"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23 KJV
"And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." Luke 18:27 KJV
As a believer, I, believe God concerning your prayer petition before God, and that,
"... he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5 KJV
"O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah." Psalms 84:8 KJV
As a believer, I stand in agreement that God hears and answers prayers, Amen.
Transfiguration of Jesus at the mount throws up light beyond the glorious body, a building of God eternal in heavens. The disciples going to Emmaus would not have recognized the risen Jesus but they did and it had to do with the word. " Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"( Luke 24:31-32). When Jesus opened their eyes they did know it was he indeed.
Then we have the mount itself to consider. "And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them."(v.2). As with the Sermon on the mount we have the high mountain which is the testimony of God and Jesus as the rock cut not with hands, signifying we are looking at the Word become flesh.
Mark mentions Moses and Elias " and they were talking with Jesus."(v.24). When Jesus explained the word of God to Cleopas and his companion, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." ( Luke 24:27) Luke elsewhere gives an additional insight to the transfiguration."And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:/Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem." Moses and Elias and Jesus are the three in glory in that specific moment of transfiguration while the three disciples, Peter James and John were in their physical bodies. In short, the Transfiguration is clear illustration of two worlds of the Spirit and of the flesh and blood operating simultaneously. The word concerning him sets prophets serving outside the timescale as we know the term. For this reason Jesus speaks of Elias,"But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him." (v.13) The ministry of Elias and Moses were as a double Jesus Christ
"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us./ But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me./For he that is not against us is on our part." Lucan gospel also gives this incident.( Luke 9:48-50)
Principle of Association is reconciling all things in heaven and on earth. "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."(Col.1:10) The Mind of Christ is to see in his light so his name is preeminent whether persons places or events, whichever is named is subject to him. For this reason he rebuked Peter who was viewing his master as one who must be protected from all harm. "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."(7:33)
Jesus Christ was anointed the Christ above all others." Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre./Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."(Ps.45:6-7) As a Son he chose all those who were called and as the Son of man he made manifest grace and truth. So he would after transfiguring before the three disciple tell them, "And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead."(v.9)
The disciples did not understand its significance. They had to go a longway in their discipleship.
Mark states the principle of Association which is in an altered from than what is presented by St Matthew. "And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them," Jesus sets a child representing the twelve and St Matthew presents the principle accordingly, before he sent them to preach, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." (Matt.10:40). Jesus taking the child in his arms is how we are set in his hands so both Gospels are referring the selfsame idea. In terms of the quality God set his name every other name because he was a child in his obedience. Putting on the mind of Christ is therefore proving your parentage. At the mount of Transfiguration he received the testimony of his Father, "And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."(v.7). The earth and the fulness thereof belong to God which makes all things in heaven and on earth by him consist. "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." therefore is not to be measured by earthly time but as set forth in the divine Will. As the Word which was from the beginning ( John 1:1) it pleased God that in him should all Fullness dwell.
"And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."(v.4) Demonstrative of this we have Moses and Elias meeting Jesus at the mount. Before the Advent of Jesus they were sent as stand in for him and while at the mount their roles are reversed! It is how the two worlds of the Spirit and of the flesh and blood revolve about a stationary point of the Son and of the Son of man. Now we shall understand why Jesus said, in vv.38-39. His disciples did not have this 360 degree view while Jesus understood his name before which all knees should bow (Ph.2:5-9) rose above their partisan spirit. They still had a long way to go .
Here we have a saying that must prove as Euclid's Elements proposed pons asinorum for the medieval students; and here we have one as similar for those who approach the word of God by intellect and explain the meanings literally. Here are three injunctions stated by Jesus Christ: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off" (v.43) secondly, "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off" (v.45) and finally, And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out."(v.47). The Spirit gives the same formula after the three sayings that makes it special and to be understood as of grave importance. In v.44,v.46 and in v.48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.". Seven messages to the churches end with the same line, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;."(Re.2:7). If the formula is specifically applied to the churches what shall we make of Jesus gives at the end of the Parable of the Sower? "And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."(4:9,23;Matt.13:9) "It is to his disciples unto whom grace is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. This formula forms a hedge about, a caveat for whosoever would want to enter the kingdom of God. In this context the Spirit while presenting the 'seven days' from the everlasting covenant in Ge.Ch.1 we have this at the end of each 'day', "And the evening and the morning were...".(1:5,8,13,19,23,31). Where was these leading us to? "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Seventh day explains that He blessed whosoever would enter therein in his Son.(Ge.2:3) The hand foot and the eye refers to the body of the church or the Bride. Hence both gospels of St Mark and Matthew sets these sayings in context of offending 'these little ones that believe in me"(9:41-42; Matt.18:6)
"Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another."
Salt is compared to life which could be lived to no purpose or to life abundant. The word of God warned Lot and his family to go forward but Mrs Lot would rather live in the past. "Remember Lot's wife," serves as a warning to all those who holds no vision as Abraham has had. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." He.11:10. So living in tents as pilgrims and sojourners his vision ever led him forth so much so heaven in the Parable of Jesus is compared to Abraham's bosom.
In vv28-50 the Spirit mentions the house as separate from the world. "And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?" As with parables the mysteries were not for those who had no appreciation for the saltiness of their soul. Killing time in mindless pursuits is what they call as having good time. From the edge of their lost contents they may sent postcards telling,'wish you were here!'. In the house the disciples would press their masters for answers so they did have a sound base upon which they could build up, "Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another."
vv.33-34 There was oneupmanship among them. How often did they forget that they could nothing without their master? The house is a synonym for abiding life as in the Parable of the 'I am the true vine.' ( John 15:3) They were yet to understand the principle of Association. Charity of giving a glass of water is in the connection between the one in need and God in heaven. "Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me." False shepherds wax eloquent over 1 Co.13 and let not their Jesus talk fool anyone. Without abiding life in Christ it is for their own glory.
"And I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not./He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me."
Jesus' call,"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me," includes not only the twelve but whosoever is called, and according to the scriptures (which hinges on the blessings spelt forth in the covenant,) is expected to respond.The living soul would mean whosoever valued truth above what is seen or temporal so life of the Spirit sets the polestar for his onward voyage. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."(Re.22:16). It is thus the inner man presents the gospel to man. Faith with works renders him hold Jesus Christ as the Captain of his salvation and run the race so the only life he seeks is beyond life of the senses. Peter merely responded to the question and answered correctly, "Thou art the Christ."(8:29) Shortly there after he shows he was still struggling to find his feet in the matter of discipleship. Rebuking him Jesus said,"for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."(8:33). Peter and the rest had a long way to go but the promise was that they lived by grace, from his fullness. Wherever they fumbled Jesus was ther as in the case of the demon possessed boy, Jesus would say, "bring him unto me".
"Let him deny himself" also meant the disciples were amenable to correction. "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."( John 3: 21). Peter had to bear his cross, and denial of Christ was in the past for Jesus forgave his lapse and placed the flock under his care. "Whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."
"And how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought." (v.12)
This key verse shall explain this saying of Jesus. It also tells how vital was for the multitude that he called them as well as his disciples, so it goes to the very core of the kingdom of God. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it./For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"(8:34-36). For my sake and for the gospel's sake is distinct from the Son for whom 'this day' is decreed. (Ps.2:7) So the gospel and the Word become flesh, the Son of man fulfills the provision of 'the seven days' in the everlasting covenant.
