It is true that it is surprizing also to me that the grk word "aion" (age/time) is used sometimes in the NT instead of the word "world" because in modern grk it means "century". So I have done a research and came up that in ancient grk it had the meaning apart from "a very long period of time", it also had the meaning of "the period of time a person lives".
So it was used in conjuction to people"s lives. And it seems that sometimes (but not always) the writers of the NT use it for the time that this world/humanity exists. And with that meaning it is used in Mat 28. With the same meaning it also used by Luke in Luke 16:8, by Paul in Rom 12:2 and Ephesians 6:12 where Paul talks about the "rulers of the darkness of this world" , where the word "age/time" is used for "world".
But in other verses the world "kosmos" which is the actual grk word for "world" is used, ie in John 18:20, also John 16:11 where John talks about "the prince of this world". (compare it with Ephesians 6:12 that talks about the same thing). So as a final conclusion those two words are interchanged for "world".
Spencer:
"Kosmos" in anc grk means "mankind, humanity". In mod grk it means everything, people, animals, plants. land.
"Oikoumene" means the places/land on earth where people are living.
Also the word "ktisis" is used for world, it means "creation".
Well this is enough with lessons in Greek. Confusing? We have to trust those scholars who have done a very good job in translating the NT. There isn't a perfect translation, all translations lack in some things, even modern greek can not match with ancient greek in meanings. As a conclusion all translations are more or less good. There is no actual error when other words are used as long as the meaning of the text is right. Some go word for word, others not, but there are more understandable than the former ones. Everybody has their favourite translation. We can always use 2 or more when we are not sure what it is meant. GBU
Walking in the Spirit-Study on how to see the Lord in others
Let us focus again on the Matthew 16 passage. 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
I am hammering home this concept because it is paramount in understanding who the Lord is; and needed to be understood if anyone is to grow as a true Disciple. Let us examine several problems here. The first problem would be considering that somehow the soul of one of these three prophets was living inside Christ which seems to be the concept here; a sort of "reincarnation"; except for the case of John the Baptist who it appears Herod thought had repossessed Christ after having him killed ( Matthew 14:1-2). The concept of the Holy Ghost manifesting in someone as He did with someone else isn't entirely wrong or unscriptural; we see for instance Elisha having a double portion of the Spirit that Elijah had ( 2 Kings 2:9). John the Baptist also was like Elijah in a way ( Matthew 17:12). This correct analogy of course is NOT what people are saying. This fits in also to those who would call Him teacher or Rabbi. Luke 16:15 warns us that what is honorable among men is an abomination to God. Names and titles mean nothing; neither does human pride. Let us once again examine this concept of exaltation of Pastors.
The easy point to make here is that we should never put men on a pedestal; or substitute worship for God alone to a man.
This doesn't change the fact that we should seek examples to emulate; as it is essential for discipleship.
My first time here. So forgive me if I ask in the wrong place etc.
Psalm 75:8 says "For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; It is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: But the dregs thereof, All the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them."
In Luke 16:24 "24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
My question is does the Luke 16:24 in any way cancel out Psalm 75:8. I understand the rich man was still in the not so good part of Abraham's bosom.
However I've been told that Psalm 75:8 would not be possible since there is no water thus no moisture in hell. Even tho that to me is clearly not the full extent of hell yet. Thank for any replies, Lester
We should "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" ( 1 Peter 3:15). We prepare by studying God's Word for ourselves, listening to sound Bible teachers, and staying in close fellowship with Jesus. Those practices keep our own lives pure so that we are not hypocrites who preach one thing but do another Galatians 6:1.
Evangelism provides eternal benefits. Jesus encouraged His followers to "store up treasure in heaven" ( Matthew 6:19). That treasure consists of rewards for what we did on earth in His name and for His glory. It is not self-centered to make choices that will ensure eternal treasure for ourselves. Jesus told us to! Our service to Him can be as simple as offering a cup of cold water to one of His own ( Matthew 10:42). The parable of the unjust steward underscores the importance of doing whatever we can to bring people to faith in Christ ( Luke 16:1-13).
4. Evangelism is an overflow of the "hope that is within us" ( Hebrews 6:19; 1 Peter 3:15). When two people fall in love, they cannot help but let everyone around them know it. Joy shows on their faces; stars glitter in their eyes. They are eager to tell anyone who will listen about the wonderful person they love. So it is when we've fallen in love with Jesus. We cannot help but tell people about Him every chance we get. We think about Him all the time. We're drawn to His Word, to worship services, and to others who love Him. We look for opportunities to share His truth with someone who is far from Him. If Jesus is not at the forefront of our minds, we have a spiritual problem and need to address that first before we can share the "hope that is within us."
Continuing with conviction of the Spirit vs man made manipulation.
In light of John 16:8 it is hard to understand the concept of bending over backwards to have people feel comfortable and "fit in" to a church. In fact; I would even go so far as to say it wouldn't be a bad slogan for a church to say in their bulletin that people should "plan to feel UNcomfortable" in their services. How can the fear of the Lord be something which is entertaining to anyone?
How can to so called "hole in men's hearts that only God can fill" appeal to anyone who doesn't conceive their own hopelessness before a righteous and Holy God who they have offended and continue to do so as long as they are unregenerate? ( Psalm 7:11-13). God is angry with the wicked every day; and it is truly sad that many don't get that to appreaciate His love; mercy; and kindness that we have to understand who we are and what great cost it was that He had to send His only Son to die in our stead.
We need something powerful enough to stand against an intractable foe; who seeks to kill; steal and destroy. Let's be real; if a church wants to seek and save the lost they won't be focusing so much time on flashy entertainment; and expensive building projects but will focus on missionary efforts. Many have bought into either careless giving with unscrupulous ministries that are not biblically sound or doing a bunch of service projects without the MAIN priority being presenting the Gospel. We can't err on the other side either with resources; but I have found it is often individual efforts of laypersons on a consistant basis that have more effect than occasional outings where everything tends to be rather scripted. And of course there is the BIG issue of cult personalities where noteriety becomes a snare; sadly that seems to have occured with Billy Graham when he didn't protest having a star in hollywood with his name on a pavement. SEE LUKE 16:15. We don't need approval of politicians or the world.
You will receive different understandings of this. This is something you will need to pray and study for your own conscience. There are some things to question. Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or is it something that truly happened? Study chapters 15 and 17 and consider what Jesus is teaching.
One thing that influences our understanding is the Greek philosophy of the immortal soul. When we die do we sleep in death until resurrection or do we go to heaven or go to a burning hell for eternity? What does scripture support? Does scripture say we are awake in death?
My understanding is we sleep in death until we are resurrected, and the gift of immortality is not given until resurrection to those chosen and faithful. Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, and the context of this chapter is the love of money and stewardship, Jesus was addressing this to the Pharisees who loved money, "No servant can serve two masters".
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ( Rev. 21:8)
Unbelieving: The first verse that comes to mind here is the man with a son that had a demon possessed son who was being thrown into water; etc. That passage is Mark 9:24 and the whole incident is worth reading to understand further how there was rampant lack of faith as well as preparation for casting out the demon. REALIZING we have unbelief results from the Holy Spirit changing us; it is not what is often a false gospel of not having faith enough for a family member to be healed; or some power trip by a ministry more interested in notoriety and ultimately greedy for gain with someone given a title of "healer". We can say at the time of Christ it was indeed foolish not to believe He could work any miracles including bringing one back from death; because it was only rejecting His claim of Divinity that a person could reject Him which shows the depths of blindness of the Pharisees. The core issue which remains the same is the fact that we are all as "filthy rags" ( Isaiah 64:6) and this includes our so called "good deeds".
