Discuss Matthew 24 Page 4

Chris,

Thanks for the robust conversation. Yes, we will have to just disagree and move on, as I considered your beliefs and interpretation of the scripture but can't agree with you, without ignoring God, Christ, and ton's of scripture. I will always opt to follow God's word because we know Him if we keep his commandments, sin is the transgression of the law, God's words will never pass away.

Matthew 24:35

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

1 John 2:3

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

1 John 3:4

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

It is a marvelous and beautiful thing that God speaks in simple language for the simple person to understand his Gospel. Amen

GBU

Ronald.

Part 2.

Matthew 24:4-15.

Then from verses 5 through 13 Jesus gives what I would say any array of things that are not signs.

And then comes verses 14 and 15.

14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME.

15) WHEN YE THEREFORE SHALL SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Brother Ronald this is definitely end times.

God bless.

Hi Brother Ronald.

Part 1.

Sorry for such a delay. In Daniel 9:25 "Messiah the Prince"

What I was saying is it actually SAYS Messiah the king.

I didn't mean to say it's translated king from prince.

On Daniel 9:24-25. I agree with you when you say "These 6 things were determined upon Daniel's people, the lost sheep of Israel, and the holy city, Jerusalem. That's true!

Now here is where we disagree on Daniel 9:24-25. Seventy weeks are determined "UPON THY PEOPLE and upon thy holy city, DANIELS PEOPLE!

These six things wasn't accomplished for Daniels people at the cross because"Daniels people" rejected Jesus as savior.

Daniels people transgression and sin is specific.

They denied their king and savior who came at the appointed time!

This is what Hosea 5:15 is talking about.

"I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

This is also what Jesus is saying in Matthew 23:39. "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord".

Of course they saw him again.

What Jesus is saying here is they won't behold him as a nation again until they say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!

That affliction will come in the 70th week.

When they turn to him then will those 6 things for "Daniels people" be accomplished.

Here is what I have as the middle of the 70th week. Revelation 13:4-5 "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months".

In Matthew 24:3 When Jesus pointed his Desciples to Daniel 9 he was answering 2 of the 3 questions they asked him. "and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world.

See pt 2.

Dear S. Spencer,

I do know people who hold to the viewpoint I and Ronald have spoken about Daniel 9.

Let me state again, I believe that Daniel 9 tells of the first coming of Christ, not the second, and that Jesus is the Prince, Messiah, spoken of in Daniel 9:25 an d the 'prince that is to come' in verse 26 is the Roman Emperor and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. In Matthew 24:15, I believe that Jesus' reference to Daniel's prophecy was to the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D. also. (this verse refers back to verses 1-2 began the discourse).

But I also think that Jesus was speaking of the last times in this discourse, as well in some verses.

As to what I have stated in the past, Steven, I must say that as I study on this topic more and more, my views have changed. I am in the process of learning and my understanding is developing. So, please offer me grace to in this. Let's instead speak about our understanding of the passages at hand and not pick apart one another's thinking. I would love to hear you tell us your understanding. I will respect your thinking even if I may disagree with it.

As to being premillennial dispensational or historic, preterist, post millennial, or amillennial. I lean more towards the amillennial viewpoint the more I study. I do have some preterist understanding of this topic of Daniel, but am not totally preterist, either. I don't think we necessarily need to stand fully in one view over another as we are in the process of learning.

I do believe that Jesus took the throne of David at the right hand of the Father after His ascension to heaven. He received all authority and dominion from the Father and is reigning as our King and Priest now in heaven. He reigns over both heaven and earth, as He is Lord of all creation. I believer He will come again in glory to resurrect everyone, judge everyone, defeat all of His enemies, and determine every person's eternal estate at that time.

Thanks again Gigi.

A month ago I said I would like to try a exercise that would test or check our hermeneutics by going through the OT on into the NT.

I started it with the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants and I believe I left off where we identify the fulfillment.

The reason for this particular study was that some say God was done with Israel and his promises to restore Israel was made over to the Church.

There was dispute on Romans chapters 9,10, and 11.

Those studies would eventually end up in eschatology viewpoints.

I'm glad you labeled certain views you don't agree with dispensational and not I,

So by your definition I'm going to pull some of the dispensationist out of the closet.

First let me ask a question you have me confused on.

