Christ's ultimate sacrifice: Primary purpose was to do God's will.
In studying Christ's death on the cross and the resulting salvation of our souls it is no small thing to focus attention and time on such a matter on a regular basis. At least from our perspective the meaning to us personally must be considered with all due reverence for how He took us from death to life. John 17:6-8 makes clear that God was the one who gave Christ all the ones who were to be saved. The following verses ask for unity among them all; and to be in the world but not of it (in general). These verses prayed during His agony in Gethsemane are the summation of much of the earlier chapters in John clearly showing that God was the one who predetermined (predestined) all those who would be saved and hear His voice as His sheep.
However you slice it; there are some who will and will not come to Christ. Also God knows ahead of time who these people are so therefore certainly could have designated ahead of time who would be sheep and who would be a goat; who would be wheat and who a tare; etc. In other words; it wasn't up to Christ to give out any information that could lead someone to the truth in a merely intellectual manner and therefore much of His ministry was spent teaching in parables. Compare Mark 4:12 with Luke 8:12. The lack of insight given so that people can be saved is clear from the first passage; but Satan is used as the agent to blind men's hearts in the second example in Luke of the seed by the wayside.
There are as Deuteronomy 29:29 states some things in the Divine counsel which men are not privy to. Certain things can be searched out; however ( Proverbs 25:2). John 3:16 states that God so loved the world and sent His Son. We should keep in mind here that Christ came first and foremost to do the Father's will. All those called and chosen would be saved EXCEPT for the prophesied son of perdition (see Psalm 69:25; Psalm 41:9; Psalm 109).
"There met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way."
Casting out demons from taking over a person is nothing new. Heart of man is treacherous. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." (Je.17:9-10). The Spirit in dealing with this wants us to remember what Jesus he was there fore. The Evangelist inspired by the Spirit gives us in terms of Prophet Isaiah 'Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."(8:17). Jesus knew the demoniac spirit would not leave him with all his powers at disposal so a legion clamored while he himself did not know how to be himself. How he wanted to follow Jesus after he was healed is what Matthew is laying emphasis on. So 'the two possessed with devils' refer to two personality. This is corroborated by both Mark and Luke versions. According to the fruit of his doings "And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him."( Luke 8:39b)" Jesus searches the heart to give every according to his ways and saw the man could be helped. It was he took over his case and restored him to his family. By the same token the devils were unanimous where they wanted to go." So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine./ And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters."(8:31-32)
The loss of swine was most unspeakable to the city where livestock counted more than men. Our times have no whit improved on the heart most deceitful and desperately wicked at the time of Jesus.
The Superscription can be put this way, "And the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself." Whose seed is in itself makes the tree of life and the trees of righteousness as of one kind. Whose seed is in itself refers to the word of God sown in our hearts about which we hold a spiritual space.
Thus Adam would not find an help meet. He was the double for his Son and his mate had to match bone for bone and flesh for flesh. This understanding is what being based on truth did. God breathed his spirit into his nostrils and his living soul established his world 'in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,'. Now for the verse,
"But for Adam there was not found an help meet for him./And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;"
What does sleep signify? For Jesus here was no doubt with regards to Jairus's daughter. Before he would go in he said, "For the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn."(Matt.9:24; Luke 8:8:49-55) He was there as the Word become flesh but also was in the land of the living where his Father was the God of the living." The same two worlds we are discussing and it's frame of reference is not only the now but also the day decreed for the Son.
When Jesus transfigured before the three disciples he merely showed the two worlds he carried about and it was same for Adam. He carried the same glory so he was naked but felt no shame.(Ge.2:25)
In 2:21 the Spirit speaks of a deep sleep which is not merely his sleep but with reference to the Son for whom he was a stand in. It is for this reason Elisha asked a double portion of his spirit. "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me."(2 Ki.2:9). This is in context of the two worlds. 'Deep' refers to the death of the Son which would occur according to the scriptures in the day decreed for him.
23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
This verse is a sobering reminder that "many are called; few are chosen". ( Matt. 22:14). We are reminded of the verse in Matthew 7:22 when people would claim they did many miracles in His name; but that He never knew them. Verse 24 needs further consideration. For the Father and Son to dwell within us ( John 14:23) we need a heart change; as it were. Without good soil; as it were there can't be fruit production ( Luke 8:15).
For Jesus to "commit himself" to someone means that He deems us acceptable "in the Beloved" ( Ephesians 1:6). Let that sink in; all of our "declarations" of faith; blessings; etc. are meaningless unless He has initiated that covenant; or bond with our souls. Therefore we see many examples of Jesus "weeding out" the crowds and individuals who claimed that they wished to follow Him as a Disciple. Counting the cost is a painful exercise; following Christ means an all or nothing proposition; something not palatable for many; in fact most who would claim to believe. As I have stated in previous posts; Jesus seemed to a large extent to provide food and healings to any who would request it. Yet He would challenge them for the reasons which He could see in their hearts for following Him (such as getting their fill of bread). Except for the few that would clearly come to worship Him and/or give God the glory we cannot be certain who is healed and actually came to true faith ( John 5:14 is a good example of this). Even His own brothers for a time didn't believe in Him ( John 7:5). Further exploration indicates that God must reveal Jesus to a person ( Matt. 16:17). May He enlighten our minds today as we ponder His Word.
To Alex7 - you continue to maintain that "...the good seed is the WHEAT" despite Jesus Christ's own words contradicting what you claim, as stated below:
"Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD." ( Luke 8:11)
Another scripture verse is this that confirms that the word of God represents "seed" and in fact "incorruptible seed":
"Being born again, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, but of INCORRUPTIBLE [seed], by THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever." ( 1 Peter 1:23)
So, my dilemma is do I believe you - who (presumably) is a 'man' who has NOT died and has NOT risen from the dead and has NOT ascended in Heaven - OR, do I believe the words in the Bible spoken by Jesus Christ Himself - supported by the Apostle Peters words also thereby making TWO WITNESSES that agree:
"...In the mouth of two or three witnesses [Jesus and Peter] shall every word be established." ( 2 Corinthians 13:1)
If I was to believe what you wrote, I would then have to say that Jesus Christ is a liar. I couldn't do that.
Given that Jesus Christ has both died, risen from the dead and ascended into heaven according to the scriptures and as both He and the Apostle Peter have affirmed that "THE [incorruptible] SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD", I have to reject your false claims.
In my post that responded to S Spencer, it focussed on the following statement:
QUOTE: "In John 15:2 and especially verse 6, Jesus is very clear that if Christians FAIL to produce unto God the required quantities of "spiritual fruit" expected, God the Father will remove them permanently from Christ. When that happens, John 15:6 says they become "withered" (spiritually) prior to men (or angels - Matthew 13:40-42) later gathering them prior to burning in the Lake of Fire." UNQUOTE
Instead of you addressing this very serious claim associated with Bible-based Salvation, you have chosen to refer to the parable of the Sower and the Seed and presented your "take" on what you believe it represents. I disagree with what you say because you open up your claims by saying:
- "the wheat is a Baby Christ".
There's nothing in the parable that says the "seed" is wheat or the "Baby Christ" as you claim. Jesus Christ's own words in scripture prove your claim here to be false, Alex7:
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God." ( Luke 8:11)
Given that you have this basic understanding of the parable wrong, it is pointless for me to comment on anything else in your reply.