Abominable: Luke 16:15 shows what men hold as esteemed is an abomination before God. To esteem something shows a sort of prideful mentality; acclaim and praise is something Christ warned about in numerous passages (see Luke 6:26; another passage in this book as one example). Even calling Christ good implies that he as a mere man or prophet is good; and Christ makes it clear only God alone is good ( Mark 10:18). This is what is so dangerous about anyone who men praise; not only do they almost always practice false theology but we are convinced our own righteousness will justify us in the day of judgment.
No wonder Satan appearing as an angel of light fools lost souls ( 2 Cor. 11:14).
Jesus Christ as the Lord is the Lord of heaven so he is heavenly. All the prophets until John served the Son as the double for Jesus Christ. "The law and the prophets were until John."( Luke 16:16)
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,/Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (He.1:1-3). It is of him Moses had warned,"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken."(De.18:15). Moses stood as a stand-in for him. So did every prophet. He is the heir so seven days in the covenant in which seven is a kangaroo word.
The Spirit gives us multiplying of loaves 8:7-9 "And he (Jesus) blessed, and commanded to set them also before them./So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets./And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away." Here we seven baskets of the broken meat which stands as the testimony of the Son to his Father. Generally speaking the command numbers are incorporated in the God document to distinguish which is which. Considering the manner imposter church has let them proliferate shows the enemy is within the house. Jesus would soon clear his house of the Canaanites. "and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of theLordof hosts."(Ze.14:21)
While studying the significance of the command numbers Twelve and Seven respectively their place in the body of Scriptures is to fix the role of the Son as the heir of all things and the Son of man who is the Word become flesh. It is in the latter role whose humanity sets the doctrine of God as the good news since he died and rose again. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."(He.2:9). So he appointed the twelve in obedience to the Word who was with God.( John 1:1). By healing two, where twelve years are a reminder of the word of God stated in Ge.6:3. As the Word become flesh he obeyed the word of God. Similarly when virtue went out Jesus it was the Spirit's way of reminding that he was anointed for his ministry. He was the Servant-Messiah, fulfilling what was spoken of him by the prophets, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."(Matt.8:17)
For this reason the Spirit gives us the number of baskets as twelve, which serves as a testimony to God. "And they did all eat, and were filled./And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes."(vv.42-43)
The Holy Spirit tags the entities who made the everlasting covenant as the Father and the Son. Of the latter John says,"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made./In him was life; and the life was the light of men."(John1:3-4). Fulfilling the divine Will of the Father we have the tag Seven which is Perfect number. Seven provisions in the covenant therefore are seven days. Thus when the angel warns "for the hour of his judgment is come" the hour is set in heaven and it is not as we count earth time. Ministry of Jesus is from heaven so what role did all the prophets until John did? ( Luke 16:16)
"And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country." (v.10)
Mark sets Jesus crossing" the other side of the sea into the country of the Gadarenes."The sea mentioned here is the lake of Galilee on the south. Lucan gospel explains the location so we may conclude that Jesus with his disciples arrived there from Galilee. ("which is over against Galilee".-8:26) Gadara is not directly named in the scripture but was a walled city where the Gentiles lived mostly and was a part of the Decapolis. The point of location we need note to our intent and purpose is this: geographically Gadarenes is situated on the east of the Jordan river. Crossing of the Jordan river in spiritual terms signifies death.
Jesus cast out the many demons from the man. They all had a request:"And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
"For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit."/And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many./And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country."(vv.8-10)
Unclean spirits require a body which is impossible for Satan to create. He is the father of lies and not of life. For this reason he used a serpent to beguile Eve and being cast out they had unanimously chose the herd of swine.
"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."(1 Co.15:38-40). Here we have a country separate from the land of Galilee. In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the latter had a place while Galilee signified the blessed state of the beggar. The other man's riches come in all forms and weights. Sheep, cattle and swines are part contributing to the wealth, and the rich man who wished Lazarus to visit him had chosen his own country. His cry came too late. ( Luke 16:24)
Heresies did not occur happenstance; but their knowledge of good and evil is still where the fall of man left it. Eve let truth given to her aside and let the counsel of the serpent, that seemed better' decide. She let the context determine if it is good or evil. Thus the context of glory of this world has created in them a contextual truth so they serve both God and mammon. If Adam was not trustworthy with the glory and true riches let him as the Parable of the Shred Steward tells,"for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light./And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations./ He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much."( Luke 16:8-11)
In this passage the Spirit is setting two sets of families each representing the world of the Spirit and of the body. In the former world familial relationship is pendent to the covenant between God and Man, The latter is symbolic of heaven but in keeping with the body formed of the dust, it is the union of dust to dust and ashes to ashes. "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."(12:25; Matt.22:30). Resurrection of the dead is restoration of the covenant to its former glory where Power and glory of God renders the Man his throne so "and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."(Re.21:3)
Thus the saying of Jesus refers to the world of the Spirit,"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren./And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."(Matt.23:8-9)
In marriage man and woman leave their parents and they shall be one flesh, "And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?"( Luke 16:12; Ge.2:23)
This was provisioned for in the covenant. In Ge.1:28-29 we are shown what our Father in heaven had entrusted them with His creation. "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." This was entrusted with man in his Son. It is to this God willed and the covenant exists, and as a proof sent his only begotten Son to the world in fulness of time.
As the key verse states there is no gender difference. Only those who do the will of God.
Hello D.E.S. I agree that there isn't much given to us in the Bible to give clear teaching - it comes down to how one understands what is given. BTW, the John 3:13 reference you gave, is actually Jesus' response to Nicodemus, when he queried Jesus' Knowledge of these strange things he was hearing. Jesus told him that He was telling him things that only one from God's Presence could do; and that was of this new birth/new heart to be born again, that God required. No man has ever entered Heaven to learn such things & bring this news down to Earth, only Jesus could, He Who came down from Heaven.
That aside, I would ask you to give thought to these Scriptures: Luke 16:19-31 and Luke 23:39-43. In the Luke 16 account, Jesus gave us a glimpse of life after death (the locations of those were prior to Jesus' Own Resurrection). Here, we read that there was consciousness beyond the grave; their bodies were buried, but they were aware of their situation, of joy or pain, even of concerns.
Then the Luke 23 reference. Jesus gave the repentant thief (hanging on the Cross beside Him), the assurance that at his death, he would join Jesus in Paradise - the place of no pain & real comfort. If people today die & just remain in the grave awaiting the resurrection, then most certainly, those of Jesus' day knew that their spirits would live on in the place of God's appointment for them, while their earthly remains awaited resurrection & final judgement. Sending this for your reading & consideration & for God's Comfort & Assurance to be your daily experience.
Jesus of Nazareth came; in the flesh to fulfill numerous prophecies from the Old Testament of the Messiah to come; yet most didn't believe. This is inclusive of His own family members; the Pharisees and Saducees; and at times attitudes from His own disciples.
Eventually after He was risen the stupor was lifted at least for those who He had called and chosen. (see John 1:11; John 7:4-5).
