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Jimbob,
Where I said the word council in Mark 13:9 is literally the Sanhedrin, I got this from reading it in the Greek Text. The word used in the Textus Receptus is SUNEDRIA, and it is the word for Sanhedrin. This can also be found in your Strong's Concordance #G4892, which defines it as the Jewish Sanhedrin; by analogy, a subordinate tribunal:-council. Thayer's Greek Lexicon lists it as the Sanhedrin, the great council at Jerusalem.
Now for your question, "what could cause one to be (delivered up) and killed during great tribulation?" You say "The mark of the beast will." If you are saying that those who refuse to take the mark will be killed (beheaded), then I agree. I can't agree that this will be the church because as you know, I believe the church will not be here at that time. Only non-believers will be here. They will all be warned not to take the mark. Some will heed to the warning and receive Christ, and refuse to take the mark. They will be killed.
As for Revelation 12:17, the "woman" in this verse is making reference to the nation Israel, not the church. It says that the dragon was wroth (very angry) with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed (the believing Jews), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
So, there is a 144,000 Jews who are sealed on their foreheads. And they will be protected. But there will be other Jews on the earth who will receive the testimony, especially from the two witnesses who are in the streets of Jerusalem. And the believing Jews that will be here on the earth, after Satan sees that he can't get to these 144,000 that are sent up to what many believe is the rock city of Petra, which is already stacked and stored with food, and many believe that will be the place.
If I'm understanding your question correctly, you are asking me about where Jesus said "when they deliver you up," and when this takes place, if the "deliver you up" time period proves that Jesus was speaking of the end-time tribulation period?
My answer is no, and here's why. In Matthew 10:16, Jesus says "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Jesus is sending them out as sheep amongst wolves. He knows what's going to happen to them once they start preaching the gospel, and He tells them what's going to happen in Matthew 10:17-18. They are going to be "delivered up."
Jesus is not talking about the end-time tribulation period here. He is sending His disciples out and telling them that they will be delivered up to the councils (Jewish Councils). And then in Matthew 10:19, Jesus says "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (This is not talking about the end-time).
In Matthew 24:9, this is to the Jews, not the church.
In Mark 13:9, Jesus says "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them."
What I notice are the words council and synagogues. The word council is literally Sanhedrin, the chief Council of the Jews. Jesus is talking to Jewish people. He is talking directly to His disciples. He is talking directly to His believers, (Jewish believers). Mark 13:11 tells us that they are going to be captured. As for Luke 21:12, this is also to the Jews, not the church.
When dealing with end-time prophecy I think the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. They are not the same message.
Blessings to you!
Hello Jesse
I had decided not to participate any more in discussions we have all had before about "secured or not salvation", but at the end it seems I can not avoid it.
About the grk HUPOMENO and HUPOMEINAS.
HUPOMENO is a verb of the first person, its complete form is "ego hupomeno", it means "I endure", (as you know in grk when speaking the personal pronoun is ommited since from the ending of the verb it is known to whom it is reffered).
HUPOMENON is a noun, it means "the one who endures, an endurer".
HUPOMEINAS is the same as above but it refers to the past, i.e. "the one who endured", I don't think there is a respective single word in Eng.
[Pronountiation in mod grk (if you are interested), the "h" is not pronounced, and the "u" is pron. as "ee". So it is "ee-poh-meh-noh", stressed at "meh". Always have in mind that syllables in grk usually are of the form conson-vowel, not conson-vowel-conson, neither vowel-conson. as in Eng. Also vowels are clear front mouth vowels. That will help you a lot when pronouncing grk words.]
So lets go to Mark 13:13, "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.". I don't really understand how you come to understand that verse the way you do. To me it is obvious that it says exactly how it sounds, that the one who endured those tribulations (Jesus speaks as if He sees those events after they happened, that is why He uses the past tense) he WILL be saved.
Similarly James 1:12, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he SHALL receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him". How do you understand this verse? It is like running a road, of say 10 miles, if one finishes then one receives a crown.
Hebrews 6:15, "And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he obtained the promise"
Rom 11:22, "...but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Jimbob,
Why would the 12 be hated? Because they preached Christ. Jesus knew ahead of time what their fate would be. They would be persecuted, tortured, and except for Judas who killed himself, they would die horrible deaths. They would suffer martyrdom. Did they endure to the end? Yes, they never wavered in their faith, all the way to their death. They endured to the end of their lives, and it would be safe to believe they were saved. But Jesus was not speaking to the church telling them they must endure the 7-year tribulation period, and if they endured, they would be saved.