You said Daniel 9 is not an end time discussion how do you view Matthew 24:15?

Jesus goes through a discourse with his disciples on the end times and refers them to this. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Do you hold the view of Jesus being the Prince of the people destroyed the Sanctuary?

Your view of Daniels 70th week prophecy is very peculiar because you are Post trib. Did you know Post trib-ers use Daniel 9 as a spring board to the end times?

If so that's not the view you had when you supported Jimbob a few months ago.

You might want to read the ticket before getting on the train.

I've never heard anyone that holds to any rapture doctrine doesn't use Daniel 9's 70th week as the final week unless they say the abomination that makes desolate was done by Antiochus IV Epiphanes 200 years before Christ.

That doesn't work for your time-line and besides Jesus places it future towards the end time.

Can you explain?

Thanks in advance.

God bless

Hi Ronald.

Concerning part 1 of your reply.

Rome destroyed the city.

The prince that shall come will rise out of the Romans empire. This empire was never overthrown.

I showed the connection between ch 2 and ch 7 and 9. on into Revelation.

In most of these passages they use the exact same terms and description.

You said you see of Matt. 23:37-38 is a consummation of Dan. 9:27.

But in Matthew 24:14-15 Jesus place Daniel 9:27 towards the end times!

( And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning Daniel 11:31. That was Antiochus Epiphanes, this happened around 170 BC,

However, Jesus points this to a end time event.

Ronald if you will, refresh my memory of your view on the end times.

Where and when is the Millennial Kingdom?

Are we in it or is it future?

If future, can you give me your view chronologically?

This will help me understand where you are coming from.

God bless.

Hello, thank you but those verses don't say anything about being saved immediately. I think its important to not add or subject from the Bible's meaning. There are lots of verses about being saved, but none I have come across that say you are saved immediately on earth. I have found verses indicating people are saved later, however. The following say in the "end" or "after" things. They don't say "now" or "immediately".

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise."

Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:10 KJV

2 Corinthians 5:10

If there are no verses saying we are immediately saved before we die and are judged, why do people assume that? If not in the Bible where did this belief originate?

Hi Jimbob. To your last question first (from Revelation 12:9), I understand that Satan & his angels are cast upon the Earth AT the revelation of the Anti-Christ, when Satan stealthily begins to fulfil his power & will against Israel & upon Earth's inhabitants through the Anti-Christ.

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent" ( Revelation 12:12-14).

So then to your earlier point: "(Also the wrath of God, and this time period of Satan having great wrath on the inhabiters of the earth are not the same time periods, Satan will persecute, even beheading Believers. God's wrath is poured out on all non-believers in Jesus Christ)."

When we look at the Matthew 24:21 reference you gave: "For then shall be great tribulation", this verse comes immediately after vv 15 onwards: the appearing of the abomination of desolation. When Israel sees the Anti-Christ, they ought to flee, for the Great Tribulation is upon them. I read that the Great Tribulation starts with the revelation of the Anti-Christ & his revelation can only occur when the Restrainer is removed. Is it God Who removes the Restrainer? I believe so, which means that God has now declared that He is done with this unbelieving world, taken His saints in the Rapture, with Satan now exercising his full control & rule through his puppet & all this will climax at Christ's Second Coming & the final battle. So when I read "the Great Tribulation", I read it as "the Great Tribulation of God's Wrath", not just more suffering to all.

AMEN Brother Ronald:

You are correct: Daniel is a prophecy of Christ, not antichrist.

Most don't understand the abomination that maketh desolated. It was SET UP the same time the daily sacrifice was destroyed .... Daniel 12:11

Hebrews 3:9 But Christ a Son over his own HOUSE, whose house we are .....

Matthew 23:38 Behold your HOUSES are left unto you DESOLATE ....

All men DIED, their house (BODY) was left desolate, no life, dead on the cross, then CHRIST ONLY arose.

All men arose a NEW CREATION; joint HEIRS of Christ, the body of Christ, the life now the SPIRIT of GOD.

Most don't understand the GREAT TRIBULATION.

Matthew 24:22 And unless those days be SHORTENED, no flesh should be SAVED ....

Christ and ALL MEN DIED on the cross, three SHORT days latter, ALL MEN were made ALIVE by the RESURRECTION.

ALL the wrath of God, that ALL MEN deserved, was POURED OUT on Christ, that was the GREAT TRIBULATION, three short(en) days, for the elects sake.

