Discuss Luke 21 Page 3

Psalms 28, Isaiah 40:29, Psalms 138:3, Psalms 140:7, Psalms 46:1, Psalms 19:14,

Psalms 34:19

Luke 21:12-15, context Luke 21, Matthew 10:16-20, context Matthew 10, Mark 13:9-11, context Mark 13,

Luke 12:8, 2Timothy 3:12, Romans 8:22-39

Hopefully these strengthen you

It is interesting; I have never considered the same overcoming statement is for all the churches mentioned. There appears to be a qualifier with the Thyatira church as to keeping WORKS until the end; for they will have power over the nations. It seems to me that only a sector of the entire church of true believers has the privilege to rule as "kings and priests". Clearly there is a specific crown for martyrdom and other virtues of those who are longsuffering. Some on the other hand such as Smyrna may make it "as though through the fire" ( 1 Cor. 3:15) so that the second death itself can be averted. There are some who don't seem to find a difference in the "Bema Seat" judgment and the Great White Throne Judgement. Eschatologically speaking the Millennium is to be taken seriously. Still; as believers the whole issue of reward sometimes seems underappreciated (except for the wrong emphasis with the prosperity preachers). ( Heb. 11:6).

What is also noteworthy here is that the overcomer is involving certain individuals within each church; in other words only a subset of the "professing" believers are "possessing" ones of the Holy Ghost. This should stand as a stern warning so that we may do as 2 Cor. 13:5 states that we should "test ourselves to see if we are in the faith". Fruit must be in our lives that show that we are truly saved. We must also make sure that our garments remain unspotted from the world ( Rev. 3:4 and elsewhere). It could be argued that those whose garments are stained may not make it in the rapture; and some have to get purified then. That assumes the rapture is a reward issue ( Rev. 3:10; Luke 21:36). If it isn't then we can certainly say that most believers aren't praying that too often. Or; alternatively we could assume that if anyone IS a true believer they will wake up in time to hear the spiritual alarm bells that His coming is near.

Agape; Rich P

Romans 12:12, Acts 6:4, Hebrews 13:15, 1 Thessalonians 5:17,

John 17, James 1, James 2,

Matthew 5:23,24,44, Matthew 6:5-34, Mark 11:24, Luke 18:1-14, Matthew 17:15-21, Mark 9:17-29,

Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21:36,

Hope these are helpful

@GiGi & Duncan: Thanks for responding.

However, Jesus talked about how bad people would become in the last days. ( Luke 21:8-28) It's just like Sodom and Gomorrah out there. And Paul talked about it too. ( Romans 1:18-32)

Don't cha know that quoting scripture is the new Hate Speech????? People want to sin and not feel bad about it. These people have been given over to a reprobate mind and their hearts are hardened. Everything evil is considered good, and everything good is considered evil. They don't want to hear the Gospel. Meanwhile, the Christ-deniers are setting themselves up to be the good guys. Millions of people are being deceived.

All we CAN do is pray for people, 'cause talking to them is like talking to a brick wall. So if I don't warn someone in person & verbally- am I still responsible??: "his blood will I require at thine hand".

Baker,

The Euphrates is drying up this very moment, and will be ready for the kings of the east to cross over, too invade Israel, Ezekiel 38, at the sixth trumpet, Luke 21:20-24. There are many articles, video about the Euphrates, look it up. It is not simply symbolic because it will happen on earth, and is happening right now. That alone should strengthen your faith in God. If purely symbolic, why would God have us be Watchman, observing the signs of the times, if there is nothing to see?

"Satan and the locust armies are thrust upon the scene" is at the fifth trumpet, Revelation 9:1-11. I spy the fifth trumpet allegory when America attacked itself and rushed off the kill those without the seal of God in their foreheads (Muslims). If these are indeed the end-times, then all of the signs should reveal themselves in broad daylight. Knowing the narrative inside and out is critical.

The saints are sealed before the sixth trumpet, not the fifth.