What God has sanctified covers the body of Christ and the duration of which is 'this day'. God was from the beginning and the Word was with him. Because of Adam and his disobedience sin entered into the world so with obedience what Jesus proved was the excellence of the soul which is the earnest of divine sovereignty of soul. Life of the vile body cannot let go "I will" So when the pomp and circumstance of the king of Tyre wants to impose his will he proves to whom he holds affinity. His will worship sets him as the son of perdition. "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire./Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ez.28:14-16; "I will be like the most High./Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell."-Is.14:14-15)
God made man a living soul, and the life is what the Word become flesh made manifest. Humility of Jesus set at nought his own body after the likeness of men. So redemption of one's soul has only single way into the kingdom of God. "I am the Way" Ph.2:5-9)
"That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
St Matthew also gives this and both converge to the transfiguration of Jesus, the baseline on which whosoever enters into the kingdom of God shall have in common. Both gospels give the tag, 'After six days' is where the Son and the Son of man merges in terms of the Word. Thus when Jesus holds his disciples to secrecy it is to the spiritual body that awaits him. In short Peter James and John representing all his brethren/Associates are given a preview of this kingdom coming with power. "for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."( Luke 12:32). Little flock, servants, associates are stages of development in the life of anyone who wants to follow the Son of man. By the same token Moses Elias David,Isaiah Ezekiel John serve as double for the Son of man since God had foreknown them 'according to the scriptures' so what they said or did was in obedience to the Son who was the Word. At this high mountain where Jesus transfigured was a foretaste of what was to come. Coming with power also was within the frame of reference to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That makes Joel also as a double. In short principle of Association is like a stone thrown in a pool causes the ripple widening to fill the whole extent. The bread from heaven cast forth in Ec.11:1-2 refers to the Son of man.
Bearing our cross and following him we enter the kingdom with power so our spiritual bodies, a building of God eternal in heavens we are to keep in sights. The same transfiguration as Jesus made manifest is our earnest as with the indwelling Spirit is our confidence."For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."(2 Co.5:4-5)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ( Rev. 21:8)
Unbelieving: The first verse that comes to mind here is the man with a son that had a demon possessed son who was being thrown into water; etc. That passage is Mark 9:24 and the whole incident is worth reading to understand further how there was rampant lack of faith as well as preparation for casting out the demon. REALIZING we have unbelief results from the Holy Spirit changing us; it is not what is often a false gospel of not having faith enough for a family member to be healed; or some power trip by a ministry more interested in notoriety and ultimately greedy for gain with someone given a title of "healer". We can say at the time of Christ it was indeed foolish not to believe He could work any miracles including bringing one back from death; because it was only rejecting His claim of Divinity that a person could reject Him which shows the depths of blindness of the Pharisees. The core issue which remains the same is the fact that we are all as "filthy rags" ( Isaiah 64:6) and this includes our so called "good deeds".
Abominable: Luke 16:15 shows what men hold as esteemed is an abomination before God. To esteem something shows a sort of prideful mentality; acclaim and praise is something Christ warned about in numerous passages (see Luke 6:26; another passage in this book as one example). Even calling Christ good implies that he as a mere man or prophet is good; and Christ makes it clear only God alone is good ( Mark 10:18). This is what is so dangerous about anyone who men praise; not only do they almost always practice false theology but we are convinced our own righteousness will justify us in the day of judgment.
No wonder Satan appearing as an angel of light fools lost souls ( 2 Cor. 11:14).
Today in Sunday school someone mentioned that before prayer it is good to say "Lord I don't love you; or other people (fill in the blank). Alas some with a spiritual gift of compassion would find what I am saying repulsive. We all can apply this principle to scripture reading as well "help me with my unbelief" ( Mark 9:24); or "God be merciful to me a sinner" ( Luke 18:13).
Since we are reading the "living Word" ( John 1:1) it behooves us to focus on our Lord and Savior and how much He suffered for our benefit. It also is important that we trust the Lord and also His Word as being truth and something we can lean on. Trusting in the Lord and not our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-6) is something we need to discuss in more detail.
Assuming we have a legitimate faith and basic understanding that the Bible is the truth and we live on that premise we could say that we trust the Lord. That of course is easier said than done; we can suddenly find ourselves overwhelmed by circumstances and allow our emotions to dictate through either a "fight or flight" mentality. This is true if we face martyrdom or serious persecution; but as with anything else the Lord usually leads us through the valleys of everyday trials and stresses to teach us to trust Him more for those big things. We can look at scripture for these examples with the 12 Apostles and their growth through Christ's earthly ministry then after Pentacost; or look at the kings of Israel with all their sins exposed for us to see.
There are a few who don't have sins mentioned; it is noteworthy that only Moses seems to be a Prophet whose sins were mentioned and the consequence of not being able to enter the Promised Land. David technically prophesied as well about the Messiah in the Psalms in particular and his personal sins and immediate consequences out the for us to see. These; of course are examples for us all ( 1 Cor. 10:11).
The Spirit refers to God as He "who maketh clouds his chariot". (Is.19:1; Ps 104:3) Singularity of the Spirit renders the clouds as visible form of the invisible aspect of God. This also serve as witnesses an in the vision of Daniel, " I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."( Dan 7:13)
(See entry under B: Behold)
We have another instance where the clouds serve as witness. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him."(Re.1:7).
Whenever a voice from heaven testified Jesus as 'my beloved Son' symbolic presence of God was in a bright cloud. "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.(Matt.17:5) ( Mark 9:7). When the rider on the white horse finally appears in Re.19 the cloud is conspicuous by absence. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."(Re.19:11). Instead we have an army of saints in white.
2.
Cloud is the glory of God when manifested. His strength is in the clouds (Ps.68:34). Stephen "looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,"(Ac.7:55-56) This Father Son relationship is transcribed into tokens explain the spiritual significance of the clouds. Clouds a natural phenomena doubles as a sign.
Glory of the word that stretched the skies was present at the dedication of the Temple.(Is.40:22) In order to instruct us the Spirit sets the cloud as a sign there. God set His approval when King Solomon dedicated it to him.", that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,/ So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud."(1 Ki.8:10-12)
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not MOSES and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way they (the church) call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers; believing ALL THINGS written in the LAW and the PROPHETS.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came many unto him in his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM of GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses,and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Most don't believe ALL THINGS written in MOSES and the PROPHETS.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this honoru hath all his saints.
Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgements (administered by the saints) are in the earth (second resurrection), the world WILL LEARN righteousness.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world SHALL REMEMBER (when they are resurrected and judged by the saints) AND TURN (repent) unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Isaiah 66:24 And they (the saints) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their (the saints) WORM shall not die; neither shall their (the saints') FIRE be quenched, and they (the saints) shall be and abhorring to all flesh.
Job 25:6 And much less man, that is a worm?and the son or man WHICH IS A WORM.
Psalms 22:6 .... But I am a worm .....
Mark 9:46 Where their WORM dieth not, nor is the FIRE quenched.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 13:34 ... and without a parable he spake he not unto them......
The whole word of God is Christ speaking.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will open my DARK SAYINGS of the harps (his people)
Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.
Mark 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Thank you Shabbat Keeper for coming back to me. I'll respond to your three recent posts to me with my one here.