In assessing the situation with the very real parable of Lazarus and the unnamed rich man; the very clear reality is shown that even if one was to rise from the dead they wouldn't believe ( Luke 16:31). This was proven by the soldiers and the concocted tale of how the body of Christ was stolen while they slept ( Matthew 28:13). It would be expected that the supernatural signs with the sun and moon during the Crucifixion would have been enough to convince everyone what had just happened; but we see similar things during the plagues in Revelation; yet the unregenerate in the end will attempt to fight Christ upon His return after hiding from Him during the sixth seal judgment.
Thus; the Holy Spirit is hidden from the world. Much as Christ's acts were recognized; many would not understand that He was indeed the Son of God. Some; as the Pharisees would blaspheme stating that the source was Beelzebub which prompted the warnings of Mark 3:29. Others such as the crowds being fed or those being healed were caught up with having their stomachs filled or earthly ills relieved; and as we see in Luke 17:11-19 only one of ten lepers comes back to Christ to worship Him after being healed. The rest followed Christ's instructions technically to go show themselves to the priests to affirm healing but weren't giving priority to the Messiah over Levitical law. This speaks to us on how we should not have fear to authenticate what are genuine healings as opposed to false ones which sadly are commonplace today.
Jesus in His teaching on this (& this account was not a parable as it does not meet the definition of a parable) is found in Luke 16:20-31, showing that the spirit of man must go somewhere. In the OT economy, where Hades was that temporary residence of departed souls till the Cross, Jesus still taught that there was consciousness in the after-life & also places of rest & waiting and also of torment. And Jesus was giving a real view of life beyond the grave, or else by naming people & places, He was just a deceiver. Jesus never did that; all His parables were without specifics, just everyday situations to which there was a special meaning. Luke 16 is not a parable but a view of the after-life - and He should know.
"Hell is a finality.", you wrote. No, Hell & Heaven are only the beginning. Our lives on Earth are but a quick snapshot of time compared to an everlasting existence, whether in God's Presence or in torment. And finally, you stated a good question, "Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!" What Jesus was teaching here is that the departed spirit can still feel agony, just as there can be joy & celebration (e.g. Luke 15:10). The spirit of this 'rich man' wasn't thirsty for even a sip of water - he was in torment, & sought comfort, ANY comfort, to relieve him of his agony. Would any amount of water have helped him - I seriously doubt it, but our earthly comparison to this would be, "a drowning man will clutch at a straw" to try & save himself, & would fit the Luke 16 account. And the rich man even pleaded that his brothers would be warned now while still alive, lest they come into such an awful place. So the actual fundamental question remains is: since the Word of God is replete with accounts of the awfulness of a Christ-less eternity, are we going to take the warnings given in it as just a story/a parable/a fable or believe in Jesus & the apostles' words?
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not MOSES and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way they (the church) call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers; believing ALL THINGS written in the LAW and the PROPHETS.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came many unto him in his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM of GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses,and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Most don't believe ALL THINGS written in MOSES and the PROPHETS.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this honoru hath all his saints.
Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgements (administered by the saints) are in the earth (second resurrection), the world WILL LEARN righteousness.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world SHALL REMEMBER (when they are resurrected and judged by the saints) AND TURN (repent) unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Isaiah 66:24 And they (the saints) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their (the saints) WORM shall not die; neither shall their (the saints') FIRE be quenched, and they (the saints) shall be and abhorring to all flesh.
Job 25:6 And much less man, that is a worm?and the son or man WHICH IS A WORM.
Psalms 22:6 .... But I am a worm .....
Mark 9:46 Where their WORM dieth not, nor is the FIRE quenched.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 13:34 ... and without a parable he spake he not unto them......
The whole word of God is Christ speaking.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will open my DARK SAYINGS of the harps (his people)
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
Thank you Shabbat Keeper for coming back to me. I'll respond to your three recent posts to me with my one here.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
May the LORD give us wisdom in reading, studying and applying HIS word.
2 Timothy 2:15
James 2:
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
May we be intercessors in CHRIST name, Isaiah 59:16, for those who have been blinded by the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.
We are called to stand in the gap for others, Ezekiel 22:30, and plant the seed of the word that others may water and that GOD will give the increase.
Acts 15:
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
"And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul(v.17).
The covenant that Jonathan and David enter into concerns two houses, of Jonathan and David respectively, soul of each being knit as one. The Spirit has set them signifying the role of the soul of man which is a presence establishing truth written in his inward parts. There is no excuse the rich fool in the Parable did nothing to be rich towards God. Now Jonathan has precognition as to the role David was to play. He is also aware that his father had lost it all.'And theLordbe with thee, as he hath been with my father'.
In the min-max narrative mode every covenant a believer makes with Jesus Christ and accepting him as the Savior Lord conforms to the covenant of God made with the Son.(Ps.2:7-8). As discussed in the post titled School of Prophets a prophet is appointed by God and when he spoke of judgment it was valid for specific as well as for the Final judgment. The reason is simple: the eternal word is settled in heaven.(Ps.119:89) and it applies specifically to Jesus Christ.For thetestimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.(Re.19:10-NKJV) " For this reason prophets from Abraham ('for he is a prophet'-Ge.20:7)to John ( Luke 16:16) are like series regardless of time and place takes us to the Day of the Lord. "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people./Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice(Ps.50:4-5)".
Jonathan is a stand-in for soul to which David signifies the Son. In eternity the body of Christ the church has only one Law and,- Zion is the soul of New Jerusalem; and Psalm of Asaph sings,'Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined(Ps.50:2; Is.2:3).
I didn't say I was of the Universalist religion, I said I'm a universalist because I believe that God will Save all His creatures at His appointed time. Furthermore, when you say things like "mainstream Christian religions" I'm glad I'm on the other side of them because, James 3:1; in other words preachers and teachers will receive a more strict Judgment. Thus, if a preacher or teacher gets something wrong AND teaches it, that misinterpretation will lead them into sin and that teacher will receive a portion of all those sins
Nothing "diminishes" Christ's Work, if a person doesn't understand something, does that misunderstanding somehow nullify that which is misunderstood? If a man doesn't understand what Christ did, it takes away NOTHING from Christ; that misunderstanding takes away from the one who misunderstands and for that we must pray.
I'm glad you brought up eternal punishment. Why does God punish? Answer: for correction. God doesn't abuse, He corrects. Hell is not Eternal, I've shown this but, I'll show you more! We should all know of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16:19-31. We can see that the rich man (Jew) went to hell and begged Abraham to help him, but Abraham said that he couldn't! Now, add to this the other half of The Message, 1 Peter 3:19-20. You see, Christ went to MINISTER to souls in hell (prison) for He is a Savior, ALWAYS and FOREVER! And, He is still down their Saving souls. To "put it together" a Jew dies unbelieving of Christ, hell is the result. The Jew asks for help from Abraham and is denied. Now, a person who knew of Christ but never Fully gave in to Him (false Christian, maybe), is also in hell and now they are in torment and in a final desperate PLEA call out to Christ Jesus! Psalms 139:7-12. And He Saves in front of all in there, truthfully, do you think the people there will be calling to their idols? Or, will they Cry Out to Christ? Instant Conversion to The Truth! Think about it, He is a WONDERFUL GOD!!!!!!