This is the same thing we see in Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13. We have to take these verses in context of who Jesus is actually speaking to. He wasn't speaking to the church. The church was not in existence yet. In Matthew Chapter 24, and Mark Chapter 13, Jesus is speaking to the Jews (Jewish believers).
I am looking at the other verses you gave. The first being 2 Timothy 2:11-12. That needs to be taken along with Verses 7-14 where Paul is giving Timothy instruction for service. Paul is confined, and in Verse 9, he says he suffers trouble (because of the gospel). He suffered in prison, was put in chains, and beaten. But in 2 Timothy 2:10, Paul says, "therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes.
The word endure here is HUPOMENO which means to remain under. Paul says I remain under all of my difficult circumstances because I can be bound, but the gospel can't. Therefore, I endure all these things. He says I preach the gospel wherever I am enduring the hardships, so that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Paul endured through tribulation/trials.
Sorry for the late reply. I have not had a chance to be on here for a couple days. I just read your address to myself and brother Chris. This might be a little long, so I apologize ahead of time. I will begin this as (Part 1):
I had previously asked you if you were referring to the word HUPOMENO because #5278 in the Strong's Concordance is the word HUPOMENO. However, both the Textus Receptus and the Greek Interlinear use show it as HUPOMEINAS, not HUPOMENO. Those words are closely related but when properly used, they convey different meanings. I don't know why Strong's says HUPONEO when the Greek text actually uses HUPOMEINAS. If you own a Greek Interlinear Bible, you will see the correct usage.
HUPOMEINAS is used in three places in the NT ( Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, and Mark 13:13). It is #5278 in the Strong's Concordance, but the word is HUPOMEINAS, not what's listed in the Strong's. This word (HUPOMEINAS) describes a person who is saved. A saved person (will) endure to the end. Some take these verses and try and tie them into the end-time tribulation period, and they say that the church will go through this and the ones who shall endure to the end, they will be saved. They say that you have to endure to the end of the tribulation. But that is not the proper context of these scriptures.
In Matthew 10:22, Jesus is speaking to His 12 Apostles. This is the training of the 12 which is outlined for us in Verses 16-42. Jesus is not speaking about people enduring through the end time tribulation. In Verse 22, Jesus says, "And ye (the twelve) shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He's speaking to the 12.
Both Jesse & I agreed with you that Strongs #5278 for 'endure' is correct. And that word is 'hupomeno'. However, the word 'endure' is not just a word on its own, but is qualified by the words, "that shall endure". Here, Jesse would give a better explanation of Greek grammar, but the word 'hupomeno' is no longer just an 'endurance' (which it certainly is), but in those verses, it changes to 'hypomeinas', to give the intended meaning by the writer. So, what you should be reading in the verses, is not just 'endurance to the end', but 'having endured to the end'; and this now gives our reading a different perspective. Where a cursory reading would imply 'one can only be saved if he endures to the end', a proper reading would assert the 'one who is saved will endure to the end'.
Leaving those verses aside & just thinking of an English example to give you (which is unrelated to the verses); if I said to you, as passenger in my car, 'a car is coming right behind me', or expressed it this way, 'a car is right behind me', I'm sure you would pick up on the nuance, exactly where the other car is positioned, apart from the look on my face. Even though 'coming' is understood as to where the car is approximately located, how I express its correct position helps you understand if we are in imminent danger of being hit.
Re: 1 Peter 1:7. Peter is writing to the strangers (Christian sojourners (of the diaspora) in Asia Minor), who were going through 'manifold temptations' for their faith - faithfully living in a pagan & hostile society; as also in 1 Peter 3:14-17. Also, the coming trials ( 1 Peter 4:12-19) upon them & Christians throughout the world generally. Their faith was already on test, not just prior to Christ's coming, but having come through their present & future trials, their victory would be to their credit & Christ's recognition. GBU.
10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."
That would mean the gospel would be published in different languages so the people of "all nations" could read God's Word. God knew His word would be in many many different languages including English. And, God kept His Word pure.