It is the man of sin, anti-christ, who places the abomination of desolation at the sixth trumpet. You said it well with your allegoric slain dragon. The sons of Joseph are going to experience 539 BC again. All of Babylon's plagues come in one day, Revelation 18:8. It is similar to one that languishes from the effects of radiation, baldness and clean teeth.

Signs of Rapture Part 2

Principle 2: Prophecies related to Second Coming and/or the Rapture.

I would say that despite there being no clear prophetic event showing the date of the Rapture; there certainly are signs of it's imminency; as stated before largely related to the state of the church today. If we are not producing the "salt and light" ( Matthew 5:13-14) that we should then we shouldn't be surprised when the secular society we live in falls apart. I have stated before as well that the basic lack of respect for a covenant marriage bond and subsequent aftermath of divorce and remarriages with the damage incurred has been a largely successful attempt of Satan to push boundaries further in other areas of immorality. As I discussed with someone in church today; the fear of God is something that causes conviction of the nonbeliever if indeed we are walking in the Spirit of God. If we refuse to honor Holiness in our personal lives and create a God (or Christ) in some dumbed down version suiting our imaginations then we are not going to even deserve the blessing of being persecuted and forfeit any resulting reward. Just how far we have gone or whether or not it is actually possible for any large scale revival or repentance is something only God knows.

There are parables relating to the profitable vs. unprofitable servant; and the wise and unwise virgins that at first glance appear to reference the Rapture; but also may have some application for the Second Coming. Since BOTH events are getting closer to appearing we should of course expect that most have reference to both. That gets me into point 3.

Principle Three: Who is actually raptured? Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:36 certainly give us pause to consider if not individuals that are going to be Raptured; the church typifying people that are going to be taken out when He comes for His bride. The question of whether it is a reward or salvation issue is worth investigating.

Ezekiel 44, Ezekiel 44:2-3, possibly the prophecy for Luke 19:28-48, Luke 21, notice Luke 21:37, Matthew 21, Mark 11, Notice Mark 11:16, Mark 12 Jesus still in the Temple Mark 13, notice Mark 13:1,3, as noted Jesus went & left, the same direction. John 10:23,

Ezekiel 44:16,17, Revelation 7 note Revelation 7:14,15,

Ezekiel 47:1-10, healing living water, John 7:38, John 4:11,13,14, Matthew 9:35, Fishers, Ezekiel 47:9,10, Jeremiah 16:16, Matthew 4:19, Mark 1:17,

If you look at Ezekiel 1:1,2,3, they were already going into captivity as Prophesied by Isaiah 39:1-7, 2Kings 24:15, Jeremiah 52:31, before Daniel, Ezra & Nehemiah before the return & rebuilding, Ezekiel 48 - end; might have been the divine blueprint for the temple that was rebuilt before Jesus was born

Matthew 1:17

Hopefully these are helpful

How to pray & how to endure through crisis = Luke 22:40, Matthew 6, Luke 11, Romans 8:26-39,

Psalms 139, (remember the guy that wrote that, had to live in caves for a time, while fleeing unjust persecution,) Jesus himself had to encourage himself knowing while everyone else would abandon Him, GOD would not. John 16:32,33,

Mark 14:38, Mark 11:13-26, Luke 21:36, Hebrews 13:3,5,6,

Luke 18, John 14:16,

2Timothy 2:3, 2Timothy 4:5, Matthew 24:13, Romans 8:18,

Hopefully these help you

This Psalm is focusing on those who would be what we call today "atheists." They are said here to do terrible things; as well as go after God's people. Verses 1 and 3 remind us that there is no one who does good. We see this sort of behavior in the end of dispensations of time when "judgment comes to the full" starting in Genesis 15:16; and it continues to the transgressions of Babylon at the end of the 70 years of captivity as well as the time in Revelation in the example of a few instances.