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
Don't know where you get your teaching Elijiah serves as a double for the Son. Not bible. John the Baptist had the sane spirit as Elijiah which means he had the same words. Elijiah himself did not come down to John the Baptist, John had the same spirit as Elijiah. Elijiah visited Jesus and he will be coming back with Moses according to Revelation 11:6. Elijiah did not physically serve as a double for Jesus. That is like saying your earthly mother is serving as a double for your sister. It don't work that way. Samething in the bible. It is the spirit of words Elijiah that people had and not his person.
Rev 11:6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Malachi 4:5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Matthew 17:10] And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
[11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
[12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
[13] Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Mark 9:4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
[7] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
1John 1:3 John was speaking on the other side of the baptizmal of the Christ, he knew in power of being dead unto sin,
& the power of the resurrection of Christ within Him, joining Him to Christ & the Father John 17:21-24 in a consummate intimate fellowship which he explains to His children "that your joy maybe full, which they had & are experiencing in a measure; as they continue in the working out of their salvation, steadfast & confident unto the end.
We ourselve experience an increase in joy of this fellowship as He takes away our sin, & we don't return to them. His Presence increases in our lives, receving more of His Spirit by the hearing & obedience of Faith, which gives & increases us in what John say later "an understanding" 1John 5:20 & a part of this understanding is Philippians 4:13 which we have received.
Could non-believers read this epistles & become believers, of course; Mark 9:23 This is the heart of God Isa 49:6Acts 13:47
Thank you for your reply. I will first point out where the holy bible doesn't agree with you. As we all understand Christ required faith in order to Heal people Matthew 17:20 KJV, so in essence it was peoples Faith that allowed Christ to heal. Yet, Christ is merciful whereas the law is unmerciful, so Christ understanding that it isn't about "all or nothing" concerning matters of faith therefore Christ requires only a "mustard seed" of faith (i.e. something that will grow into great faith!) Therefore, Christ gives this example: "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23 KJV And the man whom Christ was talking to admitted something very Profound: "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:24 KJV Then Christ cast out the demon. You see Bennymkje, if what you say is true then any unbelief wouldn't allow Christ to heal someone, yet God is merciful because sometimes The Journey is just as important as The Destination. Remember Grace, for we are under Grace Today, while it is still Today!
I'm sorry Rainwalker, the belief in a literal Hell & a literal eternal torment for those who have rejected God & His Christ is not an idea from the dark ages nor from the Vatican - this is Scripture & plenty of them to support it. It's how one chooses to read, understand & accept the teachings from the Word that is in question - the Word does not change.
Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! ( Luke 7:34).
And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. ( Luke 15:31:32).
I have combined these verses to show the meaning of another verse ( Mark 2:19) which shows how with the bridegroom (Christ) present the Disciples couldn't fast but they would later on. Now of course that doesn't mean that they shouldn't fast such as what they lacked in Mark 9:29 for deliverance; what it DOES mean is that the joy of being present with the Lord when they were communing together resulted in enjoying meals together; like the Prodigal Son should have had with his father and restored brother.
Since we normally don't have "love feasts" together ( 1 Cor. 11:20-34) it may be a foreign concept but probably should be present in churches today or would often be a helpful concept. Nonetheless; for purposes here let us just refer to any communal meals we partake with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. IF; and I say that emphatically we are ever to imbibe in alcoholic beverages it should be to enjoy the celebration with family or trusted friends and of course praise and worship of God.
We also; of course have to abstain if we or anyone else present is known to have a problem with drinking.
The company we keep also in Christ's example was NOT swaying Him to sin but the Lord was clearly in charge of conversations.
I previously mentioned the lambasting Christ did to the Pharisees when they invited Him over for a meal; that happened more than once but never as clearly as in Luke 11; and Matthew 23. He certainly would be perceived as a most rude houseguest!!!!
We all like Paul have times of plenty and want; feasting and fasting more or less.
Matt 24:3 " the disciples asks, what shall be the sign of Thy coming & the end of the world?
Matt 24 Jesus explains to His disciples the signs of His coming
Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are with Him in present tense. Verily I say unto you!
Matt 24:4 & said unto them, let no man deceive you Matt 24:15 when ye shall see the abomination of desolation
Matt 24:23 then if any man say unto you, lo here is Christ. Matt 24:25 Behold I have told you Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you. Matt 24:33 when ye see all these things Matt 24:44 therefore be ye also ready
Matt 24:34,35
Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away till all this things be fulfilled, Heaven & earth shall pass away but My word shall not pass away, This was the generation 2000 yrs ago that shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.
Matt 16:28Mark 9:1 standing there with Him then, saw the Kingdom come in Power
Friends, Christ word out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & beliefs concerning His 2nd Coming.
If we look at the time after Jesus was in the wilderness and began His public ministry; we see what begins as a few healings and public teachings in His hometown appear to rapidly grow with travel to surrounding areas where He cast out devils and did many healings. As late as Matthew 16:20 Jesus told to His Disciples not to tell anyone He was the Christ. The same instruction is in the Gospels of Mark as well as Luke. Jesus would speak Parables; eventually as the ONLY method of explaining these hidden truths to the general public. ( Matthew 13:13). This shows how deep the concept of Predestination is shown 2 verses later in Matthew 13:15 when He explains because of hard hearts they will not be given information needed to be saved. We must come to Christ on His terms; and at His drawing or prompting ( John 6:37). This concept also shows that Christ never was seeking acclamation and didn't want to be set up as King on this earth before the time either; without understanding that He had to be the suffering Savior first. When a man asked Jesus to help him with unbelief ( Mark 9:24) we need to keep in mind that when on earth He was able to raise men from the dead; today we need to trust that He has power over death; hell and sin but we don't have any certainty that He will use a person to perform a healing through the power of the Spirit today. Nonetheless we should ask the Lord in prayer all things which we will apart from those things which are just for our own selfish desires; He ever intercedes for us according to God's will ( Heb. 7:25). Finally; Jesus knew that mere facts wouldn't save anyone; as evidenced in the rich man's pleas from Hades in Luke 16:31; and all other instances Jesus was harassed for healing on a Sabbath Day-they couldn't ever deny the miracles but accused Him of working on the Sabbath and blasphemy declaring that He was the "I AM" ( John 8:58).
You state: Maybe "we can get to a state of sinlessness" as you say,
It is not as I say, it is Jesus in Matt 17:20 and John in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 and ultimately God, as the bible and all scripture if of God.
I'm accepting what God is telling us in these verses. These verses are tough Love, aren't meant to keep the sinful status quo, they are meant to wake us up! God does not want us to live the rest of our lives in sin.
You state: but if we don't in our lifetime, then we not only never had Christ abiding in us, but we actually belong to the devil, simply because we have committed even that one sin,
It is not just about "one sin". It's about a lifetime of continual sin. You must see this; if we continue to tell each other and believe we can never stop sinning, we will in fact lead a lifetime in sin.
If we commit one sin or multiple sins - at the time we commit that sin - we are not abiding in God. Anytime we are sinning we are Not abiding in God - we are abiding in Satan. If we repent and ask for forgiveness God will forgive us. But we must be sincere and stop the habitual repeating of sin.