You are replying to a comment by "Bagwill" 5 days ago:
Where in the Bible does it say that it's okay for women to be preachers.
MOUNTHOREB REPLY: Woman can prophecy not new info outside of the scriptures 2 Timothy 3:15-17. However, They preach what they have learned to others outside of the church or congregation. When asked a question about the bible. a woman can reply to anyone who is asking the question. even if it's a man, elder 1 Timothy 3 or someone in authority. but within the church or congregation 1 Timothy 3, a woman does not have authority over a man to speak to the whole church or Congregation 1Timothy 2:11,12,14 (unless there's no men available, if this is the case she covers her head within the congregation to PREACH 1 Corinthians 11:5;16 because of the angels in heaven) however, Outside of the building, yes a woman can teach others outside (family, neighbors etc.) Acts 2:16,17.
Jesus allowed women to speak to him and listen. even sit at his feet and ask questions. he allowed woman to speak and listened to them. and to follow him as he preached. Luke 1:36-38; John 4:7-54; John 11:20-29; John 20:11-18; Acts 1:14; Luke 8:1-3; Luke 10:38-42; Romans 16:1-5; Acts 18:2; Acts 18:24-26;
In marriage: Ephesians 5:21-33
These are all the scriptures I can think of. Revelation 22:17 "Its free"
In Philippians 2:12 Paul advices believers "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
Why fear and trembling? Fear what? Although the meaning of the verse is clear, I would like to point out another fear, not about our salvation but about our heart.
In Jeremiah 17:9, it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We don't really know our heart, we don't know how we are going to act when a temptation comes infront of us, that is why in the "Our Father in Heaven" we ask God to take temptations away from us.
In the parable of the Sower the 2nd and 3rd cases are about people who believed and were saved but still later in their lives they fell out,
Luke 8:13-14, " 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."
In the 3rd case it is very evident of where our heart can lead us if we are not careful in our spiritual life. Jesus said that "where our heart is, also our treasure is" and the opposite "where our treasure is also our heart is" is true. Jesus also asked us to love Him more even than our lives ( Matthew 10:37-39). Why? Because a. He deserves that and b. this will give us the assurance that we will follow Him to the end. If in the midtime we love something else more than Jesus then it is that that we are going to follow and not God, so we will leave our christian course. And that will lead us into trouble.
The resurrection made all things NEW, including your name.
Isaiah 62:2 ...... and thou shall be called by a new name ....
Revelation 2:17 ...and I will give him a white stone, and in that stone a NEW NAME written, which no man knoweth but he that RECEIVETH it.
Revelation 3:12 ...and i will write upon him my new name ...
If you don't YET know your new name, the word of God tells you what that name is.
You were married to Christ by his and your resurrection TOGETHER, the bride takes the name of her husband,
You were baptised in the NAME of Jesus.
There was only ONE BODY raised at the resurrection, and that ONE BODY was given LIFE by ONE SPIRIT.
1 Corinthians 12:27 NOW you are the body of Christ .....
Luke 8:11 .... the SEED is the WORD OF GOD .....
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (YOU), saith the Lord, the words that I (the Father) have put in your (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of your (Christ is the WORD, the SEED) mouth, nor out of thy SEED (your born again by the WORD of GOD----you become SEED) nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED (your are going to bear fruit---SEED), saith the Lord, from henceforth (the resurrection) and forever.
You are the BODY OF CHRIST.
Revelation 19:16 And he had on his vesture and on his thigh (body) written, THE LORD OF LORDS AND THE KING OF KINGS
Revelation 19:13 ...and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD ....
Revelation 1:1 The REVELATION (the revealing) of Jesus Christ .....
Revelation 1:11 .... I AM .... the first (man) ....I AM .... the last (man)
Exodus 3:13 .... I AM that I AM .... I AM hath sent ME to YOU ....
John 17:22 ...and the GLORY that thou has given me, I have GIVEN THEM ....that they may be ONE as we are ONE ...
You were given a NEW NAME, a gift of GOD, by the death and resurrecting of CHRIST.
Matthew 13:30 Let them grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The field is the world, both the seeds of wheat and the seeds of tares are planted together, they grow together and are harvested together, but one goes to the fire and the other to the barn.
During Christ time everyone was associated with farming, today not many know much of anything about farming.
The tares are weeds, yet they also bear seed, the farmer burned the weeds to destroy their seed; so they, the weeds, would not keep multiplying, the wheat is gather into the barn to be replanted and thus multiplying.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.
Christ is the SEED, the SEED (wheat) is gather into the barn and replanted so it will multiply.
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must go again (after your harvested) and prophesy again before many peoples, and nations and tongues.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (the SEED) died anymore (you died with Christ): for they (the SEED) are EQUAL unto the angels; and are the children (the SEED) of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION (you were raised with Christ) ...
the new creation the new SEED.
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (the harvested SEED), saith the Lord (our Father), MY SPIRIT that is upon thee (Christ, the WORD, the SEED, and the WORDS (seed) that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED forever.
The written word; through BELIEF of those written words, BECOMES the LIVING WORD:
The WORD of God is the SEED
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.
John 1:1 In the beginning was THE WORD (the seed), and THE WORD (the seed) was with God, and THE WORD (the seed) was God.
The WRITTEN words are just a WITNESS, of the LIVING WORD.
John 1:14 And THE WORD was made flesh .....
Romans 8:3 God (the Word, the SEED) sending his own son (the WORD, the SEED) as SINFUL FLESH ....
ALL FLESH (the WORD, THE SEED became flesh) died on the Cross with CHRIST: ALL FLESH arose a NEW CREATION (the WORD, the SEED)
Psalms 12:6 The WORDS (YOU, all men; the new creation, by the WORKS of the resurrection) are pure (living) WORDS: as silver TRIED in the furnace of earth (you were first made of dust), purified seven times (this is speaking of the living WORD (YOU) not the written WORD (the letters of the law).
The WRITTEN WORD has to become the LIVING WORD.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible SEED (sinful flesh), but incorruptible, by the (living WORD, made known by the written) WORD OF GOD, with liveth and abideth forever.
Isaiah 59:21 As for me (God the WORD, the SEED), this is my covenant with them (the new creation in Christ, by his resurrection), My spirit that I have put upon THEE (CHRIST), and my (living) WORDS that I have put in thy (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed (the WORD), nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED (the WORD) forever.
Jesus said ye are made clean by the Word I have spoken unto you John 15:3...Was not Mary's fetus.. Infant Jesus the living word spoken unto Mary....Thus she was made immaculate spiritually speaking....As Jesus was the living word spoken unto Mary...I know that Mary offered up 2 turtle doves for her cleansing according to the law....But that was for her past sins...We cannot throw Jesus's words out of the window...When he said you are made clean by the word i have spoken unto you that applied to Mary also....Or anybody that hears his voice as his voice are his words the good seeds that initiate the new birth of Christ in us...Thats y he always refered to himself as the son of man...Simply b/c mankind has to birth a baby Christ in the SPIRIT as that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit....Which is the H.G. that Child of Promise.... Luke 8:21..Who is my Mother and brethren them that hears my Words and keeps them...His seed....When he breathe on them they were impregnated by his breath which was his words, his seeds...Whosoever receiveth one such child in my name receiveth me...That was the great Promise i will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven...Thus the sower and his seed his words his breath....He wants us all to be his Mother....That woman in Rev 12:5.. giving birth to the manchild are the children of Promise are his Mother the Church. ...It was his seed the words of the book, that New Covenant n his blood that impregnated the woman in Rev 12....Thats y Isaiah refers to Jesus as everlasting father....He is gonna father many Children with his seed the words of the book in the Fathers right hand...But they are spirits as that which is born of the spirit is spirit....That are gonna be as the stars of heaven in multitude....Unless ya receive the Kingdom of God as a lil Child you will in no wise enter there in....Thats y he is saying blessed are them that follow me in the regeneration...That Mutiplication of Promise....ok lemme go get some coffee...GBU
Walking in the Spirit (part 8-Discernment of truth vs error).
