Discuss Matthew 24 Page 44

Where in the Bible is the statement " In End Times Good will become evil and Evil will become good"?

Chris and all, you mentioned in a previous post that Christians are not afraid to examine and allow that there are parts of the Garden story that are not literal. Yet, in your comments, you express that fear. You say, "if it should not be taken literally (& remembering, all of Scripture hangs on these facts), then almost all subsequent Scripture would have to be modified". Are you saying you're afraid neatly packaged doctrines might be wrong? But should that be the basis for Biblical Hermeneutics? Do we start from 'How we think it was' and backwards to the Bible? Or do we start with the Bible, to determine what we should know?

As for those that didn't sin in the manner of Adam, that didn't last long. Paul says they too were imputed with sin. Not only that, wasn't everything destroyed with Noah?

Could one of our doctrinal myths have to do with the notion the Nephillim were offspring of Angels (Sons of God) and natural women (Daughters of Men)? Can Angels procreate? Are Angels male or female? Are Angels the same Species as Humans? Can Angels cross Species? Doesn't Paul say there are earthly bodies and there are Heavenly bodies and each has its own separate substance?

And would another be the insistence that "Day" in Genesis has to be a 24 hours Day? But what negative impact do you think these things would have on the trustworthiness and legitimacy of Scripture?

Bob,

You seemed to dodge my question, probably unintentional I'm sure, but I'll ask it again. Is 2 Timothy 2:16-18 talking about someone losing their soul for believing something that is false (after) being born of God's Spirit?

My response to Revelation 3:5: "He that overcomes" is called a Present Participle, which denotes continuous action. It doesn't stop! It's to the one who is overcoming. It is a continuous action. We are overcoming, and we will overcome because we have Christ in us, and He overcame!

To the one who is overcoming, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Christ has promised not to blot anyone that overcomes from out of the book of life. Again, that is a Present Participle. It is a continuous action. Those who truly belong to Christ are the ones who overcome, and they will not be blotted out.

Also, there are references in the O.T. that indicate more than one book of life. The Jews understand that. There was a book of life that every person's name was recorded in when they were physically born. When a person rejects Christ, they will be blotted out of that book, as though they were never born. And then there is the Lamb's book of life which records the names of everyone who has been born of His Spirit. Jesus promises that He will never blot anyone out of the Lamb's book of life. A person who is saved will never be blotted out!

Hi Robert,

You partially answered my question, so I'll take what I can get. I have heard of the Millerites. But don't know much about them as I never took the time to do any research on that group. Also, I've heard of people being "on-fire" for the Lord. What I have learned over the years, is that most of the people who are "on-fire" people are new believers. I'm not even sure how I would describe someone being on-fire for the Lord? I remember when I was a kid growing up, I walked by a church that had the side door open and inside there were people flailing their arms around, jumping up and down, and screaming things I couldn't understand. It definitely wasn't English. I was pretty young so it scared me. There are things that stick with you your entire life, and that was one of them. I guess you can say they were "on-fire" for the Lord. I've also seen people in church that seemed to be on-fire for the Lord, but that fire seemed to be quenched as soon as they left the parking lot, and they didn't get it back until the following Sunday.

So when I hear of someone being on fire, that does not tell me much because I've seen people on fire burn out and leave after a few months and no longer want anything to do with the Lord. So being on-fire for the Lord does not really prove a person is truly saved. The parable of the sower comes to mind.

If any of those people were saved and had their names recorded in the Lambs book of life, then they remained saved. But only the Lord knows for sure. Thank you for your response.

Carlos, not much comment by me in reply to yours, as I've written on this aspect elsewhere to you. The only thing to iterate is that, yes, there are many possibilities that come up in the Bible which can make us wonder, even contemplate further, but ultimately, what would those musings lead to? Maybe, many more possibilities. All this may be good exercise for our minds & biblical knowledge, but by putting them into a public 'forum', the reader can only wonder whether those are really worth considering or should be disregarded as extra-biblical drivel. However, Carlos, I at least, think much better things of you & treat you as a brother in Christ & just accept this as your personal musings being 'put out there' to garner thought & response, rather than factual. Some may be wiser than I, in abstaining.

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2. Gen 3:16 tells us that Cain went to dwell in the land of Nod. We're not told whether there was a city or people there. I'm using the same principles as I would for the above comment.