You state: never finding freedom from it or any other sin. That would be an awful state to live in, if those verses are read & interpreted as given
Yes, I agree with you, that it is an awful state to live in sin, and these verses interpreted as given by God: are exactly meant to make us feel awful, hopefully to motivate us to really make changes, and work with Him and His Holy Spirit to rid ourselves of all sin. Is it better that we feel awful here on earth, if it promotes us to make the changes to accommodate Gods commands and receive His blessings ultimately winning the prize, and receiving eternal life in His Kingdom. Matt 18:22Mark 9:43
In summary: God tells us not to sin - throughout the bible. I do not see one place - that God tells us sin is acceptable to Him. If you do, please present the scripture.
Christ has already come & that in Spirit, He told His disciples; Mark 9:1; Matt 16:28; over 2000 yrs ago, which came in full power at Pentecost.
I will not leave you comfortless, but you will see me again, that your joy maybe full, & Christ doesn't come alone, He brings His Father within Him, They became Ephesians 2:22; John 17:21-23; & they Micah 4:3;
Hebrews 9:28; is Titus 2:11; diffusing the fragrance of His knowledge in every heart. 2Cor 4:6 This is Titus 2:13; describing His 2nd appearance in Spirit. Who continually gives of Himself that Titus 2:14;
As for this son of perdition; it's the old Adamic nature that is rule by Ephesians 6:12; who's coming 2Thessalonians 2:9; this spirit works even deceive the very elect, who, we all must engage with within 2 Cor 10:3-5; Jesus says; Matt 15:18,19; for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so their within us. Think about this, we all have these thoughts spring up within us, 1 Pet 4:3; thus Jesus commands; Luke 14:27; The ones, Satan does deceive is explain, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; they refuse to believe the Witness, whom God has place within conscience. John 16:8; John 12:47-50; Jesus says, 8:24; Therefore were He has gone one cannot go.
Both seeds are spiritual, both kingdoms are within mankind.
This rapture theory John 17:11:15 "not to take them out of the world". But describes receiving 1Pet 1:5-9;The cumulation is the Baptism of the Holy Spirt, describing 2 Cor 10:6; resulting from Titus 3:5; by 1Pet 1:23; unto John 3:3; the chaff, ( old man sin nature is thoroughly purges out without a trace, Daniel 2:34,35; these earthen vessels, 1Cor 15:48,49; ) the wheat (new man created in the image of Him that created him) is gather unto the Gardener, we're His & He's ours, Acts 1:9-11; Daniel 7:13;
It's a spiritual encounter & habitation with the One true God, John 17:24; here & now, Acts 4:32,33;
Do you perceive the wonderous honor & glory of God's Great Salvation, on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.
Luke 12:4-5
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.
Luke 16:22-25
Matt 25:41
Matt 3:12
Matt 25:46
Daniel 12:2
Mark 9:44-49
2 Thess 1:8-9
Rev 20:10
Rev 14:10-11
I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.
Proverbs 1:7
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Hello John. I respond to your question here bearing in mind the details of your other request. I can think of a couple of Scriptures that could speak a little on this. The first one is in Mark 9:17-27 (the account of the man who had a son with an evil spirit & the man's helplessness before Jesus). In verses 23 & 24 ("Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"). Here we see a father who seems to have tried everything to help his son & was desperate for Jesus' Help. And Jesus said, 'just have faith - just trust Me'. In great anguish, the father said he believed but that Jesus help him if he fell short of sufficient faith. Jesus doesn't give him extra faith - why? The father displayed faith in Jesus to do the healing - not in a doctor or another helper/disciple who might have previously failed him, but in this One called the Son of God Who had the Power to bring deliverance to his son. Jesus was not only this man's last hope, but his only hope & he trusted Him fully for complete healing.
The other passage is in 1 Corinthians 10:13: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." There were many temptations, trials, & sufferings that the Corinthian Christians faced, not only because they were Christians, but that they lived in a very pagan corrupt society. The apostle here is assuring them that their trials & temptations in life were not uncommon, but to His children, God will give them 'a way of escape'. It's true that God can remove the temptation or point us in a different direction to escape, but God's Spirit also gives us power to endure & bear up. Here too, we must exercise implicit faith for God to do as He Wills.
"And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." Luke 18:27 KJV
As a believer, I, believe God concerning your prayer petition before God, and that,
"... he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5 KJV
"O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah." Psalms 84:8 KJV
As a believer, I stand in agreement that God hears and answers prayers, Amen.
Transfiguration of Jesus at the mount throws up light beyond the glorious body, a building of God eternal in heavens. The disciples going to Emmaus would not have recognized the risen Jesus but they did and it had to do with the word. " Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"( Luke 24:31-32). When Jesus opened their eyes they did know it was he indeed.
Then we have the mount itself to consider. "And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them."(v.2). As with the Sermon on the mount we have the high mountain which is the testimony of God and Jesus as the rock cut not with hands, signifying we are looking at the Word become flesh.
Mark mentions Moses and Elias " and they were talking with Jesus."(v.24). When Jesus explained the word of God to Cleopas and his companion, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." ( Luke 24:27) Luke elsewhere gives an additional insight to the transfiguration."And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:/Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem." Moses and Elias and Jesus are the three in glory in that specific moment of transfiguration while the three disciples, Peter James and John were in their physical bodies. In short, the Transfiguration is clear illustration of two worlds of the Spirit and of the flesh and blood operating simultaneously. The word concerning him sets prophets serving outside the timescale as we know the term. For this reason Jesus speaks of Elias,"But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him." (v.13) The ministry of Elias and Moses were as a double Jesus Christ
"And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us./ But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me./For he that is not against us is on our part." Lucan gospel also gives this incident.( Luke 9:48-50)
Principle of Association is reconciling all things in heaven and on earth. "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;/And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."(Col.1:10) The Mind of Christ is to see in his light so his name is preeminent whether persons places or events, whichever is named is subject to him. For this reason he rebuked Peter who was viewing his master as one who must be protected from all harm. "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."(7:33)
Jesus Christ was anointed the Christ above all others." Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre./Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."(Ps.45:6-7) As a Son he chose all those who were called and as the Son of man he made manifest grace and truth. So he would after transfiguring before the three disciple tell them, "And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead."(v.9)
The disciples did not understand its significance. They had to go a longway in their discipleship.
Mark states the principle of Association which is in an altered from than what is presented by St Matthew. "And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them," Jesus sets a child representing the twelve and St Matthew presents the principle accordingly, before he sent them to preach, "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." (Matt.10:40). Jesus taking the child in his arms is how we are set in his hands so both Gospels are referring the selfsame idea. In terms of the quality God set his name every other name because he was a child in his obedience. Putting on the mind of Christ is therefore proving your parentage. At the mount of Transfiguration he received the testimony of his Father, "And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him."(v.7). The earth and the fulness thereof belong to God which makes all things in heaven and on earth by him consist. "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." therefore is not to be measured by earthly time but as set forth in the divine Will. As the Word which was from the beginning ( John 1:1) it pleased God that in him should all Fullness dwell.
"And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."(v.4) Demonstrative of this we have Moses and Elias meeting Jesus at the mount. Before the Advent of Jesus they were sent as stand in for him and while at the mount their roles are reversed! It is how the two worlds of the Spirit and of the flesh and blood revolve about a stationary point of the Son and of the Son of man. Now we shall understand why Jesus said, in vv.38-39. His disciples did not have this 360 degree view while Jesus understood his name before which all knees should bow (Ph.2:5-9) rose above their partisan spirit. They still had a long way to go .