In further analysis as to the understanding granted to Peter in recognizing that Christ was indeed God in the flesh and not just a great prophet or such we see a principle still holding fast today. That is; those who are truly Spirit filled have surrounding them and within them a foreign righteousness; something that is much like a star viewed from a distance. The light is seen best not directly but indirectly. Christ truly was the Prophet that Moses had predicted; and certainly a great teacher and learned man from his youth up. Only He could; however die for man's sins and thus be the "I am". He had to be both God and man to fill that role.
In preaching the truth; He wouldn't often resort to lengthy scriptural discourses (except for perhaps the Sermon on the Mount).
Much was; in fact hidden to the elite and Pharisees and done purposely so that the wisdom of the world could be proven foolishness to the Lord ( 1 Cor. 3:19). God's purposes cannot be fully understood; but He deliberately keeps those proud in their own righteousness blind ( Matt. 13:15). This parallels as well the parable of the seed which is dropped to the ground and immediately the devil takes it away in Luke 8:12.
It cannot be overemphasized here that our state without Christ is horrendous; and cannot be fathomed. Even in Christ as we see in the scriptures we are children; often entangled in our own messes and always in desperate need of total dependance on God to guide us and protect us from the wiles of the evil one (see the Lord's prayer). This; of course is the opposite of the statement by Benjamin Franklin who supposedly said that "God helps those who help themselves" and BTW this is NOT in the Bible!!! (apparently this statement had it's origins in Greek false religion and it is known throughout the world). There are times; of course when we know that doing the right thing involves action; that is a different subject)
Our childlike faith should never be calloused by the weight of the world. That being said; there is no escaping the fact that we are in mortal bodies which are perishing daily such as 2 Corinthians 4:16 indicates. We have treasure in earthen vessels; though ( 2 Cor. 4:7). There is a healthy abandon which should accompany a mature faith; these aren't needing to be mutually exclusive states of mind and practice. We see those in the parable of the seeds and the sower who have immediate joy but no root in themselves ( Luke 8:13). We also have warnings to the Ephesian church in Revelation about leaving their first love ( Rev. 2:4).
The difference in these two verses is those who have an emotional reaction to the Gospel not rooted in faith; and in the second case those who had a true love in Christ and followed all the right doctrines but didn't continue to have love of Christ as their prime motivation. If we love Him we obey Him ( 1 John 5:2; John 14:21). Love of proper doctrine; law and other protocols should be the offshoot of that love but it must keep a root in a living; active faith else it slips into a religious set of moral dogmas that seeks to either squelch the flesh or brings an attitude of pride and self righteousness to the ecclesiastical leadership that leads to a dead religious set of rituals. Eventually; of course that leads to the tendancy of additional rituals in a Pharisaical manner if we are not careful.
Avoiding dead fellowship is no excuse for a permanant retreat from fellowship; however. Especially as we see the day of His return drawing near we are told NOT to forsake the assembly of one another ( Heb. 10:25). Our identities should be seen as adopted sons and daughters and being part of that heavenly assembly ( Heb. 12:1). There is a knowledge that the earth and heaven must be remade; all creation is groaning and will be until that Day comes ( Romans 8:22). Satan's accusations show us earth is not our home.
May God be with those you choose to be deceiving and hide the Truth. ( Mark 4:22) ( Luke 8:17) ( John 8:32) ( John 14:6) ( Luke 11:23) Nothing is hid from God! Blessings to all.
Honestly , I can't see any good in that . Maybe I'm a very cynical person , I just don't see why we would need to say something in private , about the Bible , that we can't say on this public forum . What would I want to say to someone on here that I couldn't say in front of everyone ? For many years at my congregations weekly Bible class , women were not permitted to speak . I was kind of irked by this when I first joined , after I'd been there for a long long time , they decided to change the rules and let women speak . I never say one word . So now I feel bad for not speaking because everyone else , men and women , think that I'm passing a negative judgement on them by not speaking . If I had been speaking I know that I would have embarrassed myself but even worse I would have embarrassed others . So , despite the fact that I know my silence annoys everyone else , I'm keeping my mouth shut . I just think that if you can't say what you want to say to all of us , why ? Why can't you say it in front of all of us ? Luke 8:17+18 and Luke 12:2+3 .
Back to our conversation. You are right that the verb "hupomeno/omen, sing/plural" sometimes is written in the Bible having the meaning of "to endure or suffer or remain under tough conditions with patience, a patient endurance. Verses where that verb has that specific meaning are e.g. in Timothy 2:10, Timothy 2:12, but we can find the noun "hupomone" in verses like e.g. Luke 8:15, Rom 2:7, 5:3, 1 Thess 1:3, Hebr 10:36 etc where it has the meaning of patience. (If you wish I can give you all the verses in NT that contain that word). I think those two meanings are so closely related to one another so that sometimes it is not very obvious which meaning they actual have. One needs patience to endure/ to stay under tough conditions/tribulations. Otherwise what is the point of being patient if they enjoy themselves, nobody would say that they patiently have a nice time, would they? But in Hebrews 10:36 it has the meaning of patience. This is how I find it written in modern Greek Bibles.
About your question "What would be the consequences for a Jewish person for following Jesus?". I think they would be separated from the other Hebrews, not allowed to enter the synagoge, and suffer all kind of persecutions, even imprisonment and execution. We can read about that in Acts (Stephen) just before Paul was converted to Christianity. And we can read what Paul suffered by his own nation after he received Jesus as his Savior.
I agree with GiGi; Christ was raised a body of flesh and bone, no longer needing blood to be the LIFE, but SPIRIT to be THE LIFE.
We will be given that same BODY,: at the death of this body, flesh and bone, and SPIRIT being the LIFE of that body.
We have to come to TRUTH, we exist NOW by that LIFE, we are just the BODY of that LIFE, and that LIFE is Christ.
WE DIED with Christ, we were RAISED with Christ, we just haven't gotten our NEW BODY yet.
This is a hard saying and most want agree with it, the multiplication of SEED, the word of God (Christ) is the SEED: Luke 8:11
Many are called, few find THE WAY.
John 14:6 I AM THE WAY and THE TRUTH and THE LIFE.
When Christ ascended into heaven he had a body, heaven is symbolic of MANKIND, Christ ascended into YOU and I, we are that BODY, the temple of God, the OLD was a shadow of the NEW, the CLOUD (God) was over and in the tabernacle, the CLOUD is now over and in the tabernacle (MANKIND, You and I and all others), Christ said he would appear in THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, we are those clouds of heaven, Christ said his words are HIDDEN in symbols and PARABLES.
There are multiple reasons for delay & no from GOD.
James 4, not GOD's perfect plan, timing = look at Abraham he was promised a son, even past natural ability Genesis 12:4,6,7, Abram 75 yrs old, Genesis 17:1-8, Abraham also called Abram 90 yrs old, Sarah Genesis 18:10,11, Genesis 21:1-3, was the delay for example of faith Hebrews 11, was it for the linage of Salvation timing? Matthew 1:17, ?