I don't believe God expects people to know Hebrew and Greek to "really" understand and get the true meaning of His Word. He made His Word available to all. Praise the Lord! Thanks for your post Jimbob, God bless
Just a little there are many parts, and this subject is hard, what we are looking for when the end comes only will affect those who are living when it starts, if it is today, are we ready? We should study it with 1 Cor. 8:2 in mind. Jesus's return is after, Satan is cast down, the beast, the false prophet, with his 3.5 years given him Rev. 13:5.
I think most agree it is the gathering together of the elect, saints, chosen and faithful, who will be in the first resurrection, whether we use Matt. 24:29-31 Mark 13:24-27 1 Thess. 4:16-17 1 Cor. 15:51-53 or Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 19:11-15 it is the gathering together. Where is the destination?
Most will also agree we through Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God, Rom. 5:9 and we are not appointed to wrath 1 Thes. 5:9. Where do the elect go after the gathering and thinking that the white throne judgment is for just the lost, causes division? Are we gathered and taken to heaven, or do we come back down here on earth to reign with Jesus? This earth is round so we see in 1Thes. 4:14 to Jerusalem.
Jesus is coming to carry out the wrath and those in the first resurrection are to reign with Christ on earth, Rev. 20:1-4. We see Jesus brings the wrath, Rev. 19:11-21, also, it is pictured in Rev. 6:14-17, and Rev. 11:15-18, the seventh and last trump.
God has placed Jesus above all until the last enemy is under His feet and destroyed and that will be death, 1 Cor. 15:24-26 Rev. 20:13-14. In Zech. 14:4 When Jesus returns, He will stand on the Mount of Olives where He ascended. The meeting Him in the air is the delegation of saints gathered together to welcome our King back to this earth, and the camp, the gathering of the saints will be around Jerusalem, where He will reign from Rev. 20:9 not to go back from where He came.
After Jesus returns, we see the vials poured out in Rev. 16.
Is there any verse in the Bible that says at any time we go to heaven?
God bless,
RLW
Paul is clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that there will be a great apostasy WITHIN THE CHURCH when believers will desert the faith or be deceived by the workings of Satan.
Perhaps many who believer the Pre-Trib rapture deception will be strong enough to stand against the deception of the Antichrist and endure the sufferings , persecution, and martyrdom of the Tribulation without losing faith or denouncing Christ. But Id do think that many who do think that they will be raptured prior to the Tribulation will indeed be deceived and turn from faith, as Paul says in this Scripture citation. Some are still new believers and/or are not very robust or mature in their faith.
The possibility of many falling away when Tribulation comes because they expected to be raptured will manifest in the day of trouble. So, yes, it is a salvation issue if people are deceived into thinking they will be spared from the Tribulation and Antichrist through a pre-trib rapture and then fall away when they are not raptured, finding themselves in the Tribulation times and under the deception of the Antichrist or the temptation to acquiesce by taking the mark to preserve their own lives. This could also happen to those who do not believe in the pre-trib rapture as well.
This is why we are warned by Jesus to be watchful, prayerful, prepared, and faithful to endure to the very end.
Matt. 10:22 Matt. 24:13 Matt. 26:41 Mark 13:35
I did know that dispensationalists use the passage in 2 Thessalonians for as proof for the rapture doctrine. I just say that I believe it describes Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation.
I will say that I am convinced of my position on this just as you are. If I am dogmatic, then you are also, to be fair.
And lastly, I know you ask me to cite Scripture for my thinking. I would if I were beginning a thread on this topic, but Scriptures have been thrown around on this thread repeatedly. For me, when someone explains their belief on a topic, I take it up my self to search the Scriptures to see if what one says aligns with what God has revealed. I urge you and others to do the same. There are so many Scriptures that say that people will be raised on the "last day" and that Jesus returns after the tribulation.
John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24 are but a few. Also Job 19:25 Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27----therefore the rapture does not happen before the tribulation. All believers are gathered to Christ after the tribulation when they are either resurrected or translated into their glorified bodies.
My understanding 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is the same event as Matt. 24:30-31 1 Cor. 15:52 and verses in Revelation (the second coming of Jesus). In Revelation John covers different aspects of the same events in different chapters not in order. Rev. 10:7 in the days of the seventh trumpet, the mystery of God should be finished.
Rev. 11:15-19, the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord." This is the same event as we see in Rev. 19:11-16. All of these are the same event, the last trumpet sounds to announce His coming and the first resurrection who will reign with Jesus on earth, not carried to heaven.