Here we have a saying that must prove as Euclid's Elements proposed pons asinorum for the medieval students; and here we have one as similar for those who approach the word of God by intellect and explain the meanings literally. Here are three injunctions stated by Jesus Christ: "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off" (v.43) secondly, "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off" (v.45) and finally, And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out."(v.47). The Spirit gives the same formula after the three sayings that makes it special and to be understood as of grave importance. In v.44,v.46 and in v.48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.". Seven messages to the churches end with the same line, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;."(Re.2:7). If the formula is specifically applied to the churches what shall we make of Jesus gives at the end of the Parable of the Sower? "And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."(4:9,23;Matt.13:9) "It is to his disciples unto whom grace is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. This formula forms a hedge about, a caveat for whosoever would want to enter the kingdom of God. In this context the Spirit while presenting the 'seven days' from the everlasting covenant in Ge.Ch.1 we have this at the end of each 'day', "And the evening and the morning were...".(1:5,8,13,19,23,31). Where was these leading us to? "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Seventh day explains that He blessed whosoever would enter therein in his Son.(Ge.2:3) The hand foot and the eye refers to the body of the church or the Bride. Hence both gospels of St Mark and Matthew sets these sayings in context of offending 'these little ones that believe in me"(9:41-42; Matt.18:6)
"Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another."
Salt is compared to life which could be lived to no purpose or to life abundant. The word of God warned Lot and his family to go forward but Mrs Lot would rather live in the past. "Remember Lot's wife," serves as a warning to all those who holds no vision as Abraham has had. "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." He.11:10. So living in tents as pilgrims and sojourners his vision ever led him forth so much so heaven in the Parable of Jesus is compared to Abraham's bosom.
In vv28-50 the Spirit mentions the house as separate from the world. "And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?" As with parables the mysteries were not for those who had no appreciation for the saltiness of their soul. Killing time in mindless pursuits is what they call as having good time. From the edge of their lost contents they may sent postcards telling,'wish you were here!'. In the house the disciples would press their masters for answers so they did have a sound base upon which they could build up, "Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another."
vv.33-34 There was oneupmanship among them. How often did they forget that they could nothing without their master? The house is a synonym for abiding life as in the Parable of the 'I am the true vine.' ( John 15:3) They were yet to understand the principle of Association. Charity of giving a glass of water is in the connection between the one in need and God in heaven. "Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me." False shepherds wax eloquent over 1 Co.13 and let not their Jesus talk fool anyone. Without abiding life in Christ it is for their own glory.
"And I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not./He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me."
Jesus' call,"Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me," includes not only the twelve but whosoever is called, and according to the scriptures (which hinges on the blessings spelt forth in the covenant,) is expected to respond.The living soul would mean whosoever valued truth above what is seen or temporal so life of the Spirit sets the polestar for his onward voyage. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."(Re.22:16). It is thus the inner man presents the gospel to man. Faith with works renders him hold Jesus Christ as the Captain of his salvation and run the race so the only life he seeks is beyond life of the senses. Peter merely responded to the question and answered correctly, "Thou art the Christ."(8:29) Shortly there after he shows he was still struggling to find his feet in the matter of discipleship. Rebuking him Jesus said,"for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."(8:33). Peter and the rest had a long way to go but the promise was that they lived by grace, from his fullness. Wherever they fumbled Jesus was ther as in the case of the demon possessed boy, Jesus would say, "bring him unto me".
"Let him deny himself" also meant the disciples were amenable to correction. "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."( John 3: 21). Peter had to bear his cross, and denial of Christ was in the past for Jesus forgave his lapse and placed the flock under his care. "Whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."
"And how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought." (v.12)
This key verse shall explain this saying of Jesus. It also tells how vital was for the multitude that he called them as well as his disciples, so it goes to the very core of the kingdom of God. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it./For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"(8:34-36). For my sake and for the gospel's sake is distinct from the Son for whom 'this day' is decreed. (Ps.2:7) So the gospel and the Word become flesh, the Son of man fulfills the provision of 'the seven days' in the everlasting covenant.
What God has sanctified covers the body of Christ and the duration of which is 'this day'. God was from the beginning and the Word was with him. Because of Adam and his disobedience sin entered into the world so with obedience what Jesus proved was the excellence of the soul which is the earnest of divine sovereignty of soul. Life of the vile body cannot let go "I will" So when the pomp and circumstance of the king of Tyre wants to impose his will he proves to whom he holds affinity. His will worship sets him as the son of perdition. "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire./Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." (Ez.28:14-16; "I will be like the most High./Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell."-Is.14:14-15)
God made man a living soul, and the life is what the Word become flesh made manifest. Humility of Jesus set at nought his own body after the likeness of men. So redemption of one's soul has only single way into the kingdom of God. "I am the Way" Ph.2:5-9)
"That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."
St Matthew also gives this and both converge to the transfiguration of Jesus, the baseline on which whosoever enters into the kingdom of God shall have in common. Both gospels give the tag, 'After six days' is where the Son and the Son of man merges in terms of the Word. Thus when Jesus holds his disciples to secrecy it is to the spiritual body that awaits him. In short Peter James and John representing all his brethren/Associates are given a preview of this kingdom coming with power. "for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."( Luke 12:32). Little flock, servants, associates are stages of development in the life of anyone who wants to follow the Son of man. By the same token Moses Elias David,Isaiah Ezekiel John serve as double for the Son of man since God had foreknown them 'according to the scriptures' so what they said or did was in obedience to the Son who was the Word. At this high mountain where Jesus transfigured was a foretaste of what was to come. Coming with power also was within the frame of reference to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That makes Joel also as a double. In short principle of Association is like a stone thrown in a pool causes the ripple widening to fill the whole extent. The bread from heaven cast forth in Ec.11:1-2 refers to the Son of man.
Bearing our cross and following him we enter the kingdom with power so our spiritual bodies, a building of God eternal in heavens we are to keep in sights. The same transfiguration as Jesus made manifest is our earnest as with the indwelling Spirit is our confidence."For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."(2 Co.5:4-5)
Unbelieving: The first verse that comes to mind here is the man with a son that had a demon possessed son who was being thrown into water; etc. That passage is Mark 9:24 and the whole incident is worth reading to understand further how there was rampant lack of faith as well as preparation for casting out the demon. REALIZING we have unbelief results from the Holy Spirit changing us; it is not what is often a false gospel of not having faith enough for a family member to be healed; or some power trip by a ministry more interested in notoriety and ultimately greedy for gain with someone given a title of "healer". We can say at the time of Christ it was indeed foolish not to believe He could work any miracles including bringing one back from death; because it was only rejecting His claim of Divinity that a person could reject Him which shows the depths of blindness of the Pharisees. The core issue which remains the same is the fact that we are all as "filthy rags" ( Isaiah 64:6) and this includes our so called "good deeds".
Abominable: Luke 16:15 shows what men hold as esteemed is an abomination before God. To esteem something shows a sort of prideful mentality; acclaim and praise is something Christ warned about in numerous passages (see Luke 6:26; another passage in this book as one example). Even calling Christ good implies that he as a mere man or prophet is good; and Christ makes it clear only God alone is good ( Mark 10:18). This is what is so dangerous about anyone who men praise; not only do they almost always practice false theology but we are convinced our own righteousness will justify us in the day of judgment.
No wonder Satan appearing as an angel of light fools lost souls ( 2 Cor. 11:14).