3. The account of Job. Did Satan get God's permission to harm Job? I don't agree from the normal reading of that passage. It states that it was God who initiated the discourse with Satan, asking him, "Where have you been" & "Have a look at my perfect & upright man, Job". Satan questioned Job's uprightness & God said, "all that Job has is in your power, etc". I can't see that Satan got God's permission, why should he, Satan has free rein to influence each of our lives - but God sets the limits. And the same with A & E, no permission received from God. I just can't see how you are viewing these Scriptures; are you seeing something in the Word that I'm blinded to? Maybe, I need a fresh anointing in reading them.

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Carlos, to your points:

1. True, there are somethings to be taken literally & others, not. The examples you cited are great, for they make sense from the natural reading of them. However, in the specific account of creation, if it should not be taken literally (& remembering, all of Scripture hangs on these facts), then almost all subsequent Scripture would have to be modified, or at least, reinterpreted to conform to it. E.g. in your view in another comment: "the possibility that from those that existed at the time, Adam and Eve became the 1st to sin?" I note the word 'possibility', since if there were others that existed before or during the creation of A & E, the further possibility arises as to the possible dual race we could have at present (i.e. descendants from them), that Satan never got to & hence are sinless. Can we presume that such a pure race are walking amongst us now & are therefore never in need of the Cross? So, it is possible that such a situation could exist, but common sense, by considering all of Scripture, tells us that this is impossible & therefore, why unnecessarily muse over such things? So then, isn't wiser to just stay with what the Bible reveals & if it doesn't & raises questions in our minds, then we ought to disregard those thoughts, accepting that the limits of our knowledge have been reached? Yes, there is much we don't know or even understand, but what is clearly revealed should be enough to satisfy us for now.

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Hi Jesse,

They were supposedly onfire people. So onfire that they (1844 incident; known as the Millerite Movement and this day was called The Great Disappointment) quit their jobs and sold their belongings. Didn't you ever hear of this? This is only 14 or so years AFTER pre-trib began being taught. Only God knows if some had a false conversion but I highly doubt they were all false converts. Pastor William Miller was a Baptist preacher.

The Bible does teach that there will be a falling away (apostasy) in the end times. Jesus also gave warnings at the time of the 7 churches of Asia Minor that everyone wants to ignore especially the one where He talks about blotting names out. Here you go. You can reinvent the verse if you want. I am not. It says what it says and plain as day.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It's what Jesus taught. I ignore what most pastors teach when they teach the opposite of what Jesus taught. This is a very clear verse and it is given to people who DID come to Christ and this warning was also given (verse 6) to the other churches. I don't try to reinterpret 'clear' verses. These churches DID exist. They existed in the first two centuries. They are not an extra 7 dispensations on the other 7 to 10 dispensations. Some pre-tribbers actually believe in 14 to 17 dispensations if they add these churches as extra dispensations. It still doesn't change what it says.

Blessings!

Some are already converting to Judaism in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

We had the Emergent Church Movement rise up and really take hold over the last 15 years.

Purpose Driven Movement.

Seeker Friendly Movement.

Just to name a few movements. Got any Pepto Bismol? If there are any more movements, I might need some.

We all need to learn to talk to the Lord in private about whatever concerns us.

Sometimes our inner room becomes our war room as we fight our battles with sin, conflicts, decisions, and difficullties until we fully surrender in obedience to our God!!!

What do we do with our trials, heartaches, and burdens?

Although you try to bear them on your own, Jesus has given us the solution in His passage from His Sermon on the Mount. He says to go into an inner room, close the door, and pray to our Heavenly Father.

We all need to learn how to tslk

Years ago l had a dream how heaven would be. then four of my people l cared for, died within 2 months- all of a sudden. now the days of corvid 99 is here, and only god knows what will be. it will get to be a silent killer of all ages. the start of a ending of people and life we once took for granite. so l wrote this for my 4 people as they waited for the lord to take them- from my dream:

" i had a glimpse of heaven-"

twas in a dream one night-

such splender overwhelmed me-

it was a beautiful sight:

i dreamed i saw the angels-

and heard them sweetly sing-

and saints had gathered all around-

to worship christ the king:

and then i saw my loved ones-

who entered heaven's door-

and they appeared so joyful-

that i hoped to see much more:

and then 1 day- i remembered- what i had dreamed-

for i now stood at heaven's door-

what a beautiful sight to me:

:

This is our real family, not our earthly blood family. That is how Jesus taught it. Always compare what anyone says with the scriptures and never forget the three rules to proper Biblical exegesis- CONTEXT., CONTEXT. CONTEXT. I wish someone had taken me under their wing my first ten years.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

this seems plain that our names can be blotted out of the book of life. If it was already written in, it can be blotted out it seems.

Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Moses pled for the Children of Israel in this instance

Exodus Chapter 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Seems not all names are in the book of life.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I can honestly say that I love everyone in this room. It's like a Real family. You all work very hard to help others understand the scripture and the history. I've been googling and reading there too; although I view it with reservation unless someone with more Bible experience shows it to be accurate. Thanks for your hard work.

Amen. All good brother. Stay in the Word. EAt. Eat. Eat. Pray while eating. I've been in many churches where very little spiritual food was given. Than God we have His Word in our hands today. Never take that lightly. I still don't know why you thought I didn't like or love you. I do. Get the gospel out while we can. I think things are going to get tough.

God Bless!

Bob,

Thanks for that piece of scripture. Part of my question was about a person losing their soul, not falling away from the faith. Is 2 Timothy 2:16-18 talking about someone losing their soul for believing something that is false (after) being born of God's Spirit?

Chris and all.

My take is that Adam and Eve, just like Cain and Abel, were not the only people in existence at the time. Adam and Eve, and this is my personal assumption, were the two people that eventually corrupted after God created man.

God Created mankind, expressed as Adam and Eve. We are told how God created them from the earth. They procreated, as instructed and began to populate the earth. So, WHAT IF, it was at some point in pre-history, that Adam and Eve disobeyed God? (Nothing to do with prehistoric Neanderthals).

The Genesis record says God walked in the Garden with them. Can that mean God was known to mankind, somehow, but not necessarily in person? Is it possible that from those that existed at the time, Adam and Eve became the 1st to sin?

Genesis 1-3 is not a detailed chronology of everything that happened in History. Is it acceptable to believe Adam's age as recorded, is possibly a starting point to history, not an indication of his age since creation? That is, could Adam have lived a thousand years before he ate the fruit?

And could his corruption, leading to disobedience have increased over time? Could it have been initiated by delving into divination and seeking guidance from spiritual beings (Idolatry)?

Eve had to know what it meant to give birth, to feel the pain of childbearing. They had to have experienced death in animals, though not in mankind, to know the meaning of death and an increase of pain. Neither was a foreign concept to them.

Your response on Christ's use of Parables and why He didn't go public after the Resurrection needs more thought.

That is a moving testimony, Mishael. One important thing to keep in mind is that when we study, read and discuss the Bible, we should do it for edification. That is what you are doing. Sometimes people will disagree with our point of view, and that is alright. Take it all in stride. It is all for good. It is important that we talk and share our views. I am learning more now about what I didn't know or thought I knew, than ever. It is all thanks to conversations like this. Thank you.

Chris, your defense of theories you have been taught highlight the issues we deal with.

1. There is no "Free Will". But there is Choice.

2. Adam and Eve did not have the capacity, even with a Free Will, to choose between Good and Evil. How could they? They hadn't eaten of the Fruit that imparted that knowledge. So, did they Choose, on the basis of Free Will, between Good and Evil? Or did they choose, on the basis of free will, to disobey God? What was their Choice? Between Right and Wrong? How could that be, if they didn't know the difference until After they ate the fruit?

3. You haven't answered where the Bible tells us we have a Free Will. I won't tell you where it is found, so you can find it for yourself.

4. Your response that you think we will have Free Will in heaven needs further exploration.

5. You misunderstand. God didn't create man with a flaw or inherent sin. God created man whole. God created man to be what He wanted man to be. God created man perfectly suited to accomplish His purpose and for a body for Christ. But man was created limited in scope and ability. So was everything else. However, man was susceptible to decay, corruption, evil. Just like a perfect sheet of metal left out in the open rusts, man, exposed to the elements, rusted, decayed, sinned.

Let me say it this way. Man was the Victim of the environment he was created in. He was the victim of the limits of creation. But that limit was imposed by God, for His Purpose.

6. Evil did not exist before God or even at the same time as God. Evil is a consequence of creation. Evil does not exist on its own. Evil exists as a deterioration of what exists. Evil is a dependent quality, not a self-sustaining, pre-existent entity.

7. Spirit, body and soul are all programmed by the one that created them.

Chris, sometimes we have to learn to read between the lines.

1. The nature of the account at the Garden of Eden may be taken literally, but if it is, it doesn't entirely square with reality. The Bible says, "Come taste and see that the Lord is good." Is that figurative? Some Christians believe that when you have Communion, you're actually eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus. It's called Transubstantiation. But are we to take the worlds of Jesus, "eat, this is my body, drink this is my blood" literally?

