Discuss Judges 5

Hi S Spencer,

Hope your weekend went well brother, if I may give my understanding of Ephesians 4:8-10. As He Ascended up on High, Acts 1:9 He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men.

He led captivity captive; we see this also in Judges 5:12 which has a meaning to take captive your captors. When Jesus rose from the grave, he took power over what held Him captive. Death and the grave were what held Him, but because He was without sin, they could not hold Him Acts 2:24. Since the garden, Satan had the power of death and the grave, and when Jesus rose from the grave, He took that power which are the keys, Revelation 1:18.

Gifts unto men, we see this in Psalms 68:18. These gifts are also for the rebellious. These gifts are for all people in Acts 1:8 Jesus gave the commission to the Apostles just before He ascended to heaven. The gifts are in Ephesians 4:11-12 He gave apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; all for the ministry for the perfecting of the saints. For the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ for all people. It is the gift to mankind for their salvation, no better gift can be given to man.

He that descended, when Jesus died, He was dead for three days. Jesus descended into death, and the grave, and because He had no sin, they had no power over Him. The first Adam through his disobedience brought sin and death to mankind, Jesus the second Adam through His obedience brought life.

If there were those whom Jesus brought with Him when He resurrected, I would think it would be David but in Acts 2:29 and Acts 2:34 David is dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven. This earth is our home and our reward we do not go to heaven. We are heirs according to the promise, Galatians 3:26-29, Genesis 12:7, Genesis 13:5 it is forever, and Romans 4:13 the whole earth.

Rev. 5:10 Psalms 37:9,22,34 This earth is where we will be not heaven.

God bless you, brother,

RLW

Hello Doc

In Ephesians 1:8 it says:

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men"

The expression "he led captivity captive" is a Hebraism, it means that one "captures somebody or something" or "takes somebody/something as a captive". In this case it is Jesus who captured gifts for believers, a figurative expression that means that Jesus took the authority to give gifts to believers.

The above verse in Ephessians was a prophesy written in Psalms 68:18.

There are also two other mentions of that verse in the Bible:

1. Judges 5:12. Here it literally means that one captures people as captives, ie Barak.

2. Amos 1:6. Here it also literally means that one took God's people as captives, ie Edom.

Going back to Genesis 49, note Genesis 49:17, also Genesis 48, note Genesis 48:5,6

Deuteronomy 29:18-21, Judges 1:34, Judges 5:17, Judges 18, 1Kings 12:30, 2Kings 10:29, Amos 8:14,

Revelation 7:9-17,

Hope this helps explain for understanding

Verse 20- this is further proof that Jehovah God fought for his people against Sisera.

The Kenites were believed to be related to the Midianites & were closely associated with the Israelites. Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, was a Kenite ( Exodus 3:1; Judges 1:16), as was Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite ( Judges 5:24). Some of the Kenites settled with the Israelites & became absorbed into the tribe of Judah.

an opening in a wall ( 1 Kings 11:27 ; 2 Kings 12:5 ); the fracture of a limb ( Leviticus 24:20 ), and hence the expression, "Heal, etc." ( Psalms 60:2 ). Judges 5:17 , a bay or harbour;

The position God gave to Deborah, is a prime example of God demonstrating to us that the woman is capable of leadership.

Hello Richard. I can understand that Ephraim is seen as Joseph, but why mention Joseph, when his other son, Manasseh is mentioned separately in Rev 7? Joseph was generally seen by his sons' names, but here, Manasseh is separated, Ephraim is not mentioned, but Joseph is.

And of course, Dan is missing from Rev 7 & as you referred to Judges 5:17, "Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches." Both the territories of Dan & Asher were hard against the Mediterranean with their major ports of Joppa & Tyre respectively. You seem to have found a special answer to this, & since calling you won't be possible, you may like to share here what you have learned that is different to what Judges 5:17 indicates. As well as that mysterious verse that gives inconclusive proof to use only the KJV to the rejection of all others and the USA-in-the KJV proofs. You're keeping all of us on tenterhooks. Thank you.

Hello Again, Chris,

Wow...that is awesome to me that you have been right here before! What a thing!!

But other than that, I think you have missed the point and Truth that indeed Joseph IS Ephraim, and that is what is being said in Revelation, especially being that Manasseh, the other half-tribe of Joseph in addition to Ephraim, is also separately listed...thus a FULL 12 - TWELVE - Tribes-of-Israel NAMES...but totaling only ELEVEN TRIBES are in Revelation chapter 7's TWELVE NAMES LISTING...12...BUT NOT DAN!! Revelation 7 is the only listing in the Bible of the 12 Tribes where Dan is missing!! And being that Revelation is discussing and REVEALING by Almighty God Jesus Christ things END-TIME...that makes the Judges 5:17 question of God's so, so critical for the Bible believer to come to the answer of that will absolutely prove THE END IS HERE!

So then going back to that I was saying before, and saying it a little differently, it is deeply alluded to that the student must pray and look for, per the 3 passages, Genesis 49:16-18, Judges 5:17 mid-clause, and Revelation 7, the "and why did Dan remain in ships?"! That is what I studied to find some years ago and was asking you about; and that I would like to show you, being that you have not yet found the answer to that question of God's!!