Lest we entertain the tought that this state is only for those who deny that God exists; we surely have to realize the admonitions in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 about those who did not receive the LOVE of the truth. Ultimately; as Romans 1 and Psalm 19 indicate there is enough evidence in Creation that men are without excuse; also including evidence of the godhead ( Romans 1:20). We are reminded that because God does not execute judgment right away men get complacent in Ecclesiastes 8:11.

We are reminded here in verse 6 of the treatment of the poor of Proverbs 21:20 where "a fool and his money are soon parted." Some; thankfully will repent when humbled enough; sadly others not as Revelation makes all too clear. The last verse once again looks forward to the salvation of the nation of Israel; related to the last days return of His people. Israel for now is far nationally from repentance; and it won't fully repent and come to the true Messiah until the Lord is returning ( Zechariah 12:12 and surrounding verses). Let us all test our hearts to make sure that we are worthy to escape all the things that are to come to pass and to stand before the Son of Man ( Luke 21:36 see also Rev. 3:10).

Thanks Giannis.

That's the way I have it as well.

On the Matthew 24:31-46 I think I was responding to Gigi.

Her quote;

By GiGi

The most consistent view in the church over the centuries was that the rapture happens on the Last Day, as Jesus said in Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:29-31. Even Daniel was told that he would arise on the Last Day in Daniel 12:13. This is why I believe that Jesus comes back only once again and will gather believers to Himself on the Last Day.

End quote.

My point was that Matthew 24 was not about the rapture.

Those taken away are gathered for judgment.

She's rapturing the wrong group!

Some say that the tribulation is a time of testing for God's people. Who and what is being tested? God's grip?

We must consider these verses. John 10:28-29.

I John 4:4.

Matthew 28:20.

John 14:18-20.

Ephesians 3:30.

Jude 1:24-25.

Philippians 1:6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST:

So it's obvious God is not testing a spirit filled vessel.

TRIBULATION.

This is mentioned in Daniel 12 where a specific time period is mentioned and Jesus confirms it in Matthew 24:15-21. This tribulation is to come upon the whole world. This is not the persecution ( By the world ) promised to the Church in Matthew 5:10 and other places.

There's a huge difference between persecution by the world and tribulation ( UPON ) the world.

Millennium.

Where does Christ thousand years reign here on earth fit in their theology?

My reason for asking is they are split in this view.

If you say the rapture comes after the tribulation and you use Matthew 24 to authenticate that, When is the thousand years reign of Christ here on earth?

Why would you rapture people out of the Millennium?

Some hold the view the Millennium has already begun and the Church will usher in the Millennium by preaching the Gospel.

They say there is no rapture.

Continue this weekend.

God bless.

There are two tribulation's in the end times, The tribulation of Satan, and The Tribulation of Christ, which is The Day of The Lord, The Day of Wrath, The Day of Vengeance Luke 21:22 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who is

able to stand?" Revelation 6:17

The word STAND in the verse is asked as a question for a reason, asking Who will make the First Resurrection as it does in Psalms 1:5 where the ungodly will not.

If a person believes Jesus was commanded by his Father to establish the following doctrine, then they must obey the command:

"...if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

Matthew 5:23-24 KJV

If a person does not want to obey the preceeding command, they must present a compelling argument against it.

"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."

Luke 21:15 KJV Crown copyright in the United Kingdom

Hi Gigi.

Part 3.

Again I'm not saying this researching is bad but when you build your theology off historical research you will find that there is arguments for both sides and often for several sides on every topic.

It's not the way we're prompted to study the Bible.

There's a danger you will fall in the hands of doctrines of men and traditions.

There is more to teaching the Bible than reading scripture and giving a perspective that you adopted from researching history throughout the church age because it don't cause you to understand scripture!!

It hinders spiritual growth and causes one to have a carnal approach in their display of doctrine and misuse of scripture no matter how long they study this way.

When or if one research history for "whatever" concerning doctrine, revelation of truth is always given by the Holyspirit not by the scribe.

