like man; in the sense that he was created to worship and adore the Lord; made flawless and beautiful and in innocence there was nothing wrong about that. He was a Cherub ( Ezekiel 28:14); therefore at an elevated status much like Adam and Eve were given authority to rule and reign over the rest of Creation in a unique role and status.

The serpent was used by the enemy to deceive through appealing to man's hidden knowledge that could somehow elevate his status and bring them something more than God intended as the real thrust of the temptation. A lack of TRUST in God is where the real issue is; and that of the heart of man which Jeremiah 17:9 makes it clear is desperately wicked. Therefore; what God made had the potential to become corrupted and wicked; in the same token one who is saved is made to glorify God and destined to become as Paul stated a "celestial body" ( 1 Corinthians 15:40). There is a resurrection for all men; but one to eternal soul damnation for the wicked ( John 5:29). The wicked cannot enter the Kingdom of God ( Rev. 21:27).

Salvation by man, or salvation by God?

(Part 5):

Many scriptures were written to show believers that some among them, who professed to be Christians, were actually not saved. John wrote 1 John so those who were saved would know that they have eternal life (1 John 5:13). In this letter, he listed many evidences, so that salvation could be proven among genuine believers.

In 1 John 2:18-19, he writes, "Little children, it is the last hour; and according as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, in order that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

John is stating that those who are of the antichrist came out from the Christian fellowship. He teaches that the reason they chased after false doctrine and a false spirit, not staying with the fellowship of believers, is because they were never truly believers. They were never saved!

Sadly, the same is true today. There are many in our churches professing to be Christians, but who have no desire to hear or obey the truth of God's Word. Indeed, many so-called church leaders are not even teaching the Word of God from their pulpits, because they don't want to lose the numbers of people attending their services.

But the truth from God's Word still differentiates those who are truly saved from those who are just talking and acting like Christians, being devoid of the indwelling Spirit of Christ.

Salvation by man, or salvation by God?

(Part 4):

We also know from Scripture that no one can keep himself saved. John teaches, in 1 John 5:18 (as recorded in the oldest Greek manuscripts), "We know that everyone who has been born from God does not practice sin; but the one who has been born from God, God is keeping him and the evil one does not touch him."

John also states in John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them; and they follow me. And I give to them eternal life; and they will never perish forever and not anyone will seize them from out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to seize them from out of the hand of my Father."

Jude states in his doxology in verse 24, "But to the one being able to keep you without stumbling and to set you before His glory blameless in exultation."

Paul in his writings emphasized the keeping power of God's Spirit in Ephesians 1:13-14: "In whom also after having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, after having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance, for redemption of the possession, for the praise of His glory."

He states again in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Probably one of the most powerful Scriptures of God's keeping power is Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor any thing which has come, nor things coming, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The only way a person can be saved is by a spiritual birth from God; and the only way a person can keep his salvation is through the keeping power of God.