So let me say and ask it this way: do you have means to phone me here in the U.S.? I have never called long-distance on my cell phone, and have no idea how to set such a thing up. So, if you can?!...**** is my number!

Then, I am not talking any "prophetical interpretations"; nor am I at all involved with anyone else in finding these things in hundreds and even thousands of my-own-by-myself hours of study over the years...these things are clear and guaranteed, and I am sure a couple hours on the phone together would have you absolutely convinced of and thrilled at these things! Want to do it?!!

I am completely flexible time-wise, so you pick it! Cordially, Richard

Hello Chris,

So we are what, then, you being in Australia?...about 12 hours apart time-wise?, as I am presently in Salt Lake City, Utah, it being now 2:00 A.M., USA Mountain-time. (Don't worry, I am not at all so-blind, so-deceived, and so-misguided Mormon/LDS!)

Yes, I am up now in the wee-hours of the morning, as I often am in Bible reading, and writing what I hope are encouraging evangelical Bible messages to both email and to print to hand out in public places. I have no family other than a landscape-architect sister in South Carolina, and a retired policeman brother in Atlanta, Georgia; and plus being now basically retired myself due to Covid I can do just about any sort of wake/sleep schedule as I might like, thus my often being up much overnight!

Let me ask you, what do you find of Prophetic End-Times Truth in the Bible? I have discovered America in tremendous amounts - probably well over 100 mentions in the Old Testament - as well much of England/the UK-British Isles, and even some references probably of where you are, Australia. I have also found reference to John Lennon and that most evil of antiChrist songs, Imagine, that he hatefully in-His-Face wrote against Almighty God Jesus Christ years ago.

Have you ever noticed that interesting quandary about the Hebrew Tribe of Dan...that for all the mentions of that Tribe in all the listings of the 12 Tribes/12 Sons of Israel in the Bible, that Dan is completely missing in the End-Times Revelation chapter 7 listing of the 12 Tribes?! See Genesis 49:16-18, and the awesome question God asks in the middle clause of Judges 5:17! I have found the answer to the great quandary of those 3 passages - Rev. 7:4-8, Genesis 49:16-18, & Judges 5:17 middle clause 7 words...and they are full of End-Time significance, as one would expect being that these 3 areas of the Scriptures are indeed End-Time sections! I have even found substantiating secular proofs to these verses, thus showing the End is definitely here! Richard"

Thanks Pa Ba

I think setting and authority is what's in view, Deborah was a prophetess that judged Israel, Judges 4:4.

I do understand this was not the church age, but it was certainly after Adam and Eve sin.

And yes Eve was deceived but Adam sinned also, Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The verse you presented here I think is a church setting, Paul is instructing Timothy to set up a Church.

but what about outside of that setting?

Teachers and Preachers is also sheep following chief shepherd.

We're tought humility as Peter was taught when the Lord washed his feet.

And look at Paul here

1 Corinthians 3:5-7 (KJV) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Another verse you given:

Titus 2:3-5 (KJV) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, TEACHERS of good things;

That they may TEACH the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

It's not at all in view of a lesser role in the body of Christ, It's a designed structure.

I think it's an extension of the model shown in Ephesians 5:22-32. a husband and wife modeling Christ and the Church.

I hope that helps. God bless

Most of the Bible is written to address men and not women, the weaker vessel as described. Eve sinned in the garden, not Adam. I guess my question is as a young new believer, how can both be done and still honor God. I have seen this modeled in the church both ways and it seems to be written clearly, until you read about Deborah. Esther seems clear because the setting is in a kingdom during that period.

Thank you,

Pa

Proverbs 31

I Timothy 2: 9-15

I Timothy 3: 11-12

I Timothy 5

Titus 2

What's this about this is my name and 7 years ago I was 13 so this is creepy

If you will type Judges chapter 5 TEACHING: the most used Commentators speak on this matter of Deborah arising to this occasion to rule as a Judge; or lead.

Type it in the Google Box.

It has happened that men get caught up in commerce and other lukewarm activities: and God will use a woman.

An identical need arose in the Book of Esther. By her dedication and actions, the death of the Jews was avoided.

There are definite warnings to be heeded here. When men are seeking direction from the feet of God: women have little need to do else but follow.

It's when we get taken captive by national sports teams, political wars, nations that refuse to practice fair trades and etc....

God may raise up women to get the nation headed in the direction God demands we go.

2 Chronicles 7:14

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Isaiah 57:15

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

James 4:10

Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Matthew 23:12

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

1 Peter 5:6

Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.

Mishael

Hello Jesse, I visited a Jewish Temple in Nashville,TN with my best friend around 1976. The men sat on the right side and the women were on the left. I thought it so strange. Years later I walked into a Mennonite/Anabaptist Church in California and saw the same separation. When ever visitors come they are welcome to sit together with their families. Covid set back the old ways for a half year, but we have bounced back to the tried and true. Yes, Paul was a good teacher, trying to move the Jewish believers ahead and deeper into Christ and the gentiles too. Thanks for bringing up the subject, it warmed my heart.