So be sure and use convincing scriptures when you go into a debate or rebuttal saying ones view is not supported by scripture.

This is not about whether you are right or wrong because even when you are right about a matter you authenticate it by what you "believe" was taught by the early church as your reasoning. That doesn't always seal the deal when your explanation and rebuttal doesn't go into debth using scripture. It's just argumentive.

With that being said let's look into the scriptures you provided supporting the rapture coming at the second coming.

Luke 21:27.

Matthew 24:29-31.

Daniel 12:13.

When dealing with Luke and Matthew "Notice who's being removed" In Matthew 24:37-39 it says "as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Who's eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

AND KNEW NOT UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME, AND TOOK THEM ALL AWAY?

This speaks of judgment, it's not the rapture of the Church.

This contradicts

1 Thessalonians 5:2-9.

see part 4.

Hi Gigi

Part 1.

You stated.

Hello Patrick, What you are identifying is "dispensationalism", and yes, IT HAS NOT BEEN TAUGHT THROUGHOUT CHURCH HISTORY. (You can search ONLINE) on the subject. You can find on the site testallthingsDOTcom articles concerning this viewpoint that introduced the pre-tribulation rapture into Christian thought in the 1800's by Irwin and Darby in Ireland. Irwin learned of it from the writings of a Jesuit priest from Spain.

Then you stated on a separate post.

IT IS TRUE THAT THERE WERE SOME IN THE EARLY CHURCH WHO BELIEVED IN A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE.

The most consistent view in the church over the centuries was that the rapture happens on the Last Day,

( You seem to contradict yourself in your rebuttal.)

Then you went on to say;

" as Jesus said in Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:29-31. Even Daniel was told that he would arise on the Last Day in Daniel 12:13." Let's set that aside for now.

I believe scripture supports this and the early Church taught this throughout history; "as you seem to acknowledge to some degree."

Where part of the issue is during the reformation their wasn't much focus on eschatology. Their focus was on Justification. "And by the way they done a great job on that,"

But some accused the jews for the crucifixion even though Christ said for this purpose he came into the world.

Here's the issue.

There's some value in areas to research what the church believed throughout the centuries but when you leave off from studying the Bible and you use history to settle a debate you don't fall on solid ground.

That may work in our academic school system on history but not so well when studying the Bible, Especially when you have the same bible they had in your midst and the Holyspirit doing the teaching.

This method doesn't qualify one as a teacher but an historian.

Martin Luther protested for Justification by faith in the early 1500's. before then what was widely taught? Is it good to hold those diverse views?

c part 2.

Chris,

It is true that there were some in the early church who believed in a pre-tribulation rapture. The most consistent view in the church over the centuries was that the rapture happens on the Last Day, as Jesus said in Luke 21:27; Matthew 24:29-31. Even Daniel was told that he would arise on the Last Day in Daniel 12:13. This is why I believe that Jesus comes back only once again and will gather believers to Himself on the Last Day.

Polycarp and Irenaeus may have spoken in regards to a pre-trib rapture, but the modern view in dispensationalism as promoted by Darby and Scofield are not identical to what Polycarp and Irenaeus taught. The interpretation of Darby is what is promoted and believed by many believers today. His theory began in the 1800's.

Revelation 6:12-17 Sixth seal.

If indeed there was praise everywhere as stated after the Rapture in Revelation 5:13 there wasn't anymore. Fear was apparently for all members of society (v. 15) when they tried to hide in vain in the caves of the earth from God and Christ's wrath. For those who would say that this is a parallel passage to the bowl judgments or trumpet judgments are not dividing the Word very carefully. By the bowl judgments men are trying literally to fight against Christ; and are continually blaspheming His name; making no attempt to veil either their bodies or attitudes from God. The demons have succeeded in total control; no doubt aided by the intoxicating power behind Satan's mark of the Beast.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. ( Prov. 9:10; etc.) Some will learn from this and repent such as seen in Psalm 64:9. There is a time when it is too late however such as in Psalm 18:41-42. That is in God's hands. For some at the sixth seal it probably is too late; all those not in the Book of Life will worship the Beast ( Rev. 13:8) and be damned ( Rev. 19:15).