Today in Sunday school someone mentioned that before prayer it is good to say "Lord I don't love you; or other people (fill in the blank). Alas some with a spiritual gift of compassion would find what I am saying repulsive. We all can apply this principle to scripture reading as well "help me with my unbelief" ( Mark 9:24); or "God be merciful to me a sinner" ( Luke 18:13).
Since we are reading the "living Word" ( John 1:1) it behooves us to focus on our Lord and Savior and how much He suffered for our benefit. It also is important that we trust the Lord and also His Word as being truth and something we can lean on. Trusting in the Lord and not our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-6) is something we need to discuss in more detail.
Assuming we have a legitimate faith and basic understanding that the Bible is the truth and we live on that premise we could say that we trust the Lord. That of course is easier said than done; we can suddenly find ourselves overwhelmed by circumstances and allow our emotions to dictate through either a "fight or flight" mentality. This is true if we face martyrdom or serious persecution; but as with anything else the Lord usually leads us through the valleys of everyday trials and stresses to teach us to trust Him more for those big things. We can look at scripture for these examples with the 12 Apostles and their growth through Christ's earthly ministry then after Pentacost; or look at the kings of Israel with all their sins exposed for us to see.
There are a few who don't have sins mentioned; it is noteworthy that only Moses seems to be a Prophet whose sins were mentioned and the consequence of not being able to enter the Promised Land. David technically prophesied as well about the Messiah in the Psalms in particular and his personal sins and immediate consequences out the for us to see. These; of course are examples for us all ( 1 Cor. 10:11).
Having a healthy fear of God (to come part 3
The Spirit refers to God as He "who maketh clouds his chariot". (Is.19:1; Ps 104:3) Singularity of the Spirit renders the clouds as visible form of the invisible aspect of God. This also serve as witnesses an in the vision of Daniel, " I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."( Dan 7:13)
(See entry under B: Behold)
We have another instance where the clouds serve as witness. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him."(Re.1:7).
Whenever a voice from heaven testified Jesus as 'my beloved Son' symbolic presence of God was in a bright cloud. "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.(Matt.17:5) ( Mark 9:7). When the rider on the white horse finally appears in Re.19 the cloud is conspicuous by absence. "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."(Re.19:11). Instead we have an army of saints in white.
2.
Cloud is the glory of God when manifested. His strength is in the clouds (Ps.68:34). Stephen "looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,"(Ac.7:55-56) This Father Son relationship is transcribed into tokens explain the spiritual significance of the clouds. Clouds a natural phenomena doubles as a sign.
Glory of the word that stretched the skies was present at the dedication of the Temple.(Is.40:22) In order to instruct us the Spirit sets the cloud as a sign there. God set His approval when King Solomon dedicated it to him.", that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,/ So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud."(1 Ki.8:10-12)
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, if they hear not MOSES and the PROPHETS, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose
from the dead.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto you, that after the way they (the church) call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers; believing ALL THINGS written in the LAW and the PROPHETS.
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, they came many unto him in his lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the KINGDOM of GOD, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses,and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Most don't believe ALL THINGS written in MOSES and the PROPHETS.
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgement written, this honoru hath all his saints.
Isaiah 26:9 ... for when thy judgements (administered by the saints) are in the earth (second resurrection), the world WILL LEARN righteousness.
Psalms 22:27 All the ends of the world SHALL REMEMBER (when they are resurrected and judged by the saints) AND TURN (repent) unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Isaiah 66:24 And they (the saints) shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me, for their (the saints) WORM shall not die; neither shall their (the saints') FIRE be quenched, and they (the saints) shall be and abhorring to all flesh.
Job 25:6 And much less man, that is a worm?and the son or man WHICH IS A WORM.
Psalms 22:6 .... But I am a worm .....
Mark 9:46 Where their WORM dieth not, nor is the FIRE quenched.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Matthew 13:34 ... and without a parable he spake he not unto them......
The whole word of God is Christ speaking.
Psalms 78:2 I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will open my DARK SAYINGS of the harps (his people)
God Bless you
This seems pretty clear to me and hard to misunderstand it unless someone tries to twist it.
If someone doesn't believe punishment is eternal then maybe someone should likewise question whether heaven is eternal, because this verse states them both as being everlasting / eternal.
The Bible says the soul will die, the 2nd death, perish, etc. But how do you know that's not the eternal part, or how can you prove that God allows someone to actually suffer without a soul, etc. Basically people are just speculating, and its not going to get very far.
But perhaps we can all agree that hell is bad and heaven is good? Hell is punishment and something to be avoided, and we need Jesus to avoid it. John 3:16 says this.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You can safely say some will be tormented day and night for ever and ever, because that's literally what this verse says.
Mark 9:43-48 - unquenching fire- you can safely say that hell isn't immediately going away, either. It's likely in full operation.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Daniel 12:1-2 ever lasting life vs ever lasting contempt
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 everlasting destruction. This might debunk the human reasoning idea that death or being destroyed must only happen in a short timeframe. This says it can happen 'ever lasting' which seems long term or eternal. So, this verse now explains all the other verses where it makes sense.
Revelation 14:11 smoke of their torment for ever and ever. That doesn't sound immediate or short term to me, but forever.
God bless you.
The fire that shall never be quenched means it is irreversible. Look at the remains of sodom and Gomorrah that can be seen today. There are outlines of the buildings in the area near the Dead Sea. Archeological proof of the wrath of God.
The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and its outlying towns have been a permanent destruction. This is an object lesson for us.
Mark 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
Firstly, on the name 'Gehenna', otherwise called the "Valley of Hinnom", the Encyclopaedia definition is quite correct about the purpose why that area was set aside. It was indeed a place for the burning of refuse & the dead. And yes, it meant that they were all annihilated - no more evidence except dust & ashes. So, it can mean 'annihilation', but Gehenna can also mean 'a place of burning where the fires are never quenched'. And we know that the body is disposed of there, but what about the immaterial parts of man that remains accountable to God? And you also referenced a verse I quoted in Matthew 10:28. Taken on its own, that verse could well support your belief of a complete extermination of body, soul & spirit.
But it was for that very reason that I gave you the other verses to look up & consider. Not only was Matthew 10:28 Jesus' Words, but also Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15. You didn't take these into account. And we know, as I trust you are conversant, that when we deal with a topic or a doctrine from the Bible, we need to take in all the references that deal specifically with it. Unfortunately, our natural human instinct is to accept only those that we find palatable or in agreement with, thus distorting the teaching from the Word.
So, if you would care to look at those other verses & see how they affect your understanding of Matthew 10:28, I would be very interested. It's only when we consider all verses on a subject, can we get a fuller picture of it meaning & its implications. However, sometimes there aren't too many verses to help us learn about the subject - in such cases we can't force a teaching by them & just leave the subject open. Yet, not so with these important doctrines of the Deity of Christ & human existence & punishment after death.
(Part 2):
In Luke 16:19-31, we read about the rich man and Lazarus. What I notice is that they both died. It speaks of the rich man being in Hades, and being in torment. What is interesting if you read through that section, the rich man can feel, he can speak, he can see, he can remember, and he is in torment. Notice in Verse 26 that there is a great gulf fixed and no one is able to cross over from one side to the other. There is no hope for those on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. The question here is, why didn't the rich man cease to exist when he died?