The same things is pictured in Revelation, all the 7 plagues and 7 vials had to be poured out before ANYONE could enter the TEMPLE, God Almighty and the LAMB are the TEMPLE .... Revelation 21:22

Revelations 15:8 ... NO ONE could enter the temple, until the seven plagues were fulfilled ......

God bless you!

Hi Ronald.

Thanks for your reply.

I have to disagree with you here.

I won't have time to get to far into it tonight and would actually like to visit this again towards the end of this series I started a couple of months ago.

But I will look at one aspect of your questions.

Your question concerning Daniel 9:27.

He shall confirm the covenant with many", COULD HE IN THIS VERSE FIT JESUS?

Let's look at that passage along with verse 26 and read it straight through.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: Pause.

Now here's another player mentioned midway through verse 26 and the focus doesn't come off him throughout vs 27.

Let's continue.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT "SHALL COME" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS "HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. .

This is clearly the prince that shall come.

If it was Jesus confirming the covenant then it would be Jesus that makes the overspreading of abominations that makes it desolate.

Besides it's Jesus that points to this event as being future in Matthews

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matthew 24:15

God bless.

Hi Jimbob. Getting first to Daniel 9:26,27, I guess my understanding of the appearance of the "prince", ie. the Anti-Christ is somewhat different to yours. In the Daniel passage, the way I read it (by my paraphrasing v 27) is:

'And he, the Anti-Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for seven years (that missing week of the seventy weeks of years). And in the midst of that seven years (i.e. at the 3 1/2 year point), he shall cause the Jewish sacrificial system & oblation offerings (which he probably re-instituted as part of that covenant he made with them), to be terminated & spread his own abominations in their place. And this he does until the completion of all things (could this be when Christ returns with His heavenly armies?) which includes the pouring out of God's final Judgement upon the desolate (on those that are 'desolate', in 'horror', as the Hebrew 'shamem' indicates for this verse).'

You understand that the Anti-Christ appears 'mid-week'. I read it that he appears at the beginning of the 'week' ( 2 Thessalonians 2:3: first the falling away & then the revelation of the man of sin, then 'the day of Christ' (His appearing for battle) will commence. Therefore, at the start of the seven year Great Tribulation period, the falling away, the man of sin appears, he reneges on his deal with Israel, then 'after the tribulation of those days' ( Matthew 24:29), the spectacular & frightening display from the universe, & the return of Jesus Christ. So, I see that the Great Tribulation begins right at the beginning at the appearing of the Anti-Christ, where the One or whatever entity that was thus far restraining him, is removed, & God's Anger is unleashed on an unbelieving, Christ-rejecting World.

Your reference to Matthew 24:4-14 as being the 'first 3 1/2 year period, I see as the condition of the world & the sufferings of believers at this present time (i.e. from Jesus' day till the present). And this continues until Matthew 24:15. Blessings Jimbob.

Page 2.

e. for one week (7 years) this 'prince' will construct a pact with Israel & in the midst of that 7 years, renege on it. So how should we account for this missing seven years from the original word given to Daniel of 490 years (70 weeks from Jerusalem's rebuilding to bringing in everlasting righteousness)?

There have been many suggestions, but in my present understanding, these seven years are still missing of the 490 years, i.e. the prince is yet to come & is yet to make this covenant (pact), & yet to renege on it, with the overspreading of abominations, UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (Completion).." (God's Judgement, or as you understand it, God's Wrath). In line with Daniel 7:8, Daniel 9:26,27, Matthew 24:15, & 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4, I understand that this seven year period (outstanding from the 483 accomplished years), is the time of Great Tribulation; primarily against Israel but no doubt affecting the whole world when the 'prince to come' (the Anti-Christ) demands his mark & worship from all.

If you have another interpretation of these passages or even how you discern this time from other verses, then I would be keen to study them, & even change my thoughts on this. Blessings.

If we go back to Eve. she gave birth ( Genesis 1:27,28;4:1,2;5:25). some of these offspring's died by means of old age,

Genesis 3:19; Genesis 6:3, violance or destroyed by the flood ( Genesis 6:5-7,11-13;17). Only Noah his wife, Shem, Ham, and Japheth their 3 wives survived. that means only eight people survived out of Adams and eve's children and grand children.