From the context 'And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him(4:15b) it is more making Cain as the one 'most likely to succeed',- and in this sense he fits with the shrewd servant in the Parable of Jesus. "For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. / I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.( Luke 16:8-9-NIV)."
The Spirit disposes of Cain and takes up a new narrative in vv.25-26. This leads us to the generations of Adam proper. This alternative Genealogy carries all who would press into the nation built entirely out of the people of light. Thus the entire narrative from the separation of light from darkness (Ge.1:4) is about two nations of light and of wrath.
The genealogy in ch.5 has this peculiar construction.
For example vv.3-4
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:/
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
In his own likeness prefaces Seth who is a double for the Son; he is called to be the heir of inheritance among children in light. The rest are consigned after the likeness of man.
"And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God."(v.8)
Here the Spirit is speaking of the Fellowship of God, a Spirit with Man. What holds them together which is what Law here signifies so testimony of Jacob is same as testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophesy. In the prayer of Jesus speaks, 'Sanctify them (his disciples) with truth; thy word is truth." ( John 17:17)
this Word is the truth, the Law basis for the kingdom of God. The Word became flesh and in his human likeness he made manifest Truth as doable. "I am the truth." Spirit of Christ before the Advent is what the Holy Spirit refers here. Speaking of the nation of Israel their fathers were a stubborn and rebellious generation as they would do to the man sent from God. They denied him, In short we see the rebellious spirit of disobedience evolving generations after generations along with this part of the creation account. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"(Ge.2:4) God separated light from darkness which creates generations after generations of children of wrath whose spirit was not steadfast with God. So in the Psalm what do their fathers ask? "Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?"(78:20). Now they want prosperity! Children want toys that rattle and that come with colors and shapes. Similarly babes in Christ want jingle of material wealth. These are 'other man's riches' as Jesus would say. ( Luke 16:11-12)
David0921, we have already discussed at length, both correct Bible hermeneutics & the salvation of souls, both pre and post Cross. And as you've stated several times before, "we must compare Scripture with Scripture, etc, etc.".
Here we have Luke 16:19-31, a passage where there seems no other Scripture in the Bible that lends support/complements it, with such graphic detail. In your application of the principles you've suggested, what would you do with such a passage in Luke 16, when there is no other related teaching or other verses? The choices I see are: accept what Jesus spoke, as a one-off account of life after death pre-Cross; rewrite the verse to bring it into line with other verses that speak of the after-life; or, reject the passage altogether & read it as just another story/parable of Jesus that isn't intended to describe a real-life event.
To use your principle, that there 'must be other Scriptures relating to each other so as to form a belief/doctrine', I would reject that passage & never refer to it at all. I wouldn't even quote it as a parable, as it doesn't fulfil the definition of a parable. Therefore, not wanting to take such a drastic action, I'm forced to do something else with the passage; and that 'something' is to accept Jesus' Words as Truth & the events declared as real, since I won't accept that Jesus was intentionally deceptive when speaking about the fate of certain people for the purposes of a sharing a story/parable. But you're right about a 'divergence of doctrines by the churches'; just look at the LDS Church & 1 Corinthians 15:29: this is an example of a major departure from the Truth.
Hi David 0921. I agree with you that raising of Lazarus from the dead was "an actual historical event". And yes, not only from actual defined parables, but also from such real-life events as this one, there are lessons to be learned.
However, with the Luke 16:19-31 account I simply cannot accept it as a 'non-literal historical event'. You mention that "no one in the grave has eyes to see or a mouth to speak". It is true, that the deceased's physical eyes & mouths have long been destroyed in the grave, yet in the spiritual realm there still remains a consciousness, for the spirit of man cannot die. Now whether those three mentioned in Hades (under the OT economy) had physical members or not is not mentioned, but that a conversation took place. Now, if these figures in Hades were only presented as a story "to teach some aspect of the Gospel", then wouldn't it be very wrong of Jesus to name them & place them?
Look at any of the parables of Jesus (e.g. the Sower, the Tares, the Hid Treasure, the Ten Virgins, the Rich Fool, the Lost Sheep, etc.). Do any of them give the names or even the exact locations where the events took place? So a parable's definition is not just the Truth that Jesus wanted to impart to the people (a Truth that generally they could not perceive, therefore the need of 'story-telling'), but a parable had to meet this other criterion (of not naming people or places), or else it wasn't a parable. The Luke 16 account was an actual event told by Jesus as He claimed that Abraham & Lazarus were there in the Hades portion of comfort. If this were not true, then I would have to admit to Jesus being deceptive, when He could just as easily have shared a similar Truth without resorting to names of actual people & places. The lesson learned from this does conform to the message of a parable, but the actual event is real, unlike other of His parables.
Hi Jema. Just a couple of points to note from your understanding of those passages you quoted. You believe that Simon the Leper ( Matthew 26:6) might be the same person, now named Lazarus (in John 11:1-6). As I understand it, the account of the sickness, death & resurrection of Lazarus (brother of Mary & Martha) took place some time before the account of Simon the Leper. Jesus was on His second journey (after first leaving Jerusalem (in Winter): John 10:22, then onto Jordan: John 10:40) when news came to Him of Lazarus' sickness ( John 11:3). But Jesus continued to stay at Jordan ( John 11:6) & then went to Bethany to deceased Lazarus.
Now the account of Simon the Leper, also in Bethany, occurred very near to the Passover Feast ( Matthew 26:2). And we know this to be so, because after the woman's anointing of Jesus in Simon the Leper's home, Jesus' disciples were annoyed at the waste of this ointment, & Judas Iscariot then left them to put into effect his wicked act. And of course, Jesus then celebrates the Passover with His disciples at the appointed time. So the Lazarus (in John 11) & Simon the Leper (in Matthew 26) can't be the same person and of course it would have saddened Lazarus (& others) tremendously that he who died because of some sickness & was raised by Jesus, yet wasn't healed of his leprosy.
As well, the account of the rich man & (the other) Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31) is understood to have happened after the Lazarus (of John 11) was raised to life, not before. A synopsis of the Gospels shows that after Jesus began His journey towards Bethany, He also ministered along the way ( Luke 13:22 to Luke 17:1-10). After this, Jesus arrives in Bethany to see the lifeless body of his friend.
Hi David0921. Just to touch on some of the points in your recent several comments.
Referring to Romans 3: Yes, it is a chapter of mankind's sinful condition, hence it was not written TO ALL mankind, but ABOUT ALL mankind. So, if all mankind lies in sin, how does God seek to remedy that disease? We know that it can only be through Christ, but where we differ is that you believe that Christ's Blood availed for those OT sinners while they were still alive. My belief: that Christ's Blood availed for them & us, ONLY after the payment for sin was completed.
Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 only speaks about 'death & the grave'. Looking at the Greek, for both those words, 'thanatos' is given & not Hades. So 'death & the grave' are understood as only that: 'death as confined to the grave'; no Hades here, a word which refers to an actual hell of spiritual confinement.
Then to the passages I shared, to which you wrote that 'none of them support OT believers going to a place called Hades at death'. For sure, most of those references just spoke about a very real place called Hades, to which I was drawing your attention to the fact that there is a name Hades. But when Jesus spoke of Abraham & Lazarus also being there, this is where "we (must) compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word" (your quote). If we then disregard Luke 16:19-31 in its entirety, then we do great disservice to God's Word & our understanding of (for example, Hades) then becomes skewed. Onto Page 2.