In Mark 9:43-47, even though this is not literally talking about plucking your eye out or cutting off your hand, it does speak of some entering into life, and some being cast into Hell. If the wicked one who has rejected Christ dies and ceases to exist, how can he be cast into Hell?
In Revelation 20:5, it tells us that the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Obviously, there must have been a previous resurrection because this talks about the rest of the dead not being resurrected until after the 1,000-year reign. How can those who cease to exist be resurrected? How do you raise or resurrect something that does not exist?
John 5:29 says, "And come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." Again, how do you resurrect and judge someone that does not exist?
Again, in Luke 16:28, the rich man says, "For I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." This rich man is in a place of torment. He did not cease to exist when he died. Why not?
I just have a few more questions if you don't mind, so I will need one more post.
Actually Shabbat Keeper, I wasn't intending to bring up the Rapture debate here, as it has been well discussed over the years. Rather, I was intending to give, maybe a rather flimsy example of a type of Gospel message, telling unbelievers that "when we turn to the Lord for forgiveness of our sins & receiving Christ into our life, then we will not face (physical) death, but just be raptured (caught up, as with Enoch/Elijah), to forever be with him". Here then would be something for the unbeliever to consider, because as sure as day turns into night, we all (believer & unbeliever alike) will face death - whether this thought leaves an 'icky' feeling in us depends on how we view death. So, rapture is not my issue here, but why is death any more of a punishment when we all have to die & knowing that death (of the body) means a complete eradication of any iota of life (in body, breath, mind, & senses). Often death is welcome, especially for the terminally ill or suffering, & whether or not one experiences a new pain-free joyful existence in the Lord's Presence or not, holds little attraction if there is no more consciousness in death or after it.
If death is the only punishment to the Christ-rejecter, then why do we all have to die? And if I might ask (verses that some don't care to address), why are there so many Scriptures to warn us that physical death is not the end (e.g. Matthew 5:22,29,30; Matthew 10:28; Matthew 23:33; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Revelation 20:10,11-15); all these pointing to the reality of an eternal torment? As one who doesn't believe in such an eternity, I ask you (as I've done in the past with others), why are these Scriptures rejected so as to support an emotion-charged belief rather than a biblical Truth? Why do we reject or re-write these passages to suit us, when they're given direct from the Mouth of our Lord?
Rev 11:6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Malachi 4:5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Matthew 17:10] And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
[11] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
[12] But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
[13] Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Mark 9:4] And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
[5] And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
[6] For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
[7] And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
From Adam till the present, what is the SIN that separates man from God.
UNBELIEF
Adam didn't believe God's word.
National Israel didn't believe God's word.
Promised Israel today doesn't believe God's Word.
Paul was struggling with this same sin, UNBELIEF.
Romans 11:32 For God HATH concluded THEM ALL (including Paul) in UNBELIEF, that he may have MERCY ON ALL.
Proverbs 16:6 By MERCY and TRUTH iniquity (unbelief) is PURGED.
1 Timothy 1:13 Who (Paul) was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in UNBELIEF.
Romans 11:30 For YE in times past HAVE NOT BELIEVED GOD, yet have now obtained mercy because of their UNBELIEF.
Mark 9:24 .... Lord ....help thou my UNBELIEF .......
Matthew 17:20 ...because of your UNBELIEF .....
Every SIN is CAUSED by UNBELIEF.
God Bless YOU!
1John 1:3 John was speaking on the other side of the baptizmal of the Christ, he knew in power of being dead unto sin,
& the power of the resurrection of Christ within Him, joining Him to Christ & the Father John 17:21-24 in a consummate intimate fellowship which he explains to His children "that your joy maybe full, which they had & are experiencing in a measure; as they continue in the working out of their salvation, steadfast & confident unto the end.
We ourselve experience an increase in joy of this fellowship as He takes away our sin, & we don't return to them. His Presence increases in our lives, receving more of His Spirit by the hearing & obedience of Faith, which gives & increases us in what John say later "an understanding" 1John 5:20 & a part of this understanding is Philippians 4:13 which we have received.
Could non-believers read this epistles & become believers, of course; Mark 9:23 This is the heart of God Isa 49:6 Acts 13:47
in love & truth
Grace be to you
Thank you for your reply. I will first point out where the holy bible doesn't agree with you. As we all understand Christ required faith in order to Heal people Matthew 17:20 KJV, so in essence it was peoples Faith that allowed Christ to heal. Yet, Christ is merciful whereas the law is unmerciful, so Christ understanding that it isn't about "all or nothing" concerning matters of faith therefore Christ requires only a "mustard seed" of faith (i.e. something that will grow into great faith!) Therefore, Christ gives this example: "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23 KJV And the man whom Christ was talking to admitted something very Profound: "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:24 KJV Then Christ cast out the demon. You see Bennymkje, if what you say is true then any unbelief wouldn't allow Christ to heal someone, yet God is merciful because sometimes The Journey is just as important as The Destination. Remember Grace, for we are under Grace Today, while it is still Today!
Look at Daniel 12:1,2; Matthew 18:9; Matthew 25:31-46; Mark 9:42-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10; Jude 1:7; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 20:10,14,15. These do not speak of an annihilation, but of torment. And what were "their works"? Works of sinful lives, of self-glorification, of being God-haters & Christ-rejecters. If we remove the eternal suffering of Hell, we've lost a great part of our Gospel message, i.e. we not only won't have a Gospel to preach, we won't even need to preach the Gospel. Jude 1:23, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
If the preacher hasn't got the awful image before him of souls for whom Christ died, going into an eternity of torment, then that preacher is preaching a watered down Gospel, one that tickles the mind but doesn't wrench the heart - a Gospel that only requires a glib acceptance of a lowly Jesus but not weeping in sorrow for sin's wretchedness before an Holy God. Christ didn't give up His Life only to bring sinners into Heaven, but to save them from His Father's Judgement sending them to an eternity of suffering. This is why the cost of Salvation had to be so great - it took the Son of God to come between an Holy God & a hell-deserved, hell-bound sinner. We all have to die one day - but through Christ, not all have to be consigned to Hell.
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! ( Luke 7:34).
And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. ( Luke 15:31:32).
I have combined these verses to show the meaning of another verse ( Mark 2:19) which shows how with the bridegroom (Christ) present the Disciples couldn't fast but they would later on. Now of course that doesn't mean that they shouldn't fast such as what they lacked in Mark 9:29 for deliverance; what it DOES mean is that the joy of being present with the Lord when they were communing together resulted in enjoying meals together; like the Prodigal Son should have had with his father and restored brother.
Since we normally don't have "love feasts" together ( 1 Cor. 11:20-34) it may be a foreign concept but probably should be present in churches today or would often be a helpful concept. Nonetheless; for purposes here let us just refer to any communal meals we partake with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. IF; and I say that emphatically we are ever to imbibe in alcoholic beverages it should be to enjoy the celebration with family or trusted friends and of course praise and worship of God.
We also; of course have to abstain if we or anyone else present is known to have a problem with drinking.
The company we keep also in Christ's example was NOT swaying Him to sin but the Lord was clearly in charge of conversations.
I previously mentioned the lambasting Christ did to the Pharisees when they invited Him over for a meal; that happened more than once but never as clearly as in Luke 11; and Matthew 23. He certainly would be perceived as a most rude houseguest!!!!
We all like Paul have times of plenty and want; feasting and fasting more or less.