2. The Bible doesn't give us a 'hint' of many things. How old were Adam and Eve when they had Cain? Are we to believe Adam and Eve didn't have any other children before Cain and Abel? Where is the 'hint' there? Yet, we're told that after Cain ran off, he went to another city. What city? There's no mention of people populating the earth prior to that.

3. That the devil was cast to the earth can't be in dispute. The Bible says so. That the devil was in the Garden, is also clear. No question about that.

4. Satan could not ruin God's creation, period. After all, didn't the devil have to ask God's permission to hurt Job in different ways? If Satan could just step in and ruin things, why did he have to ask God for permission to attack Job? Why not just do it? Think about that. Did Satan ask God for permission to tempt Adam and Eve? Did he ask for permission to 'ruin' God's perfect creation? Did he act on his own to tempt Eve and destroy God's creation? Yet, he had to ask God for permission to tempt and ruin Job? But what were the devil's limits and who set them?

Job was a little guy. He had no impact on creation. And the devil had to ask permission? Yet, for something as significant and earth shattering as tempting Adam and Eve, he could just act on his own?

Fact is we have to interlace history and reality, with Biblical Truth. We can't read the Bible without the historical record and come to a proper, realistic, non-fictional interpretation.

Mishael, This is not a football game between equals. God isn't "playing" against Satan. Can Satan be a force for God to contend with? No. It is not as if the devil can just score some points, he might win the game. God has a allowed the devil for a specific reason. The question we have to answer is Why? Why has God allowed the devil to exist? Revelation tells us the devil will be jailed for 1,000 years, if we understand that right, then he will "of necessity" be released. Why is it necessary to jail, release, then destroy the devil? Why doesn't God just destroy him now?

God deals with the devil because it is necessary. In our timeframe it might seem like a long time coming, but however many years we have been around, is really a twinkling of an eye in terms of eternity. That is why Peter tells us that 1,000 years go by as fast for God as a day. Time flies when you are having fun.

God is dealing with certain things to eradicate evil. And this is the process He is following. Christ came to destroy everything the devil represents. He came to end idolatry (making other things greater than God). He came to destroy death. He came to establish eternal perfection. See Daniel 9:24 and others.

ROBERT MARINO, found the site, but won't let me sign in or subscribe without a Google account. So I have included responses here:

Q1: Futurism

Q2: Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib

Q3: Millenium follows Return of Christ

Q4: Over 50

Q5: Evangelical, Pentecostal, Presbyterian

Q6: Debatable

Q7: No

Q8: Yes

Q9: Yes

Q10: Yes

Q11: Yes

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Does the man of sin have a chance of salvation? Perdition means to fall.

Romans Chapter 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

I like your post, Mishael.

Perhaps this is a good moment for churches to reflect on how we will be able to communicate in times of persecution. Perhaps this Pandemic will make us realize that there will be a time when we won't be able to meet publicly. And we will have to learn to use the tools available to us. I don't know anything about the dark web, except that it is virtually untraceable. Will Christians be able to use it to communicate with each other during persecution. Organizations like ISIS are masters at this. They use the dark web to avoid detection. Is there a lesson there for Christians?

Churches have been forced to use Social Media to continue their Sunday and other services. But these sites are easily traced, tracked and censored. During a time of persecution we will have to communicate in a way that avoids detection, to support, encourage and help each other. It seems so silly and incredible that things Jesus told us would happen, are materializing before our eyes. But is the Tribulation Fiction? Clearly not. Christians as suffering persecution and tribulation as we speak. No one can tell them they are not now living the Tribulation. Christians are being persecuted everywhere. But the suffering of some is greater.

What must we do to prepare? Is the dark web a beginning? Perhaps Christians should begin using this tool now. Get a VPN, Download the App TOR and set up a private chat everyone can access.

Many will see this as Fiction and laugh. Others will think it is ridiculous and farfetched. But people all over the world are using it to warn others of impending arrests (Taiwan), to inform (on persecution and Pandemic), to set up meeting places, etc. Does it hurt to build up defenses? How many Pastors see this Pandemic as a threat? How many even believe persecution is possible in Western Developed 'Christian' countries? Their biggest concern is not persecution. It is finances.

What do you think? Please comment. Pros and Con are always a good thing.

Can believe in a false prophecy cause people to lose faith and fall away?

What does the Bible say? 2 Timothy Chapter 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the (RAPTURE) resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

In other words they we being told they missed the rapture and their faith was overthrown.

This happened 1,900 years ago. Could it not happen again?