David0921. I didn't say that Hebrews 11 spoke about Hades. I referred to Abraham (in Hebrews 11); that when he died, that he went to Hades ( Luke 16:19-31).
Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.
The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.
It is true that it is surprizing also to me that the grk word "aion" (age/time) is used sometimes in the NT instead of the word "world" because in modern grk it means "century". So I have done a research and came up that in ancient grk it had the meaning apart from "a very long period of time", it also had the meaning of "the period of time a person lives".
So it was used in conjuction to people"s lives. And it seems that sometimes (but not always) the writers of the NT use it for the time that this world/humanity exists. And with that meaning it is used in Mat 28. With the same meaning it also used by Luke in Luke 16:8, by Paul in Rom 12:2 and Ephesians 6:12 where Paul talks about the "rulers of the darkness of this world" , where the word "age/time" is used for "world".
But in other verses the world "kosmos" which is the actual grk word for "world" is used, ie in John 18:20, also John 16:11 where John talks about "the prince of this world". (compare it with Ephesians 6:12 that talks about the same thing). So as a final conclusion those two words are interchanged for "world".
Spencer:
"Kosmos" in anc grk means "mankind, humanity". In mod grk it means everything, people, animals, plants. land.
"Oikoumene" means the places/land on earth where people are living.
Also the word "ktisis" is used for world, it means "creation".
Well this is enough with lessons in Greek. Confusing? We have to trust those scholars who have done a very good job in translating the NT. There isn't a perfect translation, all translations lack in some things, even modern greek can not match with ancient greek in meanings. As a conclusion all translations are more or less good. There is no actual error when other words are used as long as the meaning of the text is right. Some go word for word, others not, but there are more understandable than the former ones. Everybody has their favourite translation. We can always use 2 or more when we are not sure what it is meant. GBU
Let us focus again on the Matthew 16 passage. 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
I am hammering home this concept because it is paramount in understanding who the Lord is; and needed to be understood if anyone is to grow as a true Disciple. Let us examine several problems here. The first problem would be considering that somehow the soul of one of these three prophets was living inside Christ which seems to be the concept here; a sort of "reincarnation"; except for the case of John the Baptist who it appears Herod thought had repossessed Christ after having him killed ( Matthew 14:1-2). The concept of the Holy Ghost manifesting in someone as He did with someone else isn't entirely wrong or unscriptural; we see for instance Elisha having a double portion of the Spirit that Elijah had ( 2 Kings 2:9). John the Baptist also was like Elijah in a way ( Matthew 17:12). This correct analogy of course is NOT what people are saying. This fits in also to those who would call Him teacher or Rabbi. Luke 16:15 warns us that what is honorable among men is an abomination to God. Names and titles mean nothing; neither does human pride. Let us once again examine this concept of exaltation of Pastors.
The easy point to make here is that we should never put men on a pedestal; or substitute worship for God alone to a man.
This doesn't change the fact that we should seek examples to emulate; as it is essential for discipleship.
Psalm 75:8 says "For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; It is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: But the dregs thereof, All the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them."
In Luke 16:24 "24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
My question is does the Luke 16:24 in any way cancel out Psalm 75:8. I understand the rich man was still in the not so good part of Abraham's bosom.
However I've been told that Psalm 75:8 would not be possible since there is no water thus no moisture in hell. Even tho that to me is clearly not the full extent of hell yet. Thank for any replies, Lester
Part 2.
We should "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" ( 1 Peter 3:15). We prepare by studying God's Word for ourselves, listening to sound Bible teachers, and staying in close fellowship with Jesus. Those practices keep our own lives pure so that we are not hypocrites who preach one thing but do another Galatians 6:1.
Evangelism provides eternal benefits. Jesus encouraged His followers to "store up treasure in heaven" ( Matthew 6:19). That treasure consists of rewards for what we did on earth in His name and for His glory. It is not self-centered to make choices that will ensure eternal treasure for ourselves. Jesus told us to! Our service to Him can be as simple as offering a cup of cold water to one of His own ( Matthew 10:42). The parable of the unjust steward underscores the importance of doing whatever we can to bring people to faith in Christ ( Luke 16:1-13).
4. Evangelism is an overflow of the "hope that is within us" ( Hebrews 6:19; 1 Peter 3:15). When two people fall in love, they cannot help but let everyone around them know it. Joy shows on their faces; stars glitter in their eyes. They are eager to tell anyone who will listen about the wonderful person they love. So it is when we've fallen in love with Jesus. We cannot help but tell people about Him every chance we get. We think about Him all the time. We're drawn to His Word, to worship services, and to others who love Him. We look for opportunities to share His truth with someone who is far from Him. If Jesus is not at the forefront of our minds, we have a spiritual problem and need to address that first before we can share the "hope that is within us."
See part 3.
In light of John 16:8 it is hard to understand the concept of bending over backwards to have people feel comfortable and "fit in" to a church. In fact; I would even go so far as to say it wouldn't be a bad slogan for a church to say in their bulletin that people should "plan to feel UNcomfortable" in their services. How can the fear of the Lord be something which is entertaining to anyone?
How can to so called "hole in men's hearts that only God can fill" appeal to anyone who doesn't conceive their own hopelessness before a righteous and Holy God who they have offended and continue to do so as long as they are unregenerate? ( Psalm 7:11-13). God is angry with the wicked every day; and it is truly sad that many don't get that to appreaciate His love; mercy; and kindness that we have to understand who we are and what great cost it was that He had to send His only Son to die in our stead.
We need something powerful enough to stand against an intractable foe; who seeks to kill; steal and destroy. Let's be real; if a church wants to seek and save the lost they won't be focusing so much time on flashy entertainment; and expensive building projects but will focus on missionary efforts. Many have bought into either careless giving with unscrupulous ministries that are not biblically sound or doing a bunch of service projects without the MAIN priority being presenting the Gospel. We can't err on the other side either with resources; but I have found it is often individual efforts of laypersons on a consistant basis that have more effect than occasional outings where everything tends to be rather scripted. And of course there is the BIG issue of cult personalities where noteriety becomes a snare; sadly that seems to have occured with Billy Graham when he didn't protest having a star in hollywood with his name on a pavement. SEE LUKE 16:15. We don't need approval of politicians or the world.
You will receive different understandings of this. This is something you will need to pray and study for your own conscience. There are some things to question. Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or is it something that truly happened? Study chapters 15 and 17 and consider what Jesus is teaching.
One thing that influences our understanding is the Greek philosophy of the immortal soul. When we die do we sleep in death until resurrection or do we go to heaven or go to a burning hell for eternity? What does scripture support? Does scripture say we are awake in death?
My understanding is we sleep in death until we are resurrected, and the gift of immortality is not given until resurrection to those chosen and faithful. Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, and the context of this chapter is the love of money and stewardship, Jesus was addressing this to the Pharisees who loved money, "No servant can serve two masters".
God bless,
RLW
Unbelieving: The first verse that comes to mind here is the man with a son that had a demon possessed son who was being thrown into water; etc. That passage is Mark 9:24 and the whole incident is worth reading to understand further how there was rampant lack of faith as well as preparation for casting out the demon. REALIZING we have unbelief results from the Holy Spirit changing us; it is not what is often a false gospel of not having faith enough for a family member to be healed; or some power trip by a ministry more interested in notoriety and ultimately greedy for gain with someone given a title of "healer". We can say at the time of Christ it was indeed foolish not to believe He could work any miracles including bringing one back from death; because it was only rejecting His claim of Divinity that a person could reject Him which shows the depths of blindness of the Pharisees. The core issue which remains the same is the fact that we are all as "filthy rags" ( Isaiah 64:6) and this includes our so called "good deeds".