1John 3:22, John 16:23, Psalms 37, Luke 11, Matthew 6, Matthew 7, Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Luke 18,
I fasted, prayed, begged, cried out & received what I asked many times & several of those caused me years of deep pain, regret, sadness etc. Trust GOD ALMIGHTY sometimes it's protection, not seeing & knowing everything & everyone attached to the things we ask. Luke 8:10-18,
Get her to the church where she can be prayed over. As instructed in James 5:14-15. I'm believing that God will do a mighty work in her life and ask you to encourage her to stand upon His word.
Hi David, I was wondering how you would explain that and reconcile what the Bible says with your belief.
These verses are in context and contradict what you are claiming, but even though they're in context and you just click or hover over it to read the whole chapter or book you just dismissed it as not being in context.
I noticed your response didn't have any Bible verses supporting your view.
I believe in and stand by Jesus's words. It sounds like you're accusing Jesus of being about "works." You do so at your own risk. I will not be ashamed for believing in what Jesus says, even if people use all kinds of tricks to attack.
Jesus: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
You: No, don't obey, because that's works.
Is that really your position that it's "bad" to obey Jesus, and "good" to not obey Jesus?
If so, that sounds exactly like something satan would say. Such a clever deception to get people to believe its somehow bad to do good and good to do bad. As if God wants people to disobey Him!?
Also I noticed you used the same straw man argument everyone else has been taught to use that if you want to follow Jesus then automatically you're trying to work towards heaven and there's no other possibility. I already said we're saved by grace, which seemed to be ignored. Of course I already answered this fallacy in advance, but maybe you didn't read it or did and claimed this fallacy anyway. Anyway, I feel a moral obligation to counter the lies on here and anyone claiming that its bad to follow and bad to obey Jesus is just is not speaking the truth. The Bible warns Christians of this throughout scripture.
My understanding, Jesus coming, the Messiah/Christ was not a secret, Daniel 9:25 prophesied when He would come. Jesus came to fulfill the prophets and the law, and when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus, and Jesus was filled without measure, John 3:34.
John the Baptist proclaimed it, John 1:34 and His disciples did as well, John 1:41 Jesus told the woman at the well He was the Messiah, John 25:25-26 and Martha John 11:27. It was confirmed by all the miracles Jesus did by the Spirit of God, Matt. 12:28 the kingdom of God has come, but the death and resurrection were, at that time a secret/mystery, Rom. 11:25.
The kingdom of God has come, John said it was at hand, Matt. 3:1-2. After John was put in prison Jesus came preaching Mark 1:14-15. The mystery of the kingdom; they were looking for the stone to crush Rome and the kingdom would be set up then Daniel 2:44, but it was like the parables of the mustard seed and the yeast Matt. 13, increasing even today until the crushing blow at Jesus second coming.
The disciples knew Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, so I am sure that was part of their preaching, but Jesus' death and resurrection were hidden even from the disciples Luke 9:45. We see how they fled when Jesus was arrested, Matt. 26:56, and they did not believe He resurrected Mark 16:10-11Luke 23:10-11 it was hidden from them for if Satan had known the results, he would have tried to stop it.
Jesus spoke mainly to the Pharisees and Sadducees in parables to fulfill the prophecy, Matt. 13:10-15Mark 4:10-13Luke 8:10. The mystery was not revealed until after Jesus was resurrected as Jesus told them the Holy Spirit would bring remembrance and teaching to them John 14:26John 16:3-4Romans 11:25Romans 16:25 the promise to Abraham Genesis 17:4-7 and that seed was Jesus the Messiah/Christ.
This is my understanding may someone else have another, pray and study for your understanding.
"The sower went out to sow his seed: and in his sowing, some fell beside the wayside; and it was trodden down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
6 And other fell upon the rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, on account its not having moisture.
7 And other fell in the midst of the thorns; and the thorns sprang up together, and
stifled it.
8 And others fell upon good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold." And when He had said these things, He cried, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
9 And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And He said, "Unto you it has been given to get to know the secrets of the kingdom of God: but to the rest within parables; in order that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable means this: The seed represents the word of God.
12 Those beside the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and snatches away the word out of their hearts, in order that they should not believe and be saved.
13 They upon the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word of God in
association with joy; and these have no root, which for a season believe, and within time of trial fall away
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, as they go on their way, and are stifled by cares and riches and pleasures of the life that is lived, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that in the good ground are they, which within an honest and good heart, having heard the word of God, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit in patient endurance.
16 No man, when he hath lighted a lamp, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a couch; but setteth it upon a lampstand, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For not anything is hidden, that shall not become manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not become known and come to light.
"The sower went out to sow his seed: and in his sowing, some fell beside the wayside; and it was trodden down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
6 And other fell upon the rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, on account its not having moisture.
7 And other fell in the midst of the thorns; and the thorns sprang up together, and
stifled it.
8 And others fell upon good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold." And when He had said these things, He cried, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
9 And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And He said, "Unto you it has been given to get to know the secrets of the kingdom of God: but to the rest within parables; in order that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable means this: The seed represents the word of God.
12 Those beside the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and snatches away the word out of their hearts, in order that they should not believe and be saved.
13 They upon the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word of God in
association with joy; and these have no root, which for a season believe, and within time of trial fall away
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, as they go on their way, and are stifled by cares and riches and pleasures of the life that is lived, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that in the good ground are they, which within an honest and good heart, having heard the word of God, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit in patient endurance.
16 No man, when he hath lighted a lamp, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a couch; but setteth it upon a lampstand, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For not anything is hidden, that shall not become manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not become known and come to light.
This section goes from they did not believe (as seen in John 6:64; 8:46 and others) to verse 39 of this chapter which states that they COULD not believe as prophesied in Isaiah 53:1.
Verse 42 serves as a harsh reminder that we can have belief in Christ but we also must CONFESS with our mouths ( Romans 10:9-10) in order to have saving faith. We are reminded here of Luke 16:15 which states that which is honorable among men is an abomination to God.
Here; it was praise of men that was the cause; and being thrown out of the synagogue; not even direct physical persecution.
Verse 48 reminds us of the conviction of the Spirit as mentioned in John 16:8; a few chapters later. Clearly; the whole Godhead works as a unit in tandem in ways mysterious to man.
Verse 40 goes on further to state from Isaiah about God Himself blinding men. Some other verses on that include 2 Thessalonians 2:11 where God Himself sends strong delusion so that they will believe the lie because of the previous verse where they did not LOVE the truth. Also we have Isaiah 66:4 where it says that God will choose their delusions.
All sin stems from self justification; and self love that cannot accept the true state of our souls as fallen man because of Adam and his progeny that makes up natural man. Naked we come into this world and naked we shall go ( Job 1:21); also see Ecclesiastes 5:15. We cannot love anything above God; Jesus uses the word HATE for anything else ( Luke 14:25-26). We see the general sentiment in verse 25 of this chapter. Clearly; Christ Himself showed love in the previous chapter for Lazarus; Mary and Martha as well as John when He said "Behold your mother" to John at the cross so that he could take care of her. ( John 19:26-27).
There were times when they sought Him out when He stated the more important principle that those who followed Him were brothers; sisters; etc. ( Luke 8:21).