That will no doubt encompass many who continue in sin even after one third of the earth is destroyed and men are tormented by demons ( Rev. 9:21).

I pray that as this study continues as an unworthy servant to reflect the Spirit of God in my words and to have the strength to undertake discussion of these awful realities which are to come upon the earth. May someone even one soul take it to heart and be led to repentance and may readers be as Jeremiah states in chapter 20 verse 9 that His Word is fire in our bones. The enemy does not want our minds to be opened to see what is shortly to come to pass. The apocalyptic day which is worse than any that was and will come ( Jeremiah 30:7; Mark 13:19; Matt. 24:21) is at hand. May we all have a "reality check" and be ready for His return to escape all these things ( Luke 21:36; Rev. 3:10).

Verses 1 through 5 relate to Sardis; with a rather vague condemnation of works not "perfect" as stated in verse 2. Clearly; sin was involved as the "garments were not stained" who would walk before Christ in white because they are worthy as verse 4 indicates. This would seem to be a subset of those who eventually will overcome as verse 5 indicates. Verse 3 shows that those who don't watch and wait as Luke 21:36 exhorts will have Christ return (probably the rapture) when they don't expect. It would seem that those would be the ones left behind; but still are saved as we note that they have garments but they are defiled. Those unsaved wouldn't be clothed in any spiritual garments. This is of course controversial; but it seems that few will wake up in time for the rapture. The alternative to that is that they will stand at the Bema seat and suffer loss ( 1 Cor. 3:15). One thing is for sure; those who do believe will be martyred and this in large part proves their faithfulness. Some are given white robes in Revelation 6:11; Revelation 7:14 seems to indicate robes made white by martyrdom; however. The question whether robes and garments are the same could be asked. Perhaps the best thing that can be taken here is that we must die to self daily and be ready for martyrdom; which comes largely from not fearing death. Only through the Spirit can we do this! We do well also to heed to ongoing persecutions and pray daily for our brethren.

Next the Philadelphia church and Laodiceans are brought up as polar opposites in many ways.

The theme of "patience" in verse 10 is repeated throughout many N.T. and even O.T. passages as characteristic of those faitfully waiting for the Lord's return going about their business. ( Luke 19:13). Overcomers once again even in this church are promised a future blessing (in this case to sit with Him in His throne). Spuing them out certainly once again sounds like being cast into the Tribulation. Let the reader pray and decide.

Daer Almighty Lord and Creator. You who know about all things. We honor Your Holy Name. We raise this matter to You Lord, You see how hearts tremble for yet another disturbance under Heaven. We pray for those in charge that they choose the just solution. We also pray for the authorities in this matter that they choose the just path and everything according to Your Will God Almighty. We pray that You will give them strength and power to persevere in Justice.

Thank you Lord Jesus for Your word and Your Holy Spirit that You have given us. We will always trust You Lord and love Your community. Thank you for hearing our prayers, Amen. Luke 21:34-38

This is similar to Matthew 10:23 and focuses on the "Gospel of the Kingdom". In that case it will not be preached to all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Given there are comments on some being put to death; speaking in front of Kings; etc. it is claer that this journey went beyond this one ventue; beyond the Resurrection at least until the Apostles were all killed. The sentiment also seems to indicate during the first part of the Tribulation as found in 2 Cor. 12:14 as well as 2 Timothy as evidence of the last days. No doubt the 2 witnesses and probably some of the 144,000 will be witnessing to leaders.

Because of that logic; I would agree as to other scriptures in Thessalonians from the "Pauline" epistles; as well as Revelation itself indicating that there is indeed a rapture at the end of the Age of Grace; once the "restrainer" is removed. ( 2 Thess. 2:6-7).