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Why evangelize if one has been predestined? It could be that as part of that, the Gospel has to be shared; & how will they hear without a preacher? Does the unbeliever even have to respond to the Gospel, since he is already predestined to obtain salvation? Indeed, can he even respond? Even to these questions, I say, Yes, because his response can only be as result of the Spirit's conviction (i.e. in his unsaved condition, he is unable to respond, nor would he want to, but under conviction, he will as he has been predestined by God). Therefore, his response is not of his effort or part in salvation's work, but a 'reaction' to the Spirit's convicting, drawing, & his repentance: and surely this is a place & time worthy of a response.

James, I've said much here, trying to deal with all that I could see in your comment, so I thought "better to say more than less" so you get a more complete picture of what I'm thinking. I hope it answers your questions.

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So, to you other point, I think your main point: "why Jews and Gentiles have to respond to the finished work of JESUS on the cross?" Given your apt quote from Eph 1:4,5, I agree with you without doubt, that God, not only knew us before we were born, but predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. A great portion to remind us of God's Foreknowledge of each of our lives. But how does that Knowledge affect us mere mortals? Do we know who has been predestined & who hasn't? Why are some chosen to Life & others to Death? Do we even need to evangelize?

I think, we carelessly & inadvisedly try to get into God's Mind over this, when in fact, His Omniscience & our finiteness can never allow us to comprehend this 'mystery'. The best I can do is to just know that God knows who will come to Him & that response will be because of various occurrences in that person's life; e.g. parentage, the Gospel preacher, finding a tract to read, in depression stumbling past a Church, seeing a Christian workmate's life & joy, brought into a crisis so that the Light of God can shine, etc. are some things that God uses to accomplish the salvation of that soul. We don't know who has been predestined or not, but we're responsible to share the Gospel regardless.

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Hi James, when we speak of Jesus' finished Work, we refer to His proclamation in His last Breath, "It is finished" ( Jn 19:30). What did He mean by this? Of course, in a few words, it means that His Work that the Father had sent Him to do, was now fully complete.

Then your question: "Can you add to something that's finished? Did JESUS offer us anything by way of an option?" Simply said, No. No one can add anything to what Jesus accomplished through His Sacrifice. Sadly, many believers have tried to add more to this Work, whether to add more burden to Christians, or in their failure to understand the full significance of the Gift of Grace to us. So they put many conditions to make their salvation 'more secure': keeping part or all of the Law, necessity for observance of the Ordinances, failure to regularly evangelize, denying ourselves comfort, speaking in other tongues, tithing, are some of things that quickly come to mind.

When we speak of Salvation by Grace through Faith ( Eph 2:8-10), the Bible says that it can only be by simple faith in Christ's Sacrifice & absolutely nothing else. If anything, but anything would be added to faith, then it is no longer of faith but faith + works = no salvation. Anyone practising this has in reality annulled salvation, saying, "I don't trust that this Salvation only can save me, I have to add to it, just for good measure". That belief is out of the pit of Hell. Therefore, Jesus rightly has not required anything extra from us to make our salvation 'more secure'; He has done it all.

Carlos, since you addressed your recent comment to 'Everyone else', I thought to reply.

"Archaeological records do show pre-historic people were religious". I think you're implying that there were humans/humanoids prior to Adam & Eve, if I am reading that paragraph correctly. So I can't comment on this, because of my different understanding of the Genesis account.

"Why is it Christ only showed Himself to a select group, after His Resurrection? Why not go public? Why didn't anyone recognize Him?" He had a short time between His Resurrection & His Ascension & needed to spend it with His disciples, if for nothing else, to convince them that it was indeed Him ( Lk 24). I wonder then, how would the public have reacted to His reappearance? Also with disbelief? A madman? Why bother with them, His disciples were His sole Focus at this interim period & to also be there to see His Ascension.

"Why did God speak in Parables and not plainly?" I don't believe the answer you gave is correct. Jesus qualified His use of parables in Mt 13:10,11, that He would explain the parables to His disciples, but they would just be stories to the rest.

"Satan enticed Adam and Eve by appealing to their curiosity about things they didn't know about God and the universe." That's not how I read it. Adam & Eve didn't express curiosity about God or the universe. They were simply enjoying their being & God's creation around them. Satan came to put a doubt in their mind ( Gen 3:1); they retorted correctly; Satan then gave them his convincing reason that they wouldn't die, but would make them 'wise'; they were convinced.

Thanks again Carlos, as I said, I only reply as you've sent your comment to all of us. And knowing the points that we disagree on, I feel that comment is required, not just as an 'attack' on your views, but to present what I believe is the correct, logical argument against it.