Abominable: Luke 16:15 shows what men hold as esteemed is an abomination before God. To esteem something shows a sort of prideful mentality; acclaim and praise is something Christ warned about in numerous passages (see Luke 6:26; another passage in this book as one example). Even calling Christ good implies that he as a mere man or prophet is good; and Christ makes it clear only God alone is good ( Mark 10:18). This is what is so dangerous about anyone who men praise; not only do they almost always practice false theology but we are convinced our own righteousness will justify us in the day of judgment.
No wonder Satan appearing as an angel of light fools lost souls ( 2 Cor. 11:14).
Jesus Christ as the Lord is the Lord of heaven so he is heavenly. All the prophets until John served the Son as the double for Jesus Christ. "The law and the prophets were until John."( Luke 16:16)
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,/Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (He.1:1-3). It is of him Moses had warned,"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken."(De.18:15). Moses stood as a stand-in for him. So did every prophet. He is the heir so seven days in the covenant in which seven is a kangaroo word.
The Spirit gives us multiplying of loaves 8:7-9 "And he (Jesus) blessed, and commanded to set them also before them./So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets./And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away." Here we seven baskets of the broken meat which stands as the testimony of the Son to his Father. Generally speaking the command numbers are incorporated in the God document to distinguish which is which. Considering the manner imposter church has let them proliferate shows the enemy is within the house. Jesus would soon clear his house of the Canaanites. "and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of theLordof hosts."(Ze.14:21)
While studying the significance of the command numbers Twelve and Seven respectively their place in the body of Scriptures is to fix the role of the Son as the heir of all things and the Son of man who is the Word become flesh. It is in the latter role whose humanity sets the doctrine of God as the good news since he died and rose again. "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."(He.2:9). So he appointed the twelve in obedience to the Word who was with God.( John 1:1). By healing two, where twelve years are a reminder of the word of God stated in Ge.6:3. As the Word become flesh he obeyed the word of God. Similarly when virtue went out Jesus it was the Spirit's way of reminding that he was anointed for his ministry. He was the Servant-Messiah, fulfilling what was spoken of him by the prophets, "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."(Matt.8:17)
For this reason the Spirit gives us the number of baskets as twelve, which serves as a testimony to God. "And they did all eat, and were filled./And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes."(vv.42-43)
The Holy Spirit tags the entities who made the everlasting covenant as the Father and the Son. Of the latter John says,"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made./In him was life; and the life was the light of men."(John1:3-4). Fulfilling the divine Will of the Father we have the tag Seven which is Perfect number. Seven provisions in the covenant therefore are seven days. Thus when the angel warns "for the hour of his judgment is come" the hour is set in heaven and it is not as we count earth time. Ministry of Jesus is from heaven so what role did all the prophets until John did? ( Luke 16:16)
"And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country." (v.10)
Mark sets Jesus crossing" the other side of the sea into the country of the Gadarenes."The sea mentioned here is the lake of Galilee on the south. Lucan gospel explains the location so we may conclude that Jesus with his disciples arrived there from Galilee. ("which is over against Galilee".-8:26) Gadara is not directly named in the scripture but was a walled city where the Gentiles lived mostly and was a part of the Decapolis. The point of location we need note to our intent and purpose is this: geographically Gadarenes is situated on the east of the Jordan river. Crossing of the Jordan river in spiritual terms signifies death.
Jesus cast out the many demons from the man. They all had a request:"And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
"For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit."/And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many./And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country."(vv.8-10)
Unclean spirits require a body which is impossible for Satan to create. He is the father of lies and not of life. For this reason he used a serpent to beguile Eve and being cast out they had unanimously chose the herd of swine.
"All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."(1 Co.15:38-40). Here we have a country separate from the land of Galilee. In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the latter had a place while Galilee signified the blessed state of the beggar. The other man's riches come in all forms and weights. Sheep, cattle and swines are part contributing to the wealth, and the rich man who wished Lazarus to visit him had chosen his own country. His cry came too late. ( Luke 16:24)
Heresies did not occur happenstance; but their knowledge of good and evil is still where the fall of man left it. Eve let truth given to her aside and let the counsel of the serpent, that seemed better' decide. She let the context determine if it is good or evil. Thus the context of glory of this world has created in them a contextual truth so they serve both God and mammon. If Adam was not trustworthy with the glory and true riches let him as the Parable of the Shred Steward tells,"for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light./And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations./ He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much."( Luke 16:8-11)
"Who is my mother, or my brethren?"
In this passage the Spirit is setting two sets of families each representing the world of the Spirit and of the body. In the former world familial relationship is pendent to the covenant between God and Man, The latter is symbolic of heaven but in keeping with the body formed of the dust, it is the union of dust to dust and ashes to ashes. "For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven."(12:25; Matt.22:30). Resurrection of the dead is restoration of the covenant to its former glory where Power and glory of God renders the Man his throne so "and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."(Re.21:3)
Thus the saying of Jesus refers to the world of the Spirit,"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren./And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."(Matt.23:8-9)
In marriage man and woman leave their parents and they shall be one flesh, "And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?"( Luke 16:12; Ge.2:23)
This was provisioned for in the covenant. In Ge.1:28-29 we are shown what our Father in heaven had entrusted them with His creation. "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." This was entrusted with man in his Son. It is to this God willed and the covenant exists, and as a proof sent his only begotten Son to the world in fulness of time.
As the key verse states there is no gender difference. Only those who do the will of God.
That aside, I would ask you to give thought to these Scriptures: Luke 16:19-31 and Luke 23:39-43. In the Luke 16 account, Jesus gave us a glimpse of life after death (the locations of those were prior to Jesus' Own Resurrection). Here, we read that there was consciousness beyond the grave; their bodies were buried, but they were aware of their situation, of joy or pain, even of concerns.
Then the Luke 23 reference. Jesus gave the repentant thief (hanging on the Cross beside Him), the assurance that at his death, he would join Jesus in Paradise - the place of no pain & real comfort. If people today die & just remain in the grave awaiting the resurrection, then most certainly, those of Jesus' day knew that their spirits would live on in the place of God's appointment for them, while their earthly remains awaited resurrection & final judgement. Sending this for your reading & consideration & for God's Comfort & Assurance to be your daily experience.
Jesus of Nazareth came; in the flesh to fulfill numerous prophecies from the Old Testament of the Messiah to come; yet most didn't believe. This is inclusive of His own family members; the Pharisees and Saducees; and at times attitudes from His own disciples.
Eventually after He was risen the stupor was lifted at least for those who He had called and chosen. (see John 1:11; John 7:4-5).
In assessing the situation with the very real parable of Lazarus and the unnamed rich man; the very clear reality is shown that even if one was to rise from the dead they wouldn't believe ( Luke 16:31). This was proven by the soldiers and the concocted tale of how the body of Christ was stolen while they slept ( Matthew 28:13). It would be expected that the supernatural signs with the sun and moon during the Crucifixion would have been enough to convince everyone what had just happened; but we see similar things during the plagues in Revelation; yet the unregenerate in the end will attempt to fight Christ upon His return after hiding from Him during the sixth seal judgment.