The blueprint for being a child of God or not is in John 12.
In studying Christ's death on the cross and the resulting salvation of our souls it is no small thing to focus attention and time on such a matter on a regular basis. At least from our perspective the meaning to us personally must be considered with all due reverence for how He took us from death to life. John 17:6-8 makes clear that God was the one who gave Christ all the ones who were to be saved. The following verses ask for unity among them all; and to be in the world but not of it (in general). These verses prayed during His agony in Gethsemane are the summation of much of the earlier chapters in John clearly showing that God was the one who predetermined (predestined) all those who would be saved and hear His voice as His sheep.
However you slice it; there are some who will and will not come to Christ. Also God knows ahead of time who these people are so therefore certainly could have designated ahead of time who would be sheep and who would be a goat; who would be wheat and who a tare; etc. In other words; it wasn't up to Christ to give out any information that could lead someone to the truth in a merely intellectual manner and therefore much of His ministry was spent teaching in parables. Compare Mark 4:12 with Luke 8:12. The lack of insight given so that people can be saved is clear from the first passage; but Satan is used as the agent to blind men's hearts in the second example in Luke of the seed by the wayside.
There are as Deuteronomy 29:29 states some things in the Divine counsel which men are not privy to. Certain things can be searched out; however ( Proverbs 25:2). John 3:16 states that God so loved the world and sent His Son. We should keep in mind here that Christ came first and foremost to do the Father's will. All those called and chosen would be saved EXCEPT for the prophesied son of perdition (see Psalm 69:25; Psalm 41:9; Psalm 109).
"There met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way."
Casting out demons from taking over a person is nothing new. Heart of man is treacherous. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." (Je.17:9-10). The Spirit in dealing with this wants us to remember what Jesus he was there fore. The Evangelist inspired by the Spirit gives us in terms of Prophet Isaiah 'Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."(8:17). Jesus knew the demoniac spirit would not leave him with all his powers at disposal so a legion clamored while he himself did not know how to be himself. How he wanted to follow Jesus after he was healed is what Matthew is laying emphasis on. So 'the two possessed with devils' refer to two personality. This is corroborated by both Mark and Luke versions. According to the fruit of his doings "And he went his way, and published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him."( Luke 8:39b)" Jesus searches the heart to give every according to his ways and saw the man could be helped. It was he took over his case and restored him to his family. By the same token the devils were unanimous where they wanted to go." So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine./ And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters."(8:31-32)
The loss of swine was most unspeakable to the city where livestock counted more than men. Our times have no whit improved on the heart most deceitful and desperately wicked at the time of Jesus.
Like Begets Life
The Superscription can be put this way, "And the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself." Whose seed is in itself makes the tree of life and the trees of righteousness as of one kind. Whose seed is in itself refers to the word of God sown in our hearts about which we hold a spiritual space.
Thus Adam would not find an help meet. He was the double for his Son and his mate had to match bone for bone and flesh for flesh. This understanding is what being based on truth did. God breathed his spirit into his nostrils and his living soul established his world 'in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,'. Now for the verse,
"But for Adam there was not found an help meet for him./And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;"
What does sleep signify? For Jesus here was no doubt with regards to Jairus's daughter. Before he would go in he said, "For the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn."(Matt.9:24; Luke 8:8:49-55) He was there as the Word become flesh but also was in the land of the living where his Father was the God of the living." The same two worlds we are discussing and it's frame of reference is not only the now but also the day decreed for the Son.
When Jesus transfigured before the three disciples he merely showed the two worlds he carried about and it was same for Adam. He carried the same glory so he was naked but felt no shame.(Ge.2:25)
In 2:21 the Spirit speaks of a deep sleep which is not merely his sleep but with reference to the Son for whom he was a stand in. It is for this reason Elisha asked a double portion of his spirit. "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me."(2 Ki.2:9). This is in context of the two worlds. 'Deep' refers to the death of the Son which would occur according to the scriptures in the day decreed for him.
23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
This verse is a sobering reminder that "many are called; few are chosen". ( Matt. 22:14). We are reminded of the verse in Matthew 7:22 when people would claim they did many miracles in His name; but that He never knew them. Verse 24 needs further consideration. For the Father and Son to dwell within us ( John 14:23) we need a heart change; as it were. Without good soil; as it were there can't be fruit production ( Luke 8:15).
For Jesus to "commit himself" to someone means that He deems us acceptable "in the Beloved" ( Ephesians 1:6). Let that sink in; all of our "declarations" of faith; blessings; etc. are meaningless unless He has initiated that covenant; or bond with our souls. Therefore we see many examples of Jesus "weeding out" the crowds and individuals who claimed that they wished to follow Him as a Disciple. Counting the cost is a painful exercise; following Christ means an all or nothing proposition; something not palatable for many; in fact most who would claim to believe. As I have stated in previous posts; Jesus seemed to a large extent to provide food and healings to any who would request it. Yet He would challenge them for the reasons which He could see in their hearts for following Him (such as getting their fill of bread). Except for the few that would clearly come to worship Him and/or give God the glory we cannot be certain who is healed and actually came to true faith ( John 5:14 is a good example of this). Even His own brothers for a time didn't believe in Him ( John 7:5). Further exploration indicates that God must reveal Jesus to a person ( Matt. 16:17). May He enlighten our minds today as we ponder His Word.
"Now the parable is this: THE SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD." ( Luke 8:11)
Another scripture verse is this that confirms that the word of God represents "seed" and in fact "incorruptible seed":
"Being born again, NOT OF CORRUPTIBLE SEED, but of INCORRUPTIBLE [seed], by THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever." ( 1 Peter 1:23)
So, my dilemma is do I believe you - who (presumably) is a 'man' who has NOT died and has NOT risen from the dead and has NOT ascended in Heaven - OR, do I believe the words in the Bible spoken by Jesus Christ Himself - supported by the Apostle Peters words also thereby making TWO WITNESSES that agree:
"...In the mouth of two or three witnesses [Jesus and Peter] shall every word be established." ( 2 Corinthians 13:1)
If I was to believe what you wrote, I would then have to say that Jesus Christ is a liar. I couldn't do that.
Given that Jesus Christ has both died, risen from the dead and ascended into heaven according to the scriptures and as both He and the Apostle Peter have affirmed that "THE [incorruptible] SEED IS THE WORD OF GOD", I have to reject your false claims.
In my post that responded to S Spencer, it focussed on the following statement:
QUOTE: "In John 15:2 and especially verse 6, Jesus is very clear that if Christians FAIL to produce unto God the required quantities of "spiritual fruit" expected, God the Father will remove them permanently from Christ. When that happens, John 15:6 says they become "withered" (spiritually) prior to men (or angels - Matthew 13:40-42) later gathering them prior to burning in the Lake of Fire." UNQUOTE
Instead of you addressing this very serious claim associated with Bible-based Salvation, you have chosen to refer to the parable of the Sower and the Seed and presented your "take" on what you believe it represents. I disagree with what you say because you open up your claims by saying:
- "the wheat is a Baby Christ".
There's nothing in the parable that says the "seed" is wheat or the "Baby Christ" as you claim. Jesus Christ's own words in scripture prove your claim here to be false, Alex7:
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God." ( Luke 8:11)
Given that you have this basic understanding of the parable wrong, it is pointless for me to comment on anything else in your reply.
Thanks anyway, Alex 7.
Where in the Bible does it say that it's okay for women to be preachers.