The point! not all of Noah's children listened to God. They followed Satan the devil and his lies Genesis 3. when you read about the Canaanites ( Genesis 13:7; Leviticus 18:1-5) this bad nation came through Ham descendance ( Genesis 10:6). or Ammorites, some Noah's descendance created a nation by their family name Genesis 11. When Jehovah ( psalm 83:18) confused their language they all spread out and became nations of people like you see today.

to the point: Abraham was a righteous man who lived in Canaan. but one of God's angels told him to leave Canaan then became a father to a nation of Israel ( Genesis 17:1-8). God name Jacob Israel ( Genesis 32:28). this is how a Nation of Isreal came about. Canaan land later became Jerusalem belonging to Israel the Jews.

However, Israel repeatedly sinned by worshiping other gods. even Solomon the last king worshiped false Gods ( Nehemiah 13:23-27) Jesus turned to the Gentiles which means nation who will believe ( John 3:16,17).

However, their are some Israelites who did believe, but most rejected Jesus.- Acts 1:6-8; Matthew 24:14; 2 Timothy 3:13-17



It's a lot of info. but I hope the bible answered your question HOW A NATION BECAME A INDEPENDANT NATION

2 Esdras 16:21-22

"Behold, victuals shall be so good cheap upon earth, that they shall think themselves to be in good case, and even then shall evils grow upon earth, sword, famine, and great confusion. For many of them that dwell upon earth shall perish of famine; and the other, that escape the hunger, shall the sword destroy."

2 Esdras 2:27-30

Be not weary: for when the day of trouble and heaviness cometh, others shall weep and be sorrowful, but thou shalt be merry and have abundance. The heathen shall envy thee, but they shall be able to do nothing against thee, saith the Lord. My hands shall cover thee, so that thy children shall not see hell. Be joyful, O thou mother, with thy children; for I will deliver thee," saith the Lord.

2 Esdras 13:23-24

"The one who brings the peril at that time will protect those who fall into peril, who have works and faith toward the Almighty. Understand therefore that those who are left are more blessed than those who have died."

Matthew 24:39-44

"So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. But understand this: If the homeowner had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect." Jesus

Jema,

We should never pay any attention to our dreams. Our dreams are likely a product of our subconscious mind and are not relevant in any way regarding spiritual things. We all dream, which is likely a very healthy thing. But we never ever want to look upon our dreams as being a message from God in any way whatsoever.

Before the Bible was completed, God did speak directly to mankind through dreams or visions or voices or tongues, etc. He did this because there was no COMPLETE written Word as yet. And He was in the process of "writing" the Bible. This type of direct communication with mankind ceased once the Bible was completed with the Book of Revelations. And God then stated very clearly in Rev 22:18,19 that we are never again to expect any kind of direct message from God apart from the Bible itself.

God also tells us in Matthew 24:24 that as we approach the end of the world during the period of the Great Tribulation, where we currently are in history I am convinced, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". And we certainly do not want to fall into that snare.

So if you want to hear a message from God, READ THE BIBLE; knowing that it is the very Word of God Himself ( John 1:1-5) and is absolutely true and trustworthy. The BIBLE ALONE AND IN ITS ENTRITY IS THE WORD OF GOD and is our ONLY source of spiritual Truth.

Pay no attention to your dream.

One other thing Trudy Jordan,

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak about the Great Tribulation, Christ's return, and the Rapture of True Believers. It can be shown, I believe, that we are currently living in the period of God's plan for this world that He calls the Great Tribulation spoken about in these chapters.

There is only ONE Rapture of believers and it occurs, as we read in Matthew 24:29, "IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days". And that is referred to in the Bible as "the Last Day".

Matthew 24 Doesn't have to do with the eclipse that you where referring to. but Jesus did talk about

the end of times. of course he was talking here about Jerusalem's temple at that time which did happened. but this scripture event continues into our day until Jesus comes. as you read this scripture; you read the signs Jesus was talking about would happen and compare it to pass centuries and today? also Jesus talked about his appearance ( Matthew 24:30) after these things (verse 4-14) will be accomplished. After that Great Tribulation of the destruction of Jerusalem (verse 29,30) The son of man which is Jesus will appear ( Matthew 24:14).