Thus; the Holy Spirit is hidden from the world. Much as Christ's acts were recognized; many would not understand that He was indeed the Son of God. Some; as the Pharisees would blaspheme stating that the source was Beelzebub which prompted the warnings of Mark 3:29. Others such as the crowds being fed or those being healed were caught up with having their stomachs filled or earthly ills relieved; and as we see in Luke 17:11-19 only one of ten lepers comes back to Christ to worship Him after being healed. The rest followed Christ's instructions technically to go show themselves to the priests to affirm healing but weren't giving priority to the Messiah over Levitical law. This speaks to us on how we should not have fear to authenticate what are genuine healings as opposed to false ones which sadly are commonplace today.
Jesus in His teaching on this (& this account was not a parable as it does not meet the definition of a parable) is found in Luke 16:20-31, showing that the spirit of man must go somewhere. In the OT economy, where Hades was that temporary residence of departed souls till the Cross, Jesus still taught that there was consciousness in the after-life & also places of rest & waiting and also of torment. And Jesus was giving a real view of life beyond the grave, or else by naming people & places, He was just a deceiver. Jesus never did that; all His parables were without specifics, just everyday situations to which there was a special meaning. Luke 16 is not a parable but a view of the after-life - and He should know.
"Hell is a finality.", you wrote. No, Hell & Heaven are only the beginning. Our lives on Earth are but a quick snapshot of time compared to an everlasting existence, whether in God's Presence or in torment. And finally, you stated a good question, "Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!" What Jesus was teaching here is that the departed spirit can still feel agony, just as there can be joy & celebration (e.g. Luke 15:10). The spirit of this 'rich man' wasn't thirsty for even a sip of water - he was in torment, & sought comfort, ANY comfort, to relieve him of his agony. Would any amount of water have helped him - I seriously doubt it, but our earthly comparison to this would be, "a drowning man will clutch at a straw" to try & save himself, & would fit the Luke 16 account. And the rich man even pleaded that his brothers would be warned now while still alive, lest they come into such an awful place. So the actual fundamental question remains is: since the Word of God is replete with accounts of the awfulness of a Christ-less eternity, are we going to take the warnings given in it as just a story/a parable/a fable or believe in Jesus & the apostles' words?
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not MOSES and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way they (the church) call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers; believing ALL THINGS written in the LAW and the PROPHETS.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came many unto him in his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM of GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses,and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Most don't believe ALL THINGS written in MOSES and the PROPHETS.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this honoru hath all his saints.
Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgements (administered by the saints) are in the earth (second resurrection), the world WILL LEARN righteousness.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world SHALL REMEMBER (when they are resurrected and judged by the saints) AND TURN (repent) unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Isaiah 66:24 And they (the saints) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their (the saints) WORM shall not die; neither shall their (the saints') FIRE be quenched, and they (the saints) shall be and abhorring to all flesh.
Job 25:6 And much less man, that is a worm?and the son or man WHICH IS A WORM.
Psalms 22:6 .... But I am a worm .....
Mark 9:46 Where their WORM dieth not, nor is the FIRE quenched.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 13:34 ... and without a parable he spake he not unto them......
The whole word of God is Christ speaking.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will open my DARK SAYINGS of the harps (his people)
God Bless you
Luke 16:19-31 was a common PARABLE of that time. Jesus was using it as a TEACHING lesson. And, by the way, this Lazarus in the story is not the same Lazarus that Jesus raised from the dead.
In no way, was Jesus saying the dead suffer in a state of torment. Also, by your reasoning, how exactly can a disembodied spirit be thirsty? How can a disembodied spirit feel pain? Impossible!
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
(Part 2):
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
2 Timothy 2:15
James 2:
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
May we be intercessors in CHRIST name, Isaiah 59:16, for those who have been blinded by the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.
We are called to stand in the gap for others, Ezekiel 22:30, and plant the seed of the word that others may water and that GOD will give the increase.
Acts 15:
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Salvation is by faith in CHRIST alone.
GOD bless everyone!
vv.14-17
"And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul(v.17).
The covenant that Jonathan and David enter into concerns two houses, of Jonathan and David respectively, soul of each being knit as one. The Spirit has set them signifying the role of the soul of man which is a presence establishing truth written in his inward parts. There is no excuse the rich fool in the Parable did nothing to be rich towards God. Now Jonathan has precognition as to the role David was to play. He is also aware that his father had lost it all.'And theLordbe with thee, as he hath been with my father'.
In the min-max narrative mode every covenant a believer makes with Jesus Christ and accepting him as the Savior Lord conforms to the covenant of God made with the Son.(Ps.2:7-8). As discussed in the post titled School of Prophets a prophet is appointed by God and when he spoke of judgment it was valid for specific as well as for the Final judgment. The reason is simple: the eternal word is settled in heaven.(Ps.119:89) and it applies specifically to Jesus Christ.For thetestimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.(Re.19:10-NKJV) " For this reason prophets from Abraham ('for he is a prophet'-Ge.20:7)to John ( Luke 16:16) are like series regardless of time and place takes us to the Day of the Lord. "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people./Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice(Ps.50:4-5)".
Jonathan is a stand-in for soul to which David signifies the Son. In eternity the body of Christ the church has only one Law and,- Zion is the soul of New Jerusalem; and Psalm of Asaph sings,'Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined(Ps.50:2; Is.2:3).
I didn't say I was of the Universalist religion, I said I'm a universalist because I believe that God will Save all His creatures at His appointed time. Furthermore, when you say things like "mainstream Christian religions" I'm glad I'm on the other side of them because, James 3:1; in other words preachers and teachers will receive a more strict Judgment. Thus, if a preacher or teacher gets something wrong AND teaches it, that misinterpretation will lead them into sin and that teacher will receive a portion of all those sins
Nothing "diminishes" Christ's Work, if a person doesn't understand something, does that misunderstanding somehow nullify that which is misunderstood? If a man doesn't understand what Christ did, it takes away NOTHING from Christ; that misunderstanding takes away from the one who misunderstands and for that we must pray.
I'm glad you brought up eternal punishment. Why does God punish? Answer: for correction. God doesn't abuse, He corrects. Hell is not Eternal, I've shown this but, I'll show you more! We should all know of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16:19-31. We can see that the rich man (Jew) went to hell and begged Abraham to help him, but Abraham said that he couldn't! Now, add to this the other half of The Message, 1 Peter 3:19-20. You see, Christ went to MINISTER to souls in hell (prison) for He is a Savior, ALWAYS and FOREVER! And, He is still down their Saving souls. To "put it together" a Jew dies unbelieving of Christ, hell is the result. The Jew asks for help from Abraham and is denied. Now, a person who knew of Christ but never Fully gave in to Him (false Christian, maybe), is also in hell and now they are in torment and in a final desperate PLEA call out to Christ Jesus! Psalms 139:7-12. And He Saves in front of all in there, truthfully, do you think the people there will be calling to their idols? Or, will they Cry Out to Christ? Instant Conversion to The Truth! Think about it, He is a WONDERFUL GOD!!!!!!
From the context 'And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him(4:15b) it is more making Cain as the one 'most likely to succeed',- and in this sense he fits with the shrewd servant in the Parable of Jesus. "For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. / I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.( Luke 16:8-9-NIV)."