We need to be aware; as Luke 21:36 states of His return; praying earnestly. This verse about praying to be worthy seems to indicate some indeed are left behind. At the very least; we have crowns to take hold of or lose reward if not remaining faithful as Rev. 3:11 indicates. 2 Tim. 4:8 shows this; and I just realized that Psalm 40:1 before what sounds like the world's reaction to the Rapture (verse 3) seems to show an indication of the merit of us patiently waiting as a cross reference as well. The theme of patience is mentioned throughout the O.T. and N.T.; Proverbs; Romans and Proverbs being just a few examples.

In the Tribulation; once again the Jews wil be prominent in evangelism. The "blindness in part" mentioned in Romans will be lifted ( Romans 11:25). As I state many times; by the sixth seal there will no longer be any atheists ( Rev. 6:16-17). Indeed; the Kingdom coming to earth will be finally realized in short order; after the "parenthesis" which occurred after AD 70; and continued until recent times. Also see Zech. 13:8 as to God's plan for Israel and Jer. 30:7.

Israel was established as a nation in 1948! No pun but your timeline is a bit off! At least 74 years off! There's a few missing links that has to connect that we're embarking upon before the "Second Coming" ie soon rise of the Antichrist taking his platform world center stage bringing his false peacehis mark the RFIDCHIP IN the hand and forehead Rev13:15-18 globally mandated but already here and many have already been deceived into taking it Rev.19:20global martyrdom of true followers of Jesus Yashua that missed the marriage supper of the Lamb! Not all Saints are invited Rev.19:6 the ready remnant raptured 1 Thes.4:13-18 Matt.24:40-42 will be there while the great tribulation is transpiring that the ready Remnant will be spared from! Rev.3:10 Luke 21:36 Not to mention the one world religion ran by the false prophet aka Pope F who already established his headquarters in Dubai to get the ball rolling and already has laws and consequences in place ready for those who violate their "Chrislam" Religion! You see many folk especially tragically the "Saints" don't realize we're a lot further along in Bible prophecy than many folk believe! Luke 12:56 Repent from sin Acts 3:19 after receiving Jesus in your heart and His Holy Spirit (imperative) asking His forgiveness for all your sins loving Him with everything within you and each other as we love ourselves forgiving everyone! He only gives the Holy Ghost to those who OBEY Him! Acts 5:32 Ecc.12:13 1 John 2:4 James 2:10 Let go of the cares of this life ie ungodly people places and things fast pray read His Word daily and spread His Gospel to those who will hear! Don't hold nothing back or there will be eternal consequences and will be held accountable when it's all said and done! Ez.3:18-21 We must be holy and strive for perfection DAILY! If it wasn't attainable or possible He wouldn't have written it! Our brother Job 1:1 proved that! Heb.12:14 1Pet.1:16 Matt.5:48 2 Cor.5:10 1John 3:6-11 Eph.5:27 Offic'ly warndYah bless!

Chris,

I agree with the way you adressed this topic before. I believe you helped break down the biggest most divisive issue, when there is hypocrisy with abuses & blatant unrepented sins, there is accountability. I believe Jesus clearly taught accountability & old testament usually addressed as within Church / temple & leadership within, also: Isaiah 9:17, Matthew 20:1-19, Luke 20:45-47, Luke 11:39-54, Matthew 23, Isaiah 1:17, Isaiah 1, Isaiah 58, Jeremiah 7:1-17, Jeremiah 22:3, Jeremiah 34:8-12 ._..

I believe you Chris or possibly someone else addressed the question we're they ever really saved?

I address this question as to answer the many outside the church who ask because of injustice etc. This site is for those, I believe most of all.