Carleton,

It sounds like your place of fellowship separates the men from the women? That is very interesting because I have not heard of that in the modern church. Definitely, nothing wrong with that, as the early church did so. But you can surely understand what was going on back in the early church, and Paul's need to give them correction.

God is a God of order. Like music that must harmonize and flow and have pattern. Music that has no order is just noise.

The order of man is that he is the glory of a woman and God is the glory of man. If we follow Gods order we harmonize with the will of God. God will work through us when we walk in harmony with Him. Rom 8:28

One other (possible) interesting tidbit. Our Canadian churches mostly seat the men on the left side while almost all of our US churches seat the men on the right. Most all of our congregations have baby rooms on both sides of the aisle.

Hi brother Jesse, It is true my wife and I never talk across the aisle at Church. Sometimes though she catches my eye.

:)

Hi Pa Ba

So do you disagree with Deborah's position?

Please Bring forward your scripture and put it in its proper content for reasoning.

Thank you.

Pa Ba,

There are two pieces of scripture that cover this. First of all, in 1 Corinthians 14:34, it says let your women keep silence in the churches: The word woman in scripture is also the word for wife, which meets the criteria for here.

Let your women, or wives, keep silence in the churches:

What does this mean? Well, in the early church, they had the men on one side and the women on the other. Men could not be with women, and women could not be with men. So somebody is up there teaching, and somebody's wife is over on the other side of the room going "Hey Fred, do you agree with that? What do you think?" And they are talking across the room.

She's not permitted to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. That's back in Genesis 3:16 under the woman. Remember after they sinned, God said I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception. In sorrow you shall bring forth children and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over thee.

So to solve this problem in the church, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." It's not that they can't speak at all. It's just that they were being disruptive.

The second piece of scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12 says, "But I suffer not, that is I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. So we've got two things here: I do not allow a woman to teach. There's one. It doesn't say anything about men. Nor, to usurp authority over the man, which is why they shouldn't teach.

The term usurp authority over the man, to usurp authority is the word authenticate. And it means that the woman is not to take the authenticity of man, what the male was created to do.

Pa Ba, may the Spirit grace you with HIS wisdom and HIS understanding.

Most everyone looks at the words in the scriptures as words that have a natural meaning, and they do; but, the WORDS were to be absolute truth in the SPIRITUAL MEANING. John 6:63

For women to be silent in the church and be taught by their husband has a far greater SPIRITUAL meaning than taught by the wisdom of men.

God is no respector of persons, the scriptures have gender in them to be used as instruction. God IS SPIRIT, spirit has no gender; but, God is always referred to in the male gender. The woman is referred to in the female gender. SPIRITUALLY the woman is the wife of Christ; whether you are a male or female you are the woman, Christ wife. The church is YOU; Christ is your husband (whether you be male of female); therefore we ALL (THE WOMAN) are to be silent in the church (ourselves) and let our husband (CHRIST) teach US.

You will be persecuted in brick and mortar churches that only have worldly wisdom.

There's a story about a prophet who wouldn't deliver a message, so God used a donkey to speak it.

Use the Search Box to locate that. Key in "donkey". It's Old Testament.

How can a woman encourage others to move forward as Deborah when men are to lead? The New Testament encourages women to be led by their husbands and to stay quiet.

Continuation...

In the 7th Seal, the Trumpets are introduced. This Seal signifies the last days of the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24. The Trumpets sound at the very last hour of the Tribulation. Then the Bowls of the Wrath of God are found in the last Trumpet. It is that last hour that is referred to as The Day of The Lord or Day of His Wrath. See 14:7.

In any case, Genesis 37:9 is a reference to people, more specifically, Joseph's brothers. Now, although the reference in Judges 5:20 appears to be to Angels, it is more specifically a reference to earthly Kings at war.

In Revelation 22:16, Jesus refers to Himself as The Bright and Morning Star.

Joel 2:10 seems to be speaking of more than just stars. It is speaks of the powerful and influential, whose luster, whose brightness, whose power, appeal and influence are diminished by the army of God. But who is that army? It is an army of people.

Again, who is the star in Revelation 9:1?

I hope this answers your question. But keep in mind that in everyday speak and historically, we sometimes refer to prominent people as stars, too.

Thanks for asking. It would be good to hear your opinion on this also.

Carlos Ramirez Trevio

A study of the metaphorical reference to stars in the Bible, shows that stars are iften a reference to people, not just physical heavenly bodies, such as stars, meteors, planets.

See examples in:

Revelation 1:20

Jude 1:13

Nahum 3:16

Judges 5:20

Revelation 9:1

those in the arc of christ, will have the same fate he did

So far from the truth, so so far

Verse 23~The inhabitants of Meroz failed to come to the aid of Jehovah God and for this they were cursed.

Verse 5~The mountains are figuratively spoken of as melting before Jehovah God. This shows the tremendous amount of power that God has.