The Spirit disposes of Cain and takes up a new narrative in vv.25-26. This leads us to the generations of Adam proper. This alternative Genealogy carries all who would press into the nation built entirely out of the people of light. Thus the entire narrative from the separation of light from darkness (Ge.1:4) is about two nations of light and of wrath.
The genealogy in ch.5 has this peculiar construction.
For example vv.3-4
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:/
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
In his own likeness prefaces Seth who is a double for the Son; he is called to be the heir of inheritance among children in light. The rest are consigned after the likeness of man.
Spirit Steadfast With God
"And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God."(v.8)
Here the Spirit is speaking of the Fellowship of God, a Spirit with Man. What holds them together which is what Law here signifies so testimony of Jacob is same as testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophesy. In the prayer of Jesus speaks, 'Sanctify them (his disciples) with truth; thy word is truth." ( John 17:17)
this Word is the truth, the Law basis for the kingdom of God. The Word became flesh and in his human likeness he made manifest Truth as doable. "I am the truth." Spirit of Christ before the Advent is what the Holy Spirit refers here. Speaking of the nation of Israel their fathers were a stubborn and rebellious generation as they would do to the man sent from God. They denied him, In short we see the rebellious spirit of disobedience evolving generations after generations along with this part of the creation account. "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"(Ge.2:4) God separated light from darkness which creates generations after generations of children of wrath whose spirit was not steadfast with God. So in the Psalm what do their fathers ask? "Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?"(78:20). Now they want prosperity! Children want toys that rattle and that come with colors and shapes. Similarly babes in Christ want jingle of material wealth. These are 'other man's riches' as Jesus would say. ( Luke 16:11-12)
Here we have Luke 16:19-31, a passage where there seems no other Scripture in the Bible that lends support/complements it, with such graphic detail. In your application of the principles you've suggested, what would you do with such a passage in Luke 16, when there is no other related teaching or other verses? The choices I see are: accept what Jesus spoke, as a one-off account of life after death pre-Cross; rewrite the verse to bring it into line with other verses that speak of the after-life; or, reject the passage altogether & read it as just another story/parable of Jesus that isn't intended to describe a real-life event.
To use your principle, that there 'must be other Scriptures relating to each other so as to form a belief/doctrine', I would reject that passage & never refer to it at all. I wouldn't even quote it as a parable, as it doesn't fulfil the definition of a parable. Therefore, not wanting to take such a drastic action, I'm forced to do something else with the passage; and that 'something' is to accept Jesus' Words as Truth & the events declared as real, since I won't accept that Jesus was intentionally deceptive when speaking about the fate of certain people for the purposes of a sharing a story/parable. But you're right about a 'divergence of doctrines by the churches'; just look at the LDS Church & 1 Corinthians 15:29: this is an example of a major departure from the Truth.
However, with the Luke 16:19-31 account I simply cannot accept it as a 'non-literal historical event'. You mention that "no one in the grave has eyes to see or a mouth to speak". It is true, that the deceased's physical eyes & mouths have long been destroyed in the grave, yet in the spiritual realm there still remains a consciousness, for the spirit of man cannot die. Now whether those three mentioned in Hades (under the OT economy) had physical members or not is not mentioned, but that a conversation took place. Now, if these figures in Hades were only presented as a story "to teach some aspect of the Gospel", then wouldn't it be very wrong of Jesus to name them & place them?
Look at any of the parables of Jesus (e.g. the Sower, the Tares, the Hid Treasure, the Ten Virgins, the Rich Fool, the Lost Sheep, etc.). Do any of them give the names or even the exact locations where the events took place? So a parable's definition is not just the Truth that Jesus wanted to impart to the people (a Truth that generally they could not perceive, therefore the need of 'story-telling'), but a parable had to meet this other criterion (of not naming people or places), or else it wasn't a parable. The Luke 16 account was an actual event told by Jesus as He claimed that Abraham & Lazarus were there in the Hades portion of comfort. If this were not true, then I would have to admit to Jesus being deceptive, when He could just as easily have shared a similar Truth without resorting to names of actual people & places. The lesson learned from this does conform to the message of a parable, but the actual event is real, unlike other of His parables.
Now the account of Simon the Leper, also in Bethany, occurred very near to the Passover Feast ( Matthew 26:2). And we know this to be so, because after the woman's anointing of Jesus in Simon the Leper's home, Jesus' disciples were annoyed at the waste of this ointment, & Judas Iscariot then left them to put into effect his wicked act. And of course, Jesus then celebrates the Passover with His disciples at the appointed time. So the Lazarus (in John 11) & Simon the Leper (in Matthew 26) can't be the same person and of course it would have saddened Lazarus (& others) tremendously that he who died because of some sickness & was raised by Jesus, yet wasn't healed of his leprosy.
As well, the account of the rich man & (the other) Lazarus ( Luke 16:19-31) is understood to have happened after the Lazarus (of John 11) was raised to life, not before. A synopsis of the Gospels shows that after Jesus began His journey towards Bethany, He also ministered along the way ( Luke 13:22 to Luke 17:1-10). After this, Jesus arrives in Bethany to see the lifeless body of his friend.
Hi David0921. Just to touch on some of the points in your recent several comments.
Referring to Romans 3: Yes, it is a chapter of mankind's sinful condition, hence it was not written TO ALL mankind, but ABOUT ALL mankind. So, if all mankind lies in sin, how does God seek to remedy that disease? We know that it can only be through Christ, but where we differ is that you believe that Christ's Blood availed for those OT sinners while they were still alive. My belief: that Christ's Blood availed for them & us, ONLY after the payment for sin was completed.
Hades. 1 Corinthians 15:55 only speaks about 'death & the grave'. Looking at the Greek, for both those words, 'thanatos' is given & not Hades. So 'death & the grave' are understood as only that: 'death as confined to the grave'; no Hades here, a word which refers to an actual hell of spiritual confinement.
Then to the passages I shared, to which you wrote that 'none of them support OT believers going to a place called Hades at death'. For sure, most of those references just spoke about a very real place called Hades, to which I was drawing your attention to the fact that there is a name Hades. But when Jesus spoke of Abraham & Lazarus also being there, this is where "we (must) compare scripture with scripture using the principles that God lays down in His Word" (your quote). If we then disregard Luke 16:19-31 in its entirety, then we do great disservice to God's Word & our understanding of (for example, Hades) then becomes skewed. Onto Page 2.
Here are some Scriptures for you that speak about Hell (Hades, as opposed to Gehenna or Tartarus): Matthew 11:23, Matthew 16:18; Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, Revelation 6:8, Revelation 20:13,14. Yes, Hades is a very real place where the dead pre-Cross went, both the righteous & unrighteous. And they had to go there when they died, for the Work of the Cross was not completed & their salvation was not secured. Only the shed Blood of Jesus could save them & us - they had to wait for it & their release from Hades.
The picture of mankind in Romans 3 (of Jew & Gentile) tells us that all are sinners & that circumcision or the Law gave no profit to the Jew. Only the "faith of Jesus Christ" & by His Redemptive Work can a sinner be justified by faith. I see nothing in this chapter about the "Salvation of OT Believers" - only of 'faith vs the law', for instruction to the Church in Rome, and by extension, believers beyond them in space & time.