MOUNTHOREB REPLY: Woman can prophecy not new info outside of the scriptures 2 Timothy 3:15-17. However, They preach what they have learned to others outside of the church or congregation. When asked a question about the bible. a woman can reply to anyone who is asking the question. even if it's a man, elder 1 Timothy 3 or someone in authority. but within the church or congregation 1 Timothy 3, a woman does not have authority over a man to speak to the whole church or Congregation 1Timothy 2:11,12,14 (unless there's no men available, if this is the case she covers her head within the congregation to PREACH 1 Corinthians 11:5;16 because of the angels in heaven) however, Outside of the building, yes a woman can teach others outside (family, neighbors etc.) Acts 2:16,17.
Jesus allowed women to speak to him and listen. even sit at his feet and ask questions. he allowed woman to speak and listened to them. and to follow him as he preached. Luke 1:36-38; John 4:7-54; John 11:20-29; John 20:11-18; Acts 1:14; Luke 8:1-3; Luke 10:38-42; Romans 16:1-5; Acts 18:2; Acts 18:24-26;
In marriage: Ephesians 5:21-33
These are all the scriptures I can think of. Revelation 22:17 "Its free"
My thoughts on Assurance of Salvation
Richard, I continue my posts from yesterday.
In Philippians 2:12 Paul advices believers "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
Why fear and trembling? Fear what? Although the meaning of the verse is clear, I would like to point out another fear, not about our salvation but about our heart.
In Jeremiah 17:9, it is written "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We don't really know our heart, we don't know how we are going to act when a temptation comes infront of us, that is why in the "Our Father in Heaven" we ask God to take temptations away from us.
In the parable of the Sower the 2nd and 3rd cases are about people who believed and were saved but still later in their lives they fell out,
Luke 8:13-14, " 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."
In the 3rd case it is very evident of where our heart can lead us if we are not careful in our spiritual life. Jesus said that "where our heart is, also our treasure is" and the opposite "where our treasure is also our heart is" is true. Jesus also asked us to love Him more even than our lives ( Matthew 10:37-39). Why? Because a. He deserves that and b. this will give us the assurance that we will follow Him to the end. If in the midtime we love something else more than Jesus then it is that that we are going to follow and not God, so we will leave our christian course. And that will lead us into trouble.
God has given you a new name.
The resurrection made all things NEW, including your name.
Isaiah 62:2 ...... and thou shall be called by a new name ....
Revelation 2:17 ...and I will give him a white stone, and in that stone a NEW NAME written, which no man knoweth but he that RECEIVETH it.
Revelation 3:12 ...and i will write upon him my new name ...
If you don't YET know your new name, the word of God tells you what that name is.
You were married to Christ by his and your resurrection TOGETHER, the bride takes the name of her husband,
You were baptised in the NAME of Jesus.
There was only ONE BODY raised at the resurrection, and that ONE BODY was given LIFE by ONE SPIRIT.
1 Corinthians 12:27 NOW you are the body of Christ .....
Luke 8:11 .... the SEED is the WORD OF GOD .....
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (YOU), saith the Lord, the words that I (the Father) have put in your (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of your (Christ is the WORD, the SEED) mouth, nor out of thy SEED (your born again by the WORD of GOD----you become SEED) nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED (your are going to bear fruit---SEED), saith the Lord, from henceforth (the resurrection) and forever.
You are the BODY OF CHRIST.
Revelation 19:16 And he had on his vesture and on his thigh (body) written, THE LORD OF LORDS AND THE KING OF KINGS
Revelation 19:13 ...and his name is called THE WORD OF GOD ....
Revelation 1:1 The REVELATION (the revealing) of Jesus Christ .....
Revelation 1:11 .... I AM .... the first (man) ....I AM .... the last (man)
Exodus 3:13 .... I AM that I AM .... I AM hath sent ME to YOU ....
John 17:22 ...and the GLORY that thou has given me, I have GIVEN THEM ....that they may be ONE as we are ONE ...
You were given a NEW NAME, a gift of GOD, by the death and resurrecting of CHRIST.
God bless you.
Matthew 13:30 Let them grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The field is the world, both the seeds of wheat and the seeds of tares are planted together, they grow together and are harvested together, but one goes to the fire and the other to the barn.
During Christ time everyone was associated with farming, today not many know much of anything about farming.
The tares are weeds, yet they also bear seed, the farmer burned the weeds to destroy their seed; so they, the weeds, would not keep multiplying, the wheat is gather into the barn to be replanted and thus multiplying.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.
Christ is the SEED, the SEED (wheat) is gather into the barn and replanted so it will multiply.
Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must go again (after your harvested) and prophesy again before many peoples, and nations and tongues.
Luke 20:36 Neither can they (the SEED) died anymore (you died with Christ): for they (the SEED) are EQUAL unto the angels; and are the children (the SEED) of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION (you were raised with Christ) ...
the new creation the new SEED.
Isaiah 59:21 And this is my covenant with them (the harvested SEED), saith the Lord (our Father), MY SPIRIT that is upon thee (Christ, the WORD, the SEED, and the WORDS (seed) that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED, nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED forever.
God bless you.
The written word; through BELIEF of those written words, BECOMES the LIVING WORD:
The WORD of God is the SEED
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: the SEED is the WORD of GOD.
John 1:1 In the beginning was THE WORD (the seed), and THE WORD (the seed) was with God, and THE WORD (the seed) was God.
The WRITTEN words are just a WITNESS, of the LIVING WORD.
John 1:14 And THE WORD was made flesh .....
Romans 8:3 God (the Word, the SEED) sending his own son (the WORD, the SEED) as SINFUL FLESH ....
ALL FLESH (the WORD, THE SEED became flesh) died on the Cross with CHRIST: ALL FLESH arose a NEW CREATION (the WORD, the SEED)
Psalms 12:6 The WORDS (YOU, all men; the new creation, by the WORKS of the resurrection) are pure (living) WORDS: as silver TRIED in the furnace of earth (you were first made of dust), purified seven times (this is speaking of the living WORD (YOU) not the written WORD (the letters of the law).
The WRITTEN WORD has to become the LIVING WORD.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible SEED (sinful flesh), but incorruptible, by the (living WORD, made known by the written) WORD OF GOD, with liveth and abideth forever.
Isaiah 59:21 As for me (God the WORD, the SEED), this is my covenant with them (the new creation in Christ, by his resurrection), My spirit that I have put upon THEE (CHRIST), and my (living) WORDS that I have put in thy (Christ's) mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed (the WORD), nor out of the mouth of thy SEED'S SEED (the WORD) forever.
God bless you.
In further analysis as to the understanding granted to Peter in recognizing that Christ was indeed God in the flesh and not just a great prophet or such we see a principle still holding fast today. That is; those who are truly Spirit filled have surrounding them and within them a foreign righteousness; something that is much like a star viewed from a distance. The light is seen best not directly but indirectly. Christ truly was the Prophet that Moses had predicted; and certainly a great teacher and learned man from his youth up. Only He could; however die for man's sins and thus be the "I am". He had to be both God and man to fill that role.
In preaching the truth; He wouldn't often resort to lengthy scriptural discourses (except for perhaps the Sermon on the Mount).
Much was; in fact hidden to the elite and Pharisees and done purposely so that the wisdom of the world could be proven foolishness to the Lord ( 1 Cor. 3:19). God's purposes cannot be fully understood; but He deliberately keeps those proud in their own righteousness blind ( Matt. 13:15). This parallels as well the parable of the seed which is dropped to the ground and immediately the devil takes it away in Luke 8:12.