Jesus hasn't yet came. but we still see war (verse 6) but the end is not yet! (verse 36)

Psalm 97

Verse 1 indicates the "multitude of isles" being glad when the Lord reigns. This term has been said to refer to the Gentile nations or the outermost parts of the world. Ezekiel 39:6 and Isaiah 41:5 seem to refer to these parts of the world during the Tribulation with Isaiah 24:15 giving a prophetic indication that even in the fires God will be glorified.

Verse 2 on clouds and darkness are similar to Solomon's description of God in 1 Kings 8:12 similar to other passages.

Verse 3 through 5 show the affects on the earth of His coming. We are reminded of 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as well as the battle of Armageddon.

Verse 4 reminds us of Matthew 24:27 when the Son of Man comes as to His appearing.

Verse 5 shows us similar references to Psalm 68:2 among other places.

Verse 6 shows as things are now; God's presence evident to all as we see indicated in Romans 1 and Psalm 19. Man will see His glory when He comes to rule in the Millennium.

Verse 7 shows that finally idol worship will end when Christ comes back. People will eventually cast forth their idols of gold and silver during the Tribulation judgments as Isaiah 2:20. Perhaps some of that sadly will occur because Satan himself will demand worship and that will eliminate worship of any false gods but also the true God with the mark of the beast sealing people's fate.

Verse 8 shows how Judah and the remaining nation of Israel will rejoice; which will happen when He is returning as Zechariah 12:10 indicates. Verse 9 shows the majesty of God unparalleled.

Verse 10 shows how saints are delivered; either from or through disaster.

Verse 11 reminds us of His light and no longer a need for the sun and moon from Revelation 21:23 but also found in Isaiah 60:19.

Finally the last verse talks about rejoicing of the righteous and thanks at remembrance of His holiness. Good sentiment for all times or dispensations and the age to come.

Revelation: First and second half (continued).

Assuming the church is gone; as far as the operation of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer now stands or as salt and light we see the familiar war; famine and pestilence pattern of judgments gallop forth with the seal judgments. This time of "Jacob's trouble" ( Jeremiah 30:7) also contains a promise that eventually they will be delivered out of it.

Verses on war; famine and pestilence

Jeremiah 24:10 is one of many passages in the Old Testament prophetic books warning of the sword; famine and pestilence. At least two out of 3 of these judgments are proclaimed in numerous other passages such as Lamentations 4:9; Ezekiel 5:12; and many other places in these same books. The Gospels also warn of such events in the birth pangs warnings in Matthew 24:8.

There is a basic change that I have noted between the attitude in Revelation 6 and that in Revelation 19. Men who feared God and hid from him will now openly fight against Christ; and the blasphemy of Antichrist (no doubt taking credit for killing the 2 prophets as well as ending the misery they caused and apparently having been healed from a deadly wound) will have much to do with that. The description in Zechariah 11:17 gives detail of this. (see also Psalm 2).

Judgment does two things; it brings forth fruit to maturity for those who are of God's children and hardens hearts further of the unregenerate. Psalm 40 indicates that "many will see and fear" (verse 3). I postulate that may be a hidden or veiled reference to the Rapture. But certainly those who do wake up will see the signs and wonders that the 2 prophets have and will believe.

The Rapture

According to 1 Corinthians 15:22 at the last trump the Lord comes for His church. Some say that Matthew 24:36 is referring to that day that no man knows the day and hour as being the Jewish feast of Trumpets. There could be something to that; with Christ fulfilling the Spring feasts already; namely the Passover lamb sacrificed for us; and the Pentecost ascension which; by the way was always celebrated on the "8th day" of the week.

As my last post indicates; there is little talk today among most professing believers of the Rapture. We see what could be an analogy of a separation or Rapture of some in Luke 12:45 where the watchmen is beaten by his fellow sorkers. There is even some say that same pattern in Song of Solomon 5:7.

Luke 21:36 instructs us to pray that we are worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man. The original language uses the word "agonia" or something to that affect. Clearly; not all believers are praying in such a manner which questions their walk with God as to either their salvation or their position of readiness. I have probably presented some ideas last year as to whether all Christians are raptured or if some have to go through some of the Tribulation. What is certain is that these warnings; along with Revelation 3:10 are for those who are awake and waiting which I contended in my last posting that Malachi 3:16 spoke of.