When Jesus returns and the armies which were in heaven that followed, are angels, the saints were not in heaven. Matt. 25:31 Matt. 13:39 Mark 13:26-27. The resurrected chosen and faithful from around the world will meet Jesus in the air on the way down to Israel and Jerusalem.
Then we see the bowls of wrath in Rev. 16. In Rev. 19:17-18 the angel called the fowls to the supper of the great God. Rev. 19:19-21 The battle of Armageddon. Then the beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire, Satan is chained in the bottomless pit, and those in the first resurrection will reign with Jesus for one thousand years.
The marriage of the Lamb, the marriage supper, the bride, and the bride of the Lamb is only mentioned in Revelation. Rev. 19:7 Rev. 21:2 Rev 21:9 Rev. 22:17. When? It will be after all is made new, and where? It will be on the new earth. Jesus said this at the Last Supper, Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25, and what the Spirit and bride said in Rev. 22:17.
I know my understanding may be different than yours and others, I could say more but this should show my understanding of this. I am thankful for this site and the brothers and sisters on it to be able to respectfully discuss the Bible.
I hope this answers your questions,
God bless,
RLW
Mark 13:20 'elect', I believe applies to the elect among Israel, in its context of the chapter. But of course, after the Gospel is brought to the Gentiles, we too join the elect of God ( Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2), but Jesus directed His message to the Jews of His day.
Revelation 13:7,8: are these saints the ones living at the time of revelation of the beast on Earth, or are they the 'new believers' who have turned to Christ, rejecting the beast? And the Lamb's Book of Life, does it record all believers now & into the future, or only adds to the record those who are being saved by the Blood of the Lamb? Moot questions for sure.
Revelation 20:4-6: "This is the first resurrection". The Rapture of the Church (i.e. which includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ) & the resurrection of the tribulation saints are not the same. The Rapture is not a part of the First Resurrection (some have included them together, referring to it as two phases of the one). The Rapture is the catching away of believers to be with the Lord in Glory. The First Resurrection is for the tribulation saints who have died for Christ & will reign with Him through the Millennium. The scenarios are different hence cannot be the same. So, should not the Rapture then be called the First Resurrection? Apparently not, as that is the secret coming of Jesus to take away His Church from the Wrath to come. Blessings.
This form of self-transformation is also referred to as self-righteousness ( Romans 10-3), while in truth you follow after a image of a false god and a false Christ ( Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22; Gal. 4:8; Rev. 12:9). This is how Satan has transformed himself into an angel of light ( 2 Cor. 11:13-15) and deceived the whole world ( Rev. 12:9), as people by nature are in fact children of the devil ( Acts 13:10).
Gal. 1:11,12. The gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ ( Daniel 12:4,9; Amos 3:7; Matthew 16:17; Luke 2:26; Romans 16:25; 1 Cor. 2:10; Gal. 1:16; Eph. 3:3,5; Rev. 1:1).
The Word of God is God ( John 1:1) and the scriptural references we use serve as confirmation that it is not us that speak, but the Spirit of our Father that speaketh in us ( 2 Samuel 23:2; Matthew 10:20; Acts 4:8; 6:10).
Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it ( Matthew 7:14).
Seek, and ye shall find ( Matthew 7:7).
1 Thessalonians 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Matthew 24:40-41
Luke 17:35
Revelation 3:10
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
John 14:3
Mark 13:32 says not even Jesus knows the day of when the end will be. So, be ready.
Please know "rapture" is not in the Bible, please read & study for yourself, Truth 2Timothy 2:15,
Job 14:12-14, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2Thessalonians 2,
Revelation 10:7, Revelation 6:9-17, notice Jesus says Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13,
Hopefully these are helpful
Sometimes Hebrews 12:7
Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, James 5:11,
Hopefully these are encouraging to you, as your words & scriptures were to me, thank you
Psalms 34:19
Luke 21:12-15, context Luke 21, Matthew 10:16-20, context Matthew 10, Mark 13:9-11, context Mark 13,
Luke 12:8, 2Timothy 3:12, Romans 8:22-39
Hopefully these strengthen you
Sorry for my delayed answer. About "genea" brother Chris said it right. If you have a look at Matthew 1:17 it says "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations." The grk for "generations" here in the grk text is "geneai" (plural for genea). In anc grk it also means race, nationality, place of birth, descent, etc. GBU
Here's the word generations in Hebrew pulled from Genesis 5:1.