It cannot be overemphasized here that our state without Christ is horrendous; and cannot be fathomed. Even in Christ as we see in the scriptures we are children; often entangled in our own messes and always in desperate need of total dependance on God to guide us and protect us from the wiles of the evil one (see the Lord's prayer). This; of course is the opposite of the statement by Benjamin Franklin who supposedly said that "God helps those who help themselves" and BTW this is NOT in the Bible!!! (apparently this statement had it's origins in Greek false religion and it is known throughout the world). There are times; of course when we know that doing the right thing involves action; that is a different subject)
Our childlike faith should never be calloused by the weight of the world. That being said; there is no escaping the fact that we are in mortal bodies which are perishing daily such as 2 Corinthians 4:16 indicates. We have treasure in earthen vessels; though ( 2 Cor. 4:7). There is a healthy abandon which should accompany a mature faith; these aren't needing to be mutually exclusive states of mind and practice. We see those in the parable of the seeds and the sower who have immediate joy but no root in themselves ( Luke 8:13). We also have warnings to the Ephesian church in Revelation about leaving their first love ( Rev. 2:4).
The difference in these two verses is those who have an emotional reaction to the Gospel not rooted in faith; and in the second case those who had a true love in Christ and followed all the right doctrines but didn't continue to have love of Christ as their prime motivation. If we love Him we obey Him ( 1 John 5:2; John 14:21). Love of proper doctrine; law and other protocols should be the offshoot of that love but it must keep a root in a living; active faith else it slips into a religious set of moral dogmas that seeks to either squelch the flesh or brings an attitude of pride and self righteousness to the ecclesiastical leadership that leads to a dead religious set of rituals. Eventually; of course that leads to the tendancy of additional rituals in a Pharisaical manner if we are not careful.
Avoiding dead fellowship is no excuse for a permanant retreat from fellowship; however. Especially as we see the day of His return drawing near we are told NOT to forsake the assembly of one another ( Heb. 10:25). Our identities should be seen as adopted sons and daughters and being part of that heavenly assembly ( Heb. 12:1). There is a knowledge that the earth and heaven must be remade; all creation is groaning and will be until that Day comes ( Romans 8:22). Satan's accusations show us earth is not our home.
Back to our conversation. You are right that the verb "hupomeno/omen, sing/plural" sometimes is written in the Bible having the meaning of "to endure or suffer or remain under tough conditions with patience, a patient endurance. Verses where that verb has that specific meaning are e.g. in Timothy 2:10, Timothy 2:12, but we can find the noun "hupomone" in verses like e.g. Luke 8:15, Rom 2:7, 5:3, 1 Thess 1:3, Hebr 10:36 etc where it has the meaning of patience. (If you wish I can give you all the verses in NT that contain that word). I think those two meanings are so closely related to one another so that sometimes it is not very obvious which meaning they actual have. One needs patience to endure/ to stay under tough conditions/tribulations. Otherwise what is the point of being patient if they enjoy themselves, nobody would say that they patiently have a nice time, would they? But in Hebrews 10:36 it has the meaning of patience. This is how I find it written in modern Greek Bibles.
About your question "What would be the consequences for a Jewish person for following Jesus?". I think they would be separated from the other Hebrews, not allowed to enter the synagoge, and suffer all kind of persecutions, even imprisonment and execution. We can read about that in Acts (Stephen) just before Paul was converted to Christianity. And we can read what Paul suffered by his own nation after he received Jesus as his Savior.
Thanks for your comment on Daniel's 70 weeks. GBU
I agree with GiGi; Christ was raised a body of flesh and bone, no longer needing blood to be the LIFE, but SPIRIT to be THE LIFE.
We will be given that same BODY,: at the death of this body, flesh and bone, and SPIRIT being the LIFE of that body.
We have to come to TRUTH, we exist NOW by that LIFE, we are just the BODY of that LIFE, and that LIFE is Christ.
WE DIED with Christ, we were RAISED with Christ, we just haven't gotten our NEW BODY yet.
This is a hard saying and most want agree with it, the multiplication of SEED, the word of God (Christ) is the SEED: Luke 8:11
Many are called, few find THE WAY.
John 14:6 I AM THE WAY and THE TRUTH and THE LIFE.
When Christ ascended into heaven he had a body, heaven is symbolic of MANKIND, Christ ascended into YOU and I, we are that BODY, the temple of God, the OLD was a shadow of the NEW, the CLOUD (God) was over and in the tabernacle, the CLOUD is now over and in the tabernacle (MANKIND, You and I and all others), Christ said he would appear in THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, we are those clouds of heaven, Christ said his words are HIDDEN in symbols and PARABLES.
Just as you said: a puzzle within a puzzle.
God Bless YOU!
Here's a strongs definition of the word sow.
Probably strengthened from G4685 (through the idea of extending); to SCATTER that is sow (literally or figuratively): - sow (-er) receive seed.
( It means to SCATTER seed.)
The term is used in the Bible to spread the word of God.
Jesus says the seed is the word of God here in Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."
Some fell on good ground and some fell on bad ground as mentioned in Luke 8:5-15.
That which fell on good ground bares fruit that which fell on bad ground doesn't.
The fruit represents LIFE! and that's eternal LIFE.
AN INDICATION WE ALL WON'T HAVE IT.
ALSO SEE. Matthew 13:3-23.
God bless you.
James 4, not GOD's perfect plan, timing = look at Abraham he was promised a son, even past natural ability Genesis 12:4,6,7, Abram 75 yrs old, Genesis 17:1-8, Abraham also called Abram 90 yrs old, Sarah Genesis 18:10,11, Genesis 21:1-3, was the delay for example of faith Hebrews 11, was it for the linage of Salvation timing? Matthew 1:17, ?
1John 3:22, John 16:23, Psalms 37, Luke 11, Matthew 6, Matthew 7, Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Luke 18,
I fasted, prayed, begged, cried out & received what I asked many times & several of those caused me years of deep pain, regret, sadness etc. Trust GOD ALMIGHTY sometimes it's protection, not seeing & knowing everything & everyone attached to the things we ask. Luke 8:10-18,
Luke 8:15, Revelation 3:10,
Hopefully these are helpful
Exodus 25, Romans 11,
Hopefully these are also helpful in your study
Get her to the church where she can be prayed over. As instructed in James 5:14-15. I'm believing that God will do a mighty work in her life and ask you to encourage her to stand upon His word.
Isaiah 4:10
Luke 8:50
These verses are in context and contradict what you are claiming, but even though they're in context and you just click or hover over it to read the whole chapter or book you just dismissed it as not being in context.
I noticed your response didn't have any Bible verses supporting your view.
I believe in and stand by Jesus's words. It sounds like you're accusing Jesus of being about "works." You do so at your own risk. I will not be ashamed for believing in what Jesus says, even if people use all kinds of tricks to attack.
Jesus: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15
You: No, don't obey, because that's works.
Is that really your position that it's "bad" to obey Jesus, and "good" to not obey Jesus?
If so, that sounds exactly like something satan would say. Such a clever deception to get people to believe its somehow bad to do good and good to do bad. As if God wants people to disobey Him!?