Whatever our eschatology; fearing God and anticipating His arrival isn't restricted to those who hold a Pretribulational and Premillenial viewpoint. I have fellowshipped with Amillenials and Post Millenials who had more conviction about Christ coming as well as the terrible judgments on the earth than those who claim what I espouse; namely the Rapture followed by the 7 Year Tribulation and a Millennial rule of Christ before the eternal new earth. Even if I could press my viewpoint it isn't worth splitting hairs; we should all look to the scriptures daily.

Considering the times

Matthew 24:30 talks about the sign of the Son of Man; followed by the well known verse 34 about this generation not passing until all these things come to pass.

Psalm 90:10 seems to show the limit of a generation as being 80 years at most. If 1948 was the sign of the fig tree; that means that the Lord should return by 2028; obviously with a 7 year Tribulation and being currently in 2023 that can't happen.

One possible interpretation is that the Revelation 6 sign where the nations know the wrath of God and Christ is about to start would be what the sign is referring to not the actual physical return at Armageddon. Preterists are right at least to AD 70 and certain signs that showed the destruction of the Temple in the generational timeframe within 40 years of the crucifixion. Thus; we need to assume a double fulfillment which much prophecy indeed refers to.

Some have proposed 1967 and the recapture of Jerusalem as the date referred to. Even if that's the case it doesn't leave much more time; as we are already 56 years from that date and at least 63 years past then if he returns say in 2030.

Another theory I have is that the final generation may not BEGIN until the " Psalm 83" war which is an invasion of the nations immediately surrounding Israel which are NOT mentioned in the Ezekiel 38 war. There is also some confusion on the timing of Ezekiel 38-I will just say that there are some similarities to the battle (so called) after the Millenium with some important differences.

At any rate; we must realistically assess if we have been wrong assuming 1948; as many have already fallen away since 1988 came and went along with many other dates announced as to when "it had to happen by then." Many more have gone Postmillennial in their doctrines in recent years as a response I would expect. We certainly need as a minimum to believe in the literal physical return of Christ. That is the bottom line.

Hi Kay. If I may just share my thoughts on what you've written, pre-empting Richard's comment: you've quoted Revelation 3:15,16, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." I understand Jesus' Words to the Laodicean Church that the works (or, fruit) they bore from their 'Christian experience' was "neither cold nor hot", or, 'their works & life lived did not resemble the cold (the unbeliever) or the hot (the one in Christ & Christ in them). Rather, Jesus saw them as lukewarm (fence-sitters, middle-of-the-road, nominal practising Christians). Jesus would rather see them for who they are: be it cold (unbelievers) or hot (believers), as there was no place in His Kingdom for the lukewarm (considered to be non-Christians, imposters in the Church). Not only in Laodicea, but greatly in Christendom today, lukewarmness is the order of the day - and Jesus would have none of it.

And Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Our brother Jesse who is regularly seen on these pages, has shown us from the original Greek language, that our reading of this verse should be: "The one, however, having endured to the end, he will be saved" (direct rendering from the Greek). So, this verse doesn't speak of a Christian enduring to the end & then gaining salvation - there are many other verses that suggest otherwise speaking of the believer's security in Christ now; but that if we truly believe & have God's Holy Spirit in us, we WILL endure to the end - no exceptions, because that is the very Nature & Purpose of the Holy Spirit in us "to keep us from falling (away) & to present us faultless before the presence of His Glory..." ( Jude 1:24).

Lukewarm 'Christians' & those who easily & regularly do despite to the Spirit of Grace in their manner of living, desperately need to be saved & secured in the Love of Christ.

(Part 2):

Jimbob,

I agree, Matthew does not mention a rapture of the church anywhere in Chapter 24. In fact, he never mentions a rapture in any of the chapters. You say that there is not rapture in ( Mt. 24:4), and that I am believing something that's not written over the pure Words of the Lord Jesse.

You are absolutely right about Matthew not mentioning a rapture in Verse 4, But you are falsely accusing me of believing something I never said. I never once said that any of those verses preceding Verse 4 mentioned a rapture. All I said was I believe the rapture takes place before the start of the Tribulation Period.

You go on to say that "The comment I made about the 7-year tribulation starting in ( Mt. 24:4) Would mean Jesus comes for the church in either that verse or the 3 verses before that."