Faith Knight, I also agree with Adam & Chris this is an issue with disagreement. & hesitation is possibly warning. But, I included scripture covering love, meekness in the way, its addressed. John 15:18,24,25, Luke 21:17, Zechariah 13:6,

Count the cost? Luke 14:26-35,

Said in sincerity of Love, through the fellowship of Faith in Jesus Christ

"Once saved always saved" just like the english word "rapture" are not mentioned in scripture per se. There are verses about being sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption ( Eph. 1:13-14). Actually the verse states our inheritance in KJV v. 14.

John 6:39 indicates that Christ will lose none that the Father has given Him. As to the rapture/Resurrection from the dead; we of course can read in Thessalonians and Corinthians on the event. The latin word comes from "rapturo" which means to snatch out; quickly remove.

A fundamental misunderstanding comes when the doctrine of Predestination is ignored in scripture; and God's initiation of salvation based on those of His choosing. Romans 8:30 makes this pretty clear and many other verses; particulary the Gospel of John are helpful (read John 10). Our repentance and sanctification as well as good works are all things the Lord has prepared in His Providence (see Ephesians 2:10). On our end; we are responsible to make a public confession; repent and live a Godly life; but if we attempt to do so without being regenerated we are trying to be saved on our terms. In the flesh; we can do as Judas Iscariot did; who was BTW called and chosen; but predestined to be the "son of perdition" as prophesied in Psalm 41:9. What is known as "decisional regeneration" by those who truly become Born Again must change our avoidance of consequences of our actions to that of a new regenerated heart which loves God. The Lord chastises all He loves ( Heb. 12:6).

These verses sort of fit together. It appears many are left behind to endure the Tribulation who were either tares or perhaps who thought they were saved. If they are to be saved; they will endure martyrdom and finally produce fruit to "make their garments white". Whether that includes backslidden believes now; I can't give a certain answer. We should all keep Luke 21:36 in mind as certainly all believers aren't in that mindset today. Agape; Rich P

Verse 7, is the meat and potaroes of the book of revelation. Now look how verse 7 starts out "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him", this is very important, it's like GOD knew people would take this out of context in future chapters and verses.

Here are some references ( Acts 1:9-11, Rev 1:7, Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:13&14, Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28)

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Notice:

"and a cloud received him" and "so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven".

Sounds a lot Rev 1:7

What are you all's thoughts?

I woke up on Jan 2014, and felt compelled to study the book of Revelation. And prior to that I have never read the bible all the way through, just bits and pieces, and rarely go to church, but I got saved & baptized when I was around 10 give or take.

So I started studying revelation on my own, and I believe that GOD has been guiding me. I started reading revelation, but didn't quite understand it to much. And I felt compelled to go on youtube and do some research. So I did, and listened to quite a few pastors talk about revelation, but what some of them where saying, just didn't seam to coincide with what I had read in revelation, even though I really myself didn't quite understand it. But something kept tugging on my heart. Now when I started this studying, I went into it with an opened mind, but I always knew GOD was a GOD of "order" and keeping things simple.

So I finally came across a pastor on youtube preaching & teaching revelation. And I felt with my heart that I found the right pastor that GOD evidently wanted me to find, but it took a while.

So anyway, I felt like my eyes have been opened up, and now I'm beginning to understand the bible a lot better.

From what I understand now as in ( Acts 1:9-11, Rev 1:7, Rev 6:12-17, Rev 7:13&14, Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28) kinda puts the rapture in the middle of the so called 7 year tribulation.

I would like your opinion,

Have a blessed day.

Thanks,

Doug

Hi Lenny. From Matthew 1:17, we see the writer allocating fourteen generations between Abraham & David, then another fourteen from David to the Babylonian captivity, and then a further fourteen from the Captivity to Christ.