Also I noticed you used the same straw man argument everyone else has been taught to use that if you want to follow Jesus then automatically you're trying to work towards heaven and there's no other possibility. I already said we're saved by grace, which seemed to be ignored. Of course I already answered this fallacy in advance, but maybe you didn't read it or did and claimed this fallacy anyway. Anyway, I feel a moral obligation to counter the lies on here and anyone claiming that its bad to follow and bad to obey Jesus is just is not speaking the truth. The Bible warns Christians of this throughout scripture.
Matthew 7:21-23
Hebrews 10:26
Hebrews 6:4-6
James 2:14-26
Matthew 12:31-32
Romans 14:12
1 Peter 1:5
1 Cor 9:24-27
2 Peter 3:17
Luke 8:5-18
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Peter 2:20-22
Hebrews 3:12
Galatians 5:4
1 Corinthians 15:2-8
My understanding, Jesus coming, the Messiah/Christ was not a secret, Daniel 9:25 prophesied when He would come. Jesus came to fulfill the prophets and the law, and when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus, and Jesus was filled without measure, John 3:34.
John the Baptist proclaimed it, John 1:34 and His disciples did as well, John 1:41 Jesus told the woman at the well He was the Messiah, John 25:25-26 and Martha John 11:27. It was confirmed by all the miracles Jesus did by the Spirit of God, Matt. 12:28 the kingdom of God has come, but the death and resurrection were, at that time a secret/mystery, Rom. 11:25.
The kingdom of God has come, John said it was at hand, Matt. 3:1-2. After John was put in prison Jesus came preaching Mark 1:14-15. The mystery of the kingdom; they were looking for the stone to crush Rome and the kingdom would be set up then Daniel 2:44, but it was like the parables of the mustard seed and the yeast Matt. 13, increasing even today until the crushing blow at Jesus second coming.
The disciples knew Jesus was the Messiah/Christ, so I am sure that was part of their preaching, but Jesus' death and resurrection were hidden even from the disciples Luke 9:45. We see how they fled when Jesus was arrested, Matt. 26:56, and they did not believe He resurrected Mark 16:10-11 Luke 23:10-11 it was hidden from them for if Satan had known the results, he would have tried to stop it.
Jesus spoke mainly to the Pharisees and Sadducees in parables to fulfill the prophecy, Matt. 13:10-15 Mark 4:10-13 Luke 8:10. The mystery was not revealed until after Jesus was resurrected as Jesus told them the Holy Spirit would bring remembrance and teaching to them John 14:26 John 16:3-4 Romans 11:25 Romans 16:25 the promise to Abraham Genesis 17:4-7 and that seed was Jesus the Messiah/Christ.
This is my understanding may someone else have another, pray and study for your understanding.
God bless,
RLW
Matthew 24, Mark 13,
Hopefully these are helpful
Leviticus 2:6,15, Ezekiel 46:15, John 6:50-51,
If these are the same account then much is written about her & her siblings, here are some: John 11, Luke 7:36-50, Luke 8:2,
Matthew 27:55-61, Matthew 28, Mark 15, Mark 16,
Hopefully these are helpful
1Samuel 2:6,
Matthew 27:52,53, 1Corinthians 15, Matthew 22:31,32, also, Luke 7:15,22, Luke 8:49-56, Luke 24, Colossians 1
Did you see it prophesy in:? Ezekiel 37:12,13, John 5:21,25,28, Isaiah 26:19,
Hosea 13:14, possibly Isaiah 8:1, Psalms 88:10,
John 12:1-11,
Romans 6, Romans 8, Revelation 20,
John 11:25, Romans 10:9, Romans 14:7,8,9, 2Corinthians 1:9,
Hopefully these are all helpful in answering your question & deeper questions you & others may have on the subject
Parable of the Sower Luke 8:5
"The sower went out to sow his seed: and in his sowing, some fell beside the wayside; and it was trodden down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
6 And other fell upon the rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, on account its not having moisture.
7 And other fell in the midst of the thorns; and the thorns sprang up together, and
stifled it.
8 And others fell upon good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold." And when He had said these things, He cried, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
9 And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And He said, "Unto you it has been given to get to know the secrets of the kingdom of God: but to the rest within parables; in order that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable means this: The seed represents the word of God.
12 Those beside the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and snatches away the word out of their hearts, in order that they should not believe and be saved.
13 They upon the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word of God in
association with joy; and these have no root, which for a season believe, and within time of trial fall away
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, as they go on their way, and are stifled by cares and riches and pleasures of the life that is lived, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that in the good ground are they, which within an honest and good heart, having heard the word of God, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit in patient endurance.
16 No man, when he hath lighted a lamp, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a couch; but setteth it upon a lampstand, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For not anything is hidden, that shall not become manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not become known and come to light.
18 Take heed therefore
"The sower went out to sow his seed: and in his sowing, some fell beside the wayside; and it was trodden down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
6 And other fell upon the rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, on account its not having moisture.
7 And other fell in the midst of the thorns; and the thorns sprang up together, and
stifled it.
8 And others fell upon good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold." And when He had said these things, He cried, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
9 And His disciples asked Him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And He said, "Unto you it has been given to get to know the secrets of the kingdom of God: but to the rest within parables; in order that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable means this: The seed represents the word of God.
12 Those beside the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and snatches away the word out of their hearts, in order that they should not believe and be saved.
13 They upon the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word of God in
association with joy; and these have no root, which for a season believe, and within time of trial fall away
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, as they go on their way, and are stifled by cares and riches and pleasures of the life that is lived, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that in the good ground are they, which within an honest and good heart, having heard the word of God, hold it fast, and bring forth fruit in patient endurance.
16 No man, when he hath lighted a lamp, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a couch; but setteth it upon a lampstand, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For not anything is hidden, that shall not become manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not become known and come to light.
18 Take heed therefore how ye hear:
This section goes from they did not believe (as seen in John 6:64; 8:46 and others) to verse 39 of this chapter which states that they COULD not believe as prophesied in Isaiah 53:1.
Verse 42 serves as a harsh reminder that we can have belief in Christ but we also must CONFESS with our mouths ( Romans 10:9-10) in order to have saving faith. We are reminded here of Luke 16:15 which states that which is honorable among men is an abomination to God.
Here; it was praise of men that was the cause; and being thrown out of the synagogue; not even direct physical persecution.
Verse 48 reminds us of the conviction of the Spirit as mentioned in John 16:8; a few chapters later. Clearly; the whole Godhead works as a unit in tandem in ways mysterious to man.
Verse 40 goes on further to state from Isaiah about God Himself blinding men. Some other verses on that include 2 Thessalonians 2:11 where God Himself sends strong delusion so that they will believe the lie because of the previous verse where they did not LOVE the truth. Also we have Isaiah 66:4 where it says that God will choose their delusions.
All sin stems from self justification; and self love that cannot accept the true state of our souls as fallen man because of Adam and his progeny that makes up natural man. Naked we come into this world and naked we shall go ( Job 1:21); also see Ecclesiastes 5:15. We cannot love anything above God; Jesus uses the word HATE for anything else ( Luke 14:25-26). We see the general sentiment in verse 25 of this chapter. Clearly; Christ Himself showed love in the previous chapter for Lazarus; Mary and Martha as well as John when He said "Behold your mother" to John at the cross so that he could take care of her. ( John 19:26-27).
There were times when they sought Him out when He stated the more important principle that those who followed Him were brothers; sisters; etc. ( Luke 8:21).
The blueprint for being a child of God or not is in John 12.