Why would Matthew have to mention Jesus coming for the church in Verses 1-3? Again, you already agreed with me that the pains of birth (first 3-1/2 years) started in Matthew 24:4. So why didn't Matthew mention Jesus coming for the church in the preceding three verses? Maybe for the same reason that Paul, after speaking about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 didn't immediately speak about the Tribulation Period, or the wrath of God being poured out in the very next verses. He didn't need to, and Matthew didn't need to mention a rapture in Matthew 24-1-3 either.

Jimbob, our discussion on this topic seems to be at a stalemate. We are not going to completely agree with each other on this, so I see no need to continue on and I am ending off with this discussion. I would much rather discuss things that we can agree on.

God Bless!

Hello Jimbob,

You're telling me that I am saying Jesus comes in ( Mt. 24:4) where it says nothing about Jesus returning, and yet I am doubting the Words of Jesus in ( Mt. 24:29-31) where Jesus very clearly tells us He will return in the clouds to gather together His elect.

First of all, accusing me of doubting the words of Jesus is a pretty harsh thing to say. I would NEVER doubt the words of Jesus. Secondly, I did NOT say that Jesus comes in Matthew 24:4. If you have been carefully reading the things I've said, you would see that I have already stated in another post that Matthew 24:29-31 is the promise of His coming (2nd coming of Christ). I never once said that He comes at Matthew 24:4. If you can point out where I said that, then I will make the correction. In case you missed it, I will state it again. Matthew 24:4-14, Pains of birth. Matthew 24:15, Pivotal point, Matthew 24:16-28, Perils of Tribulation, and Matthew 24:29-31, The Promise of His coming. (2nd Coming of Christ).

In this thread, you asked me when I thought the 7-Year Tribulation period began. I answered by saying that the first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation is known as the pains of birth which is covered in Matthew 24:4-14. This was your response: "You (I) said "The first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation is known as the pains of birth which is covered in" ( Mt. 24:4-14) I completely agree with that Jesse."

You asked me "Does this 7-year Tribulation period you speak of start in ( Mt. 24:21)?" I responded by saying that the 7-year Tribulation begins once the church is removed. I then said that the beginning of the 7-year tribulation begins at Matthew 24:4.

I did say that the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation begins at ( Mt. 24:4). You agreed with me on that. But then you say "I'm sorry but Jesus would say something about an event that is that important, there is absolutely nothing in that verse or the 3 verses before that shows anything or says anything about a rapture."

See Part 2:

Jimbob,

Yes, studying the word of God is always a good thing. I do agree with you on that. I would be happy to answer your "one more" question. Your question to me is "Does this 7-year Tribulation period you speak of start in ( Mt. 24:21)?

Unless you are trying to trip me up, you should know by now that I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. So, because of my position on this, my answer to you would be that the 7-year Tribulation begins once the church is removed. Matthew 24:21 is not the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation. The beginning of the 7-year tribulation begins at Matthew 24:4, the mid-point is at Matthew 24:15, and the last 3-1/2 years (Great Tribulation) starts at Matthew 24:16.

In previous discussions, we've already went over Matthew 24:22, and who the "elect" is referring to where it says "but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened," so I will stand by my belief on that.

You mention Matthew 24:7, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." And you ask me if this sounds like today? I would say yes, it does sound like today. However, these things have been going on for much longer that 7-years, so how does that fit into your belief that we are living in the Tribulation time frame?

Jimbob, I do thank you for answering my questions. But your answer to my question "If Christ does not come back within this time frame, how will you explain that"? has me a little perplexed. You responded by saying "I'm not setting any dates Jesse, But I am showing what the Spirit has showed me in the Scriptures. If that does not happen then I will say I misinterpreted Scripture, but I honestly do think we are living that time period now."

I need to send a part 2. It will be short, I promise!

Jimbob,

Thanks for the two questions. I am happy to answer them for you.

First question: Are you saying that ( Mt 24) is prophecy in the Lastdays (only for the Jews?)

I believe I already answered that one in my last post, so I have nothing more to add to what I said.

Second question: "You also said only non-believers will be left on the earth at the time of the mark of the beast. Is that true Jesse?"