Hebrew:
Transliteration: tledh tledh
Pronunciation: {to-led-aw'} to-led-aw'
Definition: From H3205; (plural only) {descent} that {is} family; (figuratively) history: - {birth} generations.
And here it is in greek.
Greek:
Transliteration: genea
Pronunciation: ghen-eh-ah'
Definition: From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age generation nation time.
(The period of the persons.)
I didn't see that!
I always took it as the age of ALL those living at that time.
But the time period for the Jews does fit the context of the Chapter.
And it fits the view that the main focus of this period is on Israel.
GB.
Again, we both agree in part. I think where we may differ is with the word generation (GENEA), where I understand Jesus to be referring to a race of people (Jews), and you say that you consider it as a time period which can not be indentified exactly.
I know you have a knowledge of the Greek language and I do appreciate that because it gives me an avenue of learning if I might need a better understanding of certain words.
The word in question is GENEA. In my studies, I am struggling to associate this word with time at all. Everything I have studied on this word tells me that Jesus was talking about a race of people, specifically the Jews, when He said this generation (GENEA) will not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.
It looks like we are in agreement, in part. I also do not believe Jesus meant a specific number of years when He said "this generation."
In fact, the word used (GENEA) has nothing to do with years at all. It has to do with a race, or kind of people.
When Jesus said this generation shall not pass, He was referring specifically about the Jewish race.
I am a little confused (not hard to do) by you saying you do not believe Jesus was speaking about a certain number of years, but in your explanation, you seem to be implying years, or a time frame.
Am I just misunderstanding you?
..... Romans 9:8 That is They which are the Children of the flesh, These are not the Children of God...But the Children of Promise are counted for that good seed...Who are the Children of Promise ?...The H.G. Spirits as Jesus said that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit...Our new innerman is our fruit unto God the H.G...Behold mine elect in whom my soul is well pleased I have put my spirit on him he shall shew judgement unto the Gentiles...Its only the H.G. the gift of God that is Gods elect...These things are hid from the wise and prudent but revealed unto Babes and sucklings Jesus offspring...The contents of the book his words of LIFE...An Israel of God...The regeneration of the H.G....Is Jesus generation..Behold me and the Children the lord has given me...ok lemme go
My belief about that is (but I wouldn't bet my head on it).
I don't think that Jesus meant a specific number of years (40, 60, whatever) when He said about a generation. I believe a generation is a literal generation, I will explain. The signs described by Jesus start when a nation starts fighting another nation, a general war, a world war ( Matthew 24:7). Assuming that that is WW2 that started in 1939, then people who were born in that date are now 83 years old. A lot of people from that generation are still alive, and people can get even older than 100 or more (even more than 110) years old. So there is still time, but not that much. In that generation's time the 7 year period of antichrist is included as well, so actually we are running short of time fast. But as I said I wouldn't bet my life on that theory. GBU
..... Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness that we have done but by his mercy he saved us...By the washing and REGENERATION of the H.G.
.....That last generation is his (Jesus) GENERATION...Thats when the woman becomes pregnant for his Children, The Children of Promise,The H.G. are the Children of PROMISE....Our New Heart n New Spirit...As that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit ...
....Which is the H.G. The Israel of God...That Heavenly Jacob..Read Romans 9:8 KJV
There have been books written just on the meaning of this one word, GENEA. It is where we get our word "generate" from. A generation (GENEA) does not mean birth, or a specific number of years, but a kind or race of people. That is what it means.
Some have said that GENEA, and they have written books on it, and once they got our money and found out it wasn't true, they proceeded to write other books and people bought them.
They said that GENEA means or stands for 40 years. They said that "generation" means 40 years. So according to them, 40 is always associated with generation, so the word generation to them meant 40 years, and they said that since Israel became a nation in 1948 that Christ is coming back in 1988. You know, just add 40 years.
Pretty simple right? Well, about $5 million later in the bank, somebody goes "oops, I guess I was wrong. I'll just write another book!"
The generation is the Jews. This generation, meaning this people, they are not going to pass away until all things are fulfilled. They are my chosen people, the elect.
Hope this helps!
What is the meaning of "this generation" in this context?