Matt 24:3 " the disciples asks, what shall be the sign of Thy coming & the end of the world?
Matt 24 Jesus explains to His disciples the signs of His coming
Jesus is speaking to His disciples who are with Him in present tense. Verily I say unto you!
Matt 24:4 & said unto them, let no man deceive you Matt 24:15 when ye shall see the abomination of desolation
Matt 24:23 then if any man say unto you, lo here is Christ. Matt 24:25 Behold I have told you Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you. Matt 24:33 when ye see all these things Matt 24:44 therefore be ye also ready
Matt 24:34,35
Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away till all this things be fulfilled, Heaven & earth shall pass away but My word shall not pass away, This was the generation 2000 yrs ago that shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled.
Matt 16:28 Mark 9:1 standing there with Him then, saw the Kingdom come in Power
Friends, Christ word out of His own mouth, which shall not pass away refutes all these words & beliefs concerning His 2nd Coming.
If we look at the time after Jesus was in the wilderness and began His public ministry; we see what begins as a few healings and public teachings in His hometown appear to rapidly grow with travel to surrounding areas where He cast out devils and did many healings. As late as Matthew 16:20 Jesus told to His Disciples not to tell anyone He was the Christ. The same instruction is in the Gospels of Mark as well as Luke. Jesus would speak Parables; eventually as the ONLY method of explaining these hidden truths to the general public. ( Matthew 13:13). This shows how deep the concept of Predestination is shown 2 verses later in Matthew 13:15 when He explains because of hard hearts they will not be given information needed to be saved. We must come to Christ on His terms; and at His drawing or prompting ( John 6:37). This concept also shows that Christ never was seeking acclamation and didn't want to be set up as King on this earth before the time either; without understanding that He had to be the suffering Savior first. When a man asked Jesus to help him with unbelief ( Mark 9:24) we need to keep in mind that when on earth He was able to raise men from the dead; today we need to trust that He has power over death; hell and sin but we don't have any certainty that He will use a person to perform a healing through the power of the Spirit today. Nonetheless we should ask the Lord in prayer all things which we will apart from those things which are just for our own selfish desires; He ever intercedes for us according to God's will ( Heb. 7:25). Finally; Jesus knew that mere facts wouldn't save anyone; as evidenced in the rich man's pleas from Hades in Luke 16:31; and all other instances Jesus was harassed for healing on a Sabbath Day-they couldn't ever deny the miracles but accused Him of working on the Sabbath and blasphemy declaring that He was the "I AM" ( John 8:58).
You state: Maybe "we can get to a state of sinlessness" as you say,
It is not as I say, it is Jesus in Matt 17:20 and John in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 and ultimately God, as the bible and all scripture if of God.
I'm accepting what God is telling us in these verses. These verses are tough Love, aren't meant to keep the sinful status quo, they are meant to wake us up! God does not want us to live the rest of our lives in sin.
You state: but if we don't in our lifetime, then we not only never had Christ abiding in us, but we actually belong to the devil, simply because we have committed even that one sin,
It is not just about "one sin". It's about a lifetime of continual sin. You must see this; if we continue to tell each other and believe we can never stop sinning, we will in fact lead a lifetime in sin.
If we commit one sin or multiple sins - at the time we commit that sin - we are not abiding in God. Anytime we are sinning we are Not abiding in God - we are abiding in Satan. If we repent and ask for forgiveness God will forgive us. But we must be sincere and stop the habitual repeating of sin.
You state: never finding freedom from it or any other sin. That would be an awful state to live in, if those verses are read & interpreted as given
Yes, I agree with you, that it is an awful state to live in sin, and these verses interpreted as given by God: are exactly meant to make us feel awful, hopefully to motivate us to really make changes, and work with Him and His Holy Spirit to rid ourselves of all sin. Is it better that we feel awful here on earth, if it promotes us to make the changes to accommodate Gods commands and receive His blessings ultimately winning the prize, and receiving eternal life in His Kingdom. Matt 18:22 Mark 9:43
In summary: God tells us not to sin - throughout the bible. I do not see one place - that God tells us sin is acceptable to Him. If you do, please present the scripture.
GBU
You
Christ has already come & that in Spirit, He told His disciples; Mark 9:1; Matt 16:28; over 2000 yrs ago, which came in full power at Pentecost.
I will not leave you comfortless, but you will see me again, that your joy maybe full, & Christ doesn't come alone, He brings His Father within Him, They became Ephesians 2:22; John 17:21-23; & they Micah 4:3;
Hebrews 9:28; is Titus 2:11; diffusing the fragrance of His knowledge in every heart. 2Cor 4:6 This is Titus 2:13; describing His 2nd appearance in Spirit. Who continually gives of Himself that Titus 2:14;
As for this son of perdition; it's the old Adamic nature that is rule by Ephesians 6:12; who's coming 2Thessalonians 2:9; this spirit works even deceive the very elect, who, we all must engage with within 2 Cor 10:3-5; Jesus says; Matt 15:18,19; for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so their within us. Think about this, we all have these thoughts spring up within us, 1 Pet 4:3; thus Jesus commands; Luke 14:27; The ones, Satan does deceive is explain, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; they refuse to believe the Witness, whom God has place within conscience. John 16:8; John 12:47-50; Jesus says, 8:24; Therefore were He has gone one cannot go.
Both seeds are spiritual, both kingdoms are within mankind.
This rapture theory John 17:11:15 "not to take them out of the world". But describes receiving 1Pet 1:5-9;The cumulation is the Baptism of the Holy Spirt, describing 2 Cor 10:6; resulting from Titus 3:5; by 1Pet 1:23; unto John 3:3; the chaff, ( old man sin nature is thoroughly purges out without a trace, Daniel 2:34,35; these earthen vessels, 1Cor 15:48,49; ) the wheat (new man created in the image of Him that created him) is gather unto the Gardener, we're His & He's ours, Acts 1:9-11; Daniel 7:13;
It's a spiritual encounter & habitation with the One true God, John 17:24; here & now, Acts 4:32,33;
Do you perceive the wonderous honor & glory of God's Great Salvation, on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus tells us below - that we should fear God as He can cast us into hell.
Luke 12:4-5
4And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Here a just a few of many verses stating that the unjust/unbeliever/unrepentant sinner will suffer for eternity in Hell.
Luke 16:22-25
Matt 25:41
Matt 3:12
Matt 25:46
Daniel 12:2
Mark 9:44-49
2 Thess 1:8-9
Rev 20:10
Rev 14:10-11
I know in the world we live in today, the popular belief among many preachers and Christians is that God is only good, kind, loving, and forgiving, and because of this - He will not throw anyone into Hell - to suffer for eternity. But that God will only leave us dead for eternity. This kind of teaching is false doctrine and does not conform to the bible, and Jesus own words. As Christian's we must always have a healthy fear of God.
Proverbs 1:7
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
God tells us Hell is real!
Read and Believe!
The other passage is in 1 Corinthians 10:13: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." There were many temptations, trials, & sufferings that the Corinthian Christians faced, not only because they were Christians, but that they lived in a very pagan corrupt society. The apostle here is assuring them that their trials & temptations in life were not uncommon, but to His children, God will give them 'a way of escape'. It's true that God can remove the temptation or point us in a different direction to escape, but God's Spirit also gives us power to endure & bear up. Here too, we must exercise implicit faith for God to do as He Wills.