Okay, I need to be more specific with what I am saying. Allow me to change what I said. Only non-believers (Unsaved people) will be on the earth at the start of the 7-year Tribulation Period. As you know, I believe the church will be removed from the earth prior to the start of the Tribulation Period, so that leaves only non-believers. The first 3-1/2 years of the 7-year Tribulation is known as the pains of birth which is covered in Matthew 24:4-14. And then right in the middle of this 7-years, we have the pivotal point ( Matthew 24:15) where we see the abomination of desolation. The abomination of desolation is when the antichrist helps the Jews to start their sacrifices again. And then the last 3-1/2 years we have the perils of tribulation. The last 3-1/2 years is called the Great Tribulation. And then we have the promise of His coming (Second coming of Christ) in Matthew 24:29-31.

So, to clarify what I was saying, only non-believers will be here at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation Period because the church will have been raptured. But before the pivotal point (Middle of the 7 years), there will be some non-believers who were not raptured that will become believers and they will refuse the mark of the beast.

Blessings!

thank you, you speak the truth, may those with eyes to see and ears to hear, hear what the Spirit says in these last days! Most do not want the truth because the truth is hard to bear! There is much evidence that the vaccine is the mark! In scripture and with the info you have provided, may many be saved and the Lord Jesus find faith on the earth when He returns!!

Matthew 24:22

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Hello Jimbob,

If I'm understanding your question correctly, you are asking me about where Jesus said "when they deliver you up," and when this takes place, if the "deliver you up" time period proves that Jesus was speaking of the end-time tribulation period?

My answer is no, and here's why. In Matthew 10:16, Jesus says "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Jesus is sending them out as sheep amongst wolves. He knows what's going to happen to them once they start preaching the gospel, and He tells them what's going to happen in Matthew 10:17-18. They are going to be "delivered up."

Jesus is not talking about the end-time tribulation period here. He is sending His disciples out and telling them that they will be delivered up to the councils (Jewish Councils). And then in Matthew 10:19, Jesus says "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. (This is not talking about the end-time).

In Matthew 24:9, this is to the Jews, not the church.

In Mark 13:9, Jesus says "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them."

What I notice are the words council and synagogues. The word council is literally Sanhedrin, the chief Council of the Jews. Jesus is talking to Jewish people. He is talking directly to His disciples. He is talking directly to His believers, (Jewish believers). Mark 13:11 tells us that they are going to be captured. As for Luke 21:12, this is also to the Jews, not the church.

When dealing with end-time prophecy I think the misunderstanding of the prophecies of the last days is based upon combining Luke's account with Matthew's and Mark's account as if they are the same message. They are not the same message.

Blessings to you!

Brother Chris,

You are right, that is the correct reading from the Greek Text, and it literally would read "The yet one under-remaining (one-enduring) into finish (consummation) this one shall be being saved. So, taking Matthew 24:13 literally from the Greek, this tells us that the one who is presently enduring will continue to endure to the finish or consummation. A true believer, one who has born of God's Spirit, will never stop enduring. And yes, the word HUPOMENO cannot be read on its own with the exact same meaning every time it is used as there are several different forms and transliterations of this one word. And the things you are saying make perfect sense. I have nothing to add to what you've already written.

Blessings to you!!!

(Part 3):

Jimbob,

2 Timothy 2:11 is the creed for the servant. When we see the phrase "it is a faithful saying" in the New Testament, it is literally, "the word is faithful." It was a phrase used in the New Testament church to say that these phrases were going around various churches, coming from various teachers and apostles that were not found in scripture, but were considered to be the word of God at that time. There was no New Testament. So, whenever a teacher says this is a faithful saying, it means this has been established in all the churches from the apostles and others, and it can be considered to be the word of God.

2 Timothy 2:12-13 should be taken together. If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself. This is the creed for a servant. Whatever hardship I must go through to serve Christ, if I be dead with Him, if I suffer, I'm going to live with Him and I'm also going to reign with Him. I've entered into the sufferings of Christ, not my sufferings, so that as I identify with His life and sufferings now, one day I'm going to reign with Him.

In Matthew 24, if I begin with Verse 1, it is easy to see that Jesus is speaking to the Jews, not Gentiles, and not the church. Matthew 24:9 says, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." These are to the Jews. We are not suffering, nor will we suffer any of these things. The reason I say this is because Jesus is going to give direction as to what they (Jews) are to do about it. This lines up of with the fourth horse, the pale horse in Revelation 6:7-8 where death comes. He says, they will kill you: and you should be hated of all nations for my name sake.