These are not generations of years/timeline, but generations of families. In other words, if we tried to count the years between each person/event, we would find that there isn't any correlation between them. The first set of fourteen covered approx 1000 years; the second set, approx 400 years; and the third set, nearly 600 years. So we can't use a timeline to predict a possible fourteen generations after Christ. And even if we tried to do so, what families would we use, since after the dispersion & inter-mingling between Israelis & the world, it would be impossible to ascertain any Jewish generation? The only generation that matters to the Lord are those who have been 're-generated' & are now the children of God through His Son Jesus Christ. We can't apply another fourteen generations to this age (post-Cross/Pentecost) - we are those who look up, knowing that our "redemption/coming of the Lord draweth nigh." ( Luke 21:28; James 5:8).

Anita,

Many people have tried to set dates on when Christ will return, and when the 7-year tribulation will begin. If your calculations are correct and this year passes by and the tribulation has not begun, then what? Do we set a different date? Many people in the past have set dates on the return of Christ, and those dates passed by with nothing happening. Are we even supposed to be setting dates on Christ's return?

If I may share this with you, in Matthew 24:34, it says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." People have taken the word generation and some have said that a generation is 40 years, some say 70 years, and some say 120 years, and then they predict a date on when Christ will return, and those dates have come and gone. You have put 80 years from May 11, 1949 as the date Christ will return.

Well, the problem with that is that this word generation has no association with years at all. The word generation means race or kind of people. GENEA is the word, and it means a race or kind of people.

GENEA has nothing to do with years. It is a race or kind of people. Basically, what Jesus is saying here, is this kind or race of people, (the Jews), shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled. They are His elect. They are His protected people, His chosen people, and He will fulfill His promises to them.

Here is something to consider about when the Fig Tree Generation will begin and end.

While it is true that Israel was proclaimed to be a nation by President Truman on May 14,1948; it is important to realize that Israel was not considered to be a sovereign state by the rest of the world until the United Nations recognized Israel to be a nation one year later on May 11, 1949.

Therefore, the Fig Tree Generation did not formally begin until May 11, 1949, which would mean the year Christ will return to earth to rule for 1,000 years would be 2029.

We can look for the 7 year tribulation to begin later this year in 2022, more than likely in September around the Feast Of Trumpets (at the end of the current Shmetah Cycle), or in October around the Day Of Atonement.

I'm not so much sure if it's birth pangs, although you could be correct, Sheila.

Once the rapture happens, the tribulation does begin but it progressively gets worse if we follow the prophetic events in the Holy Bible. For example -- the anti-Christ may not rise up for a few years until after the tribulation begins but one of the early condemnations will be the mark of the beast (condemnation for those left behind and take it).

There's a slight contrast in the events which precede the rapture and which precede the 2nd coming (as they're not similar events or the same as some claim).

No signs precede Rapture. ( 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3)

Signs precede Second Coming. ( Luke 21:11,15)

Many terrible things will happen in the midst of the tribulation and there will be earthquakes, war and overall unrest. Some things of read you in Revelation are some of the most terrifying to be known. Israel's role too if you contrast between the pre-tribulation rapture & the 2nd coming:

Israel is persecuted during the Tribulation. Two-in-three Jews in Israel are killed. ( Zechariah 13:8-9)

Israel is regathered. ( Jeremiah 23:5-8)

World famine, pestilence, war and sorrow follow the Rapture. ( Matthew 24:6-10; Luke 17:31)

World peace follows Christ's Second Coming when He reigns from Jerusalem ( Isaiah 11:6)

Thank you, this verse seems clear also.

Hey George, I just want to share some verses with you. But first, Luke 21 and Mark 13 are parallel passages of Matthew 24. I would think that most people would agree, though there are differences between the three chapters mostly because each account of the same Olivet discourse was witnessed by 3 different disciples so each one would write of the discourse from their viewpoint being led of the Holy Ghost.

Secondly, I do not see anywhere in John 14 the teaching of a pre-trib rapture. I see where Jesus will come for us and we be with him forever but I do not see a timeline, the hour that he comes for us.

Matthew 24:29-31, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the son be darkened, and the moon shall to give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I Thessalonians 2:15-16, For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with hem in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

II Thessalonians 2:1-3, Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